Tier 1 now in MN

[elliott70]

Sounds like the MN Tier 1 teams' seasons would end at the end of September - no season, no team, no roster. Then, effectively, another season would begin in March. I'm sure there'll be rules about not practicing together during the hiatus, etc.

Sorry brother but you are wrong here.... See the rosters for the national team are due December 31st and you cannot make changes to it after that date and you cannot be double rostered at that point. See technically you could skirt this rule for all the players on the teams that do not advance out of the fall playoffs you proposed because they can "transfer" back to Tier 2 before the December 31st roster cutoff, its kind of taking adavantage of a loophole that was never intended but it can be done. However, the team that advances from the fall playoff and intends to take on Schattuck in the spring District playoff and potentially advances to nationals, yea the players on that team WILL NOT have the option of playing association hockey as they CANNOT be rostered on a Tier 2 team (ie association team) and the Tier 1 team that intends to go to nationals simultaneaously. Can't happen. They can play for their high school though so atleast they have an option and I am sure those players will "have a spot" on their high school teams.... Elliot your a smart guy with a lot of insight but we've had B&A down here in WI for a LONG time and this rule I know by heart and it's definitive as it currently stands (though we all know things change). The roster you are on when rosters are due for submission on December 31st is the team roster that are part of, no if's and's or but's about it with how it is worded currently.... Just like our 8th graders down here that tryout for and play for Team Wisconsin, they CANNOT go back and play winter Tier 2 association hockey, they cannot go to another Tier 1 AAA club, and for us they can't even play high school because here 8th graders cannot play high school hockey like you can in MN, hence why it is soooo very rare for an 8th grader to play TW even if they are good enough, they don't want to give up playing in the winter even for that usually.... this one I am 100% sure of my friend.

JSR, you were not in the room in Florida or in Minneapolis. This problem is being resolved.

[InigoMontoya]

this one I am 100% sure of my friend.

I'm just going to save this one, for future reference.

[Mouse in the corner]

CLARIFICATION

this is how it is to work as of right now. Details are still being worked on but this is what has been proposed:

Everything will be under MH (no private tier 1 teams)
14U will be by district with certain districts combining (ex. 15 & 16 combined).
There will be 8 tier 1 teams (plus Shattuck). They will play in the late summer/fall with a play-off to determine the winner. The winner will come back in the spring to play Shattuck to send a team to Nationals.

16U & 18U will be by high school sections per the HP program. 8 teams at each level with a fall play-off and winner playing in the spring against Shattuck.

(Something similar on the girls side of it.)

It was brought up that fair and transparent evaluations need to be done in selecting teams. HP is not always perceived as having this.
A lot of details still to be worked out.

This question may have already been answered, but.

Will the teams be formed based on birth year, or MN Hockey age cut-offs?

I see those words and have a flash of cash flowing. Will be very interesting to see how this is done. Does fair mean that it is not fair that a different kid gets my kid's spot??? This is gonna be just as bad as the "elite" league is, probably just cost more money.

[Froggy Richards]

Sounds like the MN Tier 1 teams' seasons would end at the end of September - no season, no team, no roster. Then, effectively, another season would begin in March. I'm sure there'll be rules about not practicing together during the hiatus, etc.

Sorry brother but you are wrong here.... See the rosters for the national team are due December 31st and you cannot make changes to it after that date and you cannot be double rostered at that point. See technically you could skirt this rule for all the players on the teams that do not advance out of the fall playoffs you proposed because they can "transfer" back to Tier 2 before the December 31st roster cutoff, its kind of taking adavantage of a loophole that was never intended but it can be done. However, the team that advances from the fall playoff and intends to take on Schattuck in the spring District playoff and potentially advances to nationals, yea the players on that team WILL NOT have the option of playing association hockey as they CANNOT be rostered on a Tier 2 team (ie association team) and the Tier 1 team that intends to go to nationals simultaneaously. Can't happen. They can play for their high school though so atleast they have an option and I am sure those players will "have a spot" on their high school teams.... Elliot your a smart guy with a lot of insight but we've had B&A down here in WI for a LONG time and this rule I know by heart and it's definitive as it currently stands (though we all know things change). The roster you are on when rosters are due for submission on December 31st is the team roster that are part of, no if's and's or but's about it with how it is worded currently.... Just like our 8th graders down here that tryout for and play for Team Wisconsin, they CANNOT go back and play winter Tier 2 association hockey, they cannot go to another Tier 1 AAA club, and for us they can't even play high school because here 8th graders cannot play high school hockey like you can in MN, hence why it is soooo very rare for an 8th grader to play TW even if they are good enough, they don't want to give up playing in the winter even for that usually.... this one I am 100% sure of my friend.

