Hockey is awesome

loveitorleaveit · Post by **loveitorleaveit** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:40 pm

InigoMontoya wrote:
The other option is to come on here and make a big stink about it.
SEC, how many scrimmages will your team have prior to 11/14?

My kid has already played in 6 tryout scrimmages, has 3 more non-tryout scrimmages and 2 games before they start district play (and we only know the schedule comes out in Nov, we may not even play games till Dec.).

SECoach · Post by **SECoach** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:06 pm

InigoMontoya wrote:
The other option is to come on here and make a big stink about it.
SEC, how many scrimmages will your team have prior to 11/14?

3

My point is that if you believe something needs to be changed you should follow the process. This is not someone that is asking questions here to find out the reasons...they are coming on here to bitch. When reasons are given the are immediatly dismissed without any reasonable discussion.

I can't believe Division I schools get away with not playing 50-70 games per season. Can't they see how this damages a players development and their chances to move on? After all their skills must surely be set by now since they are already set at Bantams and Pee Wees.

InigoMontoya · Post by **InigoMontoya** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:15 am

3

My point is that if you believe something needs to be changed you should follow the process. This is not someone that is asking questions here to find out the reasons...they are coming on here to bitch. When reasons are given the are immediatly dismissed without any reasonable discussion.

I can't believe Division I schools get away with not playing 50-70 games per season. Can't they see how this damages a players development and their chances to move on? After all their skills must surely be set by now since they are already set at Bantams and Pee Wees.

I'm guessing you might scrimmage once or twice more in the next 30 days, unless you think the kids will get a great understanding of the game by playing 2-on-2 in the corner. Individual skills are very important (NHLers work on edges every day); the best skating, best passing teams are very successful in the win column. Small area games are a useful part of practice to break a process down into pieces and focus intensely on one piece. Scrimmages are a way to apply the new-found outside edge of your left skate and the 2-on-1 rush drills from the previous week into a real, live game type situation to gain understanding of why you’re doing what you’re doing. The whole-part-whole philosophy of teaching/coaching isn’t new – I’ve never seen a little league program that keeps kids in a batting cage for two years before they can run the bases or a pop warner program that teaches only blocking and tackling until the kids turn thirteen when they throw the footballs onto the field. As far as Sakic only having the puck on the blade of his stick for 93 seconds, to me, that’s an interesting statistic, but nothing more. There is a whole lot happening on the ice that doesn’t include the kid with the puck – 22 kids on a football field, only one of them has the ball, the kids need to understand what the other 21 kids do, and how they fit into the overall concept of the game – the other 9 skaters need to understand where they need to be and what they need to do in the overall concept of team hockey.

On the topic of anger: I think you’re projecting. I don’t think the original poster was really looking for your opinion as to whether D10 should limit scrimmages or not. I think it was an FYI for all of us. Was he very excited that his association/team is limited by D10? I don’t think so. But neither do I get the feeling that the district asked for much input nor would be very receptive to changing the ruling, so I’m missing your point about what he is to do about it – if the police are working their way up the street, knocking down doors and dragging home owners into the street to beat them with batons, you’d have the neighbor call 911?

silentbutdeadly3139 · Post by **silentbutdeadly3139** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:18 am

SECoach wrote:
InigoMontoya wrote:
The other option is to come on here and make a big stink about it.
SEC, how many scrimmages will your team have prior to 11/14?
3

My point is that if you believe something needs to be changed you should follow the process. This is not someone that is asking questions here to find out the reasons...they are coming on here to bitch. When reasons are given the are immediatly dismissed without any reasonable discussion.

I can't believe Division I schools get away with not playing 50-70 games per season. Can't they see how this damages a players development and their chances to move on? After all their skills must surely be set by now since they are already set at Bantams and Pee Wees.

Or perhaps he is using the board to begin discussion, disseminate information and a rallying cry for others to HELP take action. There are a lot of intelligent people on this board and I've learned a lot, things our local association is not fully aware of or understand. Besides it is fun to bitch

wannagototherink · Post by **wannagototherink** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 10:05 am

InigoMontoya wrote:
3

My point is that if you believe something needs to be changed you should follow the process. This is not someone that is asking questions here to find out the reasons...they are coming on here to bitch. When reasons are given the are immediatly dismissed without any reasonable discussion.

