keegan iverson and paul bittner and mac caruth

[scorekeeper]

It's a pretty big assumption to think kids will come home and gain acceptance to a school like Michigan or Minnesota, not to mention the Ivy League. The value of an education from an institution like Yale simply cant be overstated. There are some things about the college route that the CHL just cannot offer. I believe both systems work but one attracts more elite players than the other.

I agree. An Ivy League education can't be overstated. If you are smart enough to go to Harvard thats a tough one to turn down. It's probably harder to get into Harvard or Yale than it is to get into the NHL - and those kids would likely be taking a pay cut to come to the NHL.

There is a guy on Portland - Chase De Leo, who is smart enough to go to any Ivy League school, but he still chose the WHL, so different strokes even amongst the academically elite.

As far as Michigan and Minnesota go, they are no more difficult to get in than McGill, University of Toronto, University of Alberta and those schools are stocked with WHL players. The CHL teams have been very accountable in their duties to get kids ready to capitalize on these scholarships.

[Tigers33]

Bruins...First of all most college teams roster 26-27. Not 30! Stop exaggerating. Second of all, I looked at a handful of CHL rosters and most had between 23-26 on their roster. Pretty similar.

Someone also stated that less then half the college players that go pro stay all 4 years...I am sure that is accurate but I said a majority stay 3-4 years.

Each country has their own pride in its own country. Whats wrong with that? I would bet 90% of canadians will stand by the junior route, and same can be said for Americans standing by the NCAA route.

The thing is if you compare CHL to high school its a no brainer of course. However, if a kid is good enough for the CHL from Minnesota then the kid has the chance to play in more then just the high school league. I would guess with a before/after high school path or the elite league, a kid could play close to 60+ games. Iverson and Bittner played in 47 and 45 games this season. Not sure why that is so low compared to others. Plus they played 17 and 19 games in the playoffs. Both could have played more had they done the ushl/elite league before high school, then high school, then the ushl after.

The worst thing about this argument is it's all a person's opinion. I still stand by the FACTS that 9/10 from america will pick ncaa. If from Canada I bet 9/10 pick major juniors. So lets end the argument on this thread and then someone can start a new thread on the same topic next month

[Tigers33]

Vancouver apparently had 15 players from college play for them this year. While Pittsburgh and Chicago both had 12 players that played college.

There was an interesting article in the montreal gazette that I got this information from. If they have an article on this subject it must be a little worrisome to some canadians.

It said there was 31% two years and 29.4% this year. Both numbers are way up from 10 years ago.

I still stand by the fact both path's are fine way to get to the NHL. There is no chance my 16 year old kid would ever be allowed to move to Canada to play hockey

USA!!!

[MrBoDangles]

Please explain at what point a CHL kid loses the rights to his earned scholarship money?

Kinda seems that the CHL is banking on most of the kids losing what they earned with only 30% getting a degree...?

Thanks in advance.

[keepyourheadup]

I think you missed my point on the chance to attend certain Universities. I'm quite certain the schools you mentioned are very good and compare quite well to the top schools in the US. My point is its extremely difficult for a kid from Minnesota to get accepted at Michigan, Penn State and Wisconsin. The chances of getting in to Notre Dame or an Ivy league school are even less, mind you I'm talking about any kid not just hockey players. Yes, getting in at St. Cloud, Mankato or North Dakota is easier but its not a sure thing. I can speak from personal experience that athletes are held to a lower standard at some of the finest institutions. Hockey players who score a 27 on the ACT get in to Yale and Harvard while a kid off the street needs a 35 just to get looked at and chances are that won't get it done. I know kids who are wait listed in Minnesota that scored 28 and couldn't get in to their home state school. At Michigan its almost impossible to get accepted if its not your home state. These are once in a lifetime chances for kids and it it should be extremely difficult to pass up. The CHL, no matter how committed they are to education, simply can't offer that to a kid from the US.

When it comes to hockey I'll say it again, its really pointless to argue there is a better way to the NHL than the CHL. When it comes to academics I'll stick with the NCAA route .

[Lazy Scout]

http://hockeyfamilyadvisor.com/northern ... l-vs-ncaa/

This article lays both sides out. To read this from start to finish and not believe this is 100% accurate is to be in complete denial.

Of course Canada produces more NHL players, culturally hockey is a way of life there. Sorry but the majority of the US does not see hockey in the same way as Canada. Sure, Minnesota it may be a way of life but try going to Arkansas, Mississippi, West Virginia, etc and the majority of the people in this country don't know anything about the game.

