Def'n of Tier I

O-townClown · Post by **O-townClown** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:23 am

Q, your posts aren't substantive at all.

Name one benefit to registering Tier I. One. (Aside from the obvious about being eligible for Nationals.)

I know, I know. I'm clueless and you'll probably resort to calling names or something. Why is it that when your reasoning is challenged you won't answer directly or your responses are vague. Inside confidential sources. You keep their confidentiality but won't share what they said. Whatever.

I've paid attention to the three vocal people in these threads that are challenging status quo. This summer you are banging the drum, last year it was Bo. Rather than say I haven't been listening, answer the question.

MrBoDangles · Post by **MrBoDangles** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:38 am

O-townClown wrote:Q, your posts aren't substantive at all.

Name one benefit to registering Tier I. One. (Aside from the obvious about being eligible for Nationals.)

I know, I know. I'm clueless and you'll probably resort to calling names or something. Why is it that when your reasoning is challenged you won't answer directly or your responses are vague. Inside confidential sources. You keep their confidentiality but won't share what they said. Whatever.

I've paid attention to the three vocal people in these threads that are challenging status quo. This summer you are banging the drum, last year it was Bo. Rather than say I haven't been listening, answer the question.

It's hard to not get frustrated with you when you're not willing to see it from the other side.

All those Fire families chose that path for one reason or another, they obviously had their reasons. Now, what should be their right, is taken away.

What if Florida had decided to keep Hockey out of the state because it got in the way of their rich tradition of.............. bass fishing?

*The benefit is that it gave many families an option and FREEDOM.

Quasar · Post by **Quasar** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:22 pm

O-townClown wrote:Q, your posts aren't substantive at all.

Name one benefit to registering Tier I. One. (Aside from the obvious about being eligible for Nationals.)

I know, I know. I'm clueless and you'll probably resort to calling names or something. Why is it that when your reasoning is challenged you won't answer directly or your responses are vague. Inside confidential sources. You keep their confidentiality but won't share what they said. Whatever.

I've paid attention to the three vocal people in these threads that are challenging status quo. This summer you are banging the drum, last year it was Bo. Rather than say I haven't been listening, answer the question.

Quasar has left the building!!!

O-townClown · Post by **O-townClown** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:36 pm

MrBoDangles wrote:It's hard to not get frustrated with you when you're not willing to see it from the other side.

All those Fire families chose that path for one reason or another, they obviously had their reasons. Now, what should be their right, is taken away.

What if Florida had decided to keep Hockey out of the state because it got in the way of their rich tradition of.............. bass fishing?

*The benefit is that it gave many families an option and FREEDOM.

While you're out of the building, I hope you find your mind. Clearly you have lost it. Simple question, and you can't answer. Aside from eligibility for the USA Hockey National Championship, what is one (just one) benefit of registering Tier I?

Last year Fire families chose to play for an Independent team. (I'm not sure if terminology is same as it is here. Maybe it was officially 'unaffiliated' or 'unclassified' or something.) They had their reasons, and seemingly were okay with not being Tier I.

As far as rights being taken away, not sure what you are talking about. Are some kids unable to play hockey?

Florida's affiliate, like the one governing Minnesota and the one governing Wisconsin, are obligated to work for the growth of participation. Not sure why you'd pose a hypothetical where the affiliate was anti-hockey. How much for Airheads on Neptune? Anyone can pose a nonsensical question.

What does an unclassified option have to do with Tier I benefits? You make no sense. (I assume your last comment was in reference to Wisconsin Fire.)

I see all sides of issues. You don't. Can you show how allowance of Tier I hockey leaves the rest of Minnesota's community-based model unaffected? No. You can't, and nobody can. Which is why Minnesota Hockey has been slow to blow up something that works well.

If (you say when) things change, it will be carefully planned. As it should be. (You disagree.)

Just answer the freakin' question. Name one benefit to Tier I. Only one I see is eligibility for Bantam nationals, plus PW this final year. Midgets too if we are talking about high-level USA Hockey sanctioned teams attracting strong HS age players.

