Another discussion on Tier 1 AAA teams

[muckandgrind]

m&g, you are doing small associations a favor by sucking players and coaches out of their system? Please don't do me any of your "favors".

Again, you are ignoring the fact that these associations are already dying a slow death WHETHER OR NOT a player or two leaves. That player stays, the association dies; the player leaves, the association dies. What's the difference?? What's wrong with letting a player go to play at the level he/she should be playing at?

You must be involved in a nice size association, otherwise you would know what I'm talking about.

Nice flip-flop on players coming from large associations. There already is a system in place for competitive balance. It's A, B, C. And it allows for tweaking to maintain good balance. Some associations are doing 2 A teams, and there are B1 and B2 subsets to even it out.

If MN Hockey forced the larger associations to put two A teams on the ice, I would agree with you. But you know, and I know, there is no "competitive balance" in the current system. Edina, Wayzata, Eden Prairie and associations of their sizes that only have one A team will always dominate over the smaller associations.

It would be way more expensive than you are presenting and you know that. The machine charges $1800-2000 for a summer. And they are out of town to just a few tournaments. Their cost doesn't include travel. Got that cost breakdown ready? For Tier I, every other league game is going to be on the road. It isn't wrong for your proposal to be expensive. It is wrong to present it well under priced to garner support.

I've been told that MM is charging over $200/hour this winter. Where were you going to score that cheap ice?

It doesn't have to be all that more expensive. The Edge charges around $1350 for the summer and they have between 70-90 hours of ice time. Another $500-$600 for a full winter (120 hours) doesn't seem all that implausable.

Where do you find the extra ice? Not too difficult. The Fire was able to get lots of ice at Edison and Parade. Augsburg, Mariucci and Ridder also are looking to sell ice. If you look, you can find it.

[spin-o-rama]

5th-graders. Since when do you feel that choice is justification to break/change rules? Choice (absolute freedom) without governing rules is anarchy. Is that what you want? Because you want to speed, does that alone mean the speed limits should be raised or should not be applied to you? Hopefully the lawmakers will make changes to the laws based on providing an overall benefit to their constituency and not one or two squeeky wheels. Then again, you never know. Sometimes the lawmakers pull a bloomer (one-site state tourney).

BTW, I am not Tim Poehling. I am not even from lakeville.

m&g, you're really not winning me over with your attitude that smaller associations are less than the dust beneath your chariot wheels. Whether or not YOU are in a small association, it is clear you are not here to assist their needs.

Maybe you should switch your campaign to dictating multiple A teams where needed. It might have more support. It would definitely be easier to implement on a trial basis, but won't be as profitable to you.

120 hours at $200/hour /17 players is $1411/player. Add in unis, refs, paid coaches and managers, equipment, tournament fees, and travel. I still don't see how you are going to make budget. And give a call to mariucci/ridder and tell them you want the $200/hour ice, don't forget that parking isn't free there either.

Glad to know you have sources for ice. Maybe some of the small associations will fold and you can pick up some more. Ice availablity, IMO, is not a factor to decide if Tier I should be allowed, but naturally should be a factor in deciding if you want to run or join a club.

[5thgraders]

[quote="O-townClown"][quote="5thgraders"]Spin o Bama , Since when do you own the
players and the coaches this is America the land of choice. [b]You are the
reason that Mn Hockey has fallen behind [/b]and can't seem to catch up. You are losing the Race to a pig with lipstick.[/quote]

It has? Who is Minnesota Hockey behind? Ontario? By some measures it has always been 'behind' Ontario. By most of those same measures it has actually caught up.

Minnesota Hockey is not behind. Enlighten me.[/quote]

If you were not so far away you would see that some of us from
Minnesota and not Florida like your cover implies have seen it.
The results on the ice speak louder than words. Get up to a game
and see for yourself what dilluted pee wee A looks like compared to
Tier 1 pee wee being played in Detroit. Some say its rap I call it crap.

