"Poor GM execution"? The Twins have weathered Ponson and Ortiz,....and are still in the race. If the Ace (GMtanna) would have won a few more games,.....like an ace,.....the Twins may be near a three-way tie for first.
The season is long. Does it hurt that much to gamble early on with a few washed up vets? What if they start Garza and Baker right away,....things don't go that well,....and they loose confidence early,.....then what do you do? It may be more beneficial in the long run,....to send them to AAA, to have some success, to work there way on,.....and then produce when they get here.
Maybe TR knows axactly what he is doing.
Twins 29-29, All Square & Ready To Go On A Tear
Moderators: Mitch Hawker, east hockey, karl(east)
Re: "poor GM execution"?
Way to play on both sides of the fence! In one post you're stating that TR knows what he's doing, the other is that they can't win with the pitching the have. Well, does he know what he's doing or not?Knowlzee wrote:"Poor GM execution"? The Twins have weathered Ponson and Ortiz,....and are still in the race. If the Ace (GMtanna) would have won a few more games,.....like an ace,.....the Twins may be near a three-way tie for first.
The season is long. Does it hurt that much to gamble early on with a few washed up vets? What if they start Garza and Baker right away,....things don't go that well,....and they loose confidence early,.....then what do you do? It may be more beneficial in the long run,....to send them to AAA, to have some success, to work there way on,.....and then produce when they get here.
Maybe TR knows axactly what he is doing.
Santana's right when he said that they've been preaching "the future" for 5 years - when exactly is the future then? I don't think anybody questions his ability to find and develop talent, but at some point you have have make something happen. If he knew exactly what he was doing, they would have won (or at least advanced to) a World Series... or at least more than 1 ALCS.
Ace needs to win games.
Not sure why, I waste my time,....but here we go again. Govs, are you related to the watcher? I will repeat for you.
GMtanna, needs to shut his mouth and pitch,....not just accumulate stats, but pitch,.....WIN games down the stretch, like an Ace (Byleven, Viola, Morris, even Radke, before him). You don't win a World Series without your ace at his best.
We can win (over 0.500) with the pitching we have. I have no idea if it is enough to win a World Series. If I remember in '87, we had primarily Blyleven, Viola, and Les Straker, starting,.....it turned out to be enough. We won't find out until October.
If we don't win a World Series,...go ahead,....blame TR, if you want. Personally, I think he has done a fine job,....just like always. They are competetive,....another World Series would be great, but......alot of teams have not been as consistently competative as the Twins the last few years, under TR.
Bottom line,.....the Twins this year, will go as far as the ace takes them. Recently, he hasn't got it done,....and been talkin besides. GMtanna needs to get it done on the mound,......lead'em,.....Garza and Baker are ready to support,.....and Boof and Silva can help, but......they need the ace.
GMtanna, needs to shut his mouth and pitch,....not just accumulate stats, but pitch,.....WIN games down the stretch, like an Ace (Byleven, Viola, Morris, even Radke, before him). You don't win a World Series without your ace at his best.
We can win (over 0.500) with the pitching we have. I have no idea if it is enough to win a World Series. If I remember in '87, we had primarily Blyleven, Viola, and Les Straker, starting,.....it turned out to be enough. We won't find out until October.
If we don't win a World Series,...go ahead,....blame TR, if you want. Personally, I think he has done a fine job,....just like always. They are competetive,....another World Series would be great, but......alot of teams have not been as consistently competative as the Twins the last few years, under TR.
Bottom line,.....the Twins this year, will go as far as the ace takes them. Recently, he hasn't got it done,....and been talkin besides. GMtanna needs to get it done on the mound,......lead'em,.....Garza and Baker are ready to support,.....and Boof and Silva can help, but......they need the ace.
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Can't Never Tried
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Re: Ace needs to win games.
Knowlzee wrote:Govs, are you related to the watcher?
