Wisconsin Fire

[O-townClown]

Do you actually know anything about this subject??

Yes.

[Quasar]

["SECoach"]

Why, so people can go to work and say their kid is on a AAA team instead of an A team? On a B2 team instead of a C team?

If you really believe this statement you are far to cynical to be working with young kids... Think about it !!!

Yes, I may be cynical. That comes not from watching a few kids that were held back, but a couple decades of watching young boys and girls with the potential to make the most of their talents, tainted by parents that think there is a better system for my kid. I don't mean to be smug, but the kids that have parents that are always searching for a way to get ahead of the current system, rather than letting them develop their natural god given talents, more often than not, end up failing.

I'll agree that to the parents of "current" future superstars I may sound cynical. This comes from 25 years of watching over zealous parents run past the dreams of their kid so that by the time they reach high school they are more apt to leave the game than excel. They may still play, but they have left the game. Kids that are the age you are debating over are not able to say "dad, will you relax for Christ's sake". They wait until they are about 13 to 16 and then they say, i have really lost interest.

Bottom line? Tell me who in this debate is the parent of a Bantam player. I'll line up for the shots. All of you that want to change the system for your mite or squirt will get a real eye opening after you fight this fight for a few years. The players that should get noticed do. The players that should develop into D1 and NHL players do. No matter where they play. All you are doing is making your kids miserable. Wait until they are old enough to verbalize it.

All efforts to bring "high level" hockey to Minnesota are simply efforts to patronize the loud mouths that dont get it. The high level hockey is already here. Your kid just isnt in it.

I dont' blame this little tiny crowd that says our system sucks and the kids are being held back. The wisdom and refelection will come later. I just believe that in 8 years they will be sitting with a cup of bad coffee watching their son play Junior Gold wishing they would have gone about things differently.

By the way, happy to be back. I can only sit on the sidelines for so long.

Happy to have you back. No one should sit on the sidelines. We may disagree, but I respect your opinion. I am looking at this with a 30 year perspective. I have no kids in the program.. I am just standing up for the few against the many. Your opinions have been formed over many a bad cup of coffee I would imagine. I think most serious people here have said they have no big problems with the current system.. They just want to add another layer. I think it's time for us old coot's to give a little. Don't you ?

[Quasar]

Do you actually know anything about this subject??

Yes.

Good .. So how about an answer?? Got one that works??

[greybeard58]

Here are the numbers for the top 4 states and ties in the NHL draft. Minnesota had 1 down year but have had strong numbers while the other states with strong Tier I programs have had their ups and downs,and before anyone asks I do not have the numbers by rounds.

NHL Draft 2000-2010

2000- 54 American players drafted
Minn.- 12, Mich.-8,New York-6,Mass.-5

2001-41 American players drafted
Minn.-11,Mass.-4, New York-4, Mi.,Cal.&ND-3

2002 - 60 American players drafted
Mass.-14, Minn.-9,Mich.-9,New York-4

2003-56 American players drafted
Minn.-12,Mass.-9,New York-8, Mich.-4

2004-64 American players drafted
Minn.16,Mass.-8, New York&Mich.-8, ILL.-6

2005-60 American players drafted
Minn.-17,Mass.,New York,Mich.- 6 each

2006-61 American players drafted
Minn.-15,New York-10,Mass.-9,Mich.-8

2007-60 American players drafted
Minn.&Mich,-15 each,Conn.-6,New York-5

2008-41 American players drafted
Minn.-11,Mich.-5,Mass.-4,Cal-3

2009-56 American players drafted
Minn.-15,New York-9,Mass.-6, Cal.&Conn.-3 each

2010-57 American players drafted
Minn.-17,Mich.-10,Mass.-7,New York-4

2000-2010 total 613 American players drafted
Minn.- 150,Mich.-77,Mass.-75,New York-67,Cal.-30,ILL-28

[Quasar]

Here are the numbers for the top 4 states and ties in the NHL draft. Minnesota had 1 down year but have had strong numbers while the other states with strong Tier I programs have had their ups and downs,and before anyone asks I do not have the numbers by rounds.