MrBoDangles · Post by **MrBoDangles** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:37 pm

O-townClown wrote:
MrBoDangles wrote:It's hard to not get frustrated with you when you're not willing to see it from the other side.

All those Fire families chose that path for one reason or another, they obviously had their reasons. Now, what should be their right, is taken away.

What if Florida had decided to keep Hockey out of the state because it got in the way of their rich tradition of.............. bass fishing?

*The benefit is that it gave many families an option and FREEDOM.
While you're out of the building, I hope you find your mind. Clearly you have lost it. Simple question, and you can't answer. Aside from eligibility for the USA Hockey National Championship, what is one (just one) benefit of registering Tier I?

Last year Fire families chose to play for an Independent team. (I'm not sure if terminology is same as it is here. Maybe it was officially 'unaffiliated' or 'unclassified' or something.) They had their reasons, and seemingly were okay with not being Tier I.

As far as rights being taken away, not sure what you are talking about. Are some kids unable to play hockey?

Florida's affiliate, like the one governing Minnesota and the one governing Wisconsin, are obligated to work for the growth of participation. Not sure why you'd pose a hypothetical where the affiliate was anti-hockey. How much for Airheads on Neptune? Anyone can pose a nonsensical question.

What does an unclassified option have to do with Tier I benefits? You make no sense. (I assume your last comment was in reference to Wisconsin Fire.)

I see all sides of issues. You don't. Can you show how allowance of Tier I hockey leaves the rest of Minnesota's community-based model unaffected? No. You can't, and nobody can. Which is why Minnesota Hockey has been slow to blow up something that works well.

If (you say when) things change, it will be carefully planned. As it should be. (You disagree.)

Just answer the freakin' question. Name one benefit to Tier I. Only one I see is eligibility for Bantam nationals, plus PW this final year. Midgets too if we are talking about high-level USA Hockey sanctioned teams attracting strong HS age players.

Something other than border bound association Hockey. Some would have multiple benefits if they had better options than their local "sub par" association.

I'm confused by your off the wall behavior.......? "Freakin'" and "Find my mind"

You sound sooo obviously defeated.

O-townClown · Post by **O-townClown** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:40 am

MrBoDangles wrote:Something other than border bound association Hockey. Some would have multiple benefits if they had better options than their local "sub par" association.

I'm confused by your off the wall behavior.......? "Freakin'" and "Find my mind"

You sound sooo obviously defeated.

Bo, my apologies. I was reading a small Blackberry screen and thought the last two posts were from Quasar. I see now one was yours and one was his. There is a reason I don't look at this site on my phone.

The question I asked isn't about "something other than border bound association hockey." I asked about Tier I.

There are obviously many reasons why some parents desire an option other than their association. I see them all and fully understand. What's puzzling is why, judging from this board, there is no movement to work with USA Hockey to pursue avenues like Tournament teams (only one District presently uses these) and Independent (or Unclassified or whatever the Fire is).

The only reason I see for needing Tier I status versus another designation is to go to Nationals, and after this year Pee Wees go away. Q tells me I don't understand and that I'm just not listening, but I still haven't seen anyone mention a second reason.

Nobody could define Tier I when I asked that question, which makes sense since it doesn't seem to be very well defined by USA Hockey. If it is listed in the Annual Guide, I missed it. Judging from posts on this board, I'll wager that almost everyone doesn't understand the other permissable roster designations either. A few folks are familiar with what the Fire went through. There are also Recreational, Tournament, and Tier II. Not everywhere, but some places.

The club model versus association is the way hockey is most everywhere else. And nearly all clubs are Tier II. You can have program choice without Tier I. Yet over and over and over again I read on this board that there is a push for Tier I.

Why isn't there a push for other alternatives to community-based team formation?

Deep Breath · Post by **Deep Breath** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:55 am

Why does there have to be more than 1 reason?

O-townClown · Post by **O-townClown** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:42 am

Deep Breath wrote:Why does there have to be more than 1 reason?

If the only reason to seek Tier I status is to play at Nationals, you just aren't affecting enough kids to expect a lot of support for reform.

