Fair Play Points

Slaphappy · Post by **Slaphappy** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 12:34 am

D6

Bantam A 8 possible 3 awarded
Bantam B1 14 possible 7 awarded
Pee Wee A 16 possible 5 awarded
Pee Wee B1 24 possible 17 awarded

Are the ref's going overboard?
Enforcing the already established rules is one thing, creating new penalties is another.

my2cents · Post by **my2cents** » Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:49 pm

Interesting stuff from D6. I think historically, D6 has had a tighter called game and now even more so (as expected). Our team has had games with 4 to 5 penalties per team all the way up to 15 per team. So far, it seems to be one or the other (which I find strange). Either a well played game or a game totally lacking in 5 on 5 play.

The key will be for the coaches to teach solid hockey fundamentals and keep the kids playing aggressive but clean.

I think that it will get better by midseason and we will get a better game in the long run.

IM4U2C · Post by **IM4U2C** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:34 am

Do fair play points mean anything if the district winners do not get an auto bid into regions?

ice00breaker · Post by **ice00breaker** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:16 pm

Not really just you get a better seed in playoffs

leigred13 · Post by **leigred13** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:02 pm

these are basically basketball and queer points they really mean nothing so there could have been a horrid ref and called every thing he saw and it was light this rule is just pointless

whockeyguy · Post by **whockeyguy** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 8:43 pm

here we go again, another year of these so called fair play points, Hey Elliot , nobody likes them except Mn Hockey and thats a money issue, LETS CAN this now so another year is not wasted with this JUNK.... these points do not mean a bleepin thing especially this year with the new rule enforcement,,, the game was invented with the theory of most goals win, PERIOD. This game should not be disturbed by some feel good phsycologist from the Mayo Clinic,, and the dollars they give a sucker organization

blueblood · Post by **blueblood** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 11:09 am

D6 BB1 update - 10 of 24 earned.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 4:09 pm

There are a lot of people enamored with the FP points.

I tried to explain it to about 24 people how they are not fair for a lot of reasons, but no one caught on.

Example:
Wins Losses After Fair play
Team #1 13 1 1
Team #2 12 2 2
Team #3 11 3 (split with Team #1) 4
Team #4 9 4 3

Four best teams based on win - loss and just about everyone agrees 1 to 4 is correct.
BUT ...
After Fair Play Team #3 moves down, so yes they get punished, tougher first game, tougher semi game. Team #2 benefits easier semi game. Team #1 (the team we want to punish the least) is punished by having a tougher semi final game then they should because of Fair Play points. (Now play team #3 instead of team #4)
And Team #1 won all their fair play points.

SOMETHING IS WRONG!!!!!!!

WHOCKEYGUY - apparently I (or with justa couple of other guys) alone (board members) believe hockey is about the final outcome on the scoreboard. Trying to legislate 'nice' behavior does not work.

whockeyguy · Post by **whockeyguy** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 7:03 pm

at least somebody gets it here, I at least know there is somebody with common sense out there,, maybe those intelligent board members should get out and talk to the people and watch abit,. I know they have their feel good meetings at the beginning of each year but we get this crap rammed down again and what is the purpose,,, i woulld like to see aech district come up with a survey and come back to great ones from Mn Hockey , just maybe, they might get it,,, Keep up the battle, you got a lot of support out in the real world...

greybeard58 · Post by **greybeard58** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 8:14 pm

The problem to make a change is that the District Directors like Mr. Elliott are the ones that have to enforce all the rules passed by the MH Board and to change the rules, all 12 District Directors have to agree and then they are still 3 votes short of a simple majority and many more if a 2/3 vote is needed.

stud-lee · Post by **stud-lee** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 10:46 pm

I would jsut like to point something out,

I am an official and no one is creating new penalties USA hockey has just said that they want to have certain infractions called every time they happen so there is no "gray area" if it's a hook it's a hook there is no more "well it didn't really affect him" the guy was hooked him so it's a hook. Personally I like the new enforcement. It gives the smarter and more skilled players the ability to play the game the way that they can and for those players that can't adjust too bad.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 10:37 am

Stud
I agree with you.

I think the new enforcement of the old rules will soon be a non-issue. The bantams may have more problems with it this year becasue they have played under the old system longer.
But the pee wee and bantam games I have seen there have not been a lot of penalties because of the new enforcement rule. Surprisingly a lot of boarding calls that were penalties in the past.

skillbuilder · Post by **skillbuilder** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 10:50 am

Slap happy has a point. I am also a USAH ref and I am seeing other officials calling penalties now for hard clean hits as if checking is now being frowned upon. Granted my kid is a B peewee and they seem to let less go there compared to A peewee but the rule changes for lazy penalties seems to have affected a few officials in more areas than what was intended.

SLP/SW Coach · Post by **SLP/SW Coach** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 11:11 am

Here is an "update" to some FPP stats.