NHL Draft 2000-2010

2000- 54 American players drafted
Minn.- 12, Mich.-8,New York-6,Mass.-5

2001-41 American players drafted
Minn.-11,Mass.-4, New York-4, Mi.,Cal.&ND-3

2002 - 60 American players drafted
Mass.-14, Minn.-9,Mich.-9,New York-4

2003-56 American players drafted
Minn.-12,Mass.-9,New York-8, Mich.-4

2004-64 American players drafted
Minn.16,Mass.-8, New York&Mich.-8, ILL.-6

2005-60 American players drafted
Minn.-17,Mass.,New York,Mich.- 6 each

2006-61 American players drafted
Minn.-15,New York-10,Mass.-9,Mich.-8

2007-60 American players drafted
Minn.&Mich,-15 each,Conn.-6,New York-5

2008-41 American players drafted
Minn.-11,Mich.-5,Mass.-4,Cal-3

2009-56 American players drafted
Minn.-15,New York-9,Mass.-6, Cal.&Conn.-3 each

2010-57 American players drafted
Minn.-17,Mich.-10,Mass.-7,New York-4

2000-2010 total 613 American players drafted
Minn.- 150,Mich.-77,Mass.-75,New York-67,Cal.-30,ILL-28

Thank you for the data.. Looks like the case for the summer hockey theory just got a little stronger.

[O-townClown]

Good .. So how about an answer?? Got one that works??

Do I know why kids are playing for Bernie on the Fire? Yes. I know a few of the reasons that explain it. Not really appropriate to share in the public forum. It is their choice. Do they need to explain themselves to you?

[Quasar]

Good .. So how about an answer?? Got one that works??

Do I know why kids are playing for Bernie on the Fire? Yes. I know a few of the reasons that explain it. Not really appropriate to share in the public forum. It is their choice. Do they need to explain themselves to you?

A perfect cop out ... I don't know any kids playing on the Fire. I don't know Bernie... I just know that a bunch of kids from the Blades and Made are playing on the Fire.

You have deflected a simple question with your supposed inside knowledge. A weak debating position..

I believe the reason is that they want to play Tier 1 hockey...Simple as that!!

Oh ..By the way ..No one has to explain any thing to me..

Least of all you!!

[O-townClown]

Thank you for the data.. Looks like the case for the summer hockey theory just got a little stronger.

Quasar, in the early-to-mid 80s a HS all-star team went to Massachusetts for a Minnesota v. Mass battle. Our kids got beat, soundly. Smoked is probably too strong a word, but it wasn't even. This may have happened more than once.

The explanation at the time was the Minnesota's best HS players were held back by the short Varsity season, game limits, and lack of a year 'round focus. There was even a TV special on it, probably WCCO. Watching a clip of the Massholes practicing was like seeing the Soviets in the 70s. They were the mortal enemy. I don't know was the kids in Massachusetts were doing at the time, but people imagined they were doing things our kids weren't.

Indicative of our state's "inside the box" thinking at the time, people were actually clamoring to let HS teams practice in the fall, spring, and/or summer.

Looking back on this almost 30 years later, how ludicrous does that sound!? We didn't need our kids practicing intact on their HS teams, we simply needed to expand the options that are available.

In some ways I wonder if Minnesota wound up being held back by the municipal rink model. While the $170 you pay for ice is nice, there's no way private rink owners would have simply shut down for the summer! They would have been more creative with their programming and the move to more summer hockey would have happened sooner.

Earlier in this thread I mentioned that just about any summer/off-season program you have today you could find in the Twin Cities 30 years ago. There's just a lot more of it. Braemar has the main arena, but the second rink used to be known as the "Pavillion". They'd open up the side doors, the ice would melt, and it would sit - not used as an ice rink - for probably six months out of the year. That was normal.

Yes, our kids in Minnesota were not playing as much hockey as they could. As a result, our best kids weren't as good as some others you could find. In this case Massachusetts, and judging from the NHL Draft, Michigan too. They weren't turning out as many NCAA players, but guys like Bobby Carpenter and Brian Lawton were American...but not from Minnesota. (How many Top 10 picks did the state have in the 80s?)