I simply asked the question why so much discussion about Tier I and none (that I recall) about seeking other structures that result in things like an alternative to community-defined programs for whatever reason, an easier time finding a team at an appropriate skill level, and the chance to field teams in line with national age groups in order to play more out of state.

Quasar says I'm not listening. Doesn't seem like that's the case when nobody can name a second reason. Why not explore other designations?

Hey, not my battle. It just doesn't make sense. Unless the argument is that in asking Minnesota Hockey to revise definitions for their allowable team codes, "we'll just ask for the sky all at once."

I came up with another idea to address the program choice issue. What if each District has a "catch-all" program to be home to those that don't want to play where they live. Stipulation of no post-season eligibility. Big questions over who would run this, but it seems like a workable Tier II option that would not have a lot of impact on most communities. Out of 12 Districts, I wonder how many teams would form.

Maybe you can apply for the District "charter" on a one-year basis. I see a lot of potential problems, but it would certainly have benefits too.

royals dad · Post by **royals dad** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 8:47 am

Reason 2: The grass is always greener.

It is basic human nature to want what you cant have. If you say no to people they think your keeping something really good away from them.

The whole Tier 1 is a better way to develop high end players or that it represents some level of personal freedom is in my opinion a load of dung but if you get enough people believing it ... At least the clown from Florida is talking about the USA Hockey system from within it and if you listen he is trying to tell you don't break what you have it is the best thing going.

To say MN hockey has no where to go for top players indicates you have very little knowledge of what is out there. The HS camps are just about done and Elite Leagues are just starting.Plus with the way Minnesota does advance 15s the top 96s are still skating and have not stopped since the hockey season ended. That is 2 scrimmage fests, 2 week long camps, 1 half week camp, and about 20 practices.

You guys are throwing around ADM and HPCs, please note per ADM players under 14 should be in their 2nd or 3rd sport right now, Peewee hockey should be a 7 month a year endeavor, kids should not play up, and parents should focus less on the outcomes (that is why they are eliminating Peewee Nationals). You can see on this board how tourneys like the Subway or Brick turn adults perspectives into mush and they post about their kids team like 9 year olds.

Q, Bo, HD41 - You have all been touting the HPCs now go read the guide http://www.admkids.com/pdf/ADMGuide_2011.pdf

Benito Juarez · Post by **Benito Juarez** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:07 am

royals dad wrote:Reason 2: The grass is always greener.

It is basic human nature to want what you cant have. If you say no to people they think your keeping something really good away from them.

The whole Tier 1 is a better way to develop high end players or that it represents some level of personal freedom is in my opinion a load of dung but if you get enough people believing it ... At least the clown from Florida is talking about the USA Hockey system from within it and if you listen he is trying to tell you don't break what you have it is the best thing going.

To say MN hockey has no where to go for top players indicates you have very little knowledge of what is out there. The HS camps are just about done and Elite Leagues are just starting.Plus with the way Minnesota does advance 15s the top 96s are still skating and have not stopped since the hockey season ended. That is 2 scrimmage fests, 2 week long camps, 1 half week camp, and about 20 practices.

You guys are throwing around ADM and HPCs, please note per ADM players under 14 should be in their 2nd or 3rd sport right now, Peewee hockey should be a 7 month a year endeavor, kids should not play up, and parents should focus less on the outcomes (that is why they are eliminating Peewee Nationals). You can see on this board how tourneys like the Subway or Brick turn adults perspectives into mush and they post about their kids team like 9 year olds.

Q, Bo, HD41 - You have all been touting the HPCs now go read the guide http://www.admkids.com/pdf/ADMGuide_2011.pdf

the_juiceman · Post by **the_juiceman** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:09 am

Benito Juarez wrote:
royals dad wrote:Reason 2: The grass is always greener.

It is basic human nature to want what you cant have. If you say no to people they think your keeping something really good away from them.

The whole Tier 1 is a better way to develop high end players or that it represents some level of personal freedom is in my opinion a load of dung but if you get enough people believing it ... At least the clown from Florida is talking about the USA Hockey system from within it and if you listen he is trying to tell you don't break what you have it is the best thing going.

