Minnesota Hockey proposed new residency rule

Discussion of Minnesota Youth Hockey

Moderators: Mitch Hawker, east hockey, karl(east)

muckandgrind
Posts: 1566
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:48 am

Post by muckandgrind »

Vapor wrote:This is a terrible idea. Conditioningsucks hit it on the head. This does nothing but create all-star Bantam teams. For the 2% of people out there that have wanted this...move if you don't like your association!! If the name on the front of the jersey says "Edina" (just an example), then the families and players that are on that team SHOULD be living in that community.
Funny...kids who live in Plymouth wear "Wayzata" on the front of their jerseys....kids who live in Arden Hills wear "Mounds View" on the front of their jerseys.....kids who live in Wyoming wear "Forest Lake" on the front of their jerseys....kids who live in Grant Township wear "Mahtomedi" on the front of their jerseys....should I go on?

MANY kids wear something on the front of their jerseys that DON"T reflect the "community" in which they live.
play4fun
Posts: 146
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 3:01 pm

Post by play4fun »

Option A: Play where you live. Period. We get your arguments.

Option B: Let kids play where they go to school. Thoughts as follows:

Let kids play with their classmates. More fun for the kids. Remember, the kids?

Don't argue that kids will somehow be freeloaders for the community they would play for. The school attended gets tax dollars per pupil, so there is a financial benefit to that community. Also, rink operating expenses are huge, and having more players sharing in those costs is also a financial benefit. I'm guessing the kids won't play for free. Parents still required to volunteer hours? Do fundraisers? I think so.

Open-enrollment exists now for all kids, including elementary school-aged kids. Not just bantams. (Sounds like a lot of Bantam parents on here...)

If this is all about Bantams -- then strengthen your association so that they won't want to leave. If you're a strong community-based supporter, you have nothing to fear? Or, is it your fear that's driving your reaction?

Consider adding a one year open-enrollment pre-requisite to playing in another association. I understand fears of open-enrolling for one year. Address the issue with a higher hassle factor to deter parents from making hockey only decisions. Let them play in their second year. Would that convince some of you that families open-enroll for reasons other than hockey?

From pebbles:
Look at policies of other sports - baseball and lacrosse, for example. The definition of eligible players is often based on players who reside within the particular school district or are enrolled in a PUBLIC school within the district's boundaries. Private schools shouldn't even enter into this discussion. Families choose to open-enroll in public schools of neighboring districts for a variety of reasons and they often become active participants of the schools' programs.
Well said.

I'm sure to add more based on the likely responses...
pwdad
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:54 am

Post by pwdad »

Please. This is simply what other sports have been doing forever, with no great impact on "community" based programs. MH has long resisted and is finally coming to it's senses.
play4fun
Posts: 146
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 3:01 pm

Post by play4fun »

muckandgrind wrote:
Vapor wrote:This is a terrible idea. Conditioningsucks hit it on the head. This does nothing but create all-star Bantam teams. For the 2% of people out there that have wanted this...move if you don't like your association!! If the name on the front of the jersey says "Edina" (just an example), then the families and players that are on that team SHOULD be living in that community.
Funny...kids who live in Plymouth wear "Wayzata" on the front of their jerseys....kids who live in Arden Hills wear "Mounds View" on the front of their jerseys.....kids who live in Wyoming wear "Forest Lake" on the front of their jerseys....kids who live in Grant Township wear "Mahtomedi" on the front of their jerseys....should I go on?

MANY kids wear something on the front of their jerseys that DON"T reflect the "community" in which they live.

You're right. The jerseys reflect the schools the kids attend. :wink:
Night Train
Posts: 350
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:16 pm

Post by Night Train »

M&G,

Goofy example. There is no Plymouth Youth Hockey Association, or Arden Hills or Wyoming.

