Cross Ice Games

[OBOY]

I'm going to take my own scientific research. Here is a list of some top Metro teams at The Squirt level. Remember almost everyone of these kids have played AAA for a min. of 4-5 years. Assuming most AAA clubs play 25-35 games per season, (some more.) and the games they get with the associations.

Edina A-squirts last 2 years, These kids have played 200+ full ice games over the course of their mite and squirt career. Has it hurt them?

Osseo/Maple Grove A squirts- Most of their top kids have played 200+ full ice games

Eden Prairie A squirts- Most of their top kids have played 200+ full ice games

Rosemount A Squirts - Most these kids have played 200+ full ice games.


Apple Valley has been following ADM the longest, I believe 5+ years. These guys used to be a power house. I know they loose a few kids to Eastview but they are no power house either. Apple Valley can barley field 2 bantam teams, Pee-wees are extremely weak and their A squirts were at the bottom of district 8. I've been told by parents in Apple Valley they started loosing numbers cause kids were BORED. Was Apple Valley included in the Scientific research? ADM has not worked for them..

Those top teams have had a combination of both 3-3 and Full Ice. I would say best of luck to every association that follows ADM to a tee.

[goaliewithfoggedglasses]

I emailed Guy Gosselin, the USA Hockey ADM Manager for our region. He said the proposal OTC posted above passed with a unanimous vote. What that means for Minnesota remains to be seen I guess.

[jpiehl]

I emailed Guy Gosselin, the USA Hockey ADM Manager for our region. He said the proposal OTC posted above passed with a unanimous vote. What that means for Minnesota remains to be seen I guess.

If that's true, then it is another fine example of Minnesota Hockey "fighting for us".

[InigoMontoya]

I'm going to take my own scientific research. Here is a list of some top Metro teams at The Squirt level. Remember almost everyone of these kids have played AAA for a min. of 4-5 years. Assuming most AAA clubs play 25-35 games per season, (some more.) and the games they get with the associations.

Edina A-squirts last 2 years, These kids have played 200+ full ice games over the course of their mite and squirt career. Has it hurt them?

Osseo/Maple Grove A squirts- Most of their top kids have played 200+ full ice games

Eden Prairie A squirts- Most of their top kids have played 200+ full ice games

Rosemount A Squirts - Most these kids have played 200+ full ice games.


Apple Valley has been following ADM the longest, I believe 5+ years. These guys used to be a power house. I know they loose a few kids to Eastview but they are no power house either. Apple Valley can barley field 2 bantam teams, Pee-wees are extremely weak and their A squirts were at the bottom of district 8. I've been told by parents in Apple Valley they started loosing numbers cause kids were BORED. Was Apple Valley included in the Scientific research? ADM has not worked for them..

Those top teams have had a combination of both 3-3 and Full Ice. I would say best of luck to every association that follows ADM to a tee.

I'm sure when SECoach's boys play these kids they have the time of their lives.

[AV dad]

I'm going to take my own scientific research. Here is a list of some top Metro teams at The Squirt level. Remember almost everyone of these kids have played AAA for a min. of 4-5 years. Assuming most AAA clubs play 25-35 games per season, (some more.) and the games they get with the associations.

Edina A-squirts last 2 years, These kids have played 200+ full ice games over the course of their mite and squirt career. Has it hurt them?

Osseo/Maple Grove A squirts- Most of their top kids have played 200+ full ice games

Eden Prairie A squirts- Most of their top kids have played 200+ full ice games

Rosemount A Squirts - Most these kids have played 200+ full ice games.


Apple Valley has been following ADM the longest, I believe 5+ years. These guys used to be a power house. I know they loose a few kids to Eastview but they are no power house either. Apple Valley can barley field 2 bantam teams, Pee-wees are extremely weak and their A squirts were at the bottom of district 8. I've been told by parents in Apple Valley they started loosing numbers cause kids were BORED. Was Apple Valley included in the Scientific research? ADM has not worked for them..