Ouch
Re: Ace needs to win games.
rofl... Nice line! No, not the one about being related to Circle... the one about Santana needing to WIN games down the stretch. You must be referring to that 41-4 record after the All-Star break for the last 4 years, right? Or is it the 2.63 ERA? Let's all reflect on those glory days and see what that got the club... 3 Divisional Series losses, and 1 season of nothing.Knowlzee wrote:Not sure why, I waste my time,....but here we go again. Govs, are you related to the watcher? I will repeat for you.
GMtanna, needs to shut his mouth and pitch,....not just accumulate stats, but pitch,.....WIN games down the stretch, like an Ace (Byleven, Viola, Morris, even Radke, before him). You don't win a World Series without your ace at his best.
We can win (over 0.500) with the pitching we have. I have no idea if it is enough to win a World Series. If I remember in '87, we had primarily Blyleven, Viola, and Les Straker, starting,.....it turned out to be enough. We won't find out until October.
If we don't win a World Series,...go ahead,....blame TR, if you want. Personally, I think he has done a fine job,....just like always. They are competetive,....another World Series would be great, but......alot of teams have not been as consistently competative as the Twins the last few years, under TR.
Bottom line,.....the Twins this year, will go as far as the ace takes them. Recently, he hasn't got it done,....and been talkin besides. GMtanna needs to get it done on the mound,......lead'em,.....Garza and Baker are ready to support,.....and Boof and Silva can help, but......they need the ace.
What about after the break this year? 1-3 with a 3.82 ERA. How many runs did they get him in the 3 losses? 2, 4 and 2. So, by your rationale, as long as Santana can hold each team to 2.6 runs a game, Bud should start polishing the ol' Commissioner's Trophy, pack it up, and DHL the sucker to 34 Kirby Puckett Place. OFFENSE BE DAMNED! ALL ABOARD THE S.S. SANTANA!
I will blame TR. It's clear that the pitching has been there for the last 5 years... where are the bats? It seems plain as day that if the pitching is there, and the defense is there but this team can't over the hump something's missing? hmmm, what could it be? I can see it, can TR? And no... Rondell White isn't the answer.
You're obviously fine with mediocrity (as evidenced by the points you were making with your posts). It's a shame the rest of us have to play along with you and TR. I hope like hell they win, but it's the same club they had last year (minus a clutch playoff pitcher) - it wasn't enough then, and unfortunately, it's not enough now.
I've got to quit doing this...
Yeah, the run support hasn't been what you'd like, but 1-3 with a 3.82 ain't what I want from my ace, especially when he's been lights out this time of year in the past. When two very good 2nd year pitchers have to pick up the slack like this past weekend because last year's Cy Young winner couldn't hold a lead, I think it's time for someone to concentrate on pitching.
And I don't think TR is above criticism, I'd say he's had an off year this year. He hasn't brought in any bats to jumpstart the lineup and he's had to turn over two guys in the rotation because he tried to start the season with two hasbeen pitchers.
And I don't think TR is above criticism, I'd say he's had an off year this year. He hasn't brought in any bats to jumpstart the lineup and he's had to turn over two guys in the rotation because he tried to start the season with two hasbeen pitchers.
Govs has put a lot of words in my mouth in his last post. Since the topic is baseball,.....going to try communicate my points at third time (three strikes, I am out).
1) Santanna needs to perform,....not talk,....perform. Frankly, no players should say the things he said (in his defense, emotions may have been a part). Players should play,....coaches coach,....GM's manage,.... owner's make money,....and fans post in the cafe.
2) TR does a fine job overall. Sure, maybe he could have done more (or differently), but he does fine. We have had a pretty good team in this town to watch for several years. Often, we may forget that he has a budget,....also, every other GM, also wants to improve their ballclub,....finally you don't get players for free. Sometimes, there may not be a move to make. Should he panic, and make one anyway, to satisfy some fans. Personally, I don't think so. In general, TR has done OK.
P.S. Just to clarify, all that junk about,....Santanna in the past,....."ol' Commissioner' Trophy",......"OFFENSE BE DAMNED!",......."fine with mediocrity",....are the Govs statements,......and certainly not my sentiments.
