What do you think of having 4 refs on ice?

winter15 · Post by **winter15** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 4:10 pm

Theres to many of them, they get in the way. Ive seen a hill murray player and century player skate into refs SO FAR out of the 4 games ive watched this tourney.

puckeyone · Post by **puckeyone** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 4:38 pm

4 refs what a JOKE, if the old farts cant keep up with the game get them off the ice,, Ive notice it always the refs that stick up for this , they are like a cult ITS ALL ABOUT THEM, not the game , seen today 2 refs on the goal line, wow thats coverage, 2 in the same spot, cant the guy with the red band make the call so we can get the the so called linesman off the ice , then thye ran into each other to top it off, ,, lets try this ....

5 man sytsem--- put one on each line, no skates then they wont run into each other, ,,
Oh sorry the NHL will try that next year

HockeyMN1 · Post by **HockeyMN1** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 5:01 pm

Did you see that ref take out the HM d-man? That was funny... It was a little too crowded out there, but the teams played a clean game for the most part.

Hoops · Post by **Hoops** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:22 am

puckeyone wrote:4 refs what a JOKE, if the old farts cant keep up with the game get them off the ice,, Ive notice it always the refs that stick up for this , they are like a cult ITS ALL ABOUT THEM, not the game , seen today 2 refs on the goal line, wow thats coverage, 2 in the same spot, cant the guy with the red band make the call so we can get the the so called linesman off the ice , then thye ran into each other to top it off, ,, lets try this ....

5 man sytsem--- put one on each line, no skates then they wont run into each other, ,,
Oh sorry the NHL will try that next year

I'm with you and then you still have a ref blowing the whistle when HE can't see the puck but the 3 others and 12,000 fans can...

goldy313 · Post by **goldy313** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:29 am

In a 2-2 hockey game late in the third Eden Prairie is coming down 3 on 2 and the ref takes out a Hill defenseman. In the Century/Blaine game a Century player gets taken out in mid ice by another ref.

There are four refs and they completely miss EP having 6 guys on the ice for EP's first goal, the kid coming off the bench played the puck before the kid he was replacing crossed the far blueline.

I don't know how it showed up on TV but it seemed the extra ref got in the way a lot at the arena, the kids aren't used to their being 4, the refs aren't used to working with four, and in at leas a couple of games the 2nd referee called a trip or similar call from the far blueline while the other ref was right on top of the play.

This is a bad time to try out an experiment, it would have been better in the Schwans cup. At least they didn't figure in the outcome of any game but that EP/Hill game was a very close miss.

GopherPuckPlayer · Post by **GopherPuckPlayer** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:14 am

goldy313 wrote:In a 2-2 hockey game late in the third Eden Prairie is coming down 3 on 2 and the ref takes out a Hill defenseman. In the Century/Blaine game a Century player gets taken out in mid ice by another ref.

There are four refs and they completely miss EP having 6 guys on the ice for EP's first goal, the kid coming off the bench played the puck before the kid he was replacing crossed the far blueline.

I don't know how it showed up on TV but it seemed the extra ref got in the way a lot at the arena, the kids aren't used to their being 4, the refs aren't used to working with four, and in at leas a couple of games the 2nd referee called a trip or similar call from the far blueline while the other ref was right on top of the play.

This is a bad time to try out an experiment, it would have been better in the Schwans cup. At least they didn't figure in the outcome of any game but that EP/Hill game was a very close miss.

Ya MN. Trying something new during the tourney, how stupid. I agree they should have been trying this out during the regular season. And I feel bad if they had the extra guy and could not see that extra player. Though you know sometimes they let it go. I still don't see the reasoning of the 4th reff.

ref101 · Post by **ref101** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 8:03 am

Hoops wrote:
puckeyone wrote:4 refs what a JOKE, if the old farts cant keep up with the game get them off the ice,, Ive notice it always the refs that stick up for this , they are like a cult ITS ALL ABOUT THEM, not the game , seen today 2 refs on the goal line, wow thats coverage, 2 in the same spot, cant the guy with the red band make the call so we can get the the so called linesman off the ice , then thye ran into each other to top it off, ,, lets try this ....

