It must be rewarding to see this kid get the opportunity he's getting. Not to mention I read that this skater struggled when our association actually offered a advance Mite team. He didn't make that team and he said it made him work even harder.
I doubt you read it was Mite level, if so provide the evidence.
it was more than likely at an older age level - probably Pee Wee - want me to find out first hand so you can use the example at one of your clinics?
I'm actually looking forward to meeting you. I welcome you to ask my son where he wants to play hockey and why he wants to play there. He will tell you it's good development and he's playing with his friends.
I could care less about what you son does or doesn't do. That was not the focus of any of my previous points. Most 8 year olds do not think in terms of development. Their minds typically are not mature enough to understand that concept without parental influence defining it for them.
They do understand fun - if that is what his basis is, then great. There is nothing more to discuss.
You do your own thing - and the association will do it's own thing.
It must be rewarding to see this kid get the opportunity he's getting. Not to mention I read that this skater struggled when our association actually offered a advance Mite team. He didn't make that team and he said it made him work even harder.
I doubt you read it was Mite level, if so provide the evidence.
it was more than likely at an older age level - probably Pee Wee - want me to find out first hand so you can use the example at one of your clinics?
Just to clarify. I know you do your best to discredit me. I learned this information in the Star and Tribune.
Here it is:
Last winter, with Ann Arbor becoming a very real possibility, he began thinking hard about his future. When he played keep-away on the backyard pond with his golden retriever, Clyde, XXXX pondered whether his friends would think he was abandoning them if he left. He wondered if he would regret never playing in the state tournament.
His parents harbored worries of their own. The only real adversities XXXX had faced, XXXXX knew, were failing to make the Upper Mite team in third grade and breaking his arm the next year. He'd never been away from home for more than three days.
tomASS the only thing I'm going to use with this story is the fact that our association used to have advanced Mites and that this kids never gave up when he couldn't make the advance mite team. Once again. No need to look into it any further. He loved the game and played the game. He played endless hours on the pond, in the association and AAA hockey. Very simple.
I'm actually looking forward to meeting you. I welcome you to ask my son where he wants to play hockey and why he wants to play there. He will tell you it's good development and he's playing with his friends.
I could care less about what you son does or doesn't do. That was not the focus of any of my previous points. Most 8 year olds do not think in terms of development. Their minds typically are not mature enough to understand that concept without parental influence defining it for them.
They do understand fun - if that is what his basis is, then great. There is nothing more to discuss.
You do your own thing - and the association will do it's own thing.
tomASS- Like I said in a previous post. I like the changes our association is making. I've heard some great things about the squirt league from this past year.
I told some other parents from our association that I want to hear how great our squirt program is this winter. I want to hear how great the coaches are. I want to hear how fun it is. This makes the decision to come back next year alot easier.
It's also rewarding to hear our association is making changes in the Mite program. There is no doubt that Minnesota made had an influence in this decision. In fact many associations are making changes. In the end everyone wins. Kids will actually be placed on teams based off of talent regardless of their age. If they have the talent, heck why not?
Last year we had a player leave our association to develop his skills elsewhere out the state of Minnesota. Keep in mind that he left our propram going into his sophmore year. I personally applaud his decision. I thought it was funny to see my biggest critic blast me for having my son at Minnesota made. But yet he was very happy to see that this player left for bigger and better things. He even said this kid came from a great family and he wished him luck. Are you kidding me? This kid was developed in our association and AAA hockey. He made varsity as a 9th grader and then he bails to develop his skills elsewhere and the same guy who's very critical is happy for this player? Huh? Not to mention we have others being groomed to play at private schools. I know, I know these kids are leaving for one reason. Education right? Not! Here we have kids that are developed through our program planning on leaving the minute the first private school calls and we have people in our association upset because my son is playing at Minnesota made?
Because there is a big difference in age that we are talking about and it was the player who was making the decisions because he was capable of doing so.
No one cares about your son and where he plays. that was never the point of debate nor does the association care where you have your son play. It was never about your son or your choice. It was about your approach.
The Chaska Association was never mad about your choice and you know that. I have seen almost all the formal correspondences.