Conditioning Sucks has shared some scary scenarios. Thanks for taking the time CS.
glovesareoff
Posts: 23
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:17 am

Post by glovesareoff »

The rumor in our district is that even though a waiver will be "granted" for a child to play for an association outside his community due to school attendance area, It still has to be signed off by the presidents of both assoc (giving & receiving) AND the DD. I have heard that the DD will not sign off nor our assoc president or the neighboring assoc president.
My question is this, because of the language of the proposal "waivers will be granted" do these assoc's & DD have a leg to stand on?
elliott70
Posts: 15766
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 3:47 pm
Location: Bemidji

Post by elliott70 »

nhl'er wrote:Elliott,
Can you please clarify how this will apply to private school enrollment when the private school doesn't have a MH affiliation agrrement?
My other posts may have clarified, but if not....

The private school (nor the public achools) will have an affiliate agreement.
The rule will be simple in its desire (perhaps not in execution)...

The hockey player will have the choice of playing for hte association based on where he lives OR playing for the association where his school is located.
Since I do not know the boundaries of public and private schools (especially middle and elementary schools), I will give you a fictitious example.

Tommy Mite, a 7 year-old) lives in Town A. His parents enroll him in an elementary school in Town B for their convenience (they both teach there).
Tommy can choose to play for the association of Town A or Town B.
Bassed on current language it is a one year choice and Tommy must continue to attend school in Town B to play for their association.

I hope this helps if not let me know.
muckandgrind
Posts: 1566
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:48 am

Post by muckandgrind »

Night Train wrote:M&G,

Goofy example. There is no Plymouth Youth Hockey Association, or Arden Hills or Wyoming.

Conditioning Sucks has shared some scary scenarios. Thanks for taking the time CS.
It's not a "goofy example" at all. What it shows is that the main determination of how association boundaries is based upon feeding a particular high school program. Some of these boundaries cut right through the middle of a neighborhood. It's not about "community" in the neighborhood sense, it's ALL about SCHOOL..and kids should be able to play for the association in which they ATTEND SCHOOL. Is that REALLY so hard to understand??? :shock:

CS scenarios are not scary at all, not to me anyways. Although, I think his scenarios are more than a bit extreme. There wouldn't be NEARLY as much movement as he suggests, some private school players may change when they hit the 8th or 9th grade, but many probably won't as they are happy where there are at...but even if there is...who cares? The choice should be up to them.
play4fun
Posts: 146
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 3:01 pm

Post by play4fun »

Can anyone point out some examples open enrollment creating freshman all-star teams in other sports?

Any examples of brand new powerhouses where kids are open enrolling to the extent that CS portrayed?

There must be quite a few based on the logic on this forum. Name the sport, teams, and where the kids have come from.

Back up your argument with some real life examples. Open enrollment isn't new to other sports...
elliott70
Posts: 15766
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 3:47 pm
Location: Bemidji

Post by elliott70 »

puckboy wrote:Elliot: Do you know if Minnesota Hockey has really looked into the potential impact of the rule as it is written today. It would be interesting to look at real data and see what the impact would be. You could use 3 or 4 K-12 private schools in the metro as your data. Also has anyone talk to the local associations in the metro where the private schools reside- are they for or against it?
To my knowledge, NO.
From my point of view the discernment committee went from 1 mph to 100 mph when they got chastised a bit for not moving forward.

Brad Hewitt from D6 and I worked together in a group last winter and our concensus was that those ideas that has some emblence of reasoning to them could be used but need much more work and guidance.

When we cam back together teh committee chair said well we will give these top voting ideas to tules committee to write the rule. They did that and had two or maybe three teleconferences to get it 'final'.

Both Brad & I were a little stunned in that soemthing that may work with more thought and verbage and restraint and opportunity were sent to production.

And I am trying to get insight from wherever becasue D16 has the least impact from waivers. Our policy was writtern 11 years ago by Jon Bittner (then DD) and reps from each local assn and myself. It works very well for us.
But now I am trying to figure out what this new residencey rule will do - good and bad. How can we drill a hole in the wall to help little Tommy seven year old without having Mister AAA (public or private) drive a tank through the wall.