[Dazed&Confused]

Association based hockey does a great job. It does a great job for what it is. It however does not provide an avenue for exceptional or gifted platyers to be challenged. Nor does it provde the path for future achievment. Tier one hockey does not provide any of the before mentioned needs either. Does Minesota need to go down this road? Perhaps. There isnt really any golden path to the promise land. Leave it alone we have a good thing going. As far as the fire leave them alone. If you need the AAA go play for a team they have open tryouts. All of them do. All !

[O-townClown]

If you were not so far away you would see that some of us from
Minnesota and not Florida like your cover implies have seen it.
The results on the ice speak louder than words. Get up to a game
and see for yourself what dilluted pee wee A looks like compared to
Tier 1 pee wee being played in Detroit. Some say its rap I call it crap.

Ahhh, so this is it. Minnesota is "behind" Detroit because its teams couldn't beat Honeybaked or Little Caesars.

Facts:

Honeybaked went 69-3-2 and had a power rating of 21.05.
Little Caesars went 41-14-4 and had a power rating of 18.26.
Belle Tire went 37-14-5 and had a power rating of 17.90.
Victory Honda went 25-33-6 and had a power rating of 16.68.
Compuware went 21-30-7 and had a power rating of 15.25.

I don't know if there are other AAA Detroit Pee Wee teams.

Edina went 45-14 and had a power rating of 16.72.
Wayzata went 38-8-2 and had a power rating of 16.39.
Woodbury went 40-4-2 and had a power rating of 16.21.
Eden Prairie went 33-13-4 and had a power rating of 15.36.

Edina lost three close games to the Fire Hockey Club (51-4-2, 19.30, ranked #3 of all Tier I 1995 birthyear teams in America).

Edina lost once by a goal to the Colorado Thunderbirds (16.41 power rating, #12 ranked).

The Fire were very successful against Minnesota's top Pee Wee teams with several quality wins and only one tie with #4 ranked Eden Prairie as a blemish.

The Thunderbirds did well against Minnesota Pee Wee teams during a Christmas trip (we coincidentally stayed in their hotel). They did win most of their games against Minnesota's good teams, but there were losses to #2 ranked Wayzata and #6 ranked Lakeville South.

Obviously this isn't an apples to apples comparison with different ages and the contrast of community-based versus club hockey. HOWEVER - can't anyone see that only a handful of teams in the whole country (as many in Detroit - Honeybaked - as you have in the Twin Cities with the Fire) are better than the best teams in Minnesota?

Is this comment you made about one team? There are plenty of teams in Minnesota that will have no trouble going against a Detroit-based team like Compuware or Victory Honda.

Or is the comment about diluted Pee Wee A crap directed at the many teams that don't play in District 6 or in similar large associations like Wayzata, Centennial, or White Bear Lake?

Minnesota is not 'falling behind' Detroit/Michigan hockey by any measure. I did watch Minnesota Pee Wee hockey last year and it was good. The Edina Holiday Tournament was loaded. When the #12 Pee Wee team in all the land comes and is just one of several very good teams in the field I don't think Minnesota has anything to worry about.

Here's the kicker. Unless you are the guy that puts it all together and coaches, if you had a Minnesota-based team that is better than Honeybaked your kid isn't on it!

Seriously, are any of these folks clamoring for "choice" as a way to cloak the fact they want their son to win a National Championship because they don't have a chance to win a State Championship (because they don't live in the right communities) really the parents of one of the Top 15 skaters in the state?

[myhockeyman]

Sorry to start the debate again...

By the way, the last two sentence of the paragraph that was quoted were left off. It might be worth noting that I've run the numbers pretty thoroughly. The last two sentences:

"Clearly, different states and regions have different ideas on how to organize the most competitive teams in their area. Ironically, statistics show that the fewer AAA teams an area has, the higher the number of NHL draft picks and players an area produces."