That was never a secret and those kids were always treated equal based upon their ability.
Regarding the players that were groomed in the association, I can only think of one out of 10 that did not attend private school most of their educational upbringing. Most were always going to go to private school.
Really? I find it interesting that all these kids that were ALWAYS going to go to private schools all have something in comman. They just happen to be the top players in their age group. Interesting! I guess if you play hockey and plan on going to private school the dream will come true. Dream it and you will become a great hockey player right? Come on!
His parents harbored worries of their own. The only real adversities XXXX had faced, XXXXX knew, were failing to make the Upper Mite team in third grade and breaking his arm the next year. He'd never been away from home for more than three days.
This statement says nothing about what you were claiming
gotothenetman- Interesting view point. If I may. Can I ask if you went to high school in the city where you played youth hockey? Or did you play high school hockey at a private school? It sounds like you were a good player.
I'm also interested to see if you're part of a clinic or private program right now? Maybe a AAA team? (please be honest - I know a little birdy) I know it's important to you that you support your community.
Last year we had a player leave our association to develop his skills elsewhere outside the state of Minnesota. Keep in mind that he left our program going into his sophmore year. I personally applaud his decision. I thought it was funny to see my biggest critic blast me for having my son at Minnesota made. But yet he was very happy to see that this player left for bigger and better things. He even said this kid came from a great family and he wished him luck. Are you kidding me? This kid was developed in our association and AAA hockey. He made varsity as a 9th grader and then he bails to develop his skills elsewhere and the same guy who's very critical is happy for this player? Huh? Not to mention we have others being groomed to play at private schools. I know, I know these kids are leaving for one reason. Education right? Not! Here we have kids that are developed through our program planning on leaving the minute the first private school calls and we have people in our association upset because my son is playing at Minnesota made?
Quack-
1) I played for my High School as did the kids I grew up with.
2) My kid does not play any AAA hockey, but was asked to play, but we did not due to the summer schedule.
3) I do help with some clinics in the fall Starting in Aug. I day a week getting the kids back on there skates a little before try-outs.
I do have a small problem with kids going to the private high schools, but also understand why some do. The difference is these kids are now 16, 17, 18 years old not 7,8,9.
I also understand that the times have changed and know that you have to adapt to these changes. If would have asked me 8 years ago I would have had a diffetrent view of kids leaving for private schools.
I also understand why parents/kids play the AAA hockey and think it is great in the spring before any other sports start, and in the fall a little.
I do not agree with it carring into the winter. Associations are fighting for ice and money to have programs for all the kids in the community, and with kids leaving it hurts the program.
Again, talk to a college coach they will tell you the kid either has it or not. Not Bernie or anyone else is going to change that.
If you do not think Kyle O or Erik Johnson or Peter Mueller did not already have the skills and ability and work ethic prior to hooking up with Bernie you really do not get it.
I can name you thousands of players that stayed in there association, shot pucks in there garage, maybe went to a week camp, ran, stick handled in there basement that made it to the next levels.
Play the game, Have Fun, Play with Friends, Take pride in your community, and make the big choices when you are a BIG BOY not a KID!
Forget it guys! Boogie/bernie/Quack is NEVER going to get it. His oldest kid is 8 and he knows it all. Let it go. It's entertaining to read, but sad to realize this is not fiction. He'll have to find out the hard way. I'm sure Chaska can't wait to welcome him back with open arms! Bet if he makes a B squad he will waddle back to Bernie anyway. I hope his kid is at least on one of the Machine teams and not the lower teams.
There have been a lot of studies performed that show that overintensive athletic activity at a young age does more harm than good. It usually works against the goals the parent/child may have. The tough part about this concept to the newcomers is that they see a lot of improvement early on, so they must be doing the right thing. This is one of many good articles that explain it to the lay person.
