Participation Numbers Declining?

Shinbone_News · Post by **Shinbone_News** » Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:35 am

Here's a question: Do other sports demand as much "off-season" training? I only know about soccer, and it seems like at higher levels there are lots of off-season leagues and development. Same for basketball and baseball? Football?

My guess is that hockey is by far the most time-consuming and expensive, if you are a parent who craves elite status for your kid and are willing to write those checks year-round.

But maybe not -- it would be interesting to hear how many hours of training go into an elite soccer player's year vs. hockey.

That all said, I'm confident hockey is not losing its A or B1 players -- there's tremendous pressure from peers, family and internally to keep playing, and there's usually a genuine love for and investment in the game by the time you are a PeeWee A, for example. On the other hand, maybe the economy is making some of these kids a little bolder about saying, "You know what, dad? I'm kinda burned out on hockey."

C-dad · Post by **C-dad** » Tue Sep 27, 2011 7:52 am

goaliewithfoggedglasses wrote:
C-dad wrote:I heard tonight Edina has 129 skaters registered for bantam tryouts. Not bad until you realize this same group of kids had 175 skaters two years ago for peewees, a 26% drop. Some may be going directly to C teams and not trying out, but I don't think there is a large number doing that.
135 total for bantams. Numbers are down across the board, approximately 1100 vs 1400 last year all though mite registration is still open for a couple of weeks. That's probably only another 50 or so.

Shinbone_News wrote:I wonder if some of them are waiving out to other open-enrollment schools to play JV or even varsity??? Or bantams at an association that feeds into a high school with better odds?

Maybe some Edina parents are using the economy to "get real" about their kid's chances at a slot on the high school roster?

Love to hear someone from Edina chime in on this.
Nobody open enrolls out of Edina schools. They might choose to go to a private school but not another public. Some of it is just demographics and some is the economy IMO.

There are definately kids going to privates where they'll have a better shot at varsity. Nothing new there. Another hockey dad told me that was his case when he was in school in the 80s, he went to Breck as he knew he wouldn't make the Edina vasity.

Some families just choose the privates for academics and smaller class sizes as well. Some of those will stay in the EHA until they make the varisty (see Johnny Austin of a couple years ago leaving the bantam As for Blake's varisty).

observer · Post by **observer** » Tue Sep 27, 2011 9:54 am

Families with younger players will face decisions. When your athlete is 10 you can do it all. What happens as they age is each of the sports, whether it's two or three, starts to demand more dedication. Not only do the schedules go from 2-3 days a week to 4-5 but the expense increases proportionately. So now the schedules get packed as some months, August comes to mind, the kid might be involved in 3 sports. Could be summer hockey, fall baseball and soccer. That didn't happen when they were 10. The top players in each sport are dedicated year around to that sport. Having kids play at the highest level in more than one sport becomes very difficult, demanding of time and money. In high school more than two sports is really difficult as high school sports are 6 days a week. The fall sport is immediately followed by the winter sport. Same in the spring. Playing one sport at the highest level might mean playing a second one without placing the same demands and expectations. The hockey coach isn't going to give you advice about football or baseball. Remember, his title is hockey coach and that's his interest. Your title is parent so it's your responsibility to sort out what's best for your athlete remembering school has to be number one. In the end a player with a better report card may take a spot from your athlete who has a better yards per carry average, GAA, pitching winning percentage, etc. The report card, and test scores, trump athletic performance.

C-dad · Post by **C-dad** » Tue Sep 27, 2011 8:32 pm

Just saw the numbers for Edina PWs and they have 159 total kids out, skaters and goalies.

InigoMontoya · Post by **InigoMontoya** » Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:27 am

C-dad wrote:I heard tonight Edina has 129 skaters registered for bantam tryouts. Not bad until you realize this same group of kids had 175 skaters two years ago for peewees, a 26% drop. Some may be going directly to C teams and not trying out, but I don't think there is a large number doing that.

What was the number of bantams 4 years ago, compared to the number of peewees 6 years ago? Would be interesting to see the %age drop prior to the recession.

C-dad · Post by **C-dad** » Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:53 am

InigoMontoya wrote:
C-dad wrote:I heard tonight Edina has 129 skaters registered for bantam tryouts. Not bad until you realize this same group of kids had 175 skaters two years ago for peewees, a 26% drop. Some may be going directly to C teams and not trying out, but I don't think there is a large number doing that.
What was the number of bantams 4 years ago, compared to the number of peewees 6 years ago? Would be interesting to see the %age drop prior to the recession.