Scorekeeper has most of his "facts" right from the WHL webpage. Anything can look quite appealing on paper with some good marketing.

[Tigers33]

Great article! Really lays out both sides. Another thing to think about is this...we had a personal friend drafted. He mentioned to his that if he signed with them that they would pay for him to go back and complete his degree later.

I didn't get the details and if there was a catch to that. Others might know if this is accurate.

[MNHockeyFan]

I think you missed my point on the chance to attend certain Universities. I'm quite certain the schools you mentioned are very good and compare quite well to the top schools in the US. My point is its extremely difficult for a kid from Minnesota to get accepted at Michigan, Penn State and Wisconsin. The chances of getting in to Notre Dame or an Ivy league school are even less, mind you I'm talking about any kid not just hockey players. Yes, getting in at St. Cloud, Mankato or North Dakota is easier but its not a sure thing. I can speak from personal experience that athletes are held to a lower standard at some of the finest institutions. Hockey players who score a 27 on the ACT get in to Yale and Harvard while a kid off the street needs a 35 just to get looked at and chances are that won't get it done. I know kids who are wait listed in Minnesota that scored 28 and couldn't get in to their home state school. At Michigan its almost impossible to get accepted if its not your home state.

From personal experience (daughter - no athletic scholarships involved) I have to disagree somewhat. She originally was wait-listed at the U of M but was accepted right away to both the University of Michigan and Wisconsin. Otherwise I agree that getting into SCSU, Minnesota State or UND would be easier than these three and that getting into any Ivy (or Notre Dame) would be more difficult. But a D1-level hockey player who scores a 27 on his ACT better have very good grades to get into an Ivy or Notre Dame. A mediocre test score combined with mediocre grades is not going to cut it.

[scorekeeper]

Please explain at what point a CHL kid loses the rights to his earned scholarship money?

Kinda seems that the CHL is banking on most of the kids losing what they earned with only 30% getting a degree...?

Thanks in advance.

Players have up to 18 months after their WHL eligibility expires to utilize scholarships. This gives those that haven't already secured a roster spot on a pro team ample time to do so. So, a kid can be 22 when he begins college if he wants to wait that long. He can use it at any time, so if he wants to loeave at 18 and go to school, he can as well.

Does the NCAA offer that type of flexibility?

[scorekeeper]

When it comes to hockey I'll say it again, its really pointless to argue there is a better way to the NHL than the CHL. When it comes to academics I'll stick with the NCAA route .

A kid banking on a quality education from NCAA hockey beware ...

There are only 3-5 D1 schools offering athletic scholarships ranked in the top 100 Universities world wide.

If your offer comes from the 46 schools not thought that highly of, you have a whole new dilemma on your plate.

CHL kids can just pick from any school and apply their funds - most of which are covered completely.

[Tigers33]

Scorekeeper - how many kids would give up their dreams of playing in the NHL after two seasons of Ahl or echl? I bet not many. So that's when they have to decide if they want their education package. Seems like a pretty big catch there. Agreed?

Also it states that your amount of money you can receive is based on a university closest to where you live. Is that accurate? If so many people that defend the CHL continue to use the word ANY university when that's not necessarily true.

Can we just come to an agreement??? Hockey wise CHL is better...education wise the NCAA is better.

Everyone uses 27 as the number for players on a college roster and only 18 scholarships. Well that can be cut to 26 cause the 3rd goalie is a walk on. Typically another 3-4 players are also walk on's. I know Christian horn is a walk on for the u of m. I would guess Jared Larson also is a walk on. So the number gets down to about 22 players for 18 scholarships.

[The Exiled One]

Drew LeBlanc has a teaching degree, a Hobey Baker Award, a WCHA POTY Award, a WCHA Student-Athlete of the Year Award, a 1st team All-American selection, a Sports Illustrated College Athlete of the Year nomination, a NCAA Regional Championship, an IIHF World Championship bronze medal, a MacNaughton Cup, a MN State High School Championship, and two NHL games under his belt. He is 23 years old.

If only Drew could turn the clock back 7 years and make the "right" choice to play in the WHL...

[keepyourheadup]

I have listened and respect your opinion on this but really, world wide? , for arguments sake lets at least narrow our focus to North America.

Harvard
Yale
Princeton
Dartmouth
Brown
Cornell
Norte Dame
Denver

That's just off the top of my head. Most of us parents would love to be concerned about the quality of these institutions. A kid likely needs to be in the top 5 % nationally to be accepted at any of these schools. A b average ain't cuttin it, unless you are an athlete. I accept the advantages you've stated about the CHL, to dismiss the unique advantages offered by some NCAA schools is just denial.