Thirty years from now we could easily see the "progressives" have the last laugh and look back at today's "preservationists" like we look at those who thought the earth was flat or the sun revolved around us. Yes, MAHA thinking is decidedly in-the-box.

Just please don't cite Minnesota's inability to produce top players as the reason things need to change. As has been shown in this thread and others, there are a ton of kids playing through the summer and into each spring via channels other than MSHSL or regulated association hockey.

I don't hear many arguments that summer hockey, what some call AAA season, is a bad thing. It is a little hairy because it is only regulated by market forces, but it seems to work.

Coupled with the regimented hierarchy of association hockey, the two go hand in hand, providing the Yin and Yang to complete the youth hockey landscape.

Yin and Yin and Yang and Yang probably leaves something to be desired.

[O-townClown]

A weak debating position..

Believe what you want to believe. Yes, they obviously want to play for a Tier I-registered team based in Wisconsin and not an association team in Minnesota. That is the decision made as a result of several factors, which vary from person to person, family to family.

A debating position? WTH is that? I know some of these circumstances and not sharing that on HSHF.com, which is not an approprate venue, puts me in a debating position?

I'm not debating anything of the sort. Kids playing for the Fire. Good on ya'.

[Quasar]

Yes, they obviously want to play for a Tier I-registered team based in Wisconsin and not an association team in Minnesota.

That is all I was saying ... The rest is just conjecture.

[O-townClown]

NPC, it is that tone and that approach that needs to be taken. When someone laments the fact that one kid (theirs) isn't well served or they throw out (erroneous) facts that Minnesota isn't turning out its fair share of strong players it is hard to get a lot of traction behind that.

[Quasar]

Nobody is asking MN Hockey to throw out the association model. All people are doing (more than just a couple of crazies in the corner as SECoach implied) is asking for MN Hockey to try something. We (the crazies) are even saying "you regulate it, you control it, we will pay for it, just try it, please." I think that the fact that the summer AAA season has gotten hairy and sort of turned into the wild west of hockey is another good reason for MN Hockey to get involved. As I have said, change always happens, whether or not you want it to. Do you (MN Hockey) want to help guide, control and regulate the change or do you want to stay stuck in a rut and get ran over by it when you can't get out of the rut. Personally the thought of somebody in Iowa saying "Welcome to the state of hockey" scares the crap out of me, it could happen. Same goes for MI, MA, CO, CA, FL, etc. Pick a state, right now, for now MN is "The State of Hockey". Let's try to keep it that way by allowing things like Tier 1 to be tried and either proven or dis-proven rather than hiding our heads in the sand, talking about the wisdom we picked up 25 years ago playing hockey in the good old days and then getting ran over by some guy driving a bus with out of state plates on it. I do not have the wisdom, knowledge or stats to lay out a plan. It sounds and looks like others do, they have a thought out plan or at least an outline, they know about the pitfalls and rough spots, now lets listen to them and try to make it work better here in MN.

NPC ... I'm with you.. I don't have the answers, but I will bet if anyone really wanted to try they could get them.
I also agree that it's only a matter of time. Look at what is happening in summer hockey. If that's not a clue, I guess nothing ever will be.

[Quasar]

NPC, it is that tone and that approach that needs to be taken. When someone laments the fact that one kid (theirs) isn't well served or they throw out (erroneous) facts that Minnesota isn't turning out its fair share of strong players it is hard to get a lot of traction behind that.

Which is why up front I tell you that my kid is not going to gain any benefit from Tier 1. By the time a Tier 1 system could get going the kid that I have that __might__ have benefited from it will have passed by the window. This is not an argument on my part to benefit my kid, I do not lament the fact that my kid got screwed so we need to change the system. The system is changing though and even though I do not have the ability to lay out a plan for where I want it to go and how I want to get it there, I can tell you where I do not want it to go. After all, I will have grand kids some day and I want to go to the rinks, drink bad coffee and remember the good old days. Hopefully by then somebody will have figured out a way to stay warm in Fryberger.