1) Santanna needs to perform,....not talk,....perform. Frankly, no players should say the things he said (in his defense, emotions may have been a part). Players should play,....coaches coach,....GM's manage,.... owner's make money,....and fans post in the cafe.
2) TR does a fine job overall. Sure, maybe he could have done more (or differently), but he does fine. We have had a pretty good team in this town to watch for several years. Often, we may forget that he has a budget,....also, every other GM, also wants to improve their ballclub,....finally you don't get players for free. Sometimes, there may not be a move to make. Should he panic, and make one anyway, to satisfy some fans. Personally, I don't think so. In general, TR has done OK.
P.S. Just to clarify, all that junk about,....Santanna in the past,....."ol' Commissioner' Trophy",......"OFFENSE BE DAMNED!",......."fine with mediocrity",....are the Govs statements,......and certainly not my sentiments.
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HShockeywatcher
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Knowlzee, you're turning into packerboy.
The numbers are there, Santana is performing. Him talking is just like KG's situation. And look, he's not happy and got traded because of it. You can say what you want, but when the #1 player on a team is unhappy, he can talk. If Farve, Gretzky, Jordan, KG, etc, etc are unhappy, they should let people know. It'd be one thing if his numbers aren't there, but they are. You can ignore my posts with the numbers and not look them up if you'd like, but the only thing Santana lacks in his stats is wins and the only thing on the field he lacks compared to others is a supporting cast.
Bottom line, pitchers don't win games, they provide the opportunity for a team to win. And if your team doesn't take that opportunity, you not only have a right to be upset, but the team doesn't win.
The numbers are there, Santana is performing. Him talking is just like KG's situation. And look, he's not happy and got traded because of it. You can say what you want, but when the #1 player on a team is unhappy, he can talk. If Farve, Gretzky, Jordan, KG, etc, etc are unhappy, they should let people know. It'd be one thing if his numbers aren't there, but they are. You can ignore my posts with the numbers and not look them up if you'd like, but the only thing Santana lacks in his stats is wins and the only thing on the field he lacks compared to others is a supporting cast.
Bottom line, pitchers don't win games, they provide the opportunity for a team to win. And if your team doesn't take that opportunity, you not only have a right to be upset, but the team doesn't win.
Got it... no leaders, just followers. Players should be happy with sneaking into the playoffs and falling in the first round. GMs should be content on keeping their teams status quo from year to year without input from players or those on the "front line". They're paid to play... not give a damn.Knowlzee wrote:going to try communicate my points at third time (three strikes, I am out).
1) Santanna needs to perform,....not talk,....perform. Frankly, no players should say the things he said (in his defense, emotions may have been a part). Players should play,....coaches coach,....GM's manage,.... owner's make money,....and fans post in the cafe.
Check.
Got it... TR is good judge of pitching depth and has done a good job of hanging onto it. He puts competitive teams on the field and is fine with it - doesn't have any interest in improving it... also fine with that. Likes hoarding pitching talent to the point where he will have 9 prospects competing for 5 starting spots next year... 5 spots for guys who will probably lose several games in which their teammates will get them 0, 1, or 2 runs. And while budget concerns are always there, we should happy that the budget is being spent on Sidney Ponson, Ramon Ortiz, Lew Ford, and Rondell White, rather than one real player than can make an impact.Knowlzee wrote:2) TR does a fine job overall. Sure, maybe he could have done more (or differently), but he does fine. We have had a pretty good team in this town to watch for several years. Often, we may forget that he has a budget,....also, every other GM, also wants to improve their ballclub,....finally you don't get players for free. Sometimes, there may not be a move to make. Should he panic, and make one anyway, to satisfy some fans. Personally, I don't think so. In general, TR has done OK.
Knowlzee is fine with "OK" (defined as "adequate but unexceptional or unremarkable"; tolerable... weird. That almost sounds like mediocre... sorry about "putting words in your mouth").
