Cheap Players

gopherdad64 · Post by **gopherdad64** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:16 pm

Does anyone know if he's plays high school next year or if he's a bantam again? Sounds like probably high school.

bugsy · Post by **bugsy** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 7:30 am

Talmedge...Make the cut... not a chance.

RLStars · Post by **RLStars** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 8:25 am

Bugsy Which D4 player got hurt when they took a run at a D5 forward who ducked near the D5 players bench?

nickel slots · Post by **nickel slots** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 8:30 am

1. Maybe he's not the cheapest player out there, but he does play very physical... out of necessity. He doesn't have the skillset to do anything else. 2. If he makes the next level, Minnesota Hockey will make this whole thing into a complete mockery. 3. Gopherdad - are you Mr. Talmadge? 4. Wrister - You are on crack. The D4 team alone has at least 3 defensmen that are more effective than him... and let's face it, they didn't have the best defensive corps in the tournament. The Stanley kid from Albert Lea is a forward, but because the Gustafson kid from Mankato was injured, they moved him back to D... and he was a better than Talmadge. 5. I agree with Bugsy.

gopherdad64 · Post by **gopherdad64** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 9:05 am

1. My only son is 27 yrs. old. I'm not Talmadge's dad. 2. My son never had the "skillset" as you call it to make and Advanced 15, 16, 17 or anything else team. 3. My son is a better hockey player than I ever was.

bugsy · Post by **bugsy** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 9:27 am

Not sure.

gopherdad64 · Post by **gopherdad64** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 9:46 am

Oh, I guess I forgot to mention: My son currently plays in the UHL. He has played in several professional leagues, including 3 short stints in the NHL. He still doesn't have the fancy "skillset" to play with the finesse players. That's the funny thing about hockey. Their are a lot of different roles to fill. What we see today is almost every player comes out of the same "cookie cutter" mold. This is not always a good thing. It makes player selection very difficult and leaves professional level coaches scratching their heads trying to figure out how they can change players to adapt to a role that they've never played, but yet is necessary to the success of the team. My son and myself were never great hockey players. But, we study the game. Someday my son will be a great coach. Never a great hockey player. But, he has had more success than many of you will have. He has had more success than thousands of others with your cherished "skillset". His success came from understanding his limitations, finding his role, and playing with what he had to offer. Sounds a lot like this Talmadge kid. A couple other things I forgot to mention: I played 9 seasons in the NHL. If you come to St. Cloud, look closely. I'll be the one with the Stanley Cup ring on my right hand. Just don't ask me to take it off and show it to you. It won't hardly come off because my hands are so roughed up from my playing career. You see, I spent my entire career using my left hand to grab snot-nosed kids like you by the sweater then put my right hand right through the face of your precious little skillset. Funny thing how quickly that "skillset" of yours disappears after you just had the trainer sew up your face. No, I am coming to St. Cloud on business. I want to see Talmadge because I currently scout for a USHL team. He just may have all of the limitations that you criticize him for, but with the right coaching and hard work those can be overcame. He obviously has something different too. Something you don't have. I don't have to drive 320 miles to find a finesse forward. I can drive 20 miles to accomplish that right here at home. Unless you're something really special, your "skillset" is a dime a dozen. One last thing.......I'll bet 99% of you wouldn't skate within a New York block of Talmadge without that cage on your face.

gopherdad64 · Post by **gopherdad64** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 10:03 am

Sorry for the long post. Didn't realize it got so long. I just wanted you kids to take a piece of advice. Unless you were one of the top 2 kids in your district...find a niche. That's where your success will be.

Pucknutz69 · Post by **Pucknutz69** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 11:13 am

Awesome, loved it. I will print it and shove it in the face of the"Skillset" gurus we have in our town. You know the coaches that talk about how much they want to develop the kids skill, yet none of them know how to play the game or getdirty in a corner because they were taught how to cycle and drop pass in stead of how to pin a guy or fight for a puck in the corner. I am getting away from the topic but Thanks for grabbing a few by the nose for us.

