Who cares....

[nmnhockeydad]

I think this comment that I heard from another hockey parent put it into perspective for me..."We adults can really screw up a kids game" Now I am not saying that all parents are like this but we all know those that do.

[elliott70]

As I said it is a tightrope. It is easy to fall off one side or the other.
And there is no manual.

But there is a net.

Like Dmom said, most kids don't remember who won or lost.
State champs or similar experience become more memorable, but yet usually not the thing they remember.

But good luck being a parent, but like I tell our youth baseball coaches every year...

You are creating memories for the kids, their parents, and yourself.
Try and make them happy memories.

Good luck and remember we all are on the same side, the kids.
(At least I hope everyone is.)

[elliott70]

I think this comment that I heard from another hockey parent put it into perspective for me..."We adults can really screw up a kids game" Now I am not saying that all parents are like this but we all know those that do.

And sometimes it is us.

[muckandgrind]

As I said it is a tightrope. It is easy to fall off one side or the other.
And there is no manual.

But there is a net.

Like Dmom said, most kids don't remember who won or lost.
State champs or similar experience become more memorable, but yet usually not the thing they remember.

But good luck being a parent, but like I tell our youth baseball coaches every year...

You are creating memories for the kids, their parents, and yourself.
Try and make them happy memories.

Good luck and remember we all are on the same side, the kids.
(At least I hope everyone is.)

I think they do. At least I remember the tournaments we won as a young player 35 years later. Don't sell the kids short.....In fact, those trophies are still sitting in my father's den where he proudly keeps them from ever gathering dust. There are alot of memories in those cheap pieces of metal and plastic. I also remember tournaments where we didn't win...there were probably more of those, but I still remember just about every single one.

Same with my boys. I hear them talking to their friends about tournaments in years past. You don't think they remember how they did? Of course they do. They especially remember the victories, but they remember games where they got beat badly in also.

Of course, kids should be able to let loose and have fun at the tournaments. Hit the pool, eat pizza, play knee hockey, and all that jazz. But the parents (and coaches) still need to be parents (and coaches) and set the boundaries and limits...just like at home (and at the rink). Letting the kids have fun doesn't have to mean letting them stay up all hours of the night and drinking gallons of pop the night before a game.

[WayOutWest]

most kids don't remember who won or lost.

I think they do. At least I remember the tournaments we won as a young player 35 years later. Don't sell the kids short.....In fact, those trophies are still sitting in my father's den where he proudly keeps them from ever gathering dust. There are alot of memories in those cheap pieces of metal and plastic. I also remember tournaments where we didn't win...there were probably more of those, but I still remember just about every single one.

Same with my boys. I hear them talking to their friends about tournaments in years past. You don't think they remember how they did? Of course they do. They especially remember the victories, but they remember games where they got beat badly in also.

Perhaps it is you (and your father?) who are "selling the kids short" by focusing a bit too much on those "trophies still sitting in your father's den, where he proudly keeps them from ever gathering dust."

It might appear that you, and your father, may be attributing too much to the achievement of such things.

I know a lot of very talented kids, who constantly get assigned to bad sports teams, or who just happen to live in an area that has bad sports programs in general. There isn't much opportunity to win trophies, for these kids. Would your father think less of you if he didn't have anything to keep dust off of? I sure hope not. Would your childhood memories be predominantly disappointing? Of course not.

"Cheap pieces of metal and plastic" may give your father something to do, on boring afternoons, but they hardly define a child and the quality of his memories. And for your sake, I hope they have little to do with the definition of your relationship with your father.

[elliott70]

As I said it is a tightrope. It is easy to fall off one side or the other.
And there is no manual.

But there is a net.

Like Dmom said, most kids don't remember who won or lost.
State champs or similar experience become more memorable, but yet usually not the thing they remember.

But good luck being a parent, but like I tell our youth baseball coaches every year...

You are creating memories for the kids, their parents, and yourself.
Try and make them happy memories.

Good luck and remember we all are on the same side, the kids.
(At least I hope everyone is.)

I think they do. At least I remember the tournaments we won as a young player 35 years later. Don't sell the kids short.....In fact, those trophies are still sitting in my father's den where he proudly keeps them from ever gathering dust. There are alot of memories in those cheap pieces of metal and plastic. I also remember tournaments where we didn't win...there were probably more of those, but I still remember just about every single one.