[scorekeeper]

Scorekeeper - how many kids would give up their dreams of playing in the NHL after two seasons of Ahl or echl? I bet not many. So that's when they have to decide if they want their education package. Seems like a pretty big catch there. Agreed?

No. Not agreed.

The discussion starts surrounding 15 and 16 year old kids and the NCAA purists insist you are limiting options by going the WHL route, but this is upside down thinking and a complete 180 from the truth.

Minnesota kids are lucky as they fall in the WHL boundary and the WHL scholarship is the best by far of the 3 CHL leagues.

WHL players get the best of both worlds, playing in the worlds #1 development league which provides a better than 2:1 ratio of achieving the dream than they would get in the NCAA. A 16 year old kid who is good enough to play in the WHL can also bank on a 4-5 year college degree and another 2 -3 years college education while with the team, generating a full 7 years minimum of college education if he wants. Further, he gets his choice of schools and is not limited to which D1 school may or may not make him an offer. Further, his parents are off the hook completely financially unless they choose to send him to Harvard or Yale or Notre Dame, which they can also apply the funds to if they are willing to top it off.

The NCAA recruit has none of these options plus he misses out on the best development league in the world, which decreases his odds more than in half of realizing the ultimate goal.

The 16 year old kid who goes the WHL route OPENS UP HIS OPTIONS.

The 16 year old kid who waits on an NCAA offer severely restricts his options.

Now ... you want to fast forward to a 222 year old adult who has taken his best shot and is now considering the OPTIONS he has earned. Should I cash in my 5 year scholarship to any University I choose or should I take a run at Professional Hockey?

Well, thats a nice choice to have, and who are you or I to tell a 22 year old adult what to do?

We can guide the 16 year old to open up his options so he has that choice to make, but what a 22 year old adult does with the options he's earned is not for you or I to say.

It should be noted that a nice long pro career in the AHL is far more lucrative than it used to be. The recent CBA changes in the NHL have had a nice trickle down effect and many AHL players are now making 6 figures, some as high half a million. In fact, the lowest monthly salary now for an AHL player is 9K per month. Not sure how many bachelor degrees are paying that type of minimum these days.

European Leagues are now averaging 6 figures and the KHL salaries routinely top 1 million.

There are lots of high paying hockey jobs out there these days other than the NHL and CHL grads soak these jobs up at a 3:1 ratio over their NCAA counterparts as well.

So no, I don't agree with you. A 22 year old man who reaches a fork in the road of playing in one of these leagues or cashing in a 5 year education package has earned himself 2 great choices and I applaud and support whichever he decides and consider both choices succesful.

[O-townClown]

Scorekeeper, your head must hurt from stretching your brain so much to make the argument you do.

Major Junior is fine for some, but it comes at too high of a price for most American parents. You are solely concerned about the NHL and solely concerned about a degree from one of the Top 100 universities in the world.

Choice A:
* play Junior hockey in Canada from age 16-20
* go to a Canadian college from age 21-24

Choice B:
* play Junior hockey in the USHL from age 16-20
* play NCAA hockey from age 21-24 and attend college

I'm simplifying things, but you seem to get angry that people like me say Choice B is a no-brainer for our family.

Why does someone that likes the CHL care one bit when a kid chooses a different path? It isn't like the "best league in the world" that offers the "best path to the NHL or college" should have to shout to sell itself. The story should be evident.

College Hockey, Inc. was created because the story needed to be told. There were a lot of families hearing from folks touting the Junior path before college recruiters were even in the picture. Now that there's a voice to extol the virtues of the NCAA, why not let families decide for themselves without confusing and selective use of facts, figures, and data?

[scorekeeper]

I have listened and respect your opinion on this but really, world wide? , for arguments sake lets at least narrow our focus to North America.

Harvard
Yale
Princeton
Dartmouth
Brown
Cornell
Norte Dame
Denver

That's just off the top of my head. Most of us parents would love to be concerned about the quality of these institutions. A kid likely needs to be in the top 5 % nationally to be accepted at any of these schools. A b average ain't cuttin it, unless you are an athlete. I accept the advantages you've stated about the CHL, to dismiss the unique advantages offered by some NCAA schools is just denial.

Only 2 of those schools offer academic scholarships. I agree that a hockey player who is smart enough to succeed at an Ivy League school has an entirely different decision than the rest.

It might suprise you to know that neither Denver or Nortre Dame is considered a top 100 school. In fact, in the most recent study, only 2 D1 schools that offer athletic scholarships, Michigan and Boston University, are ranked in the top 100. In fact, Ivy League excluded, Canadian Schools offering hockey do better academically than their NCAA counterparts.