I can't believe Division I schools get away with not playing 50-70 games per season. Can't they see how this damages a players development and their chances to move on? After all their skills must surely be set by now since they are already set at Bantams and Pee Wees.

I'm guessing you might scrimmage once or twice more in the next 30 days, unless you think the kids will get a great understanding of the game by playing 2-on-2 in the corner. Individual skills are very important (NHLers work on edges every day); the best skating, best passing teams are very successful in the win column. Small area games are a useful part of practice to break a process down into pieces and focus intensely on one piece. Scrimmages are a way to apply the new-found outside edge of your left skate and the 2-on-1 rush drills from the previous week into a real, live game type situation to gain understanding of why you’re doing what you’re doing. The whole-part-whole philosophy of teaching/coaching isn’t new – I’ve never seen a little league program that keeps kids in a batting cage for two years before they can run the bases or a pop warner program that teaches only blocking and tackling until the kids turn thirteen when they throw the footballs onto the field. As far as Sakic only having the puck on the blade of his stick for 93 seconds, to me, that’s an interesting statistic, but nothing more. There is a whole lot happening on the ice that doesn’t include the kid with the puck – 22 kids on a football field, only one of them has the ball, the kids need to understand what the other 21 kids do, and how they fit into the overall concept of the game – the other 9 skaters need to understand where they need to be and what they need to do in the overall concept of team hockey.

On the topic of anger: I think you’re projecting. I don’t think the original poster was really looking for your opinion as to whether D10 should limit scrimmages or not. I think it was an FYI for all of us. Was he very excited that his association/team is limited by D10? I don’t think so. But neither do I get the feeling that the district asked for much input nor would be very receptive to changing the ruling, so I’m missing your point about what he is to do about it – if the police are working their way up the street, knocking down doors and dragging home owners into the street to beat them with batons, you’d have the neighbor call 911?

I know this has nothing to do with the subject, but I wanted to applaud you on your take regarding the "Stick/Puck Time" Stat. I couldn't agree more. You see to me that says, if you have the puck on your stick for 90 seconds a game, you better know what the heck to do for the other 43:30 of the game. North American hockey is turning into robotic hockey. USA/Minnesota Hockey talk about "Pond Hockey Initiatives" and practice to game ratios. In my mind all that is crap. Watch a high school or even a college hockey game. Half the time there are 3 kids skating around a cirlcle in one corner of the rink cycling the puck. Why??? Because in my opinion, that is creating offense in todays game. It is all about possesion...cycle the puck until that 100% perfect shot opens up? If we have the puck they other team can't score. There are so many more skills in hockey than simply being able to have the puck on your stick...Backchecking, getting open, puck support, defense positioning, anticipation, etc. Those skills of course can be taught on a board or executed in a drill but you don't truly learn it until you've done over and over in a game situation and anticipation??? There is NO way to teach that in a practice situation like it can be learned playing the game.

My observations over the last 15-20 years are mainly at the bantam level because that is what I follow. I look at programs such as Rochester, White Bear Lake, Eden Praire, Edina, Centennial, Wayzata, Duluth East, Shattuck St. Mary's (I know they are a different animal, but I think for this it makes sense)...I would say that these programs as a whole play more games year in and year out than other programs out there. I would say these teams average between 60 - 70 game each year. First reaction off coure by many of you is to cringe at that amount of games...ok fine, it is a lot of games. However, look at these teams and than go look at at D1/USHL/NAHL rosters and you'll see a lot of kids that have come out of those programs. Take the Gophers: Jake Hansen WBL
Nick Leddy EP
Jake Kremer EP
Tony Lucia Wayzata
Joe Miller Wayzata
Kent Patterson Wayzata
Kevin Weirs Wayzata
Ryan Flynn Centennial
Bryan Schack Centennial
Zach Buddish Edina
Cade Fairchild Duluth
Alex Kangas Rochester

My point is, these kids played a lot of hockey games and it didn't seem to hurt them. I guess my opinion, good players are good players. The kids who work hard to become better players will get their opportunity. But when that opportunity comes you better know more than how to keep the puck on your stick. There are plenty of players who can do that, there are increasing less and less that know what to do the rest of the time!

rj04 · Post by **rj04** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:16 am

SECoach, Please read my entire post before you criticize. I was saying that the time was now to start introducing systems and theory. Working small games has some benefit but you still like to see your "NEW FOUND SKILLS" used in practical application. I am not dismissing any answer and you are not providing any topic for discussion. You seem to be a person who needs to get his way or go on crying about it. Why not read 90% of the postings on this topic and see what the majority is saying. I am well aware of the D10 policy and my rep and I have communicated, I have attended many D10 meetings and heard there views. The purpose of a public forum is to have reasonable discussion with the majority and to maybe enlighten yourself and learn. That is why I am hear. I am not hear to bitch and complain and try to prove my superiority as it is obvious some of us are. Back on topic.