Considering USA Hockey unanimously approved the proposal, that's a lot of typing that you just did.

[elliott70]

How many game series vs. Shattuck? Before this Shattuck got an auto bid to Nationals? How does Bauer Emerson get to Nationals?

I don't follow Tier 1 stuff much.

My understanding is that they will not be going to nationals.
Under this proposal only Shattuck will be grandfathered in - all others will be governed directly by MH.

The series details have not been worked out.

[elliott70]

CLARIFICATION

this is how it is to work as of right now. Details are still being worked on but this is what has been proposed:

Everything will be under MH (no private tier 1 teams)
14U will be by district with certain districts combining (ex. 15 & 16 combined).
There will be 8 tier 1 teams (plus Shattuck). They will play in the late summer/fall with a play-off to determine the winner. The winner will come back in the spring to play Shattuck to send a team to Nationals.

16U & 18U will be by high school sections per the HP program. 8 teams at each level with a fall play-off and winner playing in the spring against Shattuck.

(Something similar on the girls side of it.)

It was brought up that fair and transparent evaluations need to be done in selecting teams. HP is not always perceived as having this.

A lot of details still to be worked out.

This question may have already been answered, but.

Will the teams be formed based on birth year, or MN Hockey age cut-offs?

USAH ages (calendar year) will be used.

[elliott70]

CLARIFICATION

this is how it is to work as of right now. Details are still being worked on but this is what has been proposed:

Everything will be under MH (no private tier 1 teams)
14U will be by district with certain districts combining (ex. 15 & 16 combined).
There will be 8 tier 1 teams (plus Shattuck). They will play in the late summer/fall with a play-off to determine the winner. The winner will come back in the spring to play Shattuck to send a team to Nationals.

16U & 18U will be by high school sections per the HP program. 8 teams at each level with a fall play-off and winner playing in the spring against Shattuck.

(Something similar on the girls side of it.)

It was brought up that fair and transparent evaluations need to be done in selecting teams. HP is not always perceived as having this.
A lot of details still to be worked out.

This question may have already been answered, but.

Will the teams be formed based on birth year, or MN Hockey age cut-offs?

I see those words and have a flash of cash flowing. Will be very interesting to see how this is done. Does fair mean that it is not fair that a different kid gets my kid's spot??? This is gonna be just as bad as the "elite" league is, probably just cost more money.

I brought up the idea of fair and transparent. Obviously, one parent's idea of this will be different than the next parent. But I was vehement in stressing this point. Mistakes will be made but the effort MUST be made to limit them and that they have no 'good old boy' character to them.

[The Exiled One]

Sponsorship money under Glen Andressen (MH ex dir) is way up and going up. To address the elite league question right now would be a little premature.

Maybe, but this new Tier 1 "season" will be HIGHLY observed. The only U18 spectacle with more eyeballs will be the State Tournament. In short, this is a massive sponsorship opportunity which I'm sure Glen Andressen is already formulating how to leverage. With online streaming and ticket sales, in the long term, this could actually funnel money back into MH, as opposed to being a drain on resources.

[stromboli]

Mn does not have deep enough elite talent to split it up between eight regions and still compete on a regular basis with elite Tier 1 teams that have no boundaries.

Compete with Mission, HB, SSM? Not likely. Maybe once in a blue moon, but not often enough to be more than smoke and mirrors. My opinion.

While it's a good move for MN Hockey, for practical purposes, it amounts to no more than an in-house league for MN hockey that supplants other off season leagues.

Crafty move. But touting an opportunity to play for a national championship will not carry the initial allure for too long. A few years at best maybe.

If MN Hockey was serious about showcasing MN talent against the rest of the nation, it wouldn't artificially handicap its players in this way.

Again, my opinion. Nothing more.

[Bonin2121]

A lot of the talent is concentrated in a few sections...