Aside from the Ivy League, who offer no athletic scholarship, you are better off academically at University of Toronto, University of BC or McGill than any other D1 hockey school with the sole exception of Michigan.

http://www.university-list.net/rank.htm

[Lazy Scout]

So if the stats don't lie and only 20% use the scholarship for education, then where are the remaining 80%? NHL? I don't think so. The CHL is banking on these young kids with dreams to have that carrot dangled in front of them as long as they can, or at least 18 months long when their scholarship money is forfeited. They are hoping for at minimum, AHL or European league to get them to the big show and the CHL is off the hook. For all those players that dabble in semi pro but never make it to the NHL, I hope they have something to fall back on when they are 30 yrs old and still have a full life ahead of them to make a living. There are many ex NHLer's living in the metro area today that actually have to have a job and are working.

[O-townClown]

WHL players get the best of both worlds, playing in the worlds #1 development league which provides a better than 2:1 ratio of achieving the dream than they would get in the NCAA.

This is flat-out nonsense and illustrates you either are going to great lengths to mislead people or have zero understanding of basic statistics.

You imply that going to the WHL rather than joining a college team doubled the chance of Seth Jones reaching the NHL. That's not how it works. Conversely, there are scores of kids like Matt Gilroy that are in the NHL as a result of opting for NCAA hockey and its much longer developmental path.

Heck, I can even argue that Martin St. Louis increased his chances of playing in the NHL by going to Vermont.

[Lazy Scout]

You also can't pick any University of your choice anywhere, must be the state or province that you live in and you have to be ACCEPTED by University standards.

[keepyourheadup]

I give! Not only is it a better place to play hockey but it offers a better educational opportunities as well.

The scholarship in the Ivy League is getting in! That's almost 15 percent of all NCAA hockey players. Find me a list of Americans that played in the CHL and then went on to graduate from one of the schools I've mentioned. I'm guessing its fairly short.

[Tigers33]

Scorekeeper - you are confusing everyone of us! First of all it's humorous how many of us have tried to compromise saying hockey wise there is no comparison. You just don't want to budge do ya

So I will give in...god bless the CHL for everything it is. Not!! USA! USA! USA!

Anyways, you just backed our own argument. You stated that at the age of 22 a kid now has come to a fork in the road. Keep playing hockey in the echl or Ahl with the dreams to play in the NHL one day, or take advantage of your education package. Where is the fork in the NCAA route? That's the big thing...there isn't one!!

How many kids actually would give up there hopes to play in the NHL at the age of 22 if they have been trying to get their since age 5. Not many! Hence the 20% graduation rate of the CHL.

Also keep saying any university!!! But that's not true. Explain how much money a kid gets. According to that article you are exaggerating the truth.

NCAA route doesn't include forks in the road. Using your own words. The NCAA route offers an education and path to the NHL at the same time.

Does the CHL offer that? Simple yes or no answer.

[scorekeeper]

Why does someone that likes the CHL care one bit when a kid chooses a different path? It isn't like the "best league in the world" that offers the "best path to the NHL or college" should have to shout to sell itself. The story should be evident.

I celebrate kids of all paths. We have many friends who chosen the NCAA path and many who have graduated from the WHL as well. I know from personal experience it's a personal decision.

That said, when a forum of which I am a member has members who state falsehoods about the CHL, I am happy to step in and set the record straight.

It was clear from the chatter on these boards, your simplification included, that the benefits of the WHL path were not self-evident and needed an informed perspective.

[The Exiled One]

A 16 year old kid who is good enough to play in the WHL can also bank on a 4-5 year college degree and another 2 -3 years college education while with the team

Unless he gets cut

, generating a full 7 years minimum of college education if he wants.

So he could wait until he graduates high school at the age of 18 and still get 2 years + 2 years for a full scholarship. Sounds like a better age to make that choice.

Further, he gets his choice of schools

...near the team he was drafted by. Heaven forbid he gets traded.

and is not limited to which D1 school may or may not make him an offer.

...or he could pick the school he likes best from the multiple offers he gets (assuming he's one of the uber-talented type of kids that gets drafted by the WHL).

The 16 year old kid who goes the WHL route OPENS UP HIS OPTIONS.

According to your "facts", this would apply to an 18 year old high school graduate as well.

Now ... you want to fast forward to a 22 year old adult who has taken his best shot and is now considering the OPTIONS he has earned. Should I cash in my 5 year scholarship to any University I choose or should I take a run at Professional Hockey?

