East Grand Forks

[ted2you]

Lets go back in time. When they split the state into 2 levels, it was originally meant to be for the small schools to have a chance at a state tournament. The Teir system did not work. Small schools like Hallock and Baudette were supposed to be the ones that benifited from the 2 class system It has failed them. Small schools that have a strong program (EGF, TRF, Roseau, INT. Falls, Warroad) should not have had the option to be in the smaller class. It should have been manditory that ALL small schools had to participate where the line is drawn. Still, it would be very difficult for Hallock and Baudette to advance.

EGF is one of the best teams in the state this year in either class.

I'm not sure why these schools should have been "forced" to move up. This is the whole problem I would like solved. There are rare occasions when these small schools can compete with the EP's and Edina's of the State. Imagine the scene of Edina and EGF playing a game at the X in front of a full house with a David v Goliath theme. By the way it happened in 1982 at the old Civic Center, Edina won 4-3 in one of the best games I've ever seen.

EGF has an enrollment under 500 and these small schools need all the stars to align to have that kind of team, so when it happens there should be an opportunity. Why would the large schools object unless they are concerned they would lose? These small schools would still have to earn a trip to the X. The other years they are playing against schools with similar enrollment.

My issue with Private schools is perhaps my own bias. Do hockey players at HM, Breck, STA, or Benilde get scholarships or do they pay full enrollment? I do not know the answer to that. As long as they get financial assistance to attend, I have a problem with that.

[warriors41]

Can you open enroll across the border? I have no idea one way or the other.
If you can, then the point is quite valid. If not, the point is still the same, as people could move into MN before high school to play for EGF if that makes sense for them.[/quote]

I believe you can but if enroll into a MN public school from another state you have to pay a large fee since you don't contribute any tax money to the school. A classmate lived in Canada and her family had to pay over $6,000 I believe. I doubt Novak had to pay that since he went to private school which doesn't rely on public dollars.

[puckbreath]

I have seen EGF [and Blaine] play all of once this year. It was a good game, but EGF's defense kept Blaine out of it. The defense they played that game would've shut down most teams in the state.

That being said, it's one game, which is why it's so hard to compare. If you exclude Roseau and Moorhead from the discussion, the Green Wave have played all of ONE top AA team. They won the game, so they have beaten 100% of the top AA teams they've played, but it's not much to go off.

Ultimately, they play the schedule they do for a reason. Likely money, but also ability. Last year's team was good, but not this good. Going 1-2 against Roseau/Moorhead and 3-1-1 against Warroad/TRF, they are significantly better this year.
That being said, their goalie is a junior and only 1 of their top 6 scorers is a senior, so a good argument could be made for them to have opted up last year. But really, the issue is ultimately when that decision has to be made and that it is a 2 year commitment. If you look at STA, for example, for them to have been in AA last year, they would've had to make the decision before playoffs three years ago, before the first of their 3 titles.

That means EGF would've had to make the call last year before the playoffs. Do you really expect a program that hasn't been in state in Class A in 11 years to opt up to AA before they get to state? Sure, they probably know their kids and how good they are and such, but that's a pretty big decision.

So, the "issue" is when the decision has to be made and for how long. I think you'd see more teams opt up, or not opt up, more regularly if they could make the decision in August and for one year. But I doubt that'll happen.
Just my two cents.

Why are they better? Statistically, they stack up to teams like Wayzata...
EGF is strong enough defensively. They don't allow many quality shots...most are taken from point or along boards. They have a very nice mix of speed and physical play.

I already answered the question. With my opinion.

Obviously, you feel differently.

So it goes.

You responded to wondering why you think 'EGF isn't as good as others' with basically 'I think others are better.' That's not why, it's simply restating what.

I didn't realize my comments to someone else was your cross to bear.

Sorry, unlike you, I don't enjoy endless, meaningless internet arguments over opinions.

If that doesn't meet your criteria, I'll try to get over it.

[HShockeywatcher]

I believe you can but if enroll into a MN public school from another state you have to pay a large fee since you don't contribute any tax money to the school. A classmate lived in Canada and her family had to pay over $6,000 I believe. I doubt Novak had to pay that since he went to private school which doesn't rely on public dollars.

Seems odd to me since it doesn't go both ways. That could be a Canada/US thing though. Anyone know?

Lets go back in time. When they split the state into 2 levels, it was originally meant to be for the small schools to have a chance at a state tournament. The Teir system did not work. Small schools like Hallock and Baudette were supposed to be the ones that benifited from the 2 class system It has failed them. Small schools that have a strong program (EGF, TRF, Roseau, INT. Falls, Warroad) should not have had the option to be in the smaller class. It should have been manditory that ALL small schools had to participate where the line is drawn. Still, it would be very difficult for Hallock and Baudette to advance.