Massachusetts Pro numbers are way down over the past 10-20 years, which seems to correlate to when the AAA boom started. AAA hockey is absolutely necessary to produce high caliber players in areas with low participation. Florida, Texas & California are definitely producing these kids in greater numbers, but the percentage of players who "make it" is still half or less than that of Minnesota. Ask parents of kids on these teams and, depending upon how you measure it and how you do it, a season costs between $10-30k.

I played for a MN association that only had "B" teams and I played for one of the better programs in the state. I have a kid who has played "AAA" and "AA" hockey in other parts of the country. I watched my kid turn down a chance to play on his HS hockey team as a freshmen because his bantam team can beat his HS team (I realize you, who have only lived in MN, may not get that one). High School hockey would have only cost me about $5k, I'll be paying more than $10k for bantams. And that's the cost of "AA" hockey in the midwest. We will pay our coaches $12k salary (not including travel expenses) for the season and we can't touch Eden Prairie or Edina. Choice? I have to drive over 200 miles to find a better team, which is where our closest league games are played. My neighbor sent his son out of state to play as a Freshman in HS. He wasn't alone, we send about 5 kids out of town every birth year.

Is town based hockey perfect? Absolutely not! Does Minnesota have the best Peewee hockey in the country? Absolutely not! As stated earlier in this thread, it doesn't compare to Honeybaked, Compuware (Detroit) or the Chicago Mission.

Does Minnesota have the best existing system in the US for developing hockey players? Absolutely. Add real in-state winter AAA hockey and you will begin to destroy the magic. I can rant for hours, but will spare you and my fingers. Does the current system restrict choice? Absolutely. Is restricting choice un-American? Yep. But we Americans have been known to accept limits on choice when the majority have stood strongly behind the restrictions. There will be a few more chapters written before this story is over...

[O-townClown]

Excellent post, Myhockeyman.

Last year there were 4 Tier I teams in the entire Southeast. One in the DC area (Team Maryland?), one that played out of three rinks (Huntsville, Nashville, Atlanta) and only played games in Ontario, Michigan, and places like that, and two in Florida. Some of the kids on these teams could not have made some of the District 6 teams. (Obviously the top kids would have.) Sparsely populated - in hockey terms - areas didn't go to Tier I because it is 'better' than Minnesota...they did it out of necessity.

[5thgraders]

[quote="O-townClown"][quote="5thgraders"] If you were not so far away you would see that some of us from
Minnesota and not Florida like your cover implies have seen it.
The results on the ice speak louder than words. Get up to a game
and see for yourself what dilluted pee wee A looks like compared to
Tier 1 pee wee being played in Detroit. Some say its rap I call it crap.[/quote]

Ahhh, so this is it. Minnesota is "behind" Detroit because its teams couldn't beat Honeybaked or Little Caesars.

Facts:

Honeybaked went 69-3-2 and had a power rating of 21.05.
Little Caesars went 41-14-4 and had a power rating of 18.26.
Belle Tire went 37-14-5 and had a power rating of 17.90.
Victory Honda went 25-33-6 and had a power rating of 16.68.
Compuware went 21-30-7 and had a power rating of 15.25.

I don't know if there are other AAA Detroit Pee Wee teams.

Edina went 45-14 and had a power rating of 16.72.
Wayzata went 38-8-2 and had a power rating of 16.39.
Woodbury went 40-4-2 and had a power rating of 16.21.
Eden Prairie went 33-13-4 and had a power rating of 15.36.

Edina lost three close games to the Fire Hockey Club (51-4-2, 19.30, ranked #3 of all Tier I 1995 birthyear teams in America).

Edina lost once by a goal to the Colorado Thunderbirds (16.41 power rating, #12 ranked).

The Fire were very successful against Minnesota's top Pee Wee teams with several quality wins and only one tie with #4 ranked Eden Prairie as a blemish.

The Thunderbirds did well against Minnesota Pee Wee teams during a Christmas trip (we coincidentally stayed in their hotel). They did win most of their games against Minnesota's good teams, but there were losses to #2 ranked Wayzata and #6 ranked Lakeville South.