One paragraph is particularly interesting: While early specialization for young athletes seems to be a sure road to success, it may not be the best solution. An alarming number of injuries during athletic events raises questions about whether specialization is necessary at all for young athletes. M. F. Nagorni, from the former USSR, conducted a study showing that while performance improvements are immediately noticeable through early specialization, the young athlete will peak around the age of 15 or 16. Skill improvements will cease soon afterward. Alarmingly, this peak in athletic skill and the plateau that follows causes a mental and physical “burnout” for athletes, causing some to retire from competition altogether as early as 16 to 18 years of age. So, while athletes make performance improvements as eight to 14-year-olds, by the time they reach the high school competition level they were training for, they often experience performance inconsistencies. These inconsistencies are due to the years of forced adaptation to movements that their bodies experienced while enduring specialized training. It is this same forced adaptation that accounts for the alarmingly increasing amount of overuse injuries in athletes under the age of 18. Though early specialization offers exposure to the highest level of competition and a deeper knowledge of their sport, unfortunately it also accounts for the demise of an athlete’s career. What can be done to prepare an athlete for long-term success without skills or knowledge of a given sport?
It also goes on to say: The specialized athletes that do make it to the professional levels are not the product of a system that works, but rather the few who have survived the process.
It is no use to convince the true believers that they may be doing more harm than good. The data is out there for whoever wants to find it.
Last edited by sorno82 on Mon Jul 21, 2008 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
His parents harbored worries of their own. The only real adversities XXXX had faced, XXXXX knew, were failing to make the Upper Mite team in third grade and breaking his arm the next year. He'd never been away from home for more than three days.
This statement says nothing about what you were claiming
His parents harbored worries of their own. The only real adversities XXXX had faced, XXXXX knew, were failing to make the Upper Mite team in third grade and breaking his arm the next year. He'd never been away from home for more than three days.
This statement says nothing about what you were claiming
This doesn't prove my point?
No - because it was talking about being away from home on an extended stay for the first time and the mental anguish he would experience since it would hardly compare to those events in the past. It says nothing about not making the Upper Mite team being the incentive that drove him to be a better player. He felt anguish, he was disappointed, he might have cried, but that event did not define his hockey career. He was already driven before this happened.
Sorno, great post. Perhaps when Quack Quack sets down his Minnesota Made brouchure he will read the article. Duck Duck this does not mean that I care what you do or that Minnesota Made is bad. Its just a good article.
misspacman wrote:Sorno, great post. Perhaps when Quack Quack sets down his Minnesota Made brouchure he will read the article. Duck Duck this does not mean that I care what you do or that Minnesota Made is bad. Its just a good article.
misspacman- Keep in mind that the same people who bash Minnesota made have their kids on the ice the same amount as I do. My son received 100 hours of ice time last winter. Minnesota made was loaded with kids attending clinics from association hockey. In the end these kids received the same amount of ice time. Keep in mind that some kids were doing morning skate and afternoon skate.
Then you have people bashing Minnesota made but yet sign their kids up for clinics there. How funny is that?
I'm not sure why, but I really enjoy this thread. It's kind of like what goes on in my head when I consider if I'm really doing whatever I can to help my kid get better, or if she really wants to, or if I'm pushing too hard, all those things I imagine most hockey parents deal with.
So, thanks, all. Sarcasm and venom aside, it's an enlightening discussion.
Can't speak for others, but my older kid has done about 20 hours of ice since the end of the season, and may do 20 more before tryouts. It is all low pressure and skill/fun based. He played B1 last year and is on the bubble for A this year. From my own experiences growing up, and the reading I have done confirms my belief that doing too much too soon does more harm than good. My youngest will do about 20 hours of ice in the offseason, learning skills in a low pressure fun environment. They also dabble in baseball, tennis, basketball, lacrosse, and football-though not at the travel level.
I was talking to a friend while watching some Machine players during a game. One kid pulled off an absolutely sick move. I asked him if he could do that move when he was younger (he is a former WCHA player and NHL draft pick)-he said he still can't. His next comment was that all these hours of ice do not mean a lot if the kid does not develop athletically after puberty. Watching these kids perform at this level makes it hard to believe that is could not be in the best interest of the long term development of the athlete, but that is what a lot of smart people who have studied it and seen it all say.
Intense, year round, highly focussed development started at a young age leads to kids peaking early and not fully realizing their potential. That is why the commies went to a more general approach with specialization as they passed puberty. Their intentions were misguided, but they wanted to dominate the sports world in every discipline. That is why the research they did is so valuable today. Do not specialize at a young age unless you need to peak early in your athletic development (e.g. women's gymnastics).