Big Gopher Fan · Post by **Big Gopher Fan** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 12:14 pm

Love the post Gopherdad. Very insightful if you are who you say you are. It seems to me that all these fair play points and Minnesota nice style of play are only good things if you don't plan on playing anywhere outside of Minnesota. I'm not advocating goon hockey but when I see how the game is played at the youth level in other parts of the country and Canada it does make me wonder if we're preparing our kids well enough for the next level.

Pucknutz69 · Post by **Pucknutz69** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 12:22 pm

If a player is going to only have control/ poscession of the puck for 15 sec in a 60 minute game why do we spend hours of practice working for those 15 seconds? Why not worry about the other 59 min 45 seconds?

joshdog · Post by **joshdog** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 12:23 pm

WOW, too much coffee?. You are either very humble or a tad bit disillusional. If you played 9 season's in the Big Show and drank from the Cup then you were very good. There are a ton of kid's that still play the game the way you are referring to, the differance is that in today's game they have to be able to do more. Your fine description of the way you played and what you would do doesn't cut it in youth hockey today. Fighting in youth hockey bring's on much larger penalties in today's game. Yes, the facemask has brought some negatives to the game, but it is mandatory so don't group everybody that play's with one together. Personally, I think the instigator penalty has damaged the sport more than the facemask.

nickel slots · Post by **nickel slots** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 1:51 pm

gopherdad, You were a fighter. I'll play the role of the instigator. It'll be good reading for everybody. This thread (thus far) has been about two subjects.... 1. Cheap Players? (I actually defended him if you would read it carefully)... and... 2. Will he make it to the next level? I don't know... there were lots of good defensemen at the festival - many that were more effective than he. It's too bad that this whole topic exists. I couldn't imagine the pressure the kid feels now. Or... maybe he thrives on it...? Either way, I'm not sure how that equates to you "grabbing me by the sweater and putting your right hand through my face," but I'm sure the front office of whatever USHL affiliation you're with couldn't be more proud of your analogy. (On a side note, NHL fighters defend their profession by saying that the enforcers are needed in today's game to protect the skill players, and that their behaviour doesn't carry over into their everyday life. Hmmmm). So, to take it one step further... without the skill players, there's no need for the fighters. You can thank the skill players that you protected for your entire livelihood. Do I think there's a place for fighting? Of course. It's good entertainment. The human nature loves to see confrontation. But all by itself it doesn't work. You don't have to look any further than the NHL of the late '90s and early '00s to see that. The clutch and grab style that the NHL had become was not conducive to entertaining hockey. Fans walked away, ratings sank, franchises bombed, and the game stunk. Thank God that the governing body of the NHL saw that and took action to correct it. As far as my post, I just tried to offer some new information. Everybody on here knows that hard work and determination are the backbone to every kid that makes it to the pro levels. And it's common knowledge that every "skillset" player has had his face sewn up at some point in time because one of the less-gifted players couldn't do anything else to stop him. Yet, there's an unwritten code that the goons don't fight the skill players. And the world still turns. You have to take everything that's said on here with a grain of salt. Until you see things with your own eyes, it's all gibberish. Dip into that fat NHL pension of yours and go see the kid play for yourself. I would be curious to hear your "professional" assessment. And for you kids out there.... Even though I'm not an ex-NHLer, I can tell you that you should keep honing those skills. ALL OF THEM! Chances are that if and when you reach the promised land, your role is going to fluctuate, and you'd better be a well rounded player (see; skilled) or you're going to get lost in the shuffle. Even if you are a 100 point scorer in MN high school hockey (or junior hockey if you go that route), the chances are overwhelmingly against you that you will play that role in the next level.

bugsy · Post by **bugsy** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 2:25 pm

WOW, I can't wait for gopherdads response to nickel slots. This is one of the more entertaining topics on this forum that I have read.