Those top teams have had a combination of both 3-3 and Full Ice. I would say best of luck to every association that follows ADM to a tee.

I have been a parent and coach in AV for about 6 years, so I guess that qualifies me to comment, as much as anyone. The reasons for AV's decline are more complicated than to say that a bunch of 8 year olds got bored playing cross-ice games:

-AV lost several talented youngsters to nearby associations, such as Lakeville South.
-The parts of Apple Valley that feed AVHS have a high percentage of households that have raised their children. The high-growth parts of AV tend to feed the Eastview association.
-AVHA hasn't always done a good job of recruiting first-year mites. My impression is that we are holding our own with 6-8 year olds, but we have done poorly with current 10-15 year olds, both on boys' and girls' sides.

My opinion is that the last factor is the biggest.

[Mnhockeys]

I'm going to take my own scientific research. Here is a list of some top Metro teams at The Squirt level. Remember almost everyone of these kids have played AAA for a min. of 4-5 years. Assuming most AAA clubs play 25-35 games per season, (some more.) and the games they get with the associations.

Edina A-squirts last 2 years, These kids have played 200+ full ice games over the course of their mite and squirt career. Has it hurt them?

Osseo/Maple Grove A squirts- Most of their top kids have played 200+ full ice games

Eden Prairie A squirts- Most of their top kids have played 200+ full ice games

Rosemount A Squirts - Most these kids have played 200+ full ice games.


Apple Valley has been following ADM the longest, I believe 5+ years. These guys used to be a power house. I know they loose a few kids to Eastview but they are no power house either. Apple Valley can barley field 2 bantam teams, Pee-wees are extremely weak and their A squirts were at the bottom of district 8. I've been told by parents in Apple Valley they started loosing numbers cause kids were BORED. Was Apple Valley included in the Scientific research? ADM has not worked for them..

Those top teams have had a combination of both 3-3 and Full Ice. I would say best of luck to every association that follows ADM to a tee.

I have been a parent and coach in AV for about 6 years, so I guess that qualifies me to comment, as much as anyone. The reasons for AV's decline are more complicated than to say that a bunch of 8 year olds got bored playing cross-ice games:

-AV lost several talented youngsters to nearby associations, such as Lakeville South.
-The parts of Apple Valley that feed AVHS have a high percentage of households that have raised their children. The high-growth parts of AV tend to feed the Eastview association.
-AVHA hasn't always done a good job of recruiting first-year mites. My impression is that we are holding our own with 6-8 year olds, but we have done poorly with current 10-15 year olds, both on boys' and girls' sides.

My opinion is that the last factor is the biggest.

AVHA website appears disappointing too!

[goaliewithfoggedglasses]

Here is the response I received from Minnesota Hockey:

"USA Hockey did adopt a rule that the standard playing surface for Mites and younger is cross-ice or half-ice surface beginning the 2013-14 season. In the rule there is a provision for states to apply for exceptions to the rule of no full ice games. Minnesota will be applying for an exception. A committee will be developing the details but it will likely be Mini-Mites (6U) cross-ice and/or half ice, Mites (8U) half-ice with six to nine full ice games after January 1 of the season. The requests for exceptions are due to the USA Hockey Player Development Committee for their consideration and approval in May of 2013 for the 13-14 season."

[flpucknut]

I've been saying it for 3 years...pretty much ever since my son got into the wonderful world of Association, MN, and USA hockey rules.

*In 5-10 years all skilled kids will be playing in private leagues year round*

Association hockey will become "in house" hockey and without numbers simply won't be able to afford the ice time. There are more and more options out there for kids and parents...if they don't like the rules being set upon them they can now simply join another league, hand pick the team they want their kid on and insure that the coach is someone they see as a positive influence. Its not an option for everyone in the metro but its coming, mark my words.

