Girls JV vs U14A - Which is Better?

[SECoach]

From my experiences, the hierarchy of the levels skill-wise is this:
Varsity
U14 Upper A
JV
U14 Lower A / B

Would anyone deny that? Thus if your goal is to play at the highest skill-level possible, and you are not Varsity-caliber, play U14.

Sure, I think there are many very good players in U14A but the chart is to simplistic to be true. For example isnt the Edina JV team this year mostly from the Edina U14A team(s) last year? Would the Edina JV team be able to compete with the Edina U14A team. Your chart above says they could not but I think they would be quite a bit better.

I think you'd be quick to reassess your thoughts about which Edina team is better if you watched each of them play. Their U14A team would rip up the JV team. I've seen both play.

I will admit there are a few U14 A teams this year that are not legitimate A teams. They should be playing U14B. But the legitimate U14A teams are better than almost all JV teams save for a couple extraordinary programs (Benilde).

Sounds like your hierarchy list works perfectly for you and your situation. I can promise you that it's not the same in our neighborhood. Not sure you should speak in such absolutes as Royal Dad pointed out (even though I'm probably famous for that).

[D6 Girls Fan]

Couple points:

The BSM JV isn't off the chart awesome. They're real young and small

The Edina JV would, in fact, beat the 14U team. Most of the Edina JV played on that same 14U team and now they're bigger and faster.

I'm sure the Edina U14 team really enjoys winning all those games 10-0. But it does make some people think they could beat a good JV team.

[U14ABystander]

[quote="D6 Girls Fan"]Couple points:

The BSM JV isn't off the chart awesome. They're real young and small

The Edina JV would, in fact, beat the 14U team. Most of the Edina JV played on that same 14U team and now they're bigger and faster.

I'm sure the Edina U14 team really enjoys winning all those games 10-0. But it does make some people think they could beat a good JV team.[/quote]

1) This years Edina U14 team is quite a bit better than last years Edina U14 team. And the best players from last years U14 team are playing varsity. Name me 3 JV teams that would beat the top U14 teams in the state.

2) I must be living in some parallel universe. I've been watching JV hockey and U14 hockey for the last couple years. Not one time have I ever seen a JV team that made me think they could compete with a legit U14 upper A team. Like I said earlier, there are definitely a number of U14A teams that should NOT be playing A level hockey. They should be U14B teams. For those teams, I agree with you, JV teams would kick their tails.

[Nevertoomuchhockey]

Agree.
We've all seen 14uA teams that could beat their school's varsity! Completely program specific.

[RailingWizardofOZ]

OK, I’ll bite. This thread was started with a great question, but one that cannot be answered in absolutes. This, in my opinion and experience, isn’t even apples and oranges; its apples and apples

There is no coincidence that the programs with strong U14A teams also have strong JV and Varsity teams. The programs with the so called “weak” JV teams are usually programs without a team at the U14 level. So to say that the high level U14A teams (probably 2 or 3 in the State?) would beat “most” JV teams is all relative and not a big surprise to the realities of each programs demographics and circumstances. Edina’s JV team could also probably beat the “lower end” U14A teams in some areas as well, especially the ones that have been referenced as being true “B” teams. If the U14A team in Edina is that skilled this year to beat the past U14 players that are at the JV level now, then that is a great situation for the depth and longevity of the High School program, and one that MANY other HS programs would love to have.

There have always been peaks and valleys in every programs age groups, more so in smaller and less affluent towns. Some programs are lucky to keep numbers of 10+ at each birth year all the way through U14, where others dwindle down to less than 5 year after year. From my experience over the years this shines the bigger light on the overall development throughout the youth program. Too often, players come to the HS level and don’t understand the basic concepts of the game. HS coaches not only need to work with players deficiencies in skating, passing and shooting fundamentals, but basic positional issues as basic as defensive zone positioning as well. Proof in point, the comment about how the current U14A team at Edina could convincingly beat the Edina JV as the top players on last year’s team are playing Varsity. If U14 hockey is better for development then why the disparity of their U14/JV team this year? Just an example of the peaks and valleys from birth year to birth year, not the actual level itself.

Again, in the end it all boils down to the outside factors of location that are relative to depth and talent in programs. The high end U14A teams will have great battles against the other high end U14A teams, just as those same programs will have great battles between their Varsity and JV teams. The programs without U14 teams will obviously have JV teams that will struggle against the ones that do have them. The programs that have low end U14A teams or even U14B teams AND have struggling or less talented JV teams need to look back at their development model within their youth program and admit that they may need to change their approach.

As far as 3 JV programs that cold beat the top 3 U14A teams, I would have to vote that the top 3 HS programs in the State could probably give them a good game and win the majority of the time. Hill-Murray’s JV team could beat a large percentage of Varsity programs. Again, apples and apples.

[Don't Poke The Bear]

U14ABystander

This years Edina U14 team is quite a bit better than last years Edina U14 team. And the best players from last years U14 team are playing varsity.