To say MN hockey has no where to go for top players indicates you have very little knowledge of what is out there. The HS camps are just about done and Elite Leagues are just starting.Plus with the way Minnesota does advance 15s the top 96s are still skating and have not stopped since the hockey season ended. That is 2 scrimmage fests, 2 week long camps, 1 half week camp, and about 20 practices.

You guys are throwing around ADM and HPCs, please note per ADM players under 14 should be in their 2nd or 3rd sport right now, Peewee hockey should be a 7 month a year endeavor, kids should not play up, and parents should focus less on the outcomes (that is why they are eliminating Peewee Nationals). You can see on this board how tourneys like the Subway or Brick turn adults perspectives into mush and they post about their kids team like 9 year olds.

Q, Bo, HD41 - You have all been touting the HPCs now go read the guide http://www.admkids.com/pdf/ADMGuide_2011.pdf

encore! en core!

luckyEPDad · Post by **luckyEPDad** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:26 am

royals dad wrote: Plus with the way Minnesota does advance 15s the top 96s are still skating and have not stopped since the hockey season ended.

Hockey season ends? When does that happen?

MrBoDangles · Post by **MrBoDangles** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:33 am

royals dad wrote:Reason 2: The grass is always greener.

It is basic human nature to want what you cant have. If you say no to people they think your keeping something really good away from them.

The whole Tier 1 is a better way to develop high end players or that it represents some level of personal freedom is in my opinion a load of dung but if you get enough people believing it ... At least the clown from Florida is talking about the USA Hockey system from within it and if you listen he is trying to tell you don't break what you have it is the best thing going.

To say MN hockey has no where to go for top players indicates you have very little knowledge of what is out there. The HS camps are just about done and Elite Leagues are just starting.Plus with the way Minnesota does advance 15s the top 96s are still skating and have not stopped since the hockey season ended. That is 2 scrimmage fests, 2 week long camps, 1 half week camp, and about 20 practices.

You guys are throwing around ADM and HPCs, please note per ADM players under 14 should be in their 2nd or 3rd sport right now, Peewee hockey should be a 7 month a year endeavor, kids should not play up, and parents should focus less on the outcomes (that is why they are eliminating Peewee Nationals). You can see on this board how tourneys like the Subway or Brick turn adults perspectives into mush and they post about their kids team like 9 year olds.

Q, Bo, HD41 - You have all been touting the HPCs now go read the guide http://www.admkids.com/pdf/ADMGuide_2011.pdf

And the kids in B level associations never get a fair shake and fall off the map.

Those 97' Fire kids from St Francis, North Branch, New Prague(mostly small towns)... etc would never get a fair shake in coaching and competition.

"Good For Most, The Rest Are Toast"

A few more options like you said for ALL kids and we might be on the right track.

Quasar · Post by **Quasar** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:08 am

Let me try this one more time. There are three, well I guess four threads currently running that all more or less looking at the same problem. I started the thread about ADM to discuss the effect of the program on Minnesota top players at the bantam and (midget, which we are not allowed to have) level. The Tier 1 thread was started by O-townClown to make the point we should be happy with what we have, and if we really knew what Tier 1 hockey was we would understand where he was coming from, So he is still asking the big question “tell me one advantage of tier 1”? Or something close to that. During all this activity in the last few days, two major announcements were made. First Minnesota Made will have a new team sponsored by Walser Automotive, followed by the announcement that The Wisconsin Fire has disbanded!

I will not attempt to speak for others on this board, I will try to summarize my take on all of this. For me it is about what will happen to Minnesota hockey as the privates grow. The anti trust law suit filed by Minnesota Made has opened the door for a lot of change in Minnesota, and across the country. This will happen. From what I’ve read on this forum it seems that Minnesota Made has no problem filling their choice program. I think that should be proof enough for any one.

Now for the big question .. To me the advantage of Tier 1 hockey is it would allow Minnesota hockey the ability to field teams at the bantam and midget ages where ,In my opinion, Minnesota hockey does not offer a choice . Regardless of how much misdirection, and changing of the subject that takes place in any extended debate, the fact remains that Minnesota hockey controls what level a kid can play at.