Same with my boys. I hear them talking to their friends about tournaments in years past. You don't think they remember how they did? Of course they do. They especially remember the victories, but they remember games where they got beat badly in also.

Of course, kids should be able to let loose and have fun at the tournaments. Hit the pool, eat pizza, play knee hockey, and all that jazz. But the parents (and coaches) still need to be parents (and coaches) and set the boundaries and limits...just like at home (and at the rink). Letting the kids have fun doesn't have to mean letting them stay up all hours of the night and drinking gallons of pop the night before a game.

35 years ago,
reminds me of a joke...but naother time, another place,

but good for you, memories are precious, especially good ones.

[muckandgrind]

most kids don't remember who won or lost.

I think they do. At least I remember the tournaments we won as a young player 35 years later. Don't sell the kids short.....In fact, those trophies are still sitting in my father's den where he proudly keeps them from ever gathering dust. There are alot of memories in those cheap pieces of metal and plastic. I also remember tournaments where we didn't win...there were probably more of those, but I still remember just about every single one.

Same with my boys. I hear them talking to their friends about tournaments in years past. You don't think they remember how they did? Of course they do. They especially remember the victories, but they remember games where they got beat badly in also.

Perhaps it is you (and your father?) who are "selling the kids short" by focusing a bit too much on those "trophies still sitting in your father's den, where he proudly keeps them from ever gathering dust."

It might appear that you, and your father, may be attributing too much to the achievement of such things.

I know a lot of very talented kids, who constantly get assigned to bad sports teams, or who just happen to live in an area that has bad sports programs in general. There isn't much opportunity to win trophies, for these kids. Would your father think less of you if he didn't have anything to keep dust off of? I sure hope not. Would your childhood memories be predominantly disappointing? Of course not.

"Cheap pieces of metal and plastic" may give your father something to do, on boring afternoons, but they hardly define a child and the quality of his memories. And for your sake, I hope they have little to do with the definition of your relationship with your father.

Wow....you are reading a little too much into what I posted. First, didn't I mention that I was involved on the losing end more often than the winning end in those tournaments? I think I did. Secondly, what I mean to say, was that those trophies DO represent an achievement (whether you lagree or not) that me and my teammates experienced together. There is absolutely nothing wrong with celebrating achievement. Nobody should be made to feel ashamed about winning. Thirdly, I have a very good relationship with my father, thank you very much, and hockey is but a mere footnote on our overall relationship. In addition to those trophies in his den, are my HS and College Diplomas, Marine Corps graduation picture and other memoriabilia. Again, is it wrong for him to proudly display his kids achievements? I don't think so.

You say that I might be "focusing too much on achievement". Maybe I am, and what's wrong with that? I want my kids to achieve in what ever they do: school, sports, career, family, etc. Is that so wrong? I'm their biggest fan and always will be. Will they achieve in every task they undertake? Of course not...but that doesn't mean we shouldn't ENCOURAGE them to achieve.

Maybe that's what wrong with America today...we can't focus on achievement for fear of damaging self-esteem. Nobody should celebrate success, because that will make those who don't succeed feel bad. We are seeing this mindset creep into our schools, sports, workplace, and other areas of society. Very frightening.

[WayOutWest]

Wow....you are reading a little too much into what I posted. First, didn't I mention that I was involved on the losing end more often than the winning end in those tournaments? I think I did. Secondly, what I mean to say, was that those trophies DO represent an achievement (whether you lagree or not) that me and my teammates experienced together. There is absolutely nothing wrong with celebrating achievement. Nobody should be made to feel ashamed about winning. Thirdly, I have a very good relationship with my father, thank you very much, and hockey is but a mere footnote on our overall relationship. In addition to those trophies in his den, are my HS and College Diplomas, Marine Corps graduation picture and other memoriabilia. Again, is it wrong for him to proudly display his kids achievements? I don't think so.

You say that I might be "focusing too much on achievement". Maybe I am, and what's wrong with that? I want my kids to achieve in what ever they do: school, sports, career, family, etc. Is that so wrong? I'm their biggest fan and always will be. Will they achieve in every task they undertake? Of course not...but that doesn't mean we shouldn't ENCOURAGE them to achieve.