Peewee A
District 1: 16 FPP earned out of a possible 30 (53%)
District 3: 38 FPP earned out of a possible 52 (73%)

Based on these 2 sections, I think it is a safe assumption that at about the mid-way point of the season that Peewee A level teams earn their FPP at about a 66% clip (2 out of 3 times).

Does anyone else have any data from other Districts?
Is it Different for say, Bantam A, B or Peewee B levels?
I guess, I'm not sure.....

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 12:11 pm

D16
BA
20 with 11 earned 55%

PA
24 with 19 earned 79%

BB
52 with 43 earned 83%

PWB
52 with 48 earned 92%

southernfool · Post by **southernfool** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 12:14 pm

The biggest problem is not the rules but the 'judgement call' that refs are making when on the ice. The new enforcement has allowed refs to have games where they call 20-30 penalties and other games where similar infractions occur where they call 7-10. I have witnessed this in several games including the same 'ref crew' having a huge change in the way they called two games. The judgment call has created a situation where a hard clean check that makes a lot of noise on the boards is boarding. One refs 'boarding' is another refs 'check from behind' etc..

I'm not going to beat this dead horse any more because I don't think it will change. I am not asking for the refs to let things go we just need more consistency between refs across the state and individual refs within districts.

The fact that FPP are part of the standings is the thing that needs to change. Playing shorthanded because of penalties is punishment enough without also costing teams their legitimate place in the standings based on their real record. The creators of the game of hockey set it up that way and to add additional punishment puts way to much in the refs hands. Maybe we could have the first tiebreaker be total penalties at the end of the season or some other lessor effect.

Stealth · Post by **Stealth** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 2:11 pm

Went to some district web pages and found Bantam A date below.
BA - 10
88 payed with 58 earned = 65%
BA - 5
84 played with 54 earned = 64%
BA - 3
28 played with 18 earned = 75%
BA - 4 East
28 played with 26 earned = 92%
BA - 4 West
46 played with 39 earned = 84%
BA - 8
114 played with 79 earned = 69%

southernfool · Post by **southernfool** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:07 pm

Add District 6 to your list:

80 games played 46 earned = 57.5%

You begin to see the problem. Even this rather simple study shows that you have a range of 57.5 - 92% depending on the district you are in. Do you really believe that the players in D6 are that much worse at penalties then in D4 East or do you think that there is that much difference in how things are called?

How are players suppose to learn how to play the game when they are worried about how the ref is going to call things that day?

Again, I don't want to stop the rule because I don't think it will be stopped. But I do think we can stop using the FPP as an additional penalty ON TOP of playing shorthanded in the 1st place by using it in standings the way it currently is being used.

Stealth · Post by **Stealth** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 9:10 am

Do you ever hear of a minor offical (parents) not keeping the books correct in the box to give the home team there FPP?

That would be cheesy!

lxhockey · Post by **lxhockey** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 10:59 am

I witnessed that a couple times last year. In fact where I saw it happening was on coincidental penalties. The visiting team's player would be on the sheet, but not the home team. It did make the difference at the end of the game also in whether or not the FPP was awarded. The home team should not have gotten it, but because of the lack of recording a penalty they did indeed get awarded the point.

lxhockey · Post by **lxhockey** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 11:03 am

To rephrase that last post, as the home team usually operates the clock,
the team who is keeping the score sheet needs to be checked by the team that is operating the clock.

Stealth · Post by **Stealth** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 11:38 am

Both teams are in the scoring area?

skillbuilder · Post by **skillbuilder** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 11:45 am

This brings us all the way back to lost issue which is developing skills. As a ref I know we have the puck dead 25% of each hour or more and in District 2 where my kid plays they have 11 minute stop time periods. He plays 11 minutes, touches the puck for about one minute of it, makes three or four passes gets 2 or 3 shots hits a couple of kids and the games over. The new rules promote skill and skills are built in practices. The 94 AAA team I coach off season is heavy with skill development with 1/2 our ice is practice ice. We have good content and the kids have fun with it. They get lots of touches, skating, and hitting in every hour. Lets focus on development not the games. Skills are not created through wins and losses or fair play points.

lxhockey · Post by **lxhockey** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 12:22 pm

In D6 the home team operates the clock and the visiting team keeps the scoresheet. However, we have run into teams that do not want to run the clock (even though they are suppose to) and that should have been a red flag to make sure they are keeping the score sheet properly.

Not sure what is customary in other districts, but with the emphasis on good record keeping in order to earn the FPP, I would recommend to always have someone from both teams supervising that scoresheet.

tomASS · Post by **tomASS** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 10:41 pm

Lou Nanne was on KFAN recently blasting the new rule interpretations at the youth level saying it was one of the worst things that could be happening to youth hockey.

Guess a coach should only work on special teams in practice since they account for so much of the game now

When did the points become known as Fair Play Points?

I always refered to them as Barney Points....my bad

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