A perfect summation of today's activity on this subject.

With that I'll say Goodnight !

[WhosPuckIsItAnyways?]

Bottom line? Tell me who in this debate is the parent of a Bantam player. I'll line up for the shots.

By the way, happy to be back. I can only sit on the sidelines for so long.

Happy to have you back. No one should sit on the sidelines. We may disagree, but I respect your opinion. I am looking at this with a 30 year perspective. I have no kids in the program.. I am just standing up for the few against the many. Your opinions have been formed over many a bad cup of coffee I would imagine. I think most serious people here have said they have no big problems with the current system.. They just want to add another layer. I think it's time for us old coot's to give a little. Don't you ?

Good response. By the way, my kid is Bantam ... he will be playing Tier 1 Hockey again this year ... unfortunately NOT in his home State. That's unfortunate ...

Anything that Minnesota Hockey does or does not do in terms of Tier 1 Hockey will too late for him to benefit from, but the benefits and wonderful experiences he has had that cannot be duplicated with Association hockey shouldn't be kept from children of Minnesota.

If they don't want those experiences that's one thing ... but there are those that do, and there is a faction rallying against them, doing whatever it takes to deny them this opportunity ... that's wrong ... let these families play and pay for the Hockey they think is best for them ... they don't (we certainly didn't) need Big Brother telling them what's best ...

Minnesota Hockey holds the keys to the Tier 1 experience for Minnesota children and it's time they unlocked the door ...

Again, if it's just bodies needed to work out the logistics I am happy to volunteer ... someone said earlier they've been on both sides of the fence, but this really an octagon with 8 sides, parent, player, coach & administrator both for Tier 1 organizations and Associations ... I have been on 7 of the 8 sides of this equation. I know first hand the ups and downs, hills and valleys ... it may not be easy as flicking a switch, but to suggest it is not do-able simply demonstrates a lack of understanding of the issues. It certainly IS do-able. It may be too late for my boy but it might not be to late for yours ...

[SECoach]

Humor me and give me a short recap of what needs Minnesota Hockey is not meeting. Bullet points would be nice. Thanks.

[goldy313]

Somewhat sarcastically .......

In a nutshell there is kid who through his father posting on here is not fullfilled enough by association hockey and wants more. It's not the parent (cough cough) who wants more it's the kid and we should do whatever our kids want because we owe that to them and, after all, these are lifelong memories association hockey is depriving of and finally the denial of AAA hockey in Minnesota is depriving this kid of a worthwhile existance and will probably turn him into an axe murderer or something like that and it will be all MN Hockey's and the those of us against AAA hockey's fault. God save our souls.

[WhosPuckIsItAnyways?]

Humor me and give me a short recap of what needs Minnesota Hockey is not meeting. Bullet points would be nice. Thanks.

Start List ...

* Need to have option of playing Tier 1 Winter Hockey with the rest of the World

... End List

[HockeyDad41]

Somewhat sarcastically .......

In a nutshell there is kid who through his father posting on here is not fullfilled enough by association hockey and wants more. It's not the parent (cough cough) who wants more it's the kid and we should do whatever our kids want because we owe that to them and, after all, these are lifelong memories association hockey is depriving of and finally the denial of AAA hockey in Minnesota is depriving this kid of a worthwhile existance and will probably turn him into an axe murderer or something like that and it will be all MN Hockey's and the those of us against AAA hockey's fault. God save our souls.

That is so totally me. My kids don't even like hockey.

[Ugottobekiddingme]

I'll support your opinion because it is obviously based on actual "hands on" experience within dealing with MN hockey. Stay on the high road because if a clown from Florida feels one's opinion has more relevance, than I am going to buy into this 14 trillion dollar hole I'm told I should pay for. Bottom line...MN hockey has lost touch with reality and doesn't want to listen to alternative opinions that might help the program...but some feel it necessary to continue with the status quo. I always love it when someone 1750 miles away knows more about a hockey program administered in my state.

[getoveryourbadself]

Somewhat sarcastically .......

