Section Realignment

[easton18]

Is anyone seriously suggesting that adding Hastings and Prior Lake to 1AA will make that section's entrant significantly better? One of those hasn't been to the tournament since it was at the Target Center and I don't even know if the other has been to section final.

Check out the youth rankings. Prior Lake's program is improving rapidly, the Lakeville's are better at the youth level than the current HS group at both schools, and Farmington could be a top 20 team in a couple years. Hastings is just average, but you never know when they could get a group like they had in the late 90s-early 2000s. It could be a much better section and still make sense geographically, that's all.

I personally like your back door section idea, just trying to stick to realistic ideas that the MSHSL might actually consider.

I think you're on the right track in taking the youth rankings into account, but you have to keep in mind that a lot of things change from youth to high school. Think about the kids who will leave for private schools, or will attend a high school that is not the one within their youth system. Specifically, I can think off the top of my head of at least three kids who for some portion of their career played in the Prior Lake youth system, but played high school hockey for Burnsville. Lakeville also has its share of kids who leave for private schools, as do most cities that don't necessarily have the deep/rich hockey tradition as other cities. There are a lot of factors that can influence someone to leave for a different school, or juniors or Ann Arbor, or wherever.

[Bonehead]

Put Edina, Hill Murray & STA in 6AA.

[PuckU126]

Put Edina, Hill Murray & STA in 6AA.

They could call that the Metro Championship Tourney.

[East Side Pioneer Guy]

Put Edina, Hill Murray & STA in 6AA.

You do know we love it when you talk that way, don't you?

[HappyHockeyFan]

slacsap re: realistic possibilities:

A boy can dream, can't I? Heh heh.

I think Prior Lake has another high school in it's district. Is that the case? Because what Section 1AA really needs is a one high school district with a good hockey program. Rochester and Lakeville have too many schools (for a good hockey program).

Yeah, I understand Prior Lake is an up-and-comer. But I'll believe it when I see it. Same deal with Farmington. I heard the same thing about Inver Grove Heights (Simley) in the 80's. I think they made it to the section final once.

Hastings was a flash in the pan, they had one good group of athletes, many of them with the same last name. Though it was a very talented bunch.

Actually Simley made it to the State Tournament twice, first time they took consolation and the second time they lost to Warroad in the Championship game. They would have had more success but they always lost some of their best players to SSP year after year.

[East Side Pioneer Guy]

slacsap re: realistic possibilities:

A boy can dream, can't I? Heh heh.

I think Prior Lake has another high school in it's district. Is that the case? Because what Section 1AA really needs is a one high school district with a good hockey program. Rochester and Lakeville have too many schools (for a good hockey program).

Yeah, I understand Prior Lake is an up-and-comer. But I'll believe it when I see it. Same deal with Farmington. I heard the same thing about Inver Grove Heights (Simley) in the 80's. I think they made it to the section final once.

Hastings was a flash in the pan, they had one good group of athletes, many of them with the same last name. Though it was a very talented bunch.

Actually Simley made it to the State Tournament twice, first time they took consolation and the second time they lost to Warroad in the Championship game. They would have had more success but they always lost some of their best players to SSP year after year.

Didn't anyone ever tell you? Back in the 80's we just had one tournament, the JV tourney was added later. Of course, not everyone got a ribbon then.

[BP]

In Class A, obviously 3A needs looking at.
The representative the past few years, New Ulm, has gottten waxed repeatedly at State. This year, the representative will be either Marshall or the 7-win Hutchinson team, either of which will get slaughtered once in St Paul.
There is no team in 3A who look to be competitive (in state-wide terms), why not place a couple of better teams there?
Not sure who, just thinking aloud.

This is the section that needs the most help, A or AA, and it isn't close. Back in late 90's, teams like Breck, Orono, Mound, or Delano were in this section. They should strongly consider doing this again. 2A and 4A are loaded and has some good teams year after year that would be very competitive at the state tournament. When the quarterfinals at State are 13-2, 8-0, etc something needs to be done. And there are no signs that any of the 3A teams will be able to compete at the X for years to come. People always say 1AA needs some teams added to that section (Bville, AV, PL, etc), but at least the Lakeville teams have been competitive and won some games (but they should add those teams). 3A is not that way, at all. The 1 seed was 21-3-1 this year, but didn't beat one good team all year and could barely beat the 9th and 10th seeds in Section 2A and 4A by 1 or 2 goals during the regular season. Time for a change, and those teams didn't even get to the section final. They (Marshall and Hutch) are going to get blown out bad at the X unfortunately.