I hear ya. As Elliot pointed out, this is a bit of a tightrope walk.
Absolutely, you should absolutely encourage your kids to achieve, but to what extent? Some parents, particularly hockey parents, are a bit off the deep end. And as I alluded to, even if your kid is achieving, there are frequently circumstances which may interfere with him/her succeeding on a team level. (i.e. poor team, poor program, etc.)
Youth sports achievements are frequently given WAY too much emphasis, by parents. In the grand scheme of things, how much is it really going to matter if your kid was on a team that won a Squirt tournament?
How old are you now, Muck? If you are spending time, many years after the fact, dusting off hardware from such "achievements", the time to move on might be far off in your rear-view mirror.

[guilford]

I have to agree with Itsmorefun on this one. When we're at an out-of-town tournament that is costing our family A LOT of money, the kids better go to bed at a decent time, use their downtime wisely, and skate their butts off. They want to play this sport, it's very expensive, and their part of the bargain is to work hard. There is always house league for those that don't want to work hard. We weren't a hockey family until our kid insisted on playing. He, therefore, has the rresponsibility to put his best foot forward, if not just for us, for the other families who are also paying A LOT of money.

A nine or ten year old kid bargained for this.

You pay for a motel with a pool, bring a little kid there with his friends and you can't find 30 minutes for the boys to splash in the pool.

If your kid is playing squirt hockey its becasue he has talent, has sworked hard, has got a little lucky, and has matured a little before some of his friends.

Don't rob your kid of being a kid because you bargained for traveling hockey.
No squirt player has been given a D1 scholarship. Many MANY squirt players don't play college or varsity HS hockey.

As a parent you need to remember he is not on the fast track. NOt even a track, just playing a game he likes.

I have been asked a hundred if not a thousand times, what time in bed, can we be in the pool, by parents looking to me for answers as what is the best thing to do to win.

He (sometimes she) has prents, figure it out. You should know your kid.
I tell the players, do the right thing, don't wear yourself out, come ready to do your best to help the team win.
Being in the pool for 3 hours prior to the game is wrong, being in the pool for 20 minutes, getting something good to eat, getting a bit of down time and come with your game face on (10 year olds can have it on and off pretty quick) when they don't then the COACH (not the parent) need to get them focused. At the rinki field or whatever. If htat does not happen then the parents should not throw 'YOUR END OF THE BARGAIN' in their face. You may be footing the bill, but it is their game, their time.


And I am not ridiculing, just trying to keep a perspective that puts the kid first.

Take it from a really old guy, that has gone around the block in many different vehicles.

Relax, Elliot. You read way more into what I wrote than what is actually there. I didn't say anything about winning. I didn't mention anything about talent, for that matter. "Your end of the bargain" relates to not screwing around at the hotel until the wee hours of the morning, then barely being able to stand up the next day. Believe me, I've seen that enough to know that it happens at all levels. And their parents are right there letting it happen because they could care less how the team does and sometimes too drunk to notice. The sensible parents who made their kids go to bed at a reasonable time and properly supervised (while still letting the kids have FUN) have to watch those bozos fall all over themselves. That's what I'm talking about when I say for the amount we're paying, all the kids owe it to the team to conduct themselves in a reasonable manner. Kids can have fun without being juvenile delinquents.

[WayOutWest]

Maybe that's what wrong with America today...we can't focus on achievement for fear of damaging self-esteem. Nobody should celebrate success, because that will make those who don't succeed feel bad. We are seeing this mindset creep into our schools, sports, workplace, and other areas of society. Very frightening.

Who said anything like THAT?
All anyone is really saying is "put things in perspective."

[itsmorefun]

Ask some basketball parents or figure skating parents or soccer parents how whacked some of those parents can get... you'll hear the same thing as you hear about hockey.

Muckandgrind... I agree with you. Continue to teach your kids to work hard and find success. Let the others keep telling themselves that none of it matters. If it really didn't matter to them, then they wouldn't be on this forum trying to stay in touch with the game.

Hockey is fun. It's really fun when I see my son work hard and get better every year. Now that's Fun! We've created a lot of great memories from it and made a lot of great friends because of it. We'll keep enjoying it until it's over.