EGF is one of the best teams in the state this year in either class.

I'm always curious about when people bring up the "point of going to two classes." If they wanted to have just smaller schools, wouldn't they have a class for the bottom 64 teams? Then the couple good teams in that group would opt up and have a truly small school class.

My issue with Private schools is perhaps my own bias. Do hockey players at HM, Breck, STA, or Benilde get scholarships or do they pay full enrollment? I do not know the answer to that. As long as they get financial assistance to attend, I have a problem with that.

Financial aid at all private schools in the metro is given out on a need based basis. Some schools have more money to give than others.

I didn't realize my comments to someone else was your cross to bear.

Sorry, unlike you, I don't enjoy endless, meaningless internet arguments over opinions.

If that doesn't meet your criteria, I'll try to get over it.

I don't have some criteria, simply curious as to why you think they aren't good.
You have responded to someone else twice and now me without mentioning why you think other teams are better...seems like you do enjoy meaningless banter:-$

[puckbreath]

I believe you can but if enroll into a MN public school from another state you have to pay a large fee since you don't contribute any tax money to the school. A classmate lived in Canada and her family had to pay over $6,000 I believe. I doubt Novak had to pay that since he went to private school which doesn't rely on public dollars.

Seems odd to me since it doesn't go both ways. That could be a Canada/US thing though. Anyone know?

Lets go back in time. When they split the state into 2 levels, it was originally meant to be for the small schools to have a chance at a state tournament. The Teir system did not work. Small schools like Hallock and Baudette were supposed to be the ones that benifited from the 2 class system It has failed them. Small schools that have a strong program (EGF, TRF, Roseau, INT. Falls, Warroad) should not have had the option to be in the smaller class. It should have been manditory that ALL small schools had to participate where the line is drawn. Still, it would be very difficult for Hallock and Baudette to advance.

EGF is one of the best teams in the state this year in either class.

I'm always curious about when people bring up the "point of going to two classes." If they wanted to have just smaller schools, wouldn't they have a class for the bottom 64 teams? Then the couple good teams in that group would opt up and have a truly small school class.

My issue with Private schools is perhaps my own bias. Do hockey players at HM, Breck, STA, or Benilde get scholarships or do they pay full enrollment? I do not know the answer to that. As long as they get financial assistance to attend, I have a problem with that.

Financial aid at all private schools in the metro is given out on a need based basis. Some schools have more money to give than others.

I didn't realize my comments to someone else was your cross to bear.

Sorry, unlike you, I don't enjoy endless, meaningless internet arguments over opinions.

If that doesn't meet your criteria, I'll try to get over it.

I don't have some criteria, simply curious as to why you think they aren't good.
You have responded to someone else twice and now me without mentioning why you think other teams are better...seems like you do enjoy meaningless banter:-$

I *never* said they aren't good.

I also said why I think the top AA teams are better; I consider their players, at all positions, to be better.

Seems like you do enjoy putting words in people's mouths.

[Cadets16]

My issue with Private schools is perhaps my own bias. Do hockey players at HM, Breck, STA, or Benilde get scholarships or do they pay full enrollment? I do not know the answer to that. As long as they get financial assistance to attend, I have a problem with that.

As said earlier, all financial assistance is need-based, or awarded on academic performance in some scenarios.

I would assume that if hockey players at any of these schools had the money to attend camps all their life and play in elite programs as children, then they would have the funds to pay full tuition at these schools. That is, of course, a generalization and definitely not true for every skater.

[pekyman]

I believe you can but if enroll into a MN public school from another state you have to pay a large fee since you don't contribute any tax money to the school. A classmate lived in Canada and her family had to pay over $6,000 I believe. I doubt Novak had to pay that since he went to private school which doesn't rely on public dollars.

Seems odd to me since it doesn't go both ways. That could be a Canada/US thing though. Anyone know?

Lets go back in time. When they split the state into 2 levels, it was originally meant to be for the small schools to have a chance at a state tournament. The Teir system did not work. Small schools like Hallock and Baudette were supposed to be the ones that benifited from the 2 class system It has failed them. Small schools that have a strong program (EGF, TRF, Roseau, INT. Falls, Warroad) should not have had the option to be in the smaller class. It should have been manditory that ALL small schools had to participate where the line is drawn. Still, it would be very difficult for Hallock and Baudette to advance.

EGF is one of the best teams in the state this year in either class.