[The51]

I thought St Thomas was being out in 1Aa

[fivehole628]

slacsap re: realistic possibilities:

A boy can dream, can't I? Heh heh.

I think Prior Lake has another high school in it's district. Is that the case? Because what Section 1AA really needs is a one high school district with a good hockey program. Rochester and Lakeville have too many schools (for a good hockey program).

Yeah, I understand Prior Lake is an up-and-comer. But I'll believe it when I see it. Same deal with Farmington. I heard the same thing about Inver Grove Heights (Simley) in the 80's. I think they made it to the section final once.

Hastings was a flash in the pan, they had one good group of athletes, many of them with the same last name. Though it was a very talented bunch.

Actually Simley made it to the State Tournament twice, first time they took consolation and the second time they lost to Warroad in the Championship game. They would have had more success but they always lost some of their best players to SSP year after year.

Didn't anyone ever tell you? Back in the 80's we just had one tournament, the JV tourney was added later. Of course, not everyone got a ribbon then.

Looks like we have another troll on site today

[Bonehead]

Put Edina, Hill Murray & STA in 6AA.

You do know we love it when you talk that way, don't you?

A backhanded compliment. Seriously, shouldn't you guys stop eating your section competition?

[joey]

Earlier in this thread I had asked if anyone knew how the MSHSL section assignment process worked and what rationale they used in their section selections. I'd like to thank those who contributed insights, and to thank everyone for not using this thread as another excuse to try to insult and belittle the players and families who happen to have been assigned by the MSHSL to play in section 1AA.

On another thread line, this idea was brought up:
Maybe the MSHSL is purposely NOT looking to add powerful programs like Burnsville or Eagan or even STA to 1AA, so that the southeastern Minnesota programs will stay more invested in their hockey programs. If B'ville and/or Eagan or some other established perennial power were assigned to 1AA, the thought was put forth that the SE minn programs would lose hockey interest, knowing that they would never have any chance to make it to the show. I did not respond on that thread's line, because the majority of that thread's conversations were mostly concerned with making sure that the players and families in 1AA knew how despised they were by all the rest of the state. I'm not looking for negativity, I'm looking for an understanding of the process and rationale that the MSHSL uses when assigning teams to a section. So I'll ask you guys here:

Does this sound like a plausible reason to keep PL/B'ville/Eagan/STA out of 1AA?

Those of you in section 1AA: Do you think that the interest in your programs would decline if a powerehouse were moved into your section?
My own thought is that the younger kids would play hockey if they wanted to, not caring in the least about such things as "sections". But would the high school programs attract/retain high-quality coaching staffs at the outstate high schools if they knew they had no prayer of getting past their section semi-final games intact?

Also, I'd sure like to hear from someone who has close knowledge of the MSHSL rationale and selection process.

Thanks for your responses.

[HappyHockeyFan]

Earlier in this thread I had asked if anyone knew how the MSHSL section assignment process worked and what rationale they used in their section selections. I'd like to thank those who contributed insights, and to thank everyone for not using this thread as another excuse to try to insult and belittle the players and families who happen to have been assigned by the MSHSL to play in section 1AA.

On another thread line, this idea was brought up:
Maybe the MSHSL is purposely NOT looking to add powerful programs like Burnsville or Eagan or even STA to 1AA, so that the southeastern Minnesota programs will stay more invested in their hockey programs. If B'ville and/or Eagan or some other established perennial power were assigned to 1AA, the thought was put forth that the SE minn programs would lose hockey interest, knowing that they would never have any chance to make it to the show. I did not respond on that thread's line, because the majority of that thread's conversations were mostly concerned with making sure that the players and families in 1AA knew how despised they were by all the rest of the state. I'm not looking for negativity, I'm looking for an understanding of the process and rationale that the MSHSL uses when assigning teams to a section. So I'll ask you guys here:

Does this sound like a plausible reason to keep PL/B'ville/Eagan/STA out of 1AA?

Those of you in section 1AA: Do you think that the interest in your programs would decline if a powerehouse were moved into your section?
My own thought is that the younger kids would play hockey if they wanted to, not caring in the least about such things as "sections". But would the high school programs attract/retain high-quality coaching staffs at the outstate high schools if they knew they had no prayer of getting past their section semi-final games intact?

Also, I'd sure like to hear from someone who has close knowledge of the MSHSL rationale and selection process.

Thanks for your responses.