In a nutshell there is kid who through his father posting on here is not fullfilled enough by association hockey and wants more. It's not the parent (cough cough) who wants more it's the kid and we should do whatever our kids want because we owe that to them and, after all, these are lifelong memories association hockey is depriving of and finally the denial of AAA hockey in Minnesota is depriving this kid of a worthwhile existance and will probably turn him into an axe murderer or something like that and it will be all MN Hockey's and the those of us against AAA hockey's fault. God save our souls.

Don't you just love it.............this was exactly what I was referring to. You try to have a reasonable debate (ie., look at all sides of the issue), but disagree with some yahoos and they start to accuse you of being a malcontent who should just run for the board if they want to complain, an overbearing, unfit parent that drives children to become axe murderers. Give me a break....is that all you "got" or do you actually have a brain in your head that you could use to have a reasonable post?

[blueblood]

You guys need to show up at MN hockey mid-winter and annual meetings and express your thoughts to the people who run the ship.

Get on the schedule, make a powerpoint presentation by outlining the format, costs, pro's and con's; etc.

BTW - MN soccer has this "development" model is called "Premier". There are 6 teams in the state, starting at age 14, that the "top" players can tryout for regardless of where you live. (And no may kids don't play premier soccer or HS hockey. They played Junior Gold like NPC's offspring and had a blast...)

[goldy313]

I'm not against AAA hockey, it's just the best proposals for it come under the shade of bad association hockey or displeasure with it. Come up a proposal, attend meetings, the board members listen to it's members whether they act or not is really up to you. Posting on a message board does little to accomplish your aim of getting AAA hockey.

I'll even start you....

Who picks the teams? Will it be an open tryout with independant evaluators or the models currently used? Again i'll go back to the country club menatlity that's in many of these AAA programs nationwide. A mode llike the Ellite League or better yet NTDP, even with it's faults is probably better than the current system of AAA.

Who pays for the high expense fot the players good enough but not wealthy enough to play AAA? A surcharge on every kid in in Mn Hockey? Private donors? Sponsers? Or do we just ignore those without the means to pay?

Who do these AAA teams play? Do you force the association teams to play them or do these AAA teams have to go to Chicago, Detroit, etc. for their games?

How do you foster a nonadversarial relationship with associations who lose players?

The Fire model is a mess and because of that why should Mn Hockey go to AAA? When that's a model people to point to they're not doing a very good job of making their case which is unfortunate because there is in my opinion, a good case to be made for AAA hockey, it's just nobody has had the forthought to work it all out just yet. It won't be an overnight process, things move slowly at Mn Hockey.

An attitude of my kid, my kid, my kid won't work. It has to be an attitude of how can we make this better for everyone, not just my kid, or my AAA team, or my association but every kid AAA to House, every association from Roseau to Redwood Falls.

[Quasar]

I'm not against AAA hockey, it's just the best proposals for it come under the shade of bad association hockey or displeasure with it. Come up a proposal, attend meetings, the board members listen to it's members whether they act or not is really up to you. Posting on a message board does little to accomplish your aim of getting AAA hockey.

I'll even start you....

Who picks the teams? Will it be an open tryout with independant evaluators or the models currently used? Again i'll go back to the country club menatlity that's in many of these AAA programs nationwide. A mode llike the Ellite League or better yet NTDP, even with it's faults is probably better than the current system of AAA.

Who pays for the high expense fot the players good enough but not wealthy enough to play AAA? A surcharge on every kid in in Mn Hockey? Private donors? Sponsers? Or do we just ignore those without the means to pay?

Who do these AAA teams play? Do you force the association teams to play them or do these AAA teams have to go to Chicago, Detroit, etc. for their games?

How do you foster a nonadversarial relationship with associations who lose players?

The Fire model is a mess and because of that why should Mn Hockey go to AAA? When that's a model people to point to they're not doing a very good job of making their case which is unfortunate because there is in my opinion, a good case to be made for AAA hockey, it's just nobody has had the forthought to work it all out just yet. It won't be an overnight process, things move slowly at Mn Hockey.