[old goalie85]

So you have been saying it for 3 yrs, and you think "all the skilled kids will be playing in private leagues year round in 5 yrs" So in the next year or two we will have no skilled kids left ?? People have been saying this for15 yrs. I heard this when my 94 was a squirt, I heard it when my 98 was a squirt , yes I still hear it now that my01 and 02s are squirts. [ yes I remember the Fire] That fact is we have a ton of options. It's not perfect, but , when winter is over[and your sick of the parents from your assc. you can play MASH, then you get sick of them, play AAA, get fustrated w/that play some football/fall league. Then start the cycle over again.

[flpucknut]

5-10, and there simply are more options now than there were 5 years ago. With more popping up every year.

My point is that the governing bodies are making decisions that many people don't agree with for one reason or another. When there is only one gas station in town that's where you buy your gas. When two or three brand new ones pop up with more options, better service and perks, most people will buy their gas there.

I'm not saying its the right thing, I hate to see association hockey lose kids. I think its important for kids to play with kids they grow up with. However the parents writing the checks are starting to compare association vs. private more and more and when they don't think they are getting their money's worth associations will lose kids. Its already happening, and will only get worse.

[The Enlightened One]

5-10, and there simply are more options now than there were 5 years ago. With more popping up every year.

My point is that the governing bodies are making decisions that many people don't agree with for one reason or another. When there is only one gas station in town that's where you buy your gas. When two or three brand new ones pop up with more options, better service and perks, most people will buy their gas there.

I'm not saying its the right thing, I hate to see association hockey lose kids. I think its important for kids to play with kids they grow up with. However the parents writing the checks are starting to compare association vs. private more and more and when they don't think they are getting their money's worth associations will lose kids. Its already happening, and will only get worse.

This is a fight that has been going on on this board for awhile. There are a couple of teams (SSM and that girls team up in Duluth) that have gone another route. Not sure if there is enough support to start an AAU league in MN but am sure that there are people who are looking at it. Will be interesting to see how MN Hockey reacts to it and how much impact MN Hockey has on USA Hockey.

[O-townClown]

Enlightened:

"Choice" is essentially the Twin Cities' AAU.

[The Enlightened One]

That makes sense. From what I have seen with kids of my own who have played both full ice and cross ice at the Mite level I think cross ice is better. I have a couple of those slower to develop kids who are not those puck chasing speed burners who never got to touch the puck on a full sheet of ice. On the cross ice games they were in the play and handling the puck and actually grew to like hockey a lot more. The issue of transitioning into the full ice game is there though as neither one of them had a clue as to what to do with the blue lines when they got there (their teammates were in the same boat) so our coach spent a few practices running with that theme and got everybody up to speed, more or less.

[black sheep]

amazing what the powers to be come up with.

The Roseau / Warroad kids who were A squirts last year have been playing full ice games against each other since they were tiny mites.

I think any of the city teams that played them in Fargo would agree there is not a shortage of skill.

It has nothing to do with cross ice / full ice, but the availability of ice in general. 3 on 3 cross ice is a great development tool but to mandate that is ridiculous. Let kids play games and get them unstructured ice as much as you can.

if cross ice gets you twice as much ice time / dollar that is wonderful.

[O-townClown]

Black, I agree with you. I hope you understand that what happens in Roseau and Warroad is not the norm across the country.

[flpucknut]

That makes sense. From what I have seen with kids of my own who have played both full ice and cross ice at the Mite level I think cross ice is better. I have a couple of those slower to develop kids who are not those puck chasing speed burners who never got to touch the puck on a full sheet of ice. On the cross ice games they were in the play and handling the puck and actually grew to like hockey a lot more. The issue of transitioning into the full ice game is there though as neither one of them had a clue as to what to do with the blue lines when they got there (their teammates were in the same boat) so our coach spent a few practices running with that theme and got everybody up to speed, more or less.

Exaclty, I think both have their place. Forcing one option on MN hockey is the thing people have a problem with.

[O-townClown]

My USA Hockey magazine arrived a couple days ago. There is some text at the bottom of the cover that says something like "Mite Mandate Passes" and the story inside says this is a full-blown mandate. USA Hockey will require Mites to play half-ice or cross-ice by 2013-14.