5 man sytsem--- put one on each line, no skates then they wont run into each other, ,,
Oh sorry the NHL will try that next year
I'm with you and then you still have a ref blowing the whistle when HE can't see the puck but the 3 others and 12,000 fans can...

It's going to happen... watch a Wild game once (3 others and 18000 fans), and the referee is collecting 6 figures! Not going to fix this with one referee in the zone.

ref101 · Post by **ref101** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 8:07 am

goldy313 wrote:In a 2-2 hockey game late in the third Eden Prairie is coming down 3 on 2 and the ref takes out a Hill defenseman. In the Century/Blaine game a Century player gets taken out in mid ice by another ref.

There are four refs and they completely miss EP having 6 guys on the ice for EP's first goal, the kid coming off the bench played the puck before the kid he was replacing crossed the far blueline.

I don't know how it showed up on TV but it seemed the extra ref got in the way a lot at the arena, the kids aren't used to their being 4, the refs aren't used to working with four, and in at leas a couple of games the 2nd referee called a trip or similar call from the far blueline while the other ref was right on top of the play.

This is a bad time to try out an experiment, it would have been better in the Schwans cup. At least they didn't figure in the outcome of any game but that EP/Hill game was a very close miss.

I like the fact that's it's always the "extra ref" that's in the way...

bigeater3 · Post by **bigeater3** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 8:34 am

I like the face that's it's always the "extra ref" that's in the way...

it sure seemed to be in both of last nights games

adamp1914 · Post by **adamp1914** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 8:41 am

GopherPuckPlayer wrote:To many quick whistle every where on the ice.

I completely agree. Quick whistles. Over analyzing the game, too many calls.

As for the transitioning. I counted at least 8 times that the ref got in the way of play physically.

ref101 · Post by **ref101** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 9:11 am

adamp1914 wrote:
GopherPuckPlayer wrote:To many quick whistle every where on the ice.
I completely agree. Quick whistles. Over analyzing the game, too many calls.

As for the transitioning. I counted at least 8 times that the ref got in the way of play physically.

Was it the extra one?????

adamp1914 · Post by **adamp1914** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 9:25 am

ref101 wrote:
adamp1914 wrote:
GopherPuckPlayer wrote:To many quick whistle every where on the ice.
I completely agree. Quick whistles. Over analyzing the game, too many calls.

As for the transitioning. I counted at least 8 times that the ref got in the way of play physically.
Was it the extra one?????

About half the time it was. Other half of the times it was the linesman.

RLStars · Post by **RLStars** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:32 am

Maybe you have to be at the arena to see how its working, but I can't see where its as big of a deal as some try to make it.

One referee should be in the offensive zone by the goal line (same as the usual 2-1 system). One linesman is camped out at the offensive zone blue line (same as the usual 2-1 ssystem). The second linesman is on the opposite side of the rink around the red line (same as a 1-2 system in bantams). The back official is free to roam around the nuetral zone. Once play moves out of the offensive zone the back referee can now stay ahead of the play instead of stopping at the blue line and waiting for the linesman to get into position before he moves into the offensive zone.

Whats the problem?

From a players perspective, it may take a little to get used to when you see a referee in the zone before anyone else or the puck.

puckeyone · Post by **puckeyone** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:54 pm

Heres the problem, just watch it, puck gets dumped into the zone, ref is already there now the linesmen gets caught in the zone because he was making sure of the icing, his partner now covers the blue line for him and the back official is standing at center ice,, What happens when it is quick transtion

CHAOS , The offcial in center ice has to get the hell out of the way , and the linesman at the blue has to leave the zone to cover his blue line, but now the puck is dumped back into the origanal zone it came from

I ask with four guys on the rink { and there here because supposibly they cant skate fast enouhg with 3 so they use 4} sooner than later they are going to get in the way

ref101 · Post by **ref101** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:08 pm

adamp1914 wrote:
ref101 wrote:
adamp1914 wrote: I completely agree. Quick whistles. Over analyzing the game, too many calls.

As for the transitioning. I counted at least 8 times that the ref got in the way of play physically.
Was it the extra one?????
About half the time it was. Other half of the times it was the linesman.