So continue with feedback.
I leave noon Friday for the big city to has this out Friday night with the DD's to assure we don't screw up come Sunday.
elliott70
Posts: 15766
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 3:47 pm
Location: Bemidji

Post by elliott70 »

muckandgrind wrote:
Vapor wrote:This is a terrible idea. Conditioningsucks hit it on the head. This does nothing but create all-star Bantam teams. For the 2% of people out there that have wanted this...move if you don't like your association!! If the name on the front of the jersey says "Edina" (just an example), then the families and players that are on that team SHOULD be living in that community.
Funny...kids who live in Plymouth wear "Wayzata" on the front of their jerseys....kids who live in Arden Hills wear "Mounds View" on the front of their jerseys.....kids who live in Wyoming wear "Forest Lake" on the front of their jerseys....kids who live in Grant Township wear "Mahtomedi" on the front of their jerseys....should I go on?

MANY kids wear something on the front of their jerseys that DON"T reflect the "community" in which they live.
They play for Bemidji.
Could be more than one Grant around the state I guess.
elliott70
Posts: 15766
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 3:47 pm
Location: Bemidji

Post by elliott70 »

It is difficult to compare hockey with other sports.

Most schools run a program for their students in all sports. Hockey is the odd-man out. Schools involvement begins with sophomores (for the most part).
conditioningsucks
Posts: 184
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 9:24 am

Post by conditioningsucks »

[quote="play4fun"]Can anyone point out some examples open enrollment creating freshman all-star teams in other sports?

Any examples of brand new powerhouses where kids are open enrolling to the extent that CS portrayed?

There must be quite a few based on the logic on this forum. Name the sport, teams, and where the kids have come from.

Back up your argument with some real life examples. Open enrollment isn't new to other sports...[/quote]

Play4fun,

Other sports are different. While communities have baseball or basketball programs, there is also AAU. These are your all star teams made up from kids from wherever. Free agents. Same applies in soccer. Free agency at the highest levels.

What makes hockey different and nearly impossible for high level AAA to break in is that the rinks, rightly so, are monopolized by the local community associations.

You want to form a AAA league? Where are you going to skate? The local associations control the ice and typically are the largest customers.

This is why I see this waiver rule as a boon for private schools - especially those with their own rinks. They now can pressure a local association to cooperate and encourage players in 8th and 9th grades to come play for the school team. Better hours....playing with your school buddies on an elite team.

Think about this too - a private school with a rink could also run peewee and squirt hockey offering daytime hours (during school) as an alternative to phy. ed. Wouldn't happen out of the gate ---- but someone will think of it after they get their bantam program up and running.

Your private schools without rinks are at a heavy disadvantage when it comes to playing the game under these waiver residency rules. Somehow, if they want to compete they have to figure out how to work with the local associations to provide ice at their controlled rinks.

Again, this will happen quickly under the residency requirements under the new policy. Are we ready for this and on board with this?
elliott70
Posts: 15766
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 3:47 pm
Location: Bemidji

Post by elliott70 »

It should be noted that teh current language on the web page is not at all like the original proposed change.

Specifically geting approval from the presidents and the DD and allowing affiliates to put restrictions on the players transferring.

I add this just so you know things may greatly change again before a vote comes forward and the vote could be this weekend.

The 'new' rule is not any different than what already exists other thatn it provides language that would be given a greater benefit of the doubt for a DD to overturn but is not mandatory.
observer
Posts: 2225
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:45 pm

Post by observer »

Do any Youth Association Presidents favor this change?

Do any District Directors favor this?

Why wasn't a version written that shuts the loophole instead of a version blowing it open?
elliott70
Posts: 15766
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 3:47 pm
Location: Bemidji

Post by elliott70 »

I do not have my most recent agenda in front of me and since it is not posted on the web page (again) I am going from memory.

Friday night at 7 District direcotrs will discuss this.
Consider this an inviatin to join us at the Crowne Plaza(??) in North Minneapolis (just off of 694)
play4fun
Posts: 146
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2008 3:01 pm

Post by play4fun »

conditioningsucks wrote:
play4fun wrote:Can anyone point out some examples open enrollment creating freshman all-star teams in other sports?

Any examples of brand new powerhouses where kids are open enrolling to the extent that CS portrayed?