I'm always curious about when people bring up the "point of going to two classes." If they wanted to have just smaller schools, wouldn't they have a class for the bottom 64 teams? Then the couple good teams in that group would opt up and have a truly small school class.

My issue with Private schools is perhaps my own bias. Do hockey players at HM, Breck, STA, or Benilde get scholarships or do they pay full enrollment? I do not know the answer to that. As long as they get financial assistance to attend, I have a problem with that.

Financial aid at all private schools in the metro is given out on a need based basis. Some schools have more money to give than others.

I didn't realize my comments to someone else was your cross to bear.

Sorry, unlike you, I don't enjoy endless, meaningless internet arguments over opinions.

If that doesn't meet your criteria, I'll try to get over it.

I don't have some criteria, simply curious as to why you think they aren't good.
You have responded to someone else twice and now me without mentioning why you think other teams are better...seems like you do enjoy meaningless banter:-$

I *never* said they aren't good.

I also said why I think the top AA teams are better; I consider their players, at all positions, to be better.

Seems like you do enjoy putting words in people's mouths.

I agree with puckbreath. Less than a year ago EGF got dominated by sta 11-0 and now there are posters saying they may be the best in the state and could win AA. Their schedule is weak and they also have a problem with playing 2 good teams in a short period of time. Unless they get the 1 seed, this is something they are going to have to do. Obviously, they are a good team and have a chance at the class A title. Winning AA is another story.

[Cadets16]

Winning AA is another story.

STA in a nutshell.

[TTpuckster]

Seems odd to me since it doesn't go both ways. That could be a Canada/US thing though. Anyone know?
I'm always curious about when people bring up the "point of going to two classes." If they wanted to have just smaller schools, wouldn't they have a class for the bottom 64 teams? Then the couple good teams in that group would opt up and have a truly small school class.
Financial aid at all private schools in the metro is given out on a need based basis. Some schools have more money to give than others.
I don't have some criteria, simply curious as to why you think they aren't good.
You have responded to someone else twice and now me without mentioning why you think other teams are better...seems like you do enjoy meaningless banter:-$

I *never* said they aren't good.

I also said why I think the top AA teams are better; I consider their players, at all positions, to be better.

Seems like you do enjoy putting words in people's mouths.

I agree with puckbreath. Less than a year ago EGF got dominated by sta 11-0 and now there are posters saying they may be the best in the state and could win AA. Their schedule is weak and they also have a problem with playing 2 good teams in a short period of time. Unless they get the 1 seed, this is something they are going to have to do. Obviously, they are a good team and have a chance at the class A title. Winning AA is another story.

There will always be a good team in Class A every year that some people want to laud as the best team in state. It is a moot point because they are not in AA. It is fun to discuss, but mostly pointless.
However, the statement about EGF losing to STA 11 -0 last year has no bearing on this year. I have seen many times where a team has lost badly to another team one year but beats them the next year.

Case in point:

1996 Class A championship Warroad 10 - 3 Red Wing
1997 Class A championship Red Wing 4 - 3 Warroad

So, you can make all the statements you want about last year, but it means nothing.
Pretty much the same about EGF being the best in state.
Pointless.

[upnorthfan]

Hopefully EGF makes it to state and then wins the "A" state tournament. To speculate if EGF might be the best team in the state any class, will be a moot point if they don't win their own division. Let the play-offs play out and then one can speculate. EGF knew they had a special group a number of years back, opt up for 4 years and take you chances or else be happy where your at.

[ted2you]

With all due respect, my point of this post wasn't to feel sorry for EGF. It was not the point to say that EGF is to good for the A tournament. While I like their chances, I don't feel an EGF A title is inevitable, they have Warroad and TRF in that sectiion. I feel sorry for Hockey in general. It would be great for the state to make it easier for teams to "play up." I have not heard one EGF fan complain that they can't play in the AA Tournament. I'm not even sure they would move up if they had the choice. As a fan, I'd like to see them have a choice to make, it would be good for hockey. This year both EGF and Warroad could move up and neither could make it to state. Is it really good for hockey to have section 8AA represented by Roseau or Moorhead when there are two 8A teams better? This is the point that I think people miss. EGF played these teams during the season and nobody is suggesting they get a free pass to the X. When/if they got there they play against the best competition and get seeded where their merits put them. Isn't that what as fans we should want, is the best teams to play the best teams? Would that not balance out the A tournament as well.

For small schools to make a 4 year commitment is crazy. So a school looks in their crystal ball and projects the team they will have in two years and a parent loses a job and the family moves, two kids decide they can play in the USHL and improve their scholarship chances, two other kids see that the team isn't going to be that good and open enroll from Warroad to Roseau. There are greater tragedies than teams not playing in the X. But we could easily level the playing field.