Just to clarify, the only player from last year's Edina U14A Green team playing varsity is the goalie Anna Goldstein. The two 8th graders who made Edina's varsity came from Edina 12A Green. Also two 7th graders from last year’s 12A Green made varsity at Blake.

From last year’s 14A Green 5 players (no longer 14 eligible) are on JV, 1 is playing AAA hockey out of state, 1 is playing for Duluth Northern Stars, and 2 aren’t playing hockey this year. That leaves 6 girls from last year on this year’s Green 14A team along with two from last year's 14A White, 5 from 12A Green, 1 from 12A White, and 1 from elsewhere.

[greenhockeymom]

Bystander - you're comments regarding Edina are silly.

[Cut Above]

From my experiences, the hierarchy of the levels skill-wise is this:
Varsity
U14 Upper A
JV
U14 Lower A / B

Would anyone deny that? Thus if your goal is to play at the highest skill-level possible, and you are not Varsity-caliber, play U14.

Sure, I think there are many very good players in U14A but the chart is to simplistic to be true. For example isnt the Edina JV team this year mostly from the Edina U14A team(s) last year? Would the Edina JV team be able to compete with the Edina U14A team. Your chart above says they could not but I think they would be quite a bit better.

I think you'd be quick to reassess your thoughts about which Edina team is better if you watched each of them play. Their U14A team would rip up the JV team. I've seen both play.

I will admit there are a few U14 A teams this year that are not legitimate A teams. They should be playing U14B. But the legitimate U14A teams are better than almost all JV teams save for a couple extraordinary programs (Benilde).

Agree with your hierarchy - today. I think going forward it's possible with a decrease in girls numbers, that JV could overtake 14A as the 2nd best option as the HS's will be forced to take more of younger players (from 14s) to fill their rosters?

[BluehawkHockey]

Agree with your hierarchy - today. I think going forward it's possible with a decrease in girls numbers, that JV could overtake 14A as the 2nd best option as the HS's will be forced to take more of younger players (from 14s) to fill their rosters?

Some of those top 14s could go to Bantams as well. Better competition, faster game, more games. Yes, I know they check at Bantams but with all the Bantam games I've watched so far this year, there are a lot of teams that don't check at all and/or don't do it well. Many of these girls are as big or bigger than those boys. I know there is at least 1 girl Bantam A goalie. Wouldn't be surprised if there are a few skaters as well.

I think removing checking from Peewee's isn't helping the Bantam game and may actually be hurting it but that is a discussion for another time.

No matter what, the U14 level is probably heading toward extinction. MN Hockey better figure out how to get the girls game growing or it will start to disappear.

[hockeychopper]

What about it flipping the other way, eliminating JV and having U14 as that feeder program for the HS Varsity? I know the likelihood of this ever happening are slim to none but why not? Increase U14 to U15 or even U16 and go that route. I know there are some very strong JV programs out there but that's not the norm, same goes with U14A, some very strong U14A teams but a pretty steep drop after those handful of elite teams.

Just looking at the other side of the coin on this topic.

[hockeyfan21]

perhaps eliminating U14 and replacing it with U16 may be something to consider. A lot of programs in our area have an in between issue... Not enough for both U14 and JV, but thats only because of the age issue...

[InigoMontoya]

Before we all burn down our JV programs, we should take a look at how the coaching staff moves players up and down, allowing 4th (and 3rd) liners an opportunity to log some game minutes, providing a place for 3rd and 4th goalies to play and develop, throwing a bone to hard working underclassmen against weaker conference competition, etc. 14U in addition to Var/JV provides great options; 14U instead of JV really limits what the high school program can accomplish.

[MNHockeyFan]

Before we all burn down our JV programs, we should take a look at how the coaching staff moves players up and down, allowing 4th (and 3rd) liners an opportunity to log some game minutes, providing a place for 3rd and 4th goalies to play and develop, throwing a bone to hard working underclassmen against weaker conference competition, etc. 14U in addition to Var/JV provides great options; 14U instead of JV really limits what the high school program can accomplish.

I agree with this. Instead of issuing any edicts about shutting down any teams, let each association and high school program figure out what's best for them. The kids and parents will have more options from which to choose, which is always a good thing.

[BluehawkHockey]

And, what can/should Minnesota Hockey do to get girls hockey growing again?

[hockeychopper]

I really think MN Hockey needs to work with all of the associations on recruiting new players and retaining the players we already have. It has to start with that U8/U10 level. From a Girls Hockey perspective we need to make sure we are building at the younger levels. I think there tends to be more attention paid to the U10/U12(mainly) level that we lose focus on the younger kids where everything starts. I think MN Hockey has a lot or really good resources and ideas on their website, use social media effectively to get the message out BUT ultimately it comes back to the associations to utilize the tools and spend the time actually emphasizing recruiting and retaining players to make any progress.