SECoach · Post by **SECoach** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:14 pm

rj04 wrote:SECoach, Please read my entire post before you criticize. I was saying that the time was now to start introducing systems and theory. Working small games has some benefit but you still like to see your "NEW FOUND SKILLS" used in practical application. I am not dismissing any answer and you are not providing any topic for discussion. You seem to be a person who needs to get his way or go on crying about it. Why not read 90% of the postings on this topic and see what the majority is saying. I am well aware of the D10 policy and my rep and I have communicated, I have attended many D10 meetings and heard there views. The purpose of a public forum is to have reasonable discussion with the majority and to maybe enlighten yourself and learn. That is why I am hear. I am not hear to bitch and complain and try to prove my superiority as it is obvious some of us are. Back on topic.

I'm sorry you are right. I jumped to conclusions based on thinking that capital letters and exclamation points in posts meant something. My mistake. I wish you the best. Good talk.

rj04 · Post by **rj04** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:12 pm

Hey SEC can you have a dialogue, or do you just cast aspersions and insults in your tired sarcastic way. Get a clue. HERE AGAIN YOU HAVE NOT GIVEN ANY OF THE READERS A VALID REASON FOR THE 3 SCRIMMAGE RULE!!! How is that for capital letters!!!!

Good Luck!!!!

SECoach · Post by **SECoach** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:46 pm

Again, I'll apologize for my misguided tirades. I hope you get the answers that I can't provide, and continue to be a great positive supporter of youth hockey in Minnesota.

http://www.ushsho.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21367

PWD10 · Post by **PWD10** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:18 am

I am well aware of the D10 policy and my rep and I have communicated, I have attended many D10 meetings and heard there views.

So for the record...what led to this, and what is their point? What happened to make this the standard for D10 and why no one else?

muckandgrind · Post by **muckandgrind** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:24 am

hiptzech wrote:Help me understand why this is such a big deal. I see there are complaints of money paid out for ice time, refs, ect. What is wrong with starting the season with practices where you have the opportunity to work in skill development and team play. I am sure all that are complaining are knowledgeable about the amount of time a player has the puck on their stick during games when compared to practice time. I am not so sure that the kids don’t like it but the adults (once again) that have the issue. Why is this so bad? Take the ice time and make good use of the money spent, take the ice tim and practice, and the ref pay, have a pizza party. Get over it. Talk about a waste of money. Pay for a scrimmage that means nothing and limits the ice time for the players? If you want a return on your investment use some common sense. Keep your scrimmage scheduled, fire the refs, split the ice and practice. If you want to compete pit players from different teams and have them play small area games. End the ice time with a mini scrimmage of 20 mins. Get creative and stop pissing and moaning about a policy that is in place and you can not win at this time.

Kids love practices and hate games? Yeah right......

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:58 am

PWD10 wrote:
I am well aware of the D10 policy and my rep and I have communicated, I have attended many D10 meetings and heard there views.

So for the record...what led to this, and what is their point? What happened to make this the standard for D10 and why no one else?

The rule is that a team cannot participate in games/tournaments (scrimmages are games) until they have an approved roster.
Prior to that 3 or so scrimmages are allowed as a tryout tool.
D10 signs rosters on a speicified date. D16 we sign rosters as they are ready. This year with the designated associate registrar signing rosters, I (the DD) am approving temporary rosters prior to our sign-off date.
(We do not have that many early requests as our try-outs start later than the metro area.)

D10 is more complicated than D16, so, perhaps, temporary rosters are more difficult.

It is not a question of a new rule or one district doing something different than another - it is more a question of administration. D10 and D8 are very large. D10 admin does a good job but it is large and with the new sign-off procedure this year things are more complicated.

smalltownhockey21 · Post by **smalltownhockey21** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:00 am

I don't understand this still, I have received an email from our coaching director saying there is no limit...and his reply was an email he forwarded from D10's Tim Timm.