Obviously this isn't an apples to apples comparison with different ages and the contrast of community-based versus club hockey. HOWEVER - can't anyone see that only a handful of teams in the whole country (as many in Detroit - Honeybaked - as you have in the Twin Cities with the Fire) are better than the best teams in Minnesota?

Is this comment you made about [b]one[/b] team? There are plenty of teams in Minnesota that will have no trouble going against a Detroit-based team like Compuware or Victory Honda.

Or is the comment about diluted Pee Wee A crap directed at the many teams that [b]don't[/b] play in District 6 or in similar large associations like Wayzata, Centennial, or White Bear Lake?

Minnesota is not 'falling behind' Detroit/Michigan hockey by any measure. I did watch Minnesota Pee Wee hockey last year and it was good. The Edina Holiday Tournament was [b]loaded[/b]. When the #12 Pee Wee team in all the land comes and [i]is just one of several[/i] very good teams in the field I don't think Minnesota has anything to worry about.

Here's the kicker. Unless you are the guy that puts it all together and coaches, if you had a Minnesota-based team that is better than Honeybaked [b][i]your kid isn't on it![/i][/b]

Seriously, are any of these folks clamoring for "choice" as a way to cloak the fact they want their son to win a National Championship because they don't have a chance to win a State Championship (because they don't live in the right communities) really the parents of one of the Top 15 skaters in the state?[/quote] Just to Clarify Edina had 1994 birth year Clown and they couldn't hang with 1995 birth year Tier 1. No mention of that ?????
what Tier 1 teams are in the Edina classic this year ???

[sorno82]

This debate is getting tiresome, but I might as well contribute to the circular argument.

Minnesota Hockey has created a system that benefits the vast majority of players. Association level problems need to be dealt with at that level. That is not MinnHockeys fault-it is the parents responsibility to fix the local problems. Declining numbers in some areas would only be accelerated with a less inclusive system that focuses on the elite. Kids at all levels of ability and interest can play the game through high school. You do not have to be an elite player to love the game.

Proponets of a Tier 1 option in Minnesota see that the Twin Cities could support multiple top quality teams. They feel they can experience Tier 1 at a much lower cost than average. By playing a lot of local Tier 1 teams, their little Johnny gets the benefit of Tier 1 while they get to save a lot of coin. They obviously think this is the way to go. They complain about choice, but they still have the choice to do what a lot of other Tier 1 families do-send your kids to Detroit or some other Tier 1 hotbed and pay the freight. Or you can join the Fire.

I doubt that anyone could support an argument that their little superstar was kept out of the NHL by not being able to Play Tier 1 as a 12 year old. I do not think Sid the Kid and the Great One had players of like ability growing up, and they still developed just fine. Gretzky was not hindered by scoring 378 goals as a 12 year old and sid scored a 159 as a mite-apperently the second best player in their leagues was not near their ability level. They developed just fine with no competition at a young age.

The current system in Minnesota works just fine. Play association in winter and AAA in the summer. Get a variety of experiences. Don't focus the childhood on hockey. If the kid is good enough, the NHL will find them.

[O-townClown]

Obviously this isn't an apples to apples comparison with different ages and the contrast of community-based versus club hockey.

No mention of that, huh? It's right here. ^^^

Tier I teams were 1995 birth years and Minnesota Pee Wees were born in the last half of 1994, 1995, and the first half of 1996. Obviously the Pee Wee A teams in many communities only have the older Pee Wees. Yes, an association team from Minnesota is probably a little older. (When I played we went by birth year too so things were staggered with your schoolmates. Now it aligns more by grade.)

You don't get it. Does the fact Edina lost to the Colorado Thunderbirds mean they are playing a higher level of hockey there? Here's the thing...there is ONE Tier I team in the whole state of Colorado. (I think. I don't see another.)