2AhockeyOldTimer · Post by **2AhockeyOldTimer** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 3:16 pm

How does Talmadge compare with a kid like Nate Schmidt...who has the "skillset" and the "knuckles"? Taylor Mattson-The Next Non-Mr. Hockey

nickel slots · Post by **nickel slots** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 3:53 pm

It's like comparing a defenseman on a varsity team that won it's conference to a defenseman on a team that finished dead last in arguably the weakest A bantam district in the state. Which is precisely the point I'm trying to make. The kid works hard, he plays physical, and he's an okay defenseman. It's just that there are so many out there that deserve the trip to St. Cloud before he does.

gopherdad64 · Post by **gopherdad64** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 5:00 pm

OK, NickelSlots I will tip my hand. Two years ago I went to a tournament in Dallas to watch a team from Belarus play. While waiting for the game, I was watching a team that had obviously been placed in the wrong division struggle with a superior opponent. Then this kid came onto the ice and all hell broke loose. Within 5 minutes all the other team cared about was trying to get at this kid. Even parents were screaming obscenities at him. The game ended in a 1-1 tie. Without this kid, the score would have been at least 6-1. You guessed it....the name on the back of the jersey was Talmadge. Last month I saw him play at the Tri-State Select tryouts in Des Moines. He was picked as an alternate. I have it on good authority that he was not chosen because he fought during the tryout sessions. You asked what I think of him: (1 being the lowest; 6 being the highest) Moving the Puck/Playmaking 4 Point Play 4 Net Play 6 Neutral Ice Play 3 Board Play 5 Concentration 4 Mental Toughness 6 Drive 5 Hockey Sense 4 Stamina 3 Leadership 3 Toughness 6 Aggressiveness 6 Skating Forward 3 Skating Backward 5 Skating Mobility 3 Puck Control 2 Shooting 4 Passing 5 Checking 6

soup3 · Post by **soup3** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 5:20 pm

from that evaluation sounds like a goon to me? shooting is decent and just checking. not much skating/stamina or puck control. for a D hockey sense is a key attribute. is he playing bantams next year? if so i will be intersested to see what happens when i play him<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D"> <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/pimp.gif ALT=":hat"> <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)"> <hr />I am the souperstar.

gopherdad64 · Post by **gopherdad64** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 5:23 pm

I do agree with a lot of what you say. All players should continue to work on every skill. The goal at this age is to play as long as you possibly can. The more skills you have, the greater your chance of advancement. But, that doesn't mean that you can't find the one thing that you do best and exploit it to the fullest. Start trying to recognize what you're best at and what you can do to maximize this advantage for yourself and your team. A lot of times this requires a symbiotic relationship with another player. Try to find that player that, when you play together, you both play at a higher level. What I disagree with: Fighting/Physical play is an integral part of the game. So is finesse play. It is not a contest between the groups. It is a result of the evolution of this great sport over many decades. We could debate this for a long time, but it is off topic. One last thing.....my USHL franchise knew what they were getting when they hired me. I'm not in PR. I evaluate players and speak my mind.

gopherdad64 · Post by **gopherdad64** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 5:42 pm

What you should note is that in the evaluation there are 6 areas that cannot be overcome through coaching/training/hard work. These areas are: Concentration, Mental Toughness, Drive, Leadership, Toughness, and Aggressiveness. I'll take any kid who scores like this, but has unrefined hockey skills. We can fix the other things. No one will ever be able to give you these qualities that this kid already possesses.

nickel slots · Post by **nickel slots** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 6:36 pm