[Nevertoomuchhockey]

I really think MN Hockey needs to work with all of the associations on recruiting new players and retaining the players we already have. It has to start with that U8/U10 level. From a Girls Hockey perspective we need to make sure we are building at the younger levels. I think there tends to be more attention paid to the U10/U12(mainly) level that we lose focus on the younger kids where everything starts. I think MN Hockey has a lot or really good resources and ideas on their website, use social media effectively to get the message out BUT ultimately it comes back to the associations to utilize the tools and spend the time actually emphasizing recruiting and retaining players to make any progress.

Definitely some good points. One place I disagree - I think 10u/12u is almost too late to start. I've seen too many families bring a girl in at those levels and the poor kid is intimidated and outskated by her peers who've been on the ice for years. Parents think they can never catch up, which I think in most cases isnt true. Those free learn to skate clinics and try hockey free programs which focus younger are invaluable. I wanted to offer mites free for first year girls at our last association if the family had another kid playing with us. Few others saw the value.

[Tigers33]

I will disagree with most people on here. How many AA teams are there? Roughly 60 I believe. I will take my chances that 30-40, if not more, of those teams will beat your average u14 team.

U14 hockey is not good! Why? Obviously because all the good 8th and 9th graders go on to play high school. Some high schools don't even have a u14 team cause of their number issues.

Exclude wayzata and Edina from the conversation. I bet eagans jv team beats most u14 teams, minus the two I mentioned.

[hockeywild7]

Every HS program has different circumstances to deal with so you can't apply a one size fits all mentality on the U14/JV issue. Many JV's, especially the programs with larger numbers, are made up of a high percentage of players who no longer have U14 eligibility so this is there only option unless they play U19 or for the Thoroughbreds. If you look at the JV rosters you will see many of these programs JV's consist of a lot of sophomores and some juniors who don't have the U14 option.

[State Champ 97]

I will disagree with most people on here. How many AA teams are there? Roughly 60 I believe. I will take my chances that 30-40, if not more, of those teams will beat your average u14 team.

U14 hockey is not good! Why? Obviously because all the good 8th and 9th graders go on to play high school. Some high schools don't even have a u14 team cause of their number issues.

Exclude wayzata and Edina from the conversation. I bet eagans jv team beats most u14 teams, minus the two I mentioned.

And JV is usually worse. I have coached both levels and 14UA is usually better. There are exceptions to every circumstance but on average 14UA is a better level of hockey than girls JV.

[Tigers33]

I have also coached both. I will stand by my experience that our jv team would've beaten most u14 teams.

U14 is the worst level of girls hockey. Hands down.

[sinbin]

For a given program, it also depends on the relative talent over time. 4 or 5 years ago, our U14A team would have destroyed our JV team. Then, a year later when those U14's moved to varsity (and the JV players stayed put and U14 was knocked down a notch or two), U14 would still defeat JV. Another year later, JV was better, and another year later JV was much better. This year, they're fairly equal. So, for a given program, the pendulum can swing back and forth over time as well.

[hockeychopper]

Tigers33 I have not coaches at the JV level but I tend to agree with others that JV in most cases (not all) is lower than that of U14A teams (some not all). One comment you made was about all good 8th and 9th graders play HS, there lies the problem. More so with the 8th graders. Why not have them play a year of u14A rather than JV? If MN Hockey and the MSHSL would partner and look at making it difficult for an 8th grader to play HS hockey, the level of play at the U14A level would sky rocket and long term the level of play at the HS Varsity would improve as well. Further development at the U14 level both skill and social. However, good solid coaching is critical in making that happen.

[Tigers33]

How many u14a teams are there? Roughly 45

How many AA high school teams are there? Roughly 60

I will take any bet says that around 30 jv teams would beat their respective u14a team.

Why do you think these kids leave? Cause u14 hockey isn't good. Remember it's also a number factor. Lets not base things off of the Edina and wayzatas of the world.

[hockeychopper]

How often is it the kids that decide to play HS vs the parent, especially as an 8th grader? Let's be honest, HS hockey is much cheaper than association hockey and practice is usually done by 5pm. I believe convenience is a big part of the equation. Let's look at a U14A team where the system is working. The U14A Blaine team has a handful of players on that team that would make just about every varsity team in the state. From what I understand, those 8th graders cannot play HS hockey until they are 9th graders. They are having a solid year and have an opportunity to make a great run at a state tourney title. Come next year, after a full summer of training in the HS Summer program, that will be that much better from a development perspective and be able to contribute right away at the HS level, plus they made some great memories with the friends they've grown up playing with all through youth hockey.

[observer]

I have also coached both. I will stand by my experience that our jv team would've beaten most u14 teams.

U14 is the worst level of girls hockey. Hands down.

What? 14A teams are A level players. JV teams, without 8th or 9th graders that have made the jump skipping U14, often have zero girls with A level experience. In most instances it's stupid to move U14 eligible players to JV. Play U14. The boys often say only move to varsity instead of bantam if the player is top two lines and specialty teams otherwise play bantam. As the girls game continues to grow hopefully they'll live by the same guidelines

Every situation is different but the only solution to declining numbers is recruiting 4 and 5 year old girls. Your youth association is either growing or shrinking. Make sure the recruiting committee at your association is getting the necessary attention or you're shrinking.