As you know, if you have been reading what I have written, my big hope is that Minnesota hockey will let the districts form what I call Tier 1 teams in the hope that the most talented Minnesota kids will stay in the system because they have a choice besides High School and Juniors.

It breaks my heart to see super talented kids making the choice to leave Minnesota to play when the best of everything can be right here. If you really believe that the top 5 or 10 percent of kids should just sit down and shut up. Then you are inviting All the other Bernie’s waiting in the wings the opportunity they have been waiting for.

To me it’s all about choice, and the freedom for each kid to be able to make that choice. So… Tier 1 as I use the definition means nothing more than high level hockey. I use tier 1 because it cuts through all the attempts by Minnesota hockey to define top level play. All the arguments about this elite, that select, and the other offered programs just don’t seem to shine quite as bright when you say Tier 1. Everyone understands what the people on this side of the argument mean when we say Tier 1. So the big advantage as I see it is we can position our argument with the simple definition “Tier 1” and we don’t have to spend all kinds of time on side trips explaining that we actually know what we are talking about.

For Minnesota kids that want to play at the highest level the only choice they have is what a bunch of hockey insiders deem appropriate for them. Private clubs will fill the void now that the United States Federal court has said Minnesota Hockey can no longer have a monopoly in youth hockey in the state of Minnesota.

The Wisconsin Fire has disbanded because they are no longer needed !!!

Time for Minnesota Hockey to make some decisions about the future of youth hockey in Minnesota

luckyEPDad · Post by **luckyEPDad** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:45 am

Quasar wrote: The anti trust law suit filed by Minnesota Made has opened the door for a lot of change in Minnesota, and across the country. This will happen. From what I’ve read on this forum it seems that Minnesota Made has no problem filling their choice program. I think that should be proof enough for any one.

I'm not seeing how the lawsuit has opened any door that was closed before.

Quasar · Post by **Quasar** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:57 am

luckyEPDad wrote:
Quasar wrote: The anti trust law suit filed by Minnesota Made has opened the door for a lot of change in Minnesota, and across the country. This will happen. From what I’ve read on this forum it seems that Minnesota Made has no problem filling their choice program. I think that should be proof enough for any one.
I'm not seeing how the lawsuit has opened any door that was closed before.

Minnesota Made can now make the argument that USA hockey cannot support a monopoly in Minnesota. They will have to recognize Minnesota Made as an equal player in Minnesota, and sanction them to play in USA hockey Tournaments etc.

At least that's the way I see it.

spin-o-rama · Post by **spin-o-rama** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:37 am

Quasar wrote: Minnesota Made can now make the argument that USA hockey cannot support a monopoly in Minnesota. They will have to recognize Minnesota Made as an equal player in Minnesota, and sanction them to play in USA hockey Tournaments etc.

At least that's the way I see it.

You need to check your eye prescription.

All that the lawsuit is doing is changing the old D6 commitment rule of

A player registered with a District 6 member association may not register or play hockey with any other organization, association or team during the winter hockey season, including playoffs.

If a player is found to be registered or playing with another team, the District Director will determine, in their sole discretion, what sanction shall be assessed which may include, without limitation, suspension for the remainder of the District 6 winter hockey season, including playoffs.

** Mites are not included but must follow the MN Hockey rest rules between events.

** This rule does not impact any hockey clinics or outside activities including but not limited to Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, Religious events, birthday parties, etc. This rule strictly applies to league play.

To the new Player Commitment.

The D6 one league rule has been replaced with a player commitment contracts that reads as follows -

COMMITMENT TO TEAM – Players are expected to participate in all team activities (practices, games, tournaments, etc). An allowance for an “excused absence” upon notice that is reasonable under the circumstances may be established by teams and associations. However, unexcused absence is grounds for consequence to a player, as determined by the team or association, up to and including suspension.