I agree with gopherdad that physical play and even fighting (at the appropriate levels) are an integral part of the game. Even at the younger levels, the kids love to rough house around the net when their goalie takes a shot from the opposition. And there is nothing that builds a team like the comraderie that is formed when teammates get to build alliances against a worthy foe. It's apparent from mites all the way through the highest levels of hockey. The sport is definitely built around it. All sports are, really. And I will also agree with you that sometimes these types of players are the consummate team players. More so in hockey than any other team sport. Every team has and needs players like this. It promotes chemistry, and we all know that a little bit of chemistry goes a loooong ways in team sports. But there are also instances where these players tear teams apart. When there is fighting between teams, chemistry is born. When there is fighting within a team, chemistry is more difficult to achieve. Sometimes it's a fine line. More than a few alpha males in a small area can be hairy. I am very impressed with the thoroughness of your evaluation... it would be nice if there would be such a format for programs such as the Advanced 15s, 16s, and 17s... heck, even for association and high school tryouts. I also think it's admirable in this day and age of PC that you speak your mind. With your background, we could all use some of your unfiltered insight. Now, back to the meat and potatoes... and I think the kid in question would be the first to admit it. He's a hard worker, he's aggressive, he has mental toughness, etc. (and he obviously has cajones the size of grapefruit). The only problem is that there are GOBS of kids in the state of hockey that have all that. And they don't all get the opportunities that they might deserve... whether it's because of politics or logistics is moot... Plain and simple, they can only take so many kids to the camp in St. Cloud. Maybe he'll be one of them. I would be willing to bet there were 20 defensemen in the festival last weekend that would have a scorecard like the one you have, but would also have the 'skills' we've been talking about to separate themselves from the pack. Sure, there could be more if they all had some good coaching. But there literally aren't enough coaches to go around to instill the rest of the qualities into all the players that have the heart to succeed. Even if there were, they're always going to have to draw the line in the sand somewhere. There are some people that are near and dear to me that are dying to find out if they'll get the nod... it's hard for them all to accept the decisions that have to be made. This is way too long. I have got to get a life.

joshdog · Post by **joshdog** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 7:32 pm

This has been some of the best hockey dialogue this youth site has ever seen, now I have to ask the question. Did this kid play bantam's last year or did he make the jump to high school? If he played bantam's, I don't even recall his name when Albert Lea played them. I don't remember any "cheap" kid's on Faribault's team or any "above the call of duty" physical player's. No disrespect intended but I just don't remember anyone there that deserved the St. Cloud trip.

hockeylife04 · Post by **hockeylife04** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 8:19 pm

seriously please get off this subject people. it's part of the game get over it. like you are honestly "evaluating" who the 'cheapest player' is, come on really. hockey isn't for 'playing nice' and if you don't realize that by no good luck playing in the future

kchockeydude22 · Post by **kchockeydude22** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 9:30 pm

Hello Everyone, This forum has recently came to my attention. Thank you for your interest in my son. However, it's getting to be a little much. Please remember that you are discussing a 14 yr. old kid in a public forum. Brutal honesty on a daily basis might not be the best thing for a kid this age. I'm sure the adults on this forum know what I mean. I don't know where my son's hockey career will or won't take him, but I do know that he's still just a kid having fun. I recognize that his play may, at times, be unconventional. I am well aware that he is not an angel and I'm sorry if he has offended anyone. However, I don't feel that it's necessary that his play be dissected in a public forum. I will answer a few of your questions then, hopefully, you can move on to a new topic that is equally interesting. We moved to Faribault from Kansas City in late January. So, Joshdog my son never played against you. David was a 1st year bantam last year. Soup, you will have your curiosity satisfied next year. As far as St. Cloud is concerned, it doesn't make a hill of beans to us whether or not he is selected. David is leaving in mid-May to play in the Czech Republic for 3 months and visit with his grandparents. He will NOT be going to St. Cloud even if selected. Gopherdad, thank you for your support (I think). Now we all, and I do mean ALL, know exactly where my son stands. Once again, thanks for your interest. I hope you find the next topic of discussion equally interesting. Sincerely, Rick Talmadge PS--For those who feel it necessary to call our home. PLEASE STOP.

gopherdad64 · Post by **gopherdad64** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 10:04 pm

Mr. Talmadge....I would like to extend my apologies to you and your family. My behavior has been inappropriate. I think very highly of your son and would never intentionally do anything to cause your family discomfort. Please accept my humble apology.

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