[elliott70]

Sponsorship money under Glen Andressen (MH ex dir) is way up and going up. To address the elite league question right now would be a little premature.

Maybe, but this new Tier 1 "season" will be HIGHLY observed. The only U18 spectacle with more eyeballs will be the State Tournament. In short, this is a massive sponsorship opportunity which I'm sure Glen Andressen is already formulating how to leverage. With online streaming and ticket sales, in the long term, this could actually funnel money back into MH, as opposed to being a drain on resources.

[elliott70]

Mn does not have deep enough elite talent to split it up between eight regions and still compete on a regular basis with elite Tier 1 teams that have no boundaries.

Compete with Mission, HB, SSM? Not likely. Maybe once in a blue moon, but not often enough to be more than smoke and mirrors. My opinion.

While it's a good move for MN Hockey, for practical purposes, it amounts to no more than an in-house league for MN hockey that supplants other off season leagues.

Crafty move. But touting an opportunity to play for a national championship will not carry the initial allure for too long. A few years at best maybe.

If MN Hockey was serious about showcasing MN talent against the rest of the nation, it wouldn't artificially handicap its players in this way.

Again, my opinion. Nothing more.

You may be right. The details are not all worked out yet and as I stated at the meeting this will be a dynamic (not static) system that we establish.

[elliott70]

A lot of the talent is concentrated in a few sections...

True.
Adjustments will (I hope) be made to allow for this. What they would be, I don't know. But again, this is step one.

[fastncrash]

A lot of the talent is concentrated in a few sections...

A lot of the population is concentrated in a few sections...

[Froggy Richards]

Mn does not have deep enough elite talent to split it up between eight regions and still compete on a regular basis with elite Tier 1 teams that have no boundaries.

Compete with Mission, HB, SSM? Not likely. Maybe once in a blue moon, but not often enough to be more than smoke and mirrors. My opinion.

While it's a good move for MN Hockey, for practical purposes, it amounts to no more than an in-house league for MN hockey that supplants other off season leagues.

Crafty move. But touting an opportunity to play for a national championship will not carry the initial allure for too long. A few years at best maybe.

If MN Hockey was serious about showcasing MN talent against the rest of the nation, it wouldn't artificially handicap its players in this way.

Again, my opinion. Nothing more.

You're absolutely right and that's exactly the point. The goal in all of this had nothing to do with playing for a National Championship. MN Hockey couldn't care less about the National Championship and 99.9% of Minnesotans don't care either. A State Championship in MN is worth a lot more. I wouldn't be shocked one bit if the team who comes out on top just says to heck with the Shattuck series and plays Baseball and goes to the lake instead.

It's about allowing a Tier 1 Hockey option that doesn't affect our Association and High School model so everybody shuts up about it and goes away. They've accomplished everything they set out to do and I think it's Fantastic. It shuts the door on Privately owned Tier 1 and Winter Tier 1, with the exception of Shattuck. It was a brilliant move and I applaud them for it.

[Bonin2121]

A lot of the population is concentrated in a few sections...

And a huge amount of $ is concentrated in a few sections. I wasn't saying it's a bad thing. I was countering the post about not being competitive nationwide.

[Bonin2121]

I wouldn't be shocked one bit if the team who comes out on top just says to heck with the Shattuck series and plays Baseball and goes to the lake instead.

I laughed

[nu2hockey]

CLARIFICATION

this is how it is to work as of right now. Details are still being worked on but this is what has been proposed:

Everything will be under MH (no private tier 1 teams)
14U will be by district with certain districts combining (ex. 15 & 16 combined).
There will be 8 tier 1 teams (plus Shattuck). They will play in the late summer/fall with a play-off to determine the winner. The winner will come back in the spring to play Shattuck to send a team to Nationals.

16U & 18U will be by high school sections per the HP program. 8 teams at each level with a fall play-off and winner playing in the spring against Shattuck.

(Something similar on the girls side of it.)

It was brought up that fair and transparent evaluations need to be done in selecting teams. HP is not always perceived as having this.

A lot of details still to be worked out.

Underline as of right now...the final product will not be as presented here....

[stromboli]

A lot of the population is concentrated in a few sections...

And a huge amount of $ is concentrated in a few sections. I wasn't saying it's a bad thing. I was countering the post about not being competitive nationwide.