[OBOY]

My USA Hockey magazine arrived a couple days ago. There is some text at the bottom of the cover that says something like "Mite Mandate Passes" and the story inside says this is a full-blown mandate. USA Hockey will require Mites to play half-ice or cross-ice by 2013-14.

The only guy in town with a huge Smile on his face is Bernie.. He might as well add another rink if that is true.

[Section 8 guy]

My USA Hockey magazine arrived a couple days ago. There is some text at the bottom of the cover that says something like "Mite Mandate Passes" and the story inside says this is a full-blown mandate. USA Hockey will require Mites to play half-ice or cross-ice by 2013-14.

Our association plays all cross ice games through mites. I wouldn't want it any other way. It's a marathon not a sprint guys.

[Toomuchtoosoon]

It does not matter cross ice or full ice at mites. The best kids will still be the best kids. Get over it people.

I do agree that it will strengthen programs like MM as long as parents feel then need an early advantage. The private sector will benefit from this.

I also think that USA hockey overstepped their authority here. You will need approval if your association wants to run a jamboree at the end of the year, which is about as ridiculous as it gets.

In the end, it will not matter. Hopefully it will make association hockey a little cheaper.

[SCBlueLiner]

I also think USA Hockey overstepped here. Minnesota isn't the only state unhappy, there is out and out revolt going on to the south in Missouri.

I agree with cross ice for the younger kids but as the kids approach 8 they have to start playing a mix of cross and full ice games, especially for the more talented kids. There is a time, place, and frequency for both. I've noticed in cross ice, while it does help with learning to stickhandle in a phone booth, the kids don't get the opportunity to stretch their legs and fly and there is an awful lot of standing around. Why move when the puck will eventually be coming back around to you? This will eventually lead to kids that age becoming poorer open ice skaters.

There is a summer camp our organization puts on for the kids every other weekend. Those kids coming out of mites into squirts are far, far behind the second year squirts and those first years fortunate enough to have played on a team this summer.

Instead of an outright ban why not just put a limit on how many full ice games/tournaments a team can play in a season and continue to encourage cross ice play and cross ice tournaments? SAG's and ADM have caught hold where I'm at. Coaches are grabbing onto and using the ideas USA Hockey is putting out, even our high schoolers are playing SAG's, something we never did back in the day. USA Hockey didn't need to go so heavy handed and force everyone into compliance.

There are things USA Hockey does right and things they do wrong. This is something that is wrong. They need to start listening to their members, especially the ones with hockey history. Easy to force ADM down those in the SE or SW US, alot of those fledgling programs don't know any better and will do whatever they are told.

[O-townClown]

Easy to force ADM down those in the SE or SW US, alot of those fledgling programs don't know any better and will do whatever they are told.

Not in the Southeast!

[SnowedIn]

I also think USA Hockey overstepped here. Minnesota isn't the only state unhappy, there is out and out revolt going on to the south in Missouri.

I agree with cross ice for the younger kids but as the kids approach 8 they have to start playing a mix of cross and full ice games, especially for the more talented kids. There is a time, place, and frequency for both. I've noticed in cross ice, while it does help with learning to stickhandle in a phone booth, the kids don't get the opportunity to stretch their legs and fly and there is an awful lot of standing around. Why move when the puck will eventually be coming back around to you? This will eventually lead to kids that age becoming poorer open ice skaters.

There is a summer camp our organization puts on for the kids every other weekend. Those kids coming out of mites into squirts are far, far behind the second year squirts and those first years fortunate enough to have played on a team this summer.

Instead of an outright ban why not just put a limit on how many full ice games/tournaments a team can play in a season and continue to encourage cross ice play and cross ice tournaments? SAG's and ADM have caught hold where I'm at. Coaches are grabbing onto and using the ideas USA Hockey is putting out, even our high schoolers are playing SAG's, something we never did back in the day. USA Hockey didn't need to go so heavy handed and force everyone into compliance.