MM is not the culprit, and their programs balanced with other personal and athletic activities would be just fine. I know kids on the Blades and Icemen who put in as many hours as the Machine kids which isn't good either. They do offer a lower pressure setting, but it is still too much too soon.
USA hockey is trying to push for the multi-sport athlete. This well rounded development will yield the best hockey players when it really counts. It is all about developing kids into well rounded adults. Sports is part of the equation, not the answer.
1. One friend relayed a story about watching his daughter's team play after more than a month off. He said you could see how much faster they got to the puck. At some point the season went on too long and the kids wore down. Play suffered. Now rejuvenated, the zip is back. How much is too much? How little is too little? My son asked me the other day, "Daddy, how many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop?" The world may never know.
2. Ding, ding, ding. Puberty again. As one who loved the game and developed early because I was always at the park, I know how this happens. Most kids grew and were physically stronger at age 13 and 14. I never really did. I didn't gain weight, but got what I've heard called "man strength" around age 19 and it was a real eye-opener. I was thinking, "oh my...this is why I thought all those guys were so good when we got to Bantams!" I could fly. In a speed game it would have been nice to have that physical development earlier. Oh well.
3. I know what you mean when you say it is hard to believe this isn't good. You'll have to rely on the occasional anecdotal stories, like the boy that let a grounder through his leg at the LLWS in the 6th inning when Apopka, FL lost to the Japanese in the World final. He never played baseball again. But he was good enough to be a starting infielder on what is that sports equivalent of an elite Tier I Pee Wee team. If you don't like it...
4. I don't think it leads to not fulfilling potential at all. I think kids reach their potential early. And most kids don't have ultra-high ceilings on their potential. Is Steve Nash better because he didn't play round-the-clock basketball as a kid? I doubt it. I don't know, how could you prove it. We hear about all the Academy kids (usually individual sports) that make it, but nobody says much about the scores that don't. Shattuck is pretty much the Nick Bolliteri of hockey. Still, most kids leave there and don't play D1.
5. You say Minnesota Made isn't the culprit, but they surely are an accomplice. Most stories are about the never-ending upsell for more ice time in the name of better development. I agree, more hockey in moderation, balanced with other activities, is a good thing.
6. The problem I have with USA Hockey's age guidelines is that they aren't followed one bit and they don't do anything to suppress it. The Atlanta Fire play about 75 games in-season from Labor Day to March at the Squirt level. In a perfect world the powers that be would say we'll never select anyone from this team for our Select camps when they are older. (Guidelines for that age are probably half that many games.) Instead I promise you'll they'll be all excited if any of those kids turn out to be any good. A couple are real good now. With NHL bloodlines. If they get through puberty alright they'll probably be great. I'll have more faith in USA Hockey if they take kids for the NTDP that are borderline on the hockey and can demonstrate another skill like piano, baseball, or painting. How many of them are the well-rounded athletes you mention?
USA hockey provides guidelines, but they do not enforce. Their guidelines are based on solid research and from copying what has worked overseas. If people refuse to take advice from those in the know, then they will find out the hard way.
Reading some of these athletic development books, they state emphatically that narrow development lowers the ceiling for athletic potential. Well rounded athletes have better long term success due to comprehensive athletic experience and less burn out. You need to keep them involved and let them come into their own at their own rate. Always exceptions to the rule, but the odds are with you the more well rounded you are.
Funny you mention the Atlanta fire. I ran into one of those kids with NHL bloodlines while on vacation last year in Florida. When he found out that we were from Minnesota, all he could do is talk about how he would have loved to have grown up in our hockey system. His dad played for the North Stars, but settled in Atlanta where he was originally drafted. He did say he got tons of icetime growing up, but wished he could have experienced MN hockey. People seem to wish for what they don't have.
I think this thread could be more productive. While some of the comments are humorous or (less) some of the energy could be used better. Case in point.