Effective 2011 -12 season

MM will not be able to force USAh or MNh to play games against their teams based on their pending lawsuit victory.

luckyEPDad · Post by **luckyEPDad** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:54 am

Quasar wrote:
luckyEPDad wrote:
Quasar wrote: The anti trust law suit filed by Minnesota Made has opened the door for a lot of change in Minnesota, and across the country. This will happen. From what I’ve read on this forum it seems that Minnesota Made has no problem filling their choice program. I think that should be proof enough for any one.
I'm not seeing how the lawsuit has opened any door that was closed before.
Minnesota Made can now make the argument that USA hockey cannot support a monopoly in Minnesota. They will have to recognize Minnesota Made as an equal player in Minnesota, and sanction them to play in USA hockey Tournaments etc.

At least that's the way I see it.

MM could always make that argument. At any time in its existance MM could have approached USA hockey to determine which hoops it need to jump through to play in USA hockey tournaments. The D6 ruling has changed nothing to do with that. MM may be more aware of their choices, but they have no new choices.

Quasar · Post by **Quasar** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:03 pm

spin-o-rama wrote:
Quasar wrote: Minnesota Made can now make the argument that USA hockey cannot support a monopoly in Minnesota. They will have to recognize Minnesota Made as an equal player in Minnesota, and sanction them to play in USA hockey Tournaments etc.

At least that's the way I see it.
You need to check your eye prescription.

All that the lawsuit is doing is changing the old D6 commitment rule of
A player registered with a District 6 member association may not register or play hockey with any other organization, association or team during the winter hockey season, including playoffs.

If a player is found to be registered or playing with another team, the District Director will determine, in their sole discretion, what sanction shall be assessed which may include, without limitation, suspension for the remainder of the District 6 winter hockey season, including playoffs.

** Mites are not included but must follow the MN Hockey rest rules between events.

** This rule does not impact any hockey clinics or outside activities including but not limited to Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, Religious events, birthday parties, etc. This rule strictly applies to league play.
To the new Player Commitment.
The D6 one league rule has been replaced with a player commitment contracts that reads as follows -

COMMITMENT TO TEAM – Players are expected to participate in all team activities (practices, games, tournaments, etc). An allowance for an “excused absence” upon notice that is reasonable under the circumstances may be established by teams and associations. However, unexcused absence is grounds for consequence to a player, as determined by the team or association, up to and including suspension.

Effective 2011 -12 season
MM will not be able to force USAh or MNh to play games against their teams based on their pending lawsuit victory.

My eyes are fine.... Just my opinion.....

spin-o-rama · Post by **spin-o-rama** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:08 pm

Quasar wrote: So… Tier 1 as I use the definition means nothing more than high level hockey.

That's part of your argument's problem. You're trying to redefine things. Tier 1 has no recruiting bounaries, yet you are talking about district Tier 1 teams. The North Branch/ Silver Bay/ Blue Earth kid will be competing against a whole bunch of out of staters willing to billet because of their perception that MN is the best place to play hockey. There is no guarantee that they will make a Tier 1 team. MH would need to do a hybrid program to achieve what you are proposing.

However, it would have to be a very complex program because of the special interest group demands. For instance, the topic has gone from serving the elite underprivileged to serving the A- and B+ underprivileged back to the elite. And the people pounding the table are the same.

A district team for kids from associations without A teams is the best solution that I have heard. It would be comparatively easy to implement under the current structure and fairly easy to eliminate without long term side effects if it doesn't work.

Quasar · Post by **Quasar** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:11 pm

luckyEPDad wrote:
Quasar wrote:
luckyEPDad wrote: I'm not seeing how the lawsuit has opened any door that was closed before.
Minnesota Made can now make the argument that USA hockey cannot support a monopoly in Minnesota. They will have to recognize Minnesota Made as an equal player in Minnesota, and sanction them to play in USA hockey Tournaments etc.

At least that's the way I see it.
MM could always make that argument. At any time in its existance MM could have approached USA hockey to determine which hoops it need to jump through to play in USA hockey tournaments. The D6 ruling has changed nothing to do with that. MM may be more aware of their choices, but they have no new choices.

Before the ruling there was no need for USA hockey to stir up the hornets nest that is Minnesota hockey. Now they are legally bound to honor the no monopoly rule. This rule reaches far beyond Minnesota and district 6... It is, and will be, a federal decision that will effect all youth hockey, in all states...