[muckandgrind]

Wow....you are reading a little too much into what I posted. First, didn't I mention that I was involved on the losing end more often than the winning end in those tournaments? I think I did. Secondly, what I mean to say, was that those trophies DO represent an achievement (whether you lagree or not) that me and my teammates experienced together. There is absolutely nothing wrong with celebrating achievement. Nobody should be made to feel ashamed about winning. Thirdly, I have a very good relationship with my father, thank you very much, and hockey is but a mere footnote on our overall relationship. In addition to those trophies in his den, are my HS and College Diplomas, Marine Corps graduation picture and other memoriabilia. Again, is it wrong for him to proudly display his kids achievements? I don't think so.

You say that I might be "focusing too much on achievement". Maybe I am, and what's wrong with that? I want my kids to achieve in what ever they do: school, sports, career, family, etc. Is that so wrong? I'm their biggest fan and always will be. Will they achieve in every task they undertake? Of course not...but that doesn't mean we shouldn't ENCOURAGE them to achieve.

I hear ya. As Elliot pointed out, this is a bit of a tightrope walk.
Absolutely, you should absolutely encourage your kids to achieve, but to what extent? Some parents, particularly hockey parents, are a bit off the deep end. And as I alluded to, even if your kid is achieving, there are frequently circumstances which may interfere with him/her succeeding on a team level. (i.e. poor team, poor program, etc.)
Youth sports achievements are frequently given WAY too much emphasis, by parents. In the grand scheme of things, how much is it really going to matter if your kid was on a team that won a Squirt tournament?
How old are you now, Muck? If you are spending time, many years after the fact, dusting off hardware from such "achievements", the time to move on might be far off in your rear-view mirror.

I'm in my mid-40's. And I don't "dust off my trophies" as you say, my dad does (along with everything else in his den - which could be a museum - it's pretty cool). All I said is that those trophies represent good memories and I'll never apologize for that. Don't we all sometimes like to look back on our childhood good times and bad? Is there something terribly wrong with that?

And I completely agree with you, good players are many times placed on bad teams. It happens all the time. But that doesn't mean that you still can't encourage your son to succeed. If you think I mean by being an over-bearing parent and abusing your kid in the process, than I'm sorry to have misled you. That's not how I operate. I tell my kids that there are things they can control and things they can't. Success begins with focusing to excel on the things within your control.

[WayOutWest]

Continue to teach your kids to work hard and find success. Let the others keep telling themselves that none of it matters. If it really didn't matter to them, then they wouldn't be on this forum trying to stay in touch with the game.

You are taking "none of it" to the extreme. Of course playing the game matters, and striving to achieve matters. In the grand scheme of things, winning a Squirt tournament does NOT matter.

Hockey is fun. It's really fun when I see my son work hard and get better every year. Now that's Fun! We've created a lot of great memories from it and made a lot of great friends because of it. We'll keep enjoying it until it's over.

And even those folks who don't believe winning a Squirt tournament matters, would agree with that.

[zboni99]

Hotel pool: half chlorine, half urine

[Jimbo99]

Ask some basketball parents or figure skating parents or soccer parents how whacked some of those parents can get... you'll hear the same thing as you hear about hockey.

Muckandgrind... I agree with you. Continue to teach your kids to work hard and find success. Let the others keep telling themselves that none of it matters. If it really didn't matter to them, then they wouldn't be on this forum trying to stay in touch with the game.

Hockey is fun. It's really fun when I see my son work hard and get better every year. Now that's Fun! We've created a lot of great memories from it and made a lot of great friends because of it. We'll keep enjoying it until it's over.

Ask some basketball parents or figure skating parents or soccer parents how whacked some of those parents can get... you'll hear the same thing as you hear about hockey.

Muckandgrind... I agree with you. Continue to teach your kids to work hard and find success. Let the others keep telling themselves that none of it matters. If it really didn't matter to them, then they wouldn't be on this forum trying to stay in touch with the game.

Hockey is fun. It's really fun when I see my son work hard and get better every year. Now that's Fun! We've created a lot of great memories from it and made a lot of great friends because of it. We'll keep enjoying it until it's over.

Why do people seem to insist on making this discussion an "either/or proposition"??!! I think there's some room here for everyone to enjoy this whole thing. I don't believe there is anyone who has posted to this thread that would say they don't want their kids to "work hard and find success". It seems that some of us believe the best place to nurture those qualities and aspirations is at home - and done most successfully there. We're talking about matters of "perspective" and of "degrees". The lines DO exist. It's a matter of finding reasonable places to draw them. (I bet morefun and muck could come up with some over-the-top experiences themselves!?) and Yes, of course it "matters to us" - that IS why we're here! The WHOLE experience matters to us and to our kids!