I believe the MSH Tournament is the greatest show on ice. I don't see why in November, January or at the seeding meetings a small school can't roll the dice and play up if they like. if Warroad can beat Moorhead and win the section, then perhaps Moorhead shouldn't make it this year. I'm not suggesting you force a team to "play up." I remember Roseau winning the AA title (the last small school to do so). While I'm not a Roseau fan, that win sent a shiver up my spine and I respect them for playing AA. Do you realize how hard it is for a school with an enrollment of males smaller than the tryout pool for many suburban high schools. So when a small school has the alignment of the stars and can play with the top schools, why would people want to make it more difficult for that to happen?

[curtiscurve]

I think East Grand should have identified this group of Jr's and Sr's back in 2011-2012. After that season, they should have opted up, knowing full well they would be favorites to come out of 8AA. The opt up is for 2 years (I believe you have to commit for 2 seasons). Since
they did not, there is no reason to debate if they could win the AA title.

I would like to add that I have yet to see a team as strong defensively as this EGF team this year. As a matter of fact, it has been a long time since a team was this dominate defensively. If they do get through 8A play-offs, I just hope to see them match up with Hermantown (assuming the Hawks make it out of 7A) in the State Championship. The quality in that match-up would be equal to that of the AA championship in my mind. Class A should be looked at as some second rate tournament. It has become a great hockey tournament!

[TTpuckster]

I think East Grand should have identified this group of Jr's and Sr's back in 2011-2012. After that season, they should have opted up, knowing full well they would be favorites to come out of 8AA. The opt up is for 2 years (I believe you have to commit for 2 seasons). Since
they did not, there is no reason to debate if they could win the AA title.

I would like to add that I have yet to see a team as strong defensively as this EGF team this year. As a matter of fact, it has been a long time since a team was this dominate defensively. If they do get through 8A play-offs, I just hope to see them match up with Hermantown (assuming the Hawks make it out of 7A) in the State Championship. The quality in that match-up would be equal to that of the AA championship in my mind. Class A should be looked at as some second rate tournament. It has become a great hockey tournament!

I agree.

Hemantown's win over Breck and the championship game with STA were very fun games to watch last year.

[puckbreath]

I enjoy your posts ted2you.

Don't necessarily agree with everything in them, but they're good, well thought out thoughts.

p.s. of course, this and .50 will get ya a cup of coffee.

[goldy313]

double post

[ted2you]

Thanks for the kind words, Not agreeing with me all time is funny, this debate has raged between my brother and I since the switch to 2 class hockey. Neither of us like it, but we both understand it to some degree. To be honest I can't understand the MSHSL most the time. I clearly think it has hurt the Northern schools, but I'm not sure I'd ever believed we'd seriously be talking about Mankato West, and New Prague. These schools have good teams. I certainly never would have believed Luverne. I can't argue that A hockey has helped Delano's and other programs I will neglect to mention. It has broadened the base of Hockey and I honestly find A hockey more interesting than following Edina, Hill-Murray, EP, and WBL's of the state.

The MSHL has such an "offend nobody policy" and so many of their decisions make no sense to me. Use Wrestling for example. They have an A and AA system. While it seems crazy to think that teams from Apple Valley and Staples can compete on the same level, two classes make sense. But a number of years ago Staples and Apple Valley each had phenomenal heavyweights who went undefeated. They each won a heavyweight single title. What advantage is wrestling for a AA school v an A school when it is an individual event. i know the wrestler from Staples, he could have lived with 1 or 2, but he never got the chance to find out. (its ok, he got a college degree and hasn't needed therapy)

Edina was the AA champs last year but did they really prove they were the best? I have an announced bias against private schools playing in A, but STA should have been offered the opportunity (or all privates should be forced to by my opinion) to play up. It is the rigidity and arbitrariness of the MSHSL that bothers me. How sure are you that Hermantown and Breck wouldn't make the AA tournament and if they got there they would haved earned it. That is the charm the State Tournament has lost. It could be worse it could be basketball, where you play 5 guys and have six classes. I'm probably a fool, I want both a degree of fairness and opportunity.

[goldy313]

Last spring the MSHSL changed it from a 4 year commitment to a 2 year commitment, which makes sense since they redo the sections every 2 years. Every hockey team knew that prior to the new sections coming out. Rochester Century opted up thinking they'll have a state competitive AA team next year, this season they can't field a JV team for 3 periods.

edit: I do think had EGF opted up they'd be in a no win situation because some would think they opted up only to play in weaker section (8AA). If they did win 8AA they'd likely end up unseeded as they play few AA teams and with 8AA being down this year not likely to get as much respect as they would in most years for their schedule. if they stay in A people wonder why they didn't opt up. It's not a great position to be in for any A school.