Check.
Got it... if you say so!Knowlzee wrote:
P.S. Just to clarify, all that junk about,....Santanna in the past,....."ol' Commissioner' Trophy",......"OFFENSE BE DAMNED!",......."fine with mediocrity",....are the Govs statements,......and certainly not my sentiments.
Also of note, Knowlzee can't spell S-A-N-T-A-N-A.Check.
Way to go Knowlzee and Chrisk. Way to straighten these guys out while I was away.
Look, no one is saying that GMtana isn't a good pitcher. But Knowlzee, ChrisK and I are pointing out the 800 pound gorilla in the room which is: HE AINT DOIN THE JOB THIS YEAR.
He has consistently not shut down the opposition when his team needs him to. Quality start? Oh sure thats there but there is no QS column in the standings.
Quality starts dont chnge Ls into Ws. Take the ball and shut them down when your team is playng good D but not hitting. Thats what Ace's do.
In other words...shut up and pitch...Mr. GMtana.
Look, no one is saying that GMtana isn't a good pitcher. But Knowlzee, ChrisK and I are pointing out the 800 pound gorilla in the room which is: HE AINT DOIN THE JOB THIS YEAR.
He has consistently not shut down the opposition when his team needs him to. Quality start? Oh sure thats there but there is no QS column in the standings.
Quality starts dont chnge Ls into Ws. Take the ball and shut them down when your team is playng good D but not hitting. Thats what Ace's do.
In other words...shut up and pitch...Mr. GMtana.
After making a push to within 4.5 games this weekend the Twins have taken two losses in a row dropping them back to 6.5 games.
Tonight Johan takes the mound, according to a preview of the game he's had a 4.85 ERA over the last four games but he's had a lot of success against the Royals. This is a game that he needs to take in hand and will the team to victory, whatever it takes. That's what's expected of the best pitcher in baseball, fair or not.
If he doesn't come through, do you think Terry Ryan will call him out through the media?
Tonight Johan takes the mound, according to a preview of the game he's had a 4.85 ERA over the last four games but he's had a lot of success against the Royals. This is a game that he needs to take in hand and will the team to victory, whatever it takes. That's what's expected of the best pitcher in baseball, fair or not.
If he doesn't come through, do you think Terry Ryan will call him out through the media?
GMtana should leave the analysis of TR's performance to the columnists and fans and pundits who know what they are talking about...people like the minnhock posters.
A player criticizing a GM with a small market budget who has put together a team that has been in the playoffs 4 of the last 5 years isnt leadership. Its stupid.
Let us do that.
This team is having a bad offensive year. It isnt so much that they need another guy or 2 , they do, but whats with the guys that they've got?
When did they last hit a HR?
Should GMtana be calling out Morneau for his 0 for 17 slump? Would that be leadership?
Shut up and pitch like the Ace you claim you are.
Thats how you lead.
A player criticizing a GM with a small market budget who has put together a team that has been in the playoffs 4 of the last 5 years isnt leadership. Its stupid.
Let us do that.
This team is having a bad offensive year. It isnt so much that they need another guy or 2 , they do, but whats with the guys that they've got?
When did they last hit a HR?
Should GMtana be calling out Morneau for his 0 for 17 slump? Would that be leadership?
Shut up and pitch like the Ace you claim you are.
Thats how you lead.
Well, don't skew it too much here... Santana didn't call out TR directly - he kept referring to "they" - possibly meaning TR, possibly the Pohlads, possibly others. He was clearly upset that a deal wasn't made, but he implied that it was a systematic problem.ChrisK wrote:
If he doesn't come through, do you think Terry Ryan will call him out through the media?
So will TR call out the pitching through the media if they don't some through? Yep... he calls out problems all the time (doesn't necessarily do much to fix them, but calls them out).
This has been a combined effort gentlemen.
Ryan has drafted and traded well. He has not been very lucky in the free agent market.