I'm sorry, but no -- that's not much of a counter argument.

If MN's top summer teams can be used as any sort of a gauge, then even a "powerhouse" section in MN wouldn't be able to regularly compete on a national level with the top tier 1 teams than draw talent from entire metro, state, or multi-state regions.

At the highest levels of play, you have to be deeper in talent than any single region in MN can supply on a regular basis. Any other take is either out of touch with the tier 1 landscape, or overly optimistic about how strong some MN regions might be. Compare the Mpls metro to Chicago, Detroit, Boston, etc... Do you really think we're so deep in elite talent that we can compete with clubs from those areas if we split up talent by region when they don't?

MN can support three or four teams at most that can compete at a high level on a national stage. That's it -- regardless of where the kids come from.

Three teams would be okay. Two would be better. A true team MN would be ideal.

If the regional teams are used to identify a couple of national tournament teams, that could work.

[Bonin2121]

I'm sorry, but no -- that's not much of a counter argument.

HS teams have beaten or certainly hung with Shattuck relatively recently.

[JSR]

this one I am 100% sure of my friend.

I'm just going to save this one, for future reference.

make sure you don't post it out of context since I made sure that this was also included:

as it currently stands (though we all know things change).

I said that because lord knows MN Hockey throws its 800lbs gorilla weight around all the time and forces stuff on USA hockey that no one else ever could before...

[stromboli]

I'm sorry, but no -- that's not much of a counter argument.

HS teams have beaten or certainly hung with Shattuck relatively recently.

Point well taken. I'm skewed toward thinking about U16s and under, as in before most in-state and out-of-state talent leaves for juniors.

Which is another good point. I don't see this move keeping many kids from leaving MN high school hockey for the NAHL, USHL, or even north of the border.

[JSR]

A lot of the population is concentrated in a few sections...

And a huge amount of $ is concentrated in a few sections. I wasn't saying it's a bad thing. I was countering the post about not being competitive nationwide.

I'm sorry, but no -- that's not much of a counter argument.

If MN's top summer teams can be used as any sort of a gauge, then even a "powerhouse" section in MN wouldn't be able to regularly compete on a national level with the top tier 1 teams than draw talent from entire metro, state, or multi-state regions.

At the highest levels of play, you have to be deeper in talent than any single region in MN can supply on a regular basis. Any other take is either out of touch with the tier 1 landscape, or overly optimistic about how strong some MN regions might be. Compare the Mpls metro to Chicago, Detroit, Boston, etc... Do you really think we're so deep in elite talent that we can compete with clubs from those areas if we split up talent by region when they don't?

MN can support three or four teams at most that can compete at a high level on a national stage. That's it -- regardless of where the kids come from.

Three teams would be okay. Two would be better. A true team MN would be ideal.

If the regional teams are used to identify a couple of national tournament teams, that could work.

I know you are used to seeing arguments to the contrary from me in some ways but I think you underestimate how good the MN teams can be, even at eight of them, and overestimate how good the talent is nationwide in this instance. Honestly its not the talent that will be the downfall of these teams, it will be the lack of ability to play together all winter and develop chemistry that will keep them from advancing consistantly.

[The Exiled One]

I don't see this move keeping many kids from leaving MN high school hockey for the NAHL, USHL, or even north of the border.

Probably not, no. Considering 12 of the early departures already have college scholarships, playing for a Tier 1 Championship does nothing to increase their exposure. They were told they'd need to improve in juniors before moving on to D1 hockey, which is why they left. The kids who leave for the CHL are more concerned with moving on to the NHL than gaining college exposure. The kids who leave for the NAHL often depart from mediocre HS programs and this initiative does nothing to change that. Maybe a couple of the Tier 1 departures will stick around, but there were only 4 of them this season (unless you want to count Bauer-Emerson).

I think this initiative serves two main purposes: 1) Exposure in the fall AND the spring; 2) High-end development. Preventing departures is not a main purpose.

[InigoMontoya]

it amounts to no more than an in-house league

I'm not reading it that way. Nothing on the first post indicates that the 8 teams are limited to playing each other. I would suppose the eight Tier 1 teams could play whomever they like in the late summer/fall. MNH will have a pre-tourney in the fall to see which of those 8 is allowed to play SSM in the spring, for the right to represent the Minnesota Region at the national tourney.