Wrestling has 3 classes by the way... largely for team competition and a point of contention among many wrestling fans.

[ted2you]

Am I missing something? What possible reason is there for them to making a two year commitment to play AA? Is there any reason that on January 15th of the season they can't commit to A or AA.

I don't see how that changes anything, except for Moorhead, Roseau, and Brainard to breath a sigh of relief. But honestly if you are relieved an A team doesn't play up, you really don't belong in the AA tournament.

[ted2you]

good post, thanks for the correction on Wrestling. I also agree with you 100% on the moving up criticism. It is a bit of a no win situation, if they moved up they'd be opportunists and not moving up they will be hammered for not doing so.

[goldy313]

How sure are you that Hermantown and Breck wouldn't make the AA tournament and if they got there they would haved earned it.

The fact is that in nearly every case the A section tournament is far easier than the AA section tournament. To give STA a pass for playing 1 team in the top 30 or even 50 to get to state is far easier than what they will go through in 3AA this year. Using Lee's rankings STA was seeded #1 and given that no matter the class the 8 vs 1 seed is lopsided that changes in the next round. STA then played Chisago Lakes (#67) and Totino Grace (#29) to make to state. Had they been in 3AA they would have had 3 teams in their section rated higher that Totino in Eagan (#5) Eastview and Cretin. Breck was even worse playing Providence (#70) and Delano (#48) instead of 4 teams in the top 11. Yes they would have earned a trip to St Paul but their road was quite a bit harder.

[goldy313]

How sure are you that Hermantown and Breck wouldn't make the AA tournament and if they got there they would haved earned it.

The fact is that in nearly every case the A section tournament is far easier than the AA section tournament. To give STA a pass for playing 1 team in the top 30 or even 50 to get to state is far easier than what they will go through in 3AA this year. Using Lee's rankings STA was seeded #1 and given that no matter the class the 8 vs 1 seed is lopsided that changes in the next round. STA then played Chisago Lakes (#67) and Totino Grace (#29) to make to state. Had they been in 3AA they would have had 3 teams in their section rated higher that Totino in Eagan (#5) Eastview and Cretin. Breck was even worse playing Providence (#70) and Delano (#48) instead of 4 teams in the top 11. Yes they would have earned a trip to St Paul but their road was quite a bit easier in A.

[ted2you]

I'm not suggesting any short cuts. If EGF was seeded at 8AA they'd be rated on sectional foes. In section 8 that is easier because they played Roseau twice, Bemidji twice, Moorhead once. Because they won them all, they'd clearly get a #1 seed. Really how many teams would play up if they had not played AA competition. I'd say if you move up, you are the mercy of seeding like everyone else and strength of schedule is a factor that needs to be considered.

[Air Force 1]

East Grand Forks Senior High has 490 students in a community of 8,600. None of the hockey players are from Grand Forks as somewhat suggested earlier. Why would EGF want any GF players? EGF with 4-0-0 against Grand Forks schools this year and 6-0-0 last year. Why can't these boys just be congratulated on a great season, wished luck as they look forward to completing their season and begin section play. But no, it has to be debated if they should have opted up to AA a couple years ago. The team is playing in the class they qualify for and the school district is satisfied with. Should TRF have played up when the went to state two years in a row? Warroad? Now that STA is gone, there is no talk about privates moving up this year, so lets go after a public school that is playing and winning the schedule they were given? Nobody around here seems to be complaining.

Just enjoy the games and watching some good players playing the games. Stop trying to reinvent everything.

[Deathblow]

I'd be curious to see what the cost of travel would be if EGF had opted up. Playing a 8AA schedule would mean trips to Sartel, St. Cloud, etc...

I would think the school district is on the hook for any travel costs, and I thought that EGF has gone through some budget cuts within the district. But maybe I don't understand how it all works, either...

[goldy313]

Travel is a major consideration. Opting up doesn't automatically mean an upgrade in travel however. Roseau opts up but few of their games are just because they're AA and most are from regional teams.

The flip side is a team like Luverne.....nobody of consequence will go there because they can get comparable games closer to home or as home games. So then are you ducking teams or are you just held hostage by the economics of the game....it's the later of course but that won't stop those of a certain mindset to hold it against you. Budget woes are pretty much universal across high schools and AD's and coaches run into the dilemma of charging kids more to participate and being able to increase the budget or keeping costs down so there can be more participation.