You don't even know which official is the extra one??? ref or lines???

goldy313 · Post by **goldy313** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:46 pm

Well, is it the extra one? I can count on one hand how may times I've seen a ref take out a player in the regular season, it's been happening pretty regularly here. Also how many times in a 3 man system are 2 refs trapped in the same corner? Happened a couple of times yesterday, once on an Edina powerplay where the extra ref did a real nice job of taking away the passing lane behind the net. He just sttod there like an old fashioned goal judge. I 'm not an Edina fan, but geez....you can't say it's the extra one but you can say they're getting in the way far more often than they used too.

Like I said the kids aren't used to it and the refs aren't used to it, a real bad time to try an experiment.

ref101 · Post by **ref101** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 2:56 pm

goldy313 wrote:Well, is it the extra one? I can count on one hand how may times I've seen a ref take out a player in the regular season, it's been happening pretty regularly here. Also how many times in a 3 man system are 2 refs trapped in the same corner? Happened a couple of times yesterday, once on an Edina powerplay where the extra ref did a real nice job of taking away the passing lane behind the net. He just sttod there like an old fashioned goal judge. I 'm not an Edina fan, but geez....you can't say it's the extra one but you can say they're getting in the way far more often than they used too.

Like I said the kids aren't used to it and the refs aren't used to it, a real bad time to try an experiment.

Also how many times in a 3 man system are 2 refs trapped in the same corner?

Can't be 2 "refs" in the zone. Whether it's 3 or 4 person system, the only time there will be a second official in the zone (ie; corner) will be during a faceoff. The linesman will be conducting the faceoff, and there's a possibility he could become trapped for a small period of time.

Big Picture - the 4-person system is working just fine. I don't see the issues. very minimal impact to the game(s) being played.

whockeyguy · Post by **whockeyguy** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 12:34 pm

Well then ref101 I know why you ref ,your as blind as the guys on the rink, If you cant see this then you must be blind,
All your comments are in the technical aspect. There are 4 guys with the stripes call them whatever you want , but when two of them are in the same corner that is just BAD. when they get in the way of the game it is just BAD,
If three guys cant do this this then and all of you say you need 4 then all of you should do the following------ RETIRE,, your giving the good refs a bad name,
There is NO sound reason for 4 guys with stripe on the ice for this level,

OOOPPPPPs i have found two reasons,,
1). Ego
2). Show me the money

ref101 · Post by **ref101** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:03 pm

whockeyguy wrote:Well then ref101 I know why you ref ,your as blind as the guys on the rink, If you cant see this then you must be blind,
All your comments are in the technical aspect. There are 4 guys with the stripes call them whatever you want , but when two of them are in the same corner that is just BAD. when they get in the way of the game it is just BAD,
If three guys cant do this this then and all of you say you need 4 then all of you should do the following------ RETIRE,, your giving the good refs a bad name,
There is NO sound reason for 4 guys with stripe on the ice for this level,

OOOPPPPPs i have found two reasons,,
1). Ego
2). Show me the money

Not much to respond to here, I see what I'm dealing with.... NHL-4, NCAA-4, MSHSL State Tourn-4. I don't assign them, but I support 'em. It's a little leading edge, as was video replay. There's some political play here with other states and the NFHS. End result, I thought they did a good job with very little prep. I'd say, put on the stripes and give it a try, but I think the sport might be a little out of your league.

theref · Post by **theref** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:04 pm

Ref101.............don't bite. Trust me. Those that don't work higher level hockey don't have a clue, so don't even start with them. They just don't get it even if you try to explain.

animal1019 · Post by **animal1019** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:45 pm