I know someone has those numbers but it's not me. I'm not an insider, just a dad. They would be interesting numbers to see though.

ripping1 · Post by **ripping1** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:19 pm

Wayzata has something like 83 total teams mini mite through bantams. There numbers are not dropping. To bad they can't waive some out to the associations struggling to fill minimal teams.

zooomx · Post by **zooomx** » Fri Oct 07, 2011 9:23 am

Alex numbers have been growing pretty consistently, especially on the girls side. 100 mite/mini mites and pushing 60 u6/u8 girls this year.

Under $100 for skaters in their first 2 years, plus the association loans them the equipment.

hockeycentral · Post by **hockeycentral** » Fri Oct 07, 2011 2:28 pm

duluth lakers, which is now denfeld hunters bantam, had 19 skater and 4 goalies sign up, with ninth graders going to JV and some kids wanting to go back to east and play, no bantam a team this year, 1 B-1 team and combined B-2 team with east. east bantams had 64 kids or so, goalies included, numbers are down out west, east is doing okay yet

observer · Post by **observer** » Fri Oct 07, 2011 2:54 pm

Why are there two youth associations in Duluth? Why would a youth association bantam team be called Denfeld or East? Those are high schools that have nothing to do with youth hockey. Time to get this fixed with some new sensible leadership.

defense · Post by **defense** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:10 pm

I have been thinking for a long time that less kids turning out for hockey is a function of: there's just fewer kids out there. This is true in my western MN town. Maybe not so in the metro.
That said I am happy to say that I think a few beginner programs in our association have actually boosted the numbers in the past couple years. OUr association is well established and the town is a bigger town for the area, my older son is a 4th grader, he has about 7 boy classmates who play hockey

InigoMontoya · Post by **InigoMontoya** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:00 am

defense wrote:I have been thinking for a long time that less kids turning out for hockey is a function of: there's just fewer kids out there. This is true in my western MN town. Maybe not so in the metro.
That said I am happy to say that I think a few beginner programs in our association have actually boosted the numbers in the past couple years. OUr association is well established and the town is a bigger town for the area, my older son is a 4th grader, he has about 7 boy classmates who play hockey

The entire 4th grade only has 8 boys playing hockey? How many boys are in the 4th grade?

jBlaze3000 · Post by **jBlaze3000** » Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:37 pm

InigoMontoya wrote:
defense wrote:I have been thinking for a long time that less kids turning out for hockey is a function of: there's just fewer kids out there. This is true in my western MN town. Maybe not so in the metro.
That said I am happy to say that I think a few beginner programs in our association have actually boosted the numbers in the past couple years. OUr association is well established and the town is a bigger town for the area, my older son is a 4th grader, he has about 7 boy classmates who play hockey
The entire 4th grade only has 8 boys playing hockey? How many boys are in the 4th grade?

I read it as 7 classmates out of 1 class (maybe 25 kids) play hockey which is actually pretty impressive.

InigoMontoya · Post by **InigoMontoya** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:58 am

jBlaze3000 wrote:
InigoMontoya wrote:
defense wrote:I have been thinking for a long time that less kids turning out for hockey is a function of: there's just fewer kids out there. This is true in my western MN town. Maybe not so in the metro.
That said I am happy to say that I think a few beginner programs in our association have actually boosted the numbers in the past couple years. OUr association is well established and the town is a bigger town for the area, my older son is a 4th grader, he has about 7 boy classmates who play hockey
The entire 4th grade only has 8 boys playing hockey? How many boys are in the 4th grade?
I read it as 7 classmates out of 1 class (maybe 25 kids) play hockey which is actually pretty impressive.

I guess I don't understand the post. Bigger western town would have about 8 4th grade classes - 8 X 8 = 64. Add that many 5th graders and you have western suburb numbers, not western town numbers.

Maybe he meant enrollment has declined, or the ratio of boys to girls has shifted???

old goalie85 · Post by **old goalie85** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 7:21 pm

Anyone know how Morehead is doing ?? I saw the Strib had an article pertaining to the oil business and surplus of jobs up there. Wondering if that helped out the hockey #'s.

InigoMontoya · Post by **InigoMontoya** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 8:11 pm

I don't know how far west defense is, but since STMA has come up many times on the squirt and peewee threads and there are several posters from there that are out of the closet, from the outside they seem like a good example of successful recruitment and retention. On past threads, I have compared them to a similarly sized foe within their district that has two sheets of ice to their one sheet - Willmar, which has struggled to field more than one bantam team the last few years. More interesting than Willmar, however, seems to be Hutchinson, which also has two sheets of ice and is quite a bit closer to the high powered western suburbs.