Maybe I have misunderstood and that there is a limit prior to the final roster sign off....time for more diggin.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:23 am

smalltownhockey21 wrote:I don't understand this still, I have received an email from our coaching director saying there is no limit...and his reply was an email he forwarded from D10's Tim Timm.

Maybe I have misunderstood and that there is a limit prior to the final roster sign off....time for more diggin.

The limit is prior to roster sign-off. It is not an official number but has been interpretted by every district to be 3.
Once the roster is in place (and by final it only means getting the appropriate signatures and red stamp - changes can be made after this by addendum to the roster)
once in place the number of games is not restricted (except for squirts - a whole different conversation).

hiptzech · Post by **hiptzech** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:24 am

muckandgrind wrote:
hiptzech wrote:Help me understand why this is such a big deal. I see there are complaints of money paid out for ice time, refs, ect. What is wrong with starting the season with practices where you have the opportunity to work in skill development and team play. I am sure all that are complaining are knowledgeable about the amount of time a player has the puck on their stick during games when compared to practice time. I am not so sure that the kids don’t like it but the adults (once again) that have the issue. Why is this so bad? Take the ice time and make good use of the money spent, take the ice tim and practice, and the ref pay, have a pizza party. Get over it. Talk about a waste of money. Pay for a scrimmage that means nothing and limits the ice time for the players? If you want a return on your investment use some common sense. Keep your scrimmage scheduled, fire the refs, split the ice and practice. If you want to compete pit players from different teams and have them play small area games. End the ice time with a mini scrimmage of 20 mins. Get creative and stop pissing and moaning about a policy that is in place and you can not win at this time.
Kids love practices and hate games? Yeah right......

Muck,
Tell me where I sad that? If you are going to put something in my face,then back it up.

hiptzech · Post by **hiptzech** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:25 am

muckandgrind wrote:
hiptzech wrote:Help me understand why this is such a big deal. I see there are complaints of money paid out for ice time, refs, ect. What is wrong with starting the season with practices where you have the opportunity to work in skill development and team play. I am sure all that are complaining are knowledgeable about the amount of time a player has the puck on their stick during games when compared to practice time. I am not so sure that the kids don’t like it but the adults (once again) that have the issue. Why is this so bad? Take the ice time and make good use of the money spent, take the ice tim and practice, and the ref pay, have a pizza party. Get over it. Talk about a waste of money. Pay for a scrimmage that means nothing and limits the ice time for the players? If you want a return on your investment use some common sense. Keep your scrimmage scheduled, fire the refs, split the ice and practice. If you want to compete pit players from different teams and have them play small area games. End the ice time with a mini scrimmage of 20 mins. Get creative and stop pissing and moaning about a policy that is in place and you can not win at this time.
Kids love practices and hate games? Yeah right......

Muck,
Tell me where I said that? If you are going to put something in my face,then back it up.

muckandgrind · Post by **muckandgrind** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:41 am

hiptzech wrote:
muckandgrind wrote:
hiptzech wrote:Help me understand why this is such a big deal. I see there are complaints of money paid out for ice time, refs, ect. What is wrong with starting the season with practices where you have the opportunity to work in skill development and team play. I am sure all that are complaining are knowledgeable about the amount of time a player has the puck on their stick during games when compared to practice time. I am not so sure that the kids don’t like it but the adults (once again) that have the issue. Why is this so bad? Take the ice time and make good use of the money spent, take the ice tim and practice, and the ref pay, have a pizza party. Get over it. Talk about a waste of money. Pay for a scrimmage that means nothing and limits the ice time for the players? If you want a return on your investment use some common sense. Keep your scrimmage scheduled, fire the refs, split the ice and practice. If you want to compete pit players from different teams and have them play small area games. End the ice time with a mini scrimmage of 20 mins. Get creative and stop pissing and moaning about a policy that is in place and you can not win at this time.
Kids love practices and hate games? Yeah right......
Muck,
Tell me where I said that? If you are going to put something in my face,then back it up.

Basically your whole post said just that. What you are saying: get rid of the games and take the ice time and practice. Nothing wrong with practicing, mind you, but you pull out the same ol' chiched argument that it "supposed to be about the kids"...well I can tell you without a doubt that kids prefer games with refs and scoreboards than practices and cross ice games, especially at the Bantam-level. So, if it's TRULY about the kids, then scheduling MORE games is what should be done...not fewer games.