There are things USA Hockey does right and things they do wrong. This is something that is wrong. They need to start listening to their members, especially the ones with hockey history. Easy to force ADM down those in the SE or SW US, alot of those fledgling programs don't know any better and will do whatever they are told.

No offense but "stretch their legs and fly"? They're mites - they'll get plenty of opportunity to fly in practice and a mite can fly in cross ice game. Besides most of the game is battles, stops and starts and all of the skills that go with that. "Hockey History"? The problem I have with this kind of talk is that Minnesota has ton of kids playing the sport and a handful of diamonds in the rough and kids that get extra skill work outside of their associations are the ones moving to the top of the heap. But the majority of kids do not have the hands or the skating skills and is evident at PW, Bantam and even High School. That's a direct result of the training the players and teams are getting. USA Hockey is trying to implement some standards that leading hockey training programs are using that have produced superior results. MN hockey has a good thing going with tremendous participation but leaves a lot on the table and has a lot of room to grow in terms of developing talent in its programs. Cross ice, skills stations, coaching education are some of the things that are being introduced to help US hockey catch up to some of the leading hockey countries. I don't agree with everything that USAH is doing but its moving in the right direction.

And IMO cross ice games for mites is definitely the way to go.

[SCBlueLiner]

Never said cross ice games were a bad thing. In fact I pointed out where coaches in our organization are using them all the way up to high school level. I'm just saying there has to be some sort of balance.

Yes, when kids, even as youngt as mites, are put into full ice games there are those kids who then get to use their exceptional speed and play a more wide open game. So stretching their legs and building up their leg muscles is an appropriate term.

[JSR]

My assocation went to this model last year and my youngest son is effected by it. The games played were half ice games and not cross ice so the area was a bit bigger and the games were 4v4 not 3v3. We were not "mandated" to do it, however the problem was that all the other southern WI associations went to that model and so did all of the Milwaukee associations so had we stayed full ice we literally wold have had no one to play. A league was formed so that all the assocaitions were playing the same game on weekends etc... Supposedly no score was kept but I will tell you my son knew exactly what the score was after every game. That said there were alot of upsides. One is that there was a Red, White and Blue system put in place. Red=Ateam, White=B and Blue=C. So when the league formed Red played Red, White played White from other associations etc.... but what I really liked was the fact that kids could be re-evaluated continually throughout the season and could be reassigned to a different color based on their skill progression. There was a madated maximum of 9 players per team so when re-evals took place if there were 9 kids on the Red team and a blue team kid had surpassed a Red team kid the Red team kid was placed on blue and the blue placed on Red. So our assocation had evaluations before the season stated, did them again in early december and then did them again in late January. Lastly, at the very end of the season the kids were allowed to play a couple of full ice scrimmages and one full ice tourney, these all occurred in the latter part of February and in to early March. They were a nice "treat" for the kids hard work.

Was there resistance a first, yes. Was 100% great, NO. Did the sky fall and the kids quit playing, NO. Did some parents of kids who got "demoted" during the season get a little pissy at times, YES. Did they come around when they saw that their kid started geting more puck time by moving down and were actually getting better because of it, YES.

I will say this, my older son went through the old school way of doing things and that being Mites playing full ice, my youngest just went through this new way of doing things (the younger kid was a "fist year" mite and has two more years to go). The younger boy is way more advanced than te older boy at the saem age and the older boy is a legit AAA invite level player so he's good and was always one of the top kids on his association teams. But knowing the younger boy has little brother syndrom and works hard at trying to "catch up" you'd think I would have not liked this at all but after going through it and seeing both the upside and downsides if you made me pick I'd choose this new way of doing things. Hoenstly way more kids were way more capable of playing on the full ice surface at the end of the season than what I ever saw in my older boys age group when they played mites and for the good kids playing in tighter spaces helped them improve their skills way more than playing full ice. I do believe the kids should be rewarded with a handful of full ice games at the end of teh season but I am on board with the half ice games and the ADM practices for the majority of the season. My two cents