The players have pitched well and at times hit well enough. Well enough last year to win 96 games and a division.
Does Ryan need to add another player and has he failed in these efforts. Absolutely.
But GMtana and the hitters that they do have arent getting the job done either.
I dont care what the stats are. We dont accumulate stats, divide them by 162 and then see who plays in October. We see who has the most wins. Games are not won by stats.
They are won by guys dong what they have to do when they have to do it. The Twins as a team arent dong that this year and that includes Mr GMtana.
Ryan has drafted and traded well. He has not been very lucky in the free agent market.
The players have pitched well and at times hit well enough. Well enough last year to win 96 games and a division.
Does Ryan need to add another player and has he failed in these efforts. Absolutely.
But GMtana and the hitters that they do have arent getting the job done either.
I dont care what the stats are. We dont accumulate stats, divide them by 162 and then see who plays in October. We see who has the most wins. Games are not won by stats.
They are won by guys dong what they have to do when they have to do it. The Twins as a team arent dong that this year and that includes Mr GMtana.
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Irishmans Shanty
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I'm not going to insult any of you fine Twins fans by continuing to post a Wildcard leaderboard. I am now of the belief that the Wildcard Ship has sailed...directly to the mouth of the Hudson River, that is unless it heads north to Boston. Like it or not, the Yankees are back, at least the bats are and they will be more than enough to carry whomever they decide to pitch.
I don't know what is harder to believe, the way the Twins hit or that they are 6.5 games back. As stated above, the wildcard is done, but the division isn't. Now I know they've only scored one run in two games but this is the time of year where every loss seems to seal your fate and every win is the beginning of a tear. If the season wasn't over two days ago when they were 4.5 games out, it surely can't be over today. Hit the Boofin ball, take down a team that is -13 and then worry about Thursday on Thursday.
I don't know what is harder to believe, the way the Twins hit or that they are 6.5 games back. As stated above, the wildcard is done, but the division isn't. Now I know they've only scored one run in two games but this is the time of year where every loss seems to seal your fate and every win is the beginning of a tear. If the season wasn't over two days ago when they were 4.5 games out, it surely can't be over today. Hit the Boofin ball, take down a team that is -13 and then worry about Thursday on Thursday.
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State Champ 97
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Two weeks ago I probably would've said yes - depending on the cost. This is one instance where I agree that TR can't give up a quality arm - not for a 2 month rent-a-player. If they keep going down the path they're currently on for another couple of games, and it may be too late anyway.State Champ 97 wrote:Tell me if this makes sense:
Mike Piazza can be had very cheaply right now. Yes he is at the end of his career. But, he could DH for the Twins and be an emergency catcher if Redmond or Mauer go down.
I'm sure salary would play a part here but he has cleared waivers and he can still hit.
It's been widely reported that Piazza has no interest in coming here anyway. I hope they don't deal for a guy that's just going to whine and complain (like everybody's favorite, GMtana
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HShockeywatcher
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Pitchers can only do so much. His ERA is better than most other pitchers with as many wins as he has. Most of them give up way more runs and their offenses just win the game for them.
So, what all you are saying is the offense shouldn't matter? That even when he only gets 1 or 2 runs of run support he should just pull a miracle out of no where and pitch a shut out everytime he pitches? I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but that sounds to me like what you're saying. Sure, he did better last year. Sure, he's having an off year. But him on an off year is better than Sabathia and Carmona, to name two. I'd take that over them any day. Pitching well doesn't solve the run support issue anyway you slice it.
So, what all you are saying is the offense shouldn't matter? That even when he only gets 1 or 2 runs of run support he should just pull a miracle out of no where and pitch a shut out everytime he pitches? I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but that sounds to me like what you're saying. Sure, he did better last year. Sure, he's having an off year. But him on an off year is better than Sabathia and Carmona, to name two. I'd take that over them any day. Pitching well doesn't solve the run support issue anyway you slice it.
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HShockeywatcher
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grindiangrad-80
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HShockeywatcher
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