And what do you mean by a "return on investment"? That sounds like a parent thing to me. I've never thought of hockey as an investment, personally. Development isn't my first concern...in my world, creating an enjoyable experience is the main reason with development coming in at a close second. I've never gone into coaching thinking of developing the next great D-! or NHL player, but rather the kid who loves to compete and has fun doing so.

inthestands · Post by **inthestands** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:44 am

creating an enjoyable experience is the main reason with development coming in at a close second.

If this was the goal for everyone, these message boards would be pretty dead..

hiptzech · Post by **hiptzech** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:05 pm

muckandgrind wrote:
hiptzech wrote:
muckandgrind wrote: Kids love practices and hate games? Yeah right......
Muck,
Tell me where I said that? If you are going to put something in my face,then back it up.
Basically your whole post said just that. What you are saying: get rid of the games and take the ice time and practice. Nothing wrong with practicing, mind you, but you pull out the same ol' chiched argument that it "supposed to be about the kids"...well I can tell you without a doubt that kids prefer games with refs and scoreboards than practices and cross ice games, especially at the Bantam-level. So, if it's TRULY about the kids, then scheduling MORE games is what should be done...not fewer games.

And what do you mean by a "return on investment"? That sounds like a parent thing to me. I've never thought of hockey as an investment, personally. Development isn't my first concern...in my world, creating an enjoyable experience is the main reason with development coming in at a close second. I've never gone into coaching thinking of developing the next great D-! or NHL player, but rather the kid who loves to compete and has fun doing so.

Muck,
My post said nothing about getting rid of games, nor did I state the cliché of all about the kids. I was referring to the use of the ice time that had been booked and the refs that had been arranged for the scrimmages that had been planned. At this point it is a losing argument, and I was suggesting getting over it and making good use of the time. As for clarification of “return of investment”, I trust that as a coach you try to make good use of your ice time. My return on investment comment pertains to the hour of ice time that is available and not the thousands of dollars spent on development.
Try as you will to spin my words, I will make very easy for you to understand my position. I believe in spending the time on the ice to improve skill development while having fun. I believe in getting the most of out every min of ice time, thus spending the player’s money as if it were mine. Winning is not everything, but competing and effort are. I believe that games are the reward for the player’s hard work that they put into to practice, and gives the coaches the opportunity to assess where their team’s strength and weaknesses are. Take your Bantams to one practice, completely dedicated to a variety of small area games (start to finish). Make sure the games offer variety, as well as challenge different skills. Of course reward the winners, or punish the losers whatever floats your boat. See how hard they compete; see how much fun they have. And ask them if they want to do it again. If fact, go as far as asking them if they would rather have an hour and a half practice with small area games or scrimmage someone else. Let them decide, it’s their money and their fun. But before you decide to plan an entire practice dedicated to small area games make sure it isn’t just a cross ice game, with no particular purpose or skill….That is why I continue to preach creativity.

CRMiteHockey · Post by **CRMiteHockey** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:22 am

District 10 board meeting tonight at the Forum in Champlin. Now's your chance to bring this up.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:56 am

CRMiteHockey wrote:District 10 board meeting tonight at the Forum in Champlin. Now's your chance to bring this up.

Where in Champlin?
What time does it start?

CRMiteHockey · Post by **CRMiteHockey** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:05 am

elliott70 wrote:
CRMiteHockey wrote:District 10 board meeting tonight at the Forum in Champlin. Now's your chance to bring this up.
Where in Champlin?
What time does it start?

http://www.district10hockey.org/

Next Meeting
@ Champlin Forum
Monday, November 2, 2009, 7:00 pm

It's in a meeting room next to the rink. I believe it also has a lifetime fitness attached to it.

greybeard58 · Post by **greybeard58** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:13 am

The meeting is at the Champlin Forum Ice Arena, large meeting room at 7PM. As I have also stated for the state meetings if you want to be listened to decorum and how you behave is important.

greybeard58 · Post by **greybeard58** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:48 am

The question of the day, Did anyone who disagreed with the scrimmage limit with temporary rosters go to the meeting last night and voice their opinion?

CRMiteHockey · Post by **CRMiteHockey** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:29 am

greybeard58 wrote:The question of the day, Did anyone who disagreed with the scrimmage limit with temporary rosters go to the meeting last night and voice their opinion?

No sir. Not one word was mentioned about scrimmages during the meeting.

HighSchoolHockeyForums.com

Hockey is awesome

Can you have a dialogue