Pretending that it just impacts Minnesota and district 6 wont change the reality... Just my opinion

spin-o-rama · Post by **spin-o-rama** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:21 pm

luckyEPDad wrote: MM could always make that argument. At any time in its existance MM could have approached USA hockey to determine which hoops it need to jump through to play in USA hockey tournaments. The D6 ruling has changed nothing to do with that. MM may be more aware of their choices, but they have no new choices.

Lucky, MM did try to get an affiliate agreement from MNh. They were turned down. Will MM try again or keep trying to beat MNh as an independant league? Will MNh accept the challenge to compete for players or will they extend an affiliate offer to MM?
You're right, MM has no new choices from their lawsuit. It is just removing that one strong-arm tactic of D6.

HockeyDad41 · Post by **HockeyDad41** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:25 pm

royals dad wrote:Reason 2: The grass is always greener.

It is basic human nature to want what you cant have. If you say no to people they think your keeping something really good away from them.

The whole Tier 1 is a better way to develop high end players or that it represents some level of personal freedom is in my opinion a load of dung but if you get enough people believing it ... At least the clown from Florida is talking about the USA Hockey system from within it and if you listen he is trying to tell you don't break what you have it is the best thing going.

To say MN hockey has no where to go for top players indicates you have very little knowledge of what is out there. The HS camps are just about done and Elite Leagues are just starting.Plus with the way Minnesota does advance 15s the top 96s are still skating and have not stopped since the hockey season ended. That is 2 scrimmage fests, 2 week long camps, 1 half week camp, and about 20 practices.

You guys are throwing around ADM and HPCs, please note per ADM players under 14 should be in their 2nd or 3rd sport right now, Peewee hockey should be a 7 month a year endeavor, kids should not play up, and parents should focus less on the outcomes (that is why they are eliminating Peewee Nationals). You can see on this board how tourneys like the Subway or Brick turn adults perspectives into mush and they post about their kids team like 9 year olds.

Q, Bo, HD41 - You have all been touting the HPCs now go read the guide http://www.admkids.com/pdf/ADMGuide_2011.pdf

I can't recall touting HPC's. I don't even really know what that is. I admit to having zero knowledge about what is available beyond squirts. I have open advocated for choice, but I was thinking more along the lines of being able to change associations if you had a bad one.

I have always felt that summer hockey is a nice other half to association hockey or in my case the Choice league. I don't really think full time summer hockey is the right thing either for the whole state.

royals dad · Post by **royals dad** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:04 pm

HD41 - Sorry thought you chimed in on the ADM thread about High Performance Clubs in MN.

Q- Your contention that the upper 5% to 10% of our youth hockey participants are undeserved is incorrect in my opinion. No need to talk slower I understand your argument I just disagree with it.

As for the choice league filling up because Minnesota Hockey is broken, my contention is that your off on the reason. I think it has more to do with the fact that they are located in the middle of the the states largest associations and that those parents feel more pressure than most can understand to try and give their player the boost they need to make the HS team. I feel sorry for the Edina parent that dreams of their boy playing at the X some day when they see him as 1 of 175 mites, Bernie is selling them the dream of an edge over the rest of them, right or wrong that is how he makes most of his money.

Bo- Still have never heard of a waiver from a B association to an A team being denied. If the skill is there they will be welcome to the new association. I have personally seen it to be true in at least 20 kids.

luckyEPDad · Post by **luckyEPDad** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:51 pm

Quasar wrote: Before the ruling there was no need for USA hockey to stir up the hornets nest that is Minnesota hockey. Now they are legally bound to honor the no monopoly rule. This rule reaches far beyond Minnesota and district 6... It is, and will be, a federal decision that will effect all youth hockey, in all states...

Pretending that it just impacts Minnesota and district 6 wont change the reality... Just my opinion

Yes, a federal court decision can be used as precedence and affect the outcome of future legal decisions, but what does this decision say? That you can't do something that is obviously illegal? I remember reading the rule before knowing about the MM stink and thinking "How draconian can D6 get?". That the rule ever passed is beyond me. Any lawyer I've spoken with about the lawsuit has said that D6 doesn't have a leg to stand on.