Or the 22 year old NCAA college graduate who can ALSO pursue a professional hockey career. You make it sound like the WHL is an "or" proposition, while the NCAA is an "and" proposition.

Let's face it scorekeeper, you're a Canadian who grew up under the CHL system. You are in this forum for the sole purpose of convincing us Minnesotans that they way we've been developing hockey players all these years is the wrong way. You come off like a Muslim walking into a church and trying to convince all the Christians to convert.

Stop trying to make Minnesotans to the WHL happen. It's not going to happen.

[scorekeeper]

You also can't pick any University of your choice anywhere, must be the state or province that you live in and you have to be ACCEPTED by University standards.

That's not the case in the WHL, which is where Minnesota kids would be eligible to play. A local public institution of your choice is stated in the contract, but you can transfer the funding to the school of your choice.

[scorekeeper]

A 16 year old kid who is good enough to play in the WHL can also bank on a 4-5 year college degree and another 2 -3 years college education while with the team

Unless he gets cut

, generating a full 7 years minimum of college education if he wants.

So he could wait until he graduates high school at the age of 18 and still get 2 years + 2 years for a full scholarship. Sounds like a better age to make that choice.

Further, he gets his choice of schools

...near the team he was drafted by. Heaven forbid he gets traded.

and is not limited to which D1 school may or may not make him an offer.

...or he could pick the school he likes best from the multiple offers he gets (assuming he's one of the uber-talented type of kids that gets drafted by the WHL).

The 16 year old kid who goes the WHL route OPENS UP HIS OPTIONS.

According to your "facts", this would apply to an 18 year old high school graduate as well.

Now ... you want to fast forward to a 22 year old adult who has taken his best shot and is now considering the OPTIONS he has earned. Should I cash in my 5 year scholarship to any University I choose or should I take a run at Professional Hockey?

Or the 22 year old NCAA college graduate who can ALSO pursue a professional hockey career. You make it sound like the WHL is an "or" proposition, while the NCAA is an "and" proposition.

Let's face it scorekeeper, you're a Canadian who grew up under the CHL system. You are in this forum for the sole purpose of convincing us Minnesotans that they way we've been developing hockey players all these years is the wrong way. You come off like a Muslim walking into a church and trying to convince all the Christians to convert.

Stop trying to make Minnesotans to the WHL happen. It's not going to happen.

I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. I appreciate the NCAA path and have an even higher regard for the Ivy League. I am just appalled at the ignorance regarding the WHL on this forum and trying to clear up the misconceptions, lies and spin ... like the stuff you mention above.

for example;

You state that a player who goes to the WHL at 16 might get cut before he achieves his 4 year college scholarship.

Of course, there is always that possibility possibility BUT ... the 16 year old who comes to the WHL, say Keegan Iverson, gets a year on signing and a year on playing his first game, so he had 2 years paid scholarship to the U of M as a 15 year old last March. He got another for playing this year, so that's 3 years in his pocket, which would be the minimum that any kid that age would get. Does he have to make the team this year to get the the 4th year? Of course he does. He likely will and complete his 4th year of edcuation (and can still earn more), but consider if he didn't for some reason.

1.) If he got hurt and couldn't make the team, he is insured and automatically gets his 4th and 5th years. An NCAA offer would be rescinded on an inury where a player couldn't play.

2.) If he didn't make the team on ability as a 17 year old, then how likely is he to get a decent offer from a decent NCAA school? Maybe a 50% offer? Maybe none. But Keegan already has 3 years in his back pocket. Fortunate in this instance that he went to Portland for that year.

3.) You also forget to mention that NCAA scholarships are performanced based and are on a year-by-year basis. If a player doesn’t live up to expectations, his scholarship money can be reduced all the way down to zero if need be.

So throwing a statement like "Unless he gets cut" as if it has drawbacks compared to the NCAA option is both ill informed and disengenuos at best.

You also keep pointing to the fact that kids can go at 18 and get similiar benefits. You are correct of course, and the WHL welcomes with open arms 18 year old players who can make the roster.

However, you forget one VERY important fact. The NHL draft happens in the 18th year for most players. The CHL drafts by far the most players into the NHL due to the fact they are the worlds #1 developmental option. It is no wonder they draft more players with a schedule and routing that mimics the NHL, that has the best quality players in the world - older players - and professional coaches who actually coach full time and not between grading papers.

One reason for a 16 or 17 year old to go to the WHL before their 18th year is for the benefits it has regarding the NHL draft. Like it or not, NHL scouts show a preference to CHL players. There is a reason that 28 of the top 30 ranked players for this years NHL draft are CHL players.