An attitude of my kid, my kid, my kid won't work. It has to be an attitude of how can we make this better for everyone, not just my kid, or my AAA team, or my association but every kid AAA to House, every association from Roseau to Redwood Falls.

Rather than refute the points in your thoughtful post, I will try to get you to understand what NPC is trying to say. There is a big steam engine called progress coming down the track. Let me make my own view clear..It is not up to us to design the Minnesota hockey program for the future!! It is up to the powers that be, and want to be. Because just like the totally protected high school league, when the time comes they will have to act. The Elite High school league was formed because the talented kids were leaving for Jr's. As the same thing happens in the youth leagues (Associations) something will have to be done, or there will be no associations as we know them today. And the bigger problem is that people like you don't understand that this program is not for everyone. Just like the High school Elite program is not for everyone. The association teams serve the needs of 90% of the kids playing today. Like the special kids playing in the Elite High school league, the 10% of gifted kids in youth hockey need a place to play, or they will leave..I just don't know why that is so hard to understand!! or perhaps accept is a better use of words. When the revenue stream starts to shrink the powers that be at the time will react. Let's all hope they don't wait until they ruin one of the best hockey programs ever!!!

[greybeard58]

The problems the Fire has are with WAHA and not Mn Hockey. Unfortunately for them in the past some members of their organization chose to ignore some registration rules of USA Hockey bringing unwanted scrutiny to WAHA by both the Central District and USA Hockey. This in turn forced WAHA to act. The past couple of years are the results of what WAHA has put in place; the reclassification from Tier I to Unclassified is just one of the actions and the denying of the Fire organization to participate in State and National tournaments is another.

In reality the Fire have been registered for the past couple of years as Unclassified which by definition of WAHA by-laws is a Tier II level team and not eligible to compete for a state or national title, but were allowed to compete against other teams at the Tier I level. If you doubt this please contact the appropriate WAHA representative for clarification.

If Mn Hockey were to make the changes for Tier I separate teams, changes will have to be made to the governing documents of Mn Hockey first. Those changes will require a 2/3 majority vote of the board members present at the time of the vote. I believe there are now 29 voting members on the board, of the 29 votes there are 13 District Directors who represent (2009 numbers) 53,399 youth and girls players and 8,995 coaches. The District Directors are elected by the members in their District where the Associations cast their membership numbers in the vote. The District Directors not only represent but vote what is their Association’s best interest. In reality the Mn players who registered with the fire are considered WAHA members.

As for Tier I level teams, there was a proposal a few years ago that would have created a Bantam level team from each District. The tryouts would be run by each District and it was supposed to play multiple games one weekend each month with games starting in late October and ending in February. If this was an attempt to have a tournament and send the winner to the national tournament I am not sure. There were a number of concerns such as players being on 2 rosters, maximum numbers from each association allowed to try out and what affect would be on the Association teams involved in having players on the District team.

There is another possibility that since the Advanced 15 program is already in place, the 102 players that make it to St Cloud could also be placed to create 6 Tier I teams with alternates replacing those that chose to play High school but again governing documents would have to be changed and without the support of the District Directors the change will not happen.

If anyone truly wants to make the change people will have to as “Goldy” stated attend the meetings, have concrete proposals in place with factual numbers, and including just how this will help Minnesota Hockey but also how this change will also benefit the Associations. Until people get off of their backsides and do the work, the change will not happen.

[Quasar]

I have a question..

We now have Minnesota made and Minnesota Blades choice programs that are up to the Peewee level. What happens in the next 5 years when they are up to Bantam, and there are the Icemen, the legacy, the Raging Bulls etc etc. They will then have their own league. This is still America so I guess they will be able to do what ever they want. Do you suppose that if the numbers of this league greatly surpassed the numbers of the MN Hockey league, that USA Hockey would turn their back on the new league?

As for the Fire.. They have never been able to overcome the resistance from the establishment. Not withstanding mistakes made, they are chugging up a steep grade.. The key to all of this is the gazillion dollars being spent every summer. This is not conjecture.. It's actually happening...And I will restate my position that it is up to Minnesota Hockey to solve this problem..

I would like some answers to this question.