There must be quite a few based on the logic on this forum. Name the sport, teams, and where the kids have come from.

Back up your argument with some real life examples. Open enrollment isn't new to other sports...
Play4fun,

Other sports are different. While communities have baseball or basketball programs, there is also AAU. These are your all star teams made up from kids from wherever. Free agents. Same applies in soccer. Free agency at the highest levels.

What makes hockey different and nearly impossible for high level AAA to break in is that the rinks, rightly so, are monopolized by the local community associations.

You want to form a AAA league? Where are you going to skate? The local associations control the ice and typically are the largest customers.

This is why I see this waiver rule as a boon for private schools - especially those with their own rinks. They now can pressure a local association to cooperate and encourage players in 8th and 9th grades to come play for the school team. Better hours....playing with your school buddies on an elite team.

Think about this too - a private school with a rink could also run peewee and squirt hockey offering daytime hours (during school) as an alternative to phy. ed. Wouldn't happen out of the gate ---- but someone will think of it after they get their bantam program up and running.

Your private schools without rinks are at a heavy disadvantage when it comes to playing the game under these waiver residency rules. Somehow, if they want to compete they have to figure out how to work with the local associations to provide ice at their controlled rinks.

Again, this will happen quickly under the residency requirements under the new policy. Are we ready for this and on board with this?
Nicely stated.

So, the sticky issue is what to do about kids who attend the private schools. A lawsuit would follow if the proposed rule change were applied only to public school enrollment. Am I tracking now?

How is this any different than what already happens at the high-school level?

(Only one more step in the chain to help Ell -- er, me with a rock-solid counter argument.)

Let me be clear. I'm not swayed to the point where I'm changing my position. I'd like to see a change in the current rule, BUT I'm also leary of the proposed rule as it stands now.
elliott70
Posts: 15766
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 3:47 pm
Location: Bemidji

Post by elliott70 »

Sorry it is 8am on Saturday for DD's.
3 pm for rules committee meeting.

Please feel free to attend some or all.
elliott70
Posts: 15766
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 3:47 pm
Location: Bemidji

Post by elliott70 »

observer wrote:Do any Youth Association Presidents favor this change?

Do any District Directors favor this?

Why wasn't a version written that shuts the loophole instead of a version blowing it open?
Speaking for D16 - no, assn do not support this, as we play where you are (for the most part) WITH what you have. To teh assn it looks like a way for the metro to strengthen a program to achieve Trophy hunting.

DD's are all over the place for various reasons.
We will chat on Saturday morning. Initially we were on the same page but that was an entirely different concept.
conditioningsucks
Posts: 184
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 9:24 am

Post by conditioningsucks »

play4fun,

You are tracking now ---- grasshopper.

I fully agree. If the residency rule was strictly to allow public school enrollees to play hockey where they are enrolled it would make sense. But allowing them is a slippery slope.

A court isn't going to let you discriminate between public and private schools. If you are going to allow a kid to waive into an association because they go to a public (justifying with they just want to play with their school buddies), it makes for a pretty difficult argument to exclude waiving into an association to play for your private school within the same school district boundaries. Both kids just 'want to play with their friends' but you are going to give one options while you won't let the other have options.
elliott70
Posts: 15766
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 3:47 pm
Location: Bemidji

Post by elliott70 »

play4fun wrote:
conditioningsucks wrote:
play4fun wrote:Can anyone point out some examples open enrollment creating freshman all-star teams in other sports?

Any examples of brand new powerhouses where kids are open enrolling to the extent that CS portrayed?

There must be quite a few based on the logic on this forum. Name the sport, teams, and where the kids have come from.

Back up your argument with some real life examples. Open enrollment isn't new to other sports...
Play4fun,

Other sports are different. While communities have baseball or basketball programs, there is also AAU. These are your all star teams made up from kids from wherever. Free agents. Same applies in soccer. Free agency at the highest levels.

What makes hockey different and nearly impossible for high level AAA to break in is that the rinks, rightly so, are monopolized by the local community associations.

You want to form a AAA league? Where are you going to skate? The local associations control the ice and typically are the largest customers.