What many people on here dont seem to realize is that the MSHSL has a responsibility to make sure that all areas of our state are represented at the State Tournament. If that doesnt happen then it becomes the Twin Cities Tournament. Sure the MSHSL wants to put on a great tournament but not at the cost of turning this into a metro tourney and I for one am very glad they dont. Thats what makes this tournament so special, the outstate teams coming in with all of their wonderful history. There are plenty of great section games to see that are every bit as good as the tournament, Wayzata/BSM for example. Those who continuously cry about sections 1AA and 8AA dont truly understand what this tournament is all about, they dont understand the nostalgia and history involved. I for one hope that 1AA and 8AA are left alone. Sure I get tired of seeing LVS and LVN every year but one of these years a Rochester team will put together a solid team and make it back to State and it will be great to see them there.

[defense]

It could possibly be that the mshsl uses geography and balances the sections on numbers rather than competition...since that is what they've always said. Has this held true in the metro ?

[East Side Pioneer Guy]

Put Edina, Hill Murray & STA in 6AA.

You do know we love it when you talk that way, don't you?

A backhanded compliment. Seriously, shouldn't you guys stop eating your section competition?

Jeez, can't a guy get something to eat once in a while?

[almostashappy]

It could possibly be that the mshsl uses geography and balances the sections on numbers rather than competition...since that is what they've always said. Has this held true in the metro ?

There is more room for creativity once they work in from the edges and get to the Metro area. You can slice it up like a five-piece pie, or a box+1, or your standard 2-3 zone... just have to create contiguous borders and not have the result look like a Texas congressional district.

And even if they really do start at the borders and work inwards, there's options. Hastings is on the eastern edge of the state, but also one of the more southern AA schools. It could go either way.

[Jim9000]

It may already be in this thread... and I may be to lazy to look for it....but,

Does anyone know the date that the MSHSL will complete the realignments?

[gitter]

What many people on here dont seem to realize is that the MSHSL has a responsibility to make sure that all areas of our state are represented at the State Tournament. If that doesnt happen then it becomes the Twin Cities Tournament. Sure the MSHSL wants to put on a great tournament but not at the cost of turning this into a metro tourney and I for one am very glad they dont. Thats what makes this tournament so special, the outstate teams coming in with all of their wonderful history. There are plenty of great section games to see that are every bit as good as the tournament, Wayzata/BSM for example. Those who continuously cry about sections 1AA and 8AA dont truly understand what this tournament is all about, they dont understand the nostalgia and history involved. I for one hope that 1AA and 8AA are left alone. Sure I get tired of seeing LVS and LVN every year but one of these years a Rochester team will put together a solid team and make it back to State and it will be great to see them there.

I don't want it to be a metro tourney either, but the reality is when you take the top 64 school by enrollment for AA, that's what the default almost is. Over 70% of the schools in AA are from the metro area. A lot of the remaining teams are co-ops who have never had a history of hockey success:

Buffalo
Monticello (I left them off the metro list even though they are somewhat close)
Northern Lakes
Becker
River Lakes
St. Francis
Cambridge
Owatonna
Dodge County
Winona

So now you take these AA teams off (nothing in their youth programs suggest a change - and realignment happens ever 5-6 years, not permanent) and realistically what do you have left for AA? Almost 85% of AA teams will come from the metro - regardless of how you slice the pie.

The only solution for this in AA is for schools like Hermantown, Rochester Lourdes to opt up in order to keep the out of metro presence somewhat strong. Whats the difference if Lakevilles go every year or if Prior Lake or Burnsville go instead - they are all metro teams. Like it or not, the game evolves. Eveleth might have one of the most storied programs in history, and they won't be back at the tournament ever (even at the A level). So much of hockey revolves round socioeconomic factors, and that landscape is ever-changing.

[goldy313]

A quick newspaper search shows articles about section realignment coming out in mid March in 2009, 2011, and 2012 so my guess is the MSHSL approves them during their March meeting.

[hockeydad]

I have heard from an AD that they will be out on or around March 7.

[inthetwine]

I have heard from an AD that they will be out on or around March 7.

Usually they are out by tourny time.

[HShockeywatcher]

Previous posters are correct that geography is the determining factor in structure of sections in all sports (with the exception of the new Class in football). The MSHSL does not consider competitive balance at all in determining the make up of sections. Whether this is a good idea or not can be debated, but it is extremely unlikely the MSHSL will change its policies anytime in the near future. I would guess, based solely on geography, that STA would be placed in Section 3AA next year and a couple of schools may be moved to balance the number of schools per section, but the MSHSL rarely makes wholesale changes in sections (I think there were only 1 or 2 changes statewide two years ago)

I've posted this in other thread and it seems to go no where, but I'll post it again:
While geography is clearly used, in both classes you can clearly see that it's not the only thing. If geography were the only thing, there are many teams that would be in different sections. I understand keeping sections 7 and 8 separate despite the numbers, but, beyond that, some of the decisions seem arbitrary. From Apollo and Cathedral not being in the same section to Hermantown and Denfeld not in the same section, there are clearly some weird decisions being made.