My question is, what is Canada doing that's putting more players in the NHL? (and always has). Do all of their best athletes (genetics) play"their" sport? Is their system of development that much better? If so, what is it? Is MM model closer to the Canadian version or is the Minnesota model? Or, is it tradition?
Can Minny hockey do better or is it fine the way it is?
I'll let the hockey gurus and experts (and/or the ones that think they are) ponder this.
10ouncepuck wrote:I think this thread could be more productive. While some of the comments are humorous or (less) some of the energy could be used better. Case in point.
My question is, what is Canada doing that's putting more players in the NHL? (and always has). Do all of their best athletes (genetics) play"their" sport? Is their system of development that much better? If so, what is it? Is MM model closer to the Canadian version or is the Minnesota model? Or, is it tradition?
Can Minny hockey do better or is it fine the way it is?
I'll let the hockey gurus and experts (and/or the ones that think they are) ponder this.
My question is, what is Canada doing that's putting more players in the NHL? (and always has).
10ounce puck- Great question for the traditionalist. I'm almost positive you'll hear that the canadian kids skate 20 hours during the summer and skate 40 hours in the winter. Remember don't push the kids too hard.
Another question: How many Canadian kids play hockey versus kids from the United States? I would think they have the numbers. Maybe not? Lets see if any traditionalist can answer for us.
10ouncepuck wrote:My question is, what is Canada doing that's putting more players in the NHL? (and always has). Do all of their best athletes (genetics) play"their" sport? Is their system of development that much better? If so, what is it? Is MM model closer to the Canadian version or is the Minnesota model? Or, is it tradition?
Can Minny hockey do better or is it fine the way it is?
Minnesota is statistically greatly OVER represented in the NHL compared to other states. Those USA hockey registration numbers you cite probably show about 10% of all American players in Minnesota.
Canada does place incredible emphasis on intense development at the Junior ages. Prescribing more at the Mite, Squirt, and Pee Wee level isn't needed if you ask me.
Minnesota does not follow the rest of the country, so it should be viewed separately from US and Canada numbers.
You raise good questions. I'll also point out the obvious...an overwhelming majority of youth hockey players DON'T grow up to be NHL players no matter which model you follow. If the goal is to have more Minnesotans in the NHL it makes sense to alter the model at the high school level so the elite players face elite competition more often.
For many people the goal isn't to place more Minnesotans in the NHL.
Doglover wrote:Forget it guys! Boogie/bernie/Quack is NEVER going to get it. His oldest kid is 8 and he knows it all. Let it go. It's entertaining to read, but sad to realize this is not fiction. He'll have to find out the hard way. I'm sure Chaska can't wait to welcome him back with open arms! Bet if he makes a B squad he will waddle back to Bernie anyway. I hope his kid is at least on one of the Machine teams and not the lower teams.
Hockey players are born, not made at MN Made.
Doggy- The funny thing about this. I DO get it. I've said this endless times that I don't care if my son is a squirt B player next year. It really doesn't matter to me.
I also appreciate all the hard work and devotion from people in my association. I used to coach and volunteered to help out. I'm not too concerned about the people from my association. If they disagree that my son is playing at Minnesota made they have a right to their opinion. Personally I don't like telling grown adults where there kids should be playing sports. That's the difference in some people. Some people hide behind computers and some speak the truth. If you're not hiding then send me a private message and we can talk.
Shhhhhhhh.......... my son is not on the Machine team. I'm ok with that. I'll fill you in on a little secret. At this age it's all about fun and development. He's having tons of fun and he's developing fine. He has lots of friend in both programs. We're in a no lose situation everything is working out awesome.
than why are you so intent on talking about HIS development constantly??
every post.
ten ounce puck brought up some great topics and he did have the numbers in his post. but somehow instead of addressing what he brought up you were right back to your son.
USA hockey registrations: 06-07 - 457,038
Hockey Canada: 06-07 - 545,363
There is a lot of energy here, and a lot of people who care about hockey, so ten ounce is right, let's work toward solutions to the issues. With a little lively debate about what the goal of Minn Hockey is
it shouldn't be too hard to set up a lists of goals for association hockey. What would the perfect season look like from a kid's point of view? How does the state collectively get there. How do you take into account the elite mites