This is why I see this waiver rule as a boon for private schools - especially those with their own rinks. They now can pressure a local association to cooperate and encourage players in 8th and 9th grades to come play for the school team. Better hours....playing with your school buddies on an elite team.

Think about this too - a private school with a rink could also run peewee and squirt hockey offering daytime hours (during school) as an alternative to phy. ed. Wouldn't happen out of the gate ---- but someone will think of it after they get their bantam program up and running.

Your private schools without rinks are at a heavy disadvantage when it comes to playing the game under these waiver residency rules. Somehow, if they want to compete they have to figure out how to work with the local associations to provide ice at their controlled rinks.

Again, this will happen quickly under the residency requirements under the new policy. Are we ready for this and on board with this?
Nicely stated.

So, the sticky issue is what to do about kids who attend the private schools. A lawsuit would follow if the proposed rule change were applied only to public school enrollment. Am I tracking now?
How is this any different than what already happens at the high-school level?

(Only one more step in the chain to help Ell -- er, me with a rock-solid counter argument.)

Let me be clear. I'm not swayed to the point where I'm changing my position. I'd like to see a change in the current rule, BUT I'm also leary of the proposed rule as it stands now.
No, the sticky part does not have to with public or private, the rule simply allows a player to choose ASSN A or ASSN B. A being the assn where his house is, B being the assn where his school is.
Private School (nor public school) will be allowed an affiliate agreement.
Chuck Norris Fan
Posts: 304
Joined: Sun Nov 19, 2006 11:01 pm
Location: North Metro
Contact:

Post by Chuck Norris Fan »

Night Train wrote:
you want kids to play in a community where they didn't support community development with their families tax dollars because they live in a different community. But, allow them to take a spot of a community resident, that pays tax dollars into the community fund and arena.
Please, what planet are you on? Since when do my or any of your taxes (except Roseau) pay for hockey. The Youth hockey programs across the state are funded from, Sign up fees, pull tabs, and fundraisers. The rinks are paid for by the $175 an hour rental fees.... FYI it doesn't cost that much to run a rink for an hour!!!
Last edited by Chuck Norris Fan on Thu Apr 23, 2009 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
elliott70
Posts: 15766
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 3:47 pm
Location: Bemidji

Post by elliott70 »

Chuck Norris Fan wrote:
Night Train wrote:
you want kids to play in a community where they didn't support community development with their families tax dollars because they live in a different community. But, allow them to take a spot of a community resident, that pays tax dollars into the community fund and arena.
Please, what planet are you on? Since when do my or any of your taxes (except Roseau) pay for hockey. The Youth hockey programs across the state are funded from, Sign up fees, pull tabs, and fundraisers. The rinks are paid for by the $175 an hour rental fees.... FYI it doesn't cost that much to run a rink for an hour!!!


It depends on who is doing the allocation of expenses.
I had a city council person tell me it costs dang near $500 per hour.
Chuck Norris Fan
Posts: 304
Joined: Sun Nov 19, 2006 11:01 pm
Location: North Metro
Contact:

Post by Chuck Norris Fan »

elliott70 wrote:
Chuck Norris Fan wrote:
Night Train wrote:
you want kids to play in a community where they didn't support community development with their families tax dollars because they live in a different community. But, allow them to take a spot of a community resident, that pays tax dollars into the community fund and arena.
Please, what planet are you on? Since when do my or any of your taxes (except Roseau) pay for hockey. The Youth hockey programs across the state are funded from, Sign up fees, pull tabs, and fundraisers. The rinks are paid for by the $175 an hour rental fees.... FYI it doesn't cost that much to run a rink for an hour!!!


It depends on who is doing the allocation of expenses.
I had a city council person tell me it costs dang near $500 per hour.
If that were the case rinks would be closing like mad across the state... not opening up new ones.
elliott70
Posts: 15766
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2004 3:47 pm
Location: Bemidji

Post by elliott70 »

Just wanted to thank everyone for posting opinions...

As stated I will read them through about NOON tomorrow (Friday 4/24).
Post Reply