I have no dog in this fight, as the expression goes, I'm just looking for more explanation as others are.

[D3Referee]

I hear ya chief. As a realtor, my interest in section realignment is purely financial

[hockeydad]

Previous posters are correct that geography is the determining factor in structure of sections in all sports (with the exception of the new Class in football). The MSHSL does not consider competitive balance at all in determining the make up of sections. Whether this is a good idea or not can be debated, but it is extremely unlikely the MSHSL will change its policies anytime in the near future. I would guess, based solely on geography, that STA would be placed in Section 3AA next year and a couple of schools may be moved to balance the number of schools per section, but the MSHSL rarely makes wholesale changes in sections (I think there were only 1 or 2 changes statewide two years ago)

I've posted this in other thread and it seems to go no where, but I'll post it again:
While geography is clearly used, in both classes you can clearly see that it's not the only thing. If geography were the only thing, there are many teams that would be in different sections. I understand keeping sections 7 and 8 separate despite the numbers, but, beyond that, some of the decisions seem arbitrary. From Apollo and Cathedral not being in the same section to Hermantown and Denfeld not in the same section, there are clearly some weird decisions being made.

I have no dog in this fight, as the expression goes, I'm just looking for more explanation as others are.

The lines have to be drawn somewhere.... Class A sections have about 10 to 12 teams per section when they are drawn up. If you look at 7A, you will see the section has nine teams and section 5 has 11. But remember that when the lines were drawn, Section 7 had 10 teams, (Two Harbors and Silver Bay). The Duluth schools just happened to be the most southern out of the 10 schools, so that was where they drew the line.

You might remember back when Duluth had three Class A schools (before Central closed) one of the Duluth schools was in 5 and the other two in seven

[HShockeywatcher]

Previous posters are correct that geography is the determining factor in structure of sections in all sports (with the exception of the new Class in football). The MSHSL does not consider competitive balance at all in determining the make up of sections. Whether this is a good idea or not can be debated, but it is extremely unlikely the MSHSL will change its policies anytime in the near future. I would guess, based solely on geography, that STA would be placed in Section 3AA next year and a couple of schools may be moved to balance the number of schools per section, but the MSHSL rarely makes wholesale changes in sections (I think there were only 1 or 2 changes statewide two years ago)

I've posted this in other thread and it seems to go no where, but I'll post it again:
While geography is clearly used, in both classes you can clearly see that it's not the only thing. If geography were the only thing, there are many teams that would be in different sections. I understand keeping sections 7 and 8 separate despite the numbers, but, beyond that, some of the decisions seem arbitrary. From Apollo and Cathedral not being in the same section to Hermantown and Denfeld not in the same section, there are clearly some weird decisions being made.

I have no dog in this fight, as the expression goes, I'm just looking for more explanation as others are.

The lines have to be drawn somewhere.... Class A sections have about 10 to 12 teams per section when they are drawn up. If you look at 7A, you will see the section has nine teams and section 5 has 11. But remember that when the lines were drawn, Section 7 had 10 teams, (Two Harbors and Silver Bay). The Duluth schools just happened to be the most southern out of the 10 schools, so that was where they drew the line.

You might remember back when Duluth had three Class A schools (before Central closed) one of the Duluth schools was in 5 and the other two in seven

All Class A sections have 9-12 schools in them. There are 2 of each size in them.

I remember these things, as well as plenty others. You could stay within the same size ranges and make things much more logical.
There are some issues with AA also, as well as other sports. AAAA basketball as some weird things down by Lakeville as well.
I'm not saying I care that much, just simply pointing out that if geography, things like drive time for section games, potential revenue, etc, were actually the only thing considered, many sections would likely look very different.

I'm not taking any sort of a jab, but there is clearly something else at play. There is also some way they determine how to decide where to draw lines. Take 5A football for example. There are plenty of teams that could be placed in one section just as easily as another.

Is it 4 guys situation down with an algorithm, is it some guys flipping a coin, or what criteria go into these decisions? That's all I'm asking. If people don't know, speculating does little for the discussion.

http://www.mshsl.org/mshsl/googlemap_new.asp

[defense]

Hmm, interesting. Technically Hermantown belongs in 7a, and either Marshall or denfeld in 5a ...or all in 7a if it could balance by numbers.