For them to get to the National Championships last year I believe they only had to beat the Texas Attack. (Again, my apologies if this isn't right.) Once at Nationals they lost three games, including a 13-2 defeat at the hands of Honeybaked. At the end of all that I'm left to wonder, "what's the point?" Couldn't these 15 kids have joined the Tier II clubs in the Denver area and played closer to home? The reason they were excited to come to the Twin Cities to play 9 games (they went 6-3 during their visit) over the holiday break is that they don't have anyone to play where they're from. The team should be good...I think they practice a lot!

Answer this question. Why is it important to you that Minnesota have a few teams that play at the level of the Colorado Thunderbirds (I'd argue that they already do and we may as well just consider the Fire a Minnesota team) or maybe one that plays at the level of what the Honeybaked team did last year?

Is it to show the rest of the country that Minnesota has superior hockey? (Enlightened folks know Minnesota does and have tremendous respect.)

Is it because you feel tons are kids are underserved because they languish in lesser association programs?

Is it because you don't like people in your association?

What is the reason?

Pee Wees have not gone through puberty yet and any elite developmental focus is really a crapshoot. It makes sense for USA Hockey to ramp up Select efforts at 14, 15, 16, 17. These kids are 12. Minnesota teams play 50 games, so I'm not sure kids are missing developmental opportunities.

[FREDFLINTSTONE]

Last year the Eden Prairie bantam A's thumped all over the Fire 7-2 with shots about 50-10. In fairness, EP had 7 93's, and 10 92's. But also, this Eden Prairie team went to Colorado, played the Pikes peaks minor, a Phoenix team, the Colorado Thunderbirs, and Littleton CO, and came home with a 2-1-1 record.

[DuckDuckQuackQuack]

I wonder why other states are going the AAA route? It seems to work fine for them. If a player or family want to play AAA hockey so be it. I doubt that many local associations can offer the same development, ice time and strength of schedule.
Parents want to do what's best for their kids. Like some one mentioned there's no golden rule when it comes to hockey development. What works for some might not work for others.
Like I've always said. It amazes me that people are so worried about other families kids. What works for some might not work for others.
I see kids from the top program in the state leaving for other opportunities. So be it, don't worry about it!
If everything was running smoothly then AAA wouldn't be a consideration. Spare me on blaming the parents. That routine is getting WAY old. Because the same parents that leave associations seem to fit in just fine with the other programs. Interesting huh?

[O-townClown]

Like I've always said. It amazes me that people are so worried about other families kids. What works for some might not work for others.
I see kids from the top program in the state leaving for other opportunities. So be it, don't worry about it!

It is the responsibility of the decision makers at Minnesota Hockey to worry about every family's kid.

Saying other areas are "going the AAA route" is quite misleading since these other areas haven't had community-based hockey. Participation is low in most of the country. As a result you have clubs.

[jancze5]

Go to the high school board and see how many kids are bailing out in favor of more games and more games against better teams. (leaving for juniors in lieu of their junior/senior year of high school hockey)

Everyone that bashes AAA and thinks it's about money and the NHL just really have never spent any time at all on a AAA team and especially in another area.

Yes, the cost can be spendy, especially for a team from LA, Texas, Colorado, Florida. But if you live in the Northeast or in the Toronto/Detroit/Chicago/Upstate New York I-90 Corridor, you're not spending a lot to travel, you're probably traveling less than many geographically large districts in Minnesota do.

You could put the entire Atlantic Youth Hockey League between Anoka and Brainerd. That's about 16 AAA organizations who are fed by each states Tier 2 league. In Detroit they have the Little Caesars hockey league, Tier 2, that feeds into the Detroit teams. Nobody in the country plays a schedule close to the league in MWEHL. They go to Toronto (shorter than driving to the cities from Moorhead), down to Chicago and play at home.

It just seems that the AAA clubs guys want to bicker about are the 5 or so top AAA teams that are smaller markets that have 22 kids at tryouts and have to go away to play games. It does happen and it's a serious commitment of time and money. Many many AAA clubs don't spend nearly what some of us here have hypothetically chosen as a the norm (15K).