C-dad brought up the interesting idea of what has happened from peewees to bantams. Two years ago STMA and Hutchinson sent peewee A teams to represent D5 in regional play; both finished 2nd in their respective pools; both played for a chance to go to state in the cross-over game. STMA has had a little movement, e.g. a kid go to SSM, but looks to field several competitive teams at the bantam level - they may not be quite as good as they'll be next year or in the coming years after that, but they'll take the ice expecting to compete in and win a majority of their games. Hutchinson, in contrast, is rumored to only be able to field one bantam team.

What is happening in two similarly sized towns that is creating vastly different results in association hockey in these two communities? In the tale of these two cities may lie the key to successful hockey in all corners of the state.

Shinbone_News · Post by **Shinbone_News** » Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:35 am

My guess: Basketball is happening in Hutch.

http://www.hutchinsonyba.com/?p=541

Unimaginable. incredible, absurd, sad -- I know.

Benito Juarez · Post by **Benito Juarez** » Tue Oct 18, 2011 8:02 am

Shinbone_News wrote:My guess: Basketball is happening in Hutch.

http://www.hutchinsonyba.com/?p=541

Unimaginable. incredible, absurd, sad -- I know.

Good for Hutch, about time somebody challenges the evil empire of youth hockey for participants.

Zebos · Post by **Zebos** » Tue Oct 18, 2011 8:50 am

old goalie85 wrote:Anyone know how Morehead is doing ?? I saw the Strib had an article pertaining to the oil business and surplus of jobs up there. Wondering if that helped out the hockey #'s.

Moorhead has 51 players trying out for Bantams, 45 skaters and 6 goalies and will have 3 bantam teams this year. Three players did not sign up that were signed up last year and I think it is safe to say those three players just lost interest in hockey or discovered they did not like the physical side of the game. I am not sure of the exact numbers within Peewees and Squirts but I know they have larger numbers of participants and I have not heard anybody say there is a decline in numbers compared to last year.

old goalie85 · Post by **old goalie85** » Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:32 am

thanks- I thought due to the strong economy up there more kids would be playing than ever before. Are those #'s higher or lower than normal?

observer · Post by **observer** » Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:04 am

That number would be reflected in new mite, boy and girl, registrations. The key is growth every season at the mite level.

C-dad · Post by **C-dad** » Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:18 am

Further points on Edina Bantam numbers. At least 3 kids dropped out when they dropped to the C teams.

Two kids who were locks for the A team did not try out as they will tryout for varsity or JV. One kid did not skate till the C skate at the end. Final numbers are about 126 skaters vs 175 for PW from same group 2 years ago and 13 goalies vs 20 two years ago. Nine teams vs 11. One A, two B1, three B2 and 3 C. Two years ago we had 5 C teams in PW.

The A team has 17 skaters and 2 goalies, one skater injured and out till January. C teams have 12 or 13 skaters and a goalie, B1s have 15 skaters and two goalies, B2s have 15 skaters and either 1 or 2 goalies.

Benito Juarez · Post by **Benito Juarez** » Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:20 am

Zebos wrote:
old goalie85 wrote:Anyone know how Morehead is doing ?? I saw the Strib had an article pertaining to the oil business and surplus of jobs up there. Wondering if that helped out the hockey #'s.
Moorhead has 51 players trying out for Bantams, 45 skaters and 6 goalies and will have 3 bantam teams this year. Three players did not sign up that were signed up last year and I think it is safe to say those three players just lost interest in hockey or discovered they did not like the physical side of the game. I am not sure of the exact numbers within Peewees and Squirts but I know they have larger numbers of participants and I have not heard anybody say there is a decline in numbers compared to last year.

You need to factor in the Fargo teams as well. By the time High School rolls around a few top end players always seem to find the underground tunnel going East.

SWPrez · Post by **SWPrez** » Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:16 pm

Minneapolis numbers are good. We reviewed registration at our board meeting last night. We still register mighty mites/6U right up to Thanksgiving.

2009-10 - 590 Final
2010-11 - 635 Final
2011-12 - Currently 625

Last year at this time, 2010-11, we were at 570 registrants and ended up with 635 (again, huge increase in Mighty Mite/6U as soccer ended and the weather got colder).

If on that same track as last year, we should be at the 675-700 range for 2011-12.

C-dad · Post by **C-dad** » Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:49 pm

SWPrez wrote:Minneapolis numbers are good. We reviewed registration at our board meeting last night. We still register mighty mites/6U right up to Thanksgiving.

2009-10 - 590 Final
2010-11 - 635 Final
2011-12 - Currently 625

Last year at this time, 2010-11, we were at 570 registrants and ended up with 635 (again, huge increase in Mighty Mite/6U as soccer ended and the weather got colder).

If on that same track as last year, we should be at the 675-700 range for 2011-12.

Good for you SW! Great to see.

Say, if you have any bantam C players without a team, refer to the post from Edina hockey. We're looking for some more C players to fill out a couple teams.