I am a ref and I agree it was a very stupid idea to experiment with 4 officials during state tournament. The extra official in the 4man is a linesman. Totally not needed. Officials were in the way of players and play way too much in this tournament. This is due to the officials do not have a clue on the flow of hockey play. Everytime I seen the deep ref in the way is because he thought it was cool to switch sides behind the net, except they did not have a clue where play was going. I also agree that this ploy of using 4man is due to the age and skating ability of some officials. It is all politics on who gets games at state tourny. I did not apply to do games at state, so no this is not sour grapes. I am one of the few officials who believes the game comes first. In a post earlier regarding the check from behind in the warroad game, that was a horrible call. The player hit the guy just in front of shoulder and the player getting hit hit the boards with his back. Replay was clear as day. If he was hit behind he would go head first too the biards not back to the voards. The ref that made call was from my section. Very embarrasing call for our group of officials. Also there was a thread regarding the players need to get used to the officials out there. That is a bunch of crap and part of the problem with most officials. If the officials are doing there job correctly the players should not be aware of you until you make a call. I also saw a lot of 2 on 1s destroyed by the linesmen. The linesmen skates past the blue line to make an offside call. The 2 on 1 is coming on his side and what do you think the defensemen do? They use the linesman as another defender for 2 on 1. Lo and behold the player with puck runs into linesman or he is forced to put the puck deep. Again all becuase they do not understand the flow of hockey. I guess I had more comments than I thought. As far as how many officials that should be on the ice, I have to go with 2man. with 2man, 3,man and 4man they all have only 2 people to call penalties. The calls do not get any better in any of the systems. some just require some skating skills.

goldfish01153 · Post by **goldfish01153** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 6:55 pm

not that i care cause i wanted moorhead to win anyways but they're second goal vs. cdh was clearly offsides if anyone has a video of that...

3 refs do great but 4 just get in the way.. in the edina game the ref knocked down a moorhead defenseman and gave edina a 2-1 that they almost scored on and they would have if edina could finish instead of chokin all the time... and almost every game i watched one of the refs got in the way atleast once

ref101 i hope you ref squirts cause anything higher up than that would be fast for you to comprehend

whockeyguy · Post by **whockeyguy** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 7:02 pm

to the ref and ref101, I have had the stripes on for 30 years, I knew when my time was up its about time when the others do also, but now we have gone from 2 to 3 and now 4 refs on the ice, and they still cant see to many men on the ice or all the mouth guards sticking out, there is NO sound reason for 4 guys with stripes on the ice, you say cutting edge , well all the High Schools are dealing with budget cuts and i say go back to 2 stripes on the ice and save the money Its not needed in the officials pocket book

ref101 · Post by **ref101** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:19 pm

animal1019 wrote:I am a ref and I agree it was a very stupid idea to experiment with 4 officials during state tournament. The extra official in the 4man is a linesman. Totally not needed. Officials were in the way of players and play way too much in this tournament. This is due to the officials do not have a clue on the flow of hockey play. Everytime I seen the deep ref in the way is because he thought it was cool to switch sides behind the net, except they did not have a clue where play was going. I also agree that this ploy of using 4man is due to the age and skating ability of some officials. It is all politics on who gets games at state tourny. I did not apply to do games at state, so no this is not sour grapes. I am one of the few officials who believes the game comes first. In a post earlier regarding the check from behind in the warroad game, that was a horrible call. The player hit the guy just in front of shoulder and the player getting hit hit the boards with his back. Replay was clear as day. If he was hit behind he would go head first too the biards not back to the voards. The ref that made call was from my section. Very embarrasing call for our group of officials. Also there was a thread regarding the players need to get used to the officials out there. That is a bunch of crap and part of the problem with most officials. If the officials are doing there job correctly the players should not be aware of you until you make a call. I also saw a lot of 2 on 1s destroyed by the linesmen. The linesmen skates past the blue line to make an offside call. The 2 on 1 is coming on his side and what do you think the defensemen do? They use the linesman as another defender for 2 on 1. Lo and behold the player with puck runs into linesman or he is forced to put the puck deep. Again all becuase they do not understand the flow of hockey. I guess I had more comments than I thought. As far as how many officials that should be on the ice, I have to go with 2man. with 2man, 3,man and 4man they all have only 2 people to call penalties. The calls do not get any better in any of the systems. some just require some skating skills.

Your an official...?

ref101 · Post by **ref101** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:20 pm

goldfish01153 wrote:not that i care cause i wanted moorhead to win anyways but they're second goal vs. cdh was clearly offsides if anyone has a video of that...

3 refs do great but 4 just get in the way.. in the edina game the ref knocked down a moorhead defenseman and gave edina a 2-1 that they almost scored on and they would have if edina could finish instead of chokin all the time... and almost every game i watched one of the refs got in the way atleast once

ref101 i hope you ref squirts cause anything higher up than that would be fast for you to comprehend

HS and NCAA only...