Everyone who thinks Minnesota has the best system because we produce the MOST D-1 players and the MOST NHL's...wake up, it's mainly because of our pure numbers, not our system. The state of Maryland has approximately 6,000 registered youth hockey players, we have over 34,000. THey had 2 players get selected in the NHL draft at high school age, we had 7. Pound for pound with output, if Maryland went 6 fold with their hockey population, they would have had 12 to our 7...do they have as good a system as us? If you care about NHL #'s, they might.

Point is, once again, the AAA backers here that I know believe it's simply about producing an OPTION to play in another capacity. The naysayers here say it's about "little jonny to the NHL", "bailing out"...whatever, B l o w me, it's not.

Do we need it, I'm not sure that we do. I've said that from day one. Going to St Louis for a game is 1K trip, going to Owatonna is a tank of gas. Do the math.

[FREDFLINTSTONE]

We have larger numbers in Minnesota, because Minnesota community based hockey has a spot for the B1,B2, and C teams. Where do the lower end players end up in the AAA system? Thats right, they quit and play another sport.

[5thgraders]

[quote="FREDFLINTSTONE"]We have larger numbers in Minnesota, because Minnesota community based hockey has a spot for the B1,B2, and C teams. Where do the lower end players end up in the AAA system? Thats right, they quit and play another sport.[/quote]

Freddy they finally get to play on the A Team.

Tier 1 would make a C player quit when he now has a better chance
to make a spot on the B or better yet the A team your post is really
untruthful you shouldn't even have to think about that you should know
it. Didn't Mr Slate teach you anything in Bedrock.

[FREDFLINTSTONE]

What? Quit speaking 5th grade leguinese

[5thgraders]

Not nice to pick on little kids Freddy

[FREDFLINTSTONE]

Not picking on anyone. I just did not comprehendo your comment. By the way, you should be in school.

[5thgraders]

Freddy I am in Computer science right now doing my class project.

And yes you are picking on Tier 1 which is for the kids not you.

[FREDFLINTSTONE]

Ah No......I am looking out for the kids that would have to give up hockey because they would fall through the cracks in AAA. Have you ever heard a kid say, "I play for a AAA C team? Didn't think so.

[FREDFLINTSTONE]

For a 5th grader, you stayed up quite late on Saturday night. 3:38 am?

[tomASS]

For a 5th grader, you stayed up quite late on Saturday night. 3:38 am?

must have been a Sponge Bob Square Pants marathon

[flatontheice]

Like I've always said. It amazes me that people are so worried about other families kids. What works for some might not work for others.
I see kids from the top program in the state leaving for other opportunities. So be it, don't worry about it!

It is the responsibility of the decision makers at Minnesota Hockey to worry about every family's kid.

Saying other areas are "going the AAA route" is quite misleading since these other areas haven't had community-based hockey. Participation is low in most of the country. As a result you have clubs.

your IQ at times gives me the shivers. Do you really think that a 12 year old kid has any idea what is the best for her/him? It IS the parents! I am not worried about it just pointing out that its not needed. Tier One AAA hockey in Minnesota is not needed. Especially in the Twin Cites area. I could understand the argument for Rural Minnesota.

[muckandgrind]

Like I've always said. It amazes me that people are so worried about other families kids. What works for some might not work for others.
I see kids from the top program in the state leaving for other opportunities. So be it, don't worry about it!

It is the responsibility of the decision makers at Minnesota Hockey to worry about every family's kid.

Saying other areas are "going the AAA route" is quite misleading since these other areas haven't had community-based hockey. Participation is low in most of the country. As a result you have clubs.

your IQ at times gives me the shivers. Do you really think that a 12 year old kid has any idea what is the best for her/him? It IS the parents! I am not worried about it just pointing out that its not needed. Tier One AAA hockey in Minnesota is not needed. Especially in the Twin Cites area. I could understand the argument for Rural Minnesota.

But what could it HURT? Adding one or two Tier I teams is not going to kill the monopoly that is MN Hockey. We're talking 15 kids at each level for one team....hardly enough to bring the whole system crashing down.