It just seems to me that there are some crazy beliefs out there that drive some crazier behaviors and no one wants to discuss them too much for fear they might not feel "in control" anymore.

I love the phrase "Old time hockey". If you asked 10 different hockey parents what it means, how many answers do you think you'd get?

geesh... I'll be back later.

[itsmorefun]

[quote]Another favorite... Your Squirt son or daughter will attend just one or two away tournaments this year and stay at a nice hotel with a pool. He will be with his buddies, memories for you and him. LET HIM SWIM and eat pizza. This is far more important to THE CHILD than winning that 2nd or 3rd game. I am done watching the kids stare at the pool because they have a game in 8 hours.

Jimbo...

That insistence comes from comments like this above. This doesn't sound like a person who cares about the hockey development of her son - it sounds like its a person who just wants her son to have some fun (nothing personal hocmom - there were many others that agree with you). Which is JUST FINE... as long as you recognize that there are other people who want their kids to focus, work hard and get better. This is why there are house leagues and traveling leagues - or association verses Tier One.

It's not this ONE comment... it's comments like these that I've been hearing for over 15 years...

It's just a matter of personal interest.

[/code]

[hocmom]

This doesn't sound like a person who cares about the hockey development of her son - it sounds like its a person who just wants her son to have some fun (nothing personal hocmom - there were many others that agree with you). Which is JUST FINE... as long as you recognize that there are other people who want their kids to focus, work hard and get better. This is why there are house leagues and traveling leagues - or association verses Tier One.

You want your kid to focus, work hard and get better... Why?

May I please ask how many kids you have and what ages?

[itsmorefun]

Seriously???

[muckandgrind]

This doesn't sound like a person who cares about the hockey development of her son - it sounds like its a person who just wants her son to have some fun (nothing personal hocmom - there were many others that agree with you). Which is JUST FINE... as long as you recognize that there are other people who want their kids to focus, work hard and get better. This is why there are house leagues and traveling leagues - or association verses Tier One.

You want your kid to focus, work hard and get better... Why?

May I please ask how many kids you have and what ages?

I'm totally speechless.

I thought I've heard it all, but this takes the cake....

[Jimbo99]

This doesn't sound like a person who cares about the hockey development of her son - it sounds like its a person who just wants her son to have some fun (nothing personal hocmom - there were many others that agree with you). Which is JUST FINE... as long as you recognize that there are other people who want their kids to focus, work hard and get better. This is why there are house leagues and traveling leagues - or association verses Tier One.

You want your kid to focus, work hard and get better... Why?

May I please ask how many kids you have and what ages?

I'm totally speechless.

I thought I've heard it all, but this takes the cake....

Or you could acknowledge that it's far from unknown for a fair number of hockey parents to take things over the top, give her a little credit for what her family's experience has been like, try to understand what she's trying to say, and keep talking.

I'm gonna guess that her question is meant to get you to think about what she sees as the root of the thing. "Focus and get better" - Why?
NHL?, D1?, College, HS?, to make the A team?, the first line?, bragging rights?

If he doesn't meet anyone of those goals, what will it mean? about him?, about you?

All things worth thinking about -

All coming down to the idea that there's nothing at all wrong with focusing, working hard, winning, sacrificing, and all the rest - but MAYBE, SOMETIMES, the adults put the emphasis on the wrong things at the wrong times. Putting FUN at the top of the list does not preclude working on all the rest at the right places and times.

Does that make any sense?

[guilford]

You can focus, work hard, and get better, AND have fun at the same time. Most kids do.

[itsmorefun]

[quote]I'm gonna guess that her question is meant to get you to think about what she sees as the root of the thing. "Focus and get better" - Why? NHL?, D1?, College, HS?, to make the A team?, the first line?, bragging rights?
[/quote]

Jimbo99,

Why? You ask? All of it! None of it! Whatever... just so he learns some of life's lessons. Work hard and you'll achieve your dreams - maybe hockey, maybe baseball, maybe being president... whatever. For us and our present lives that means hockey - in years from now, maybe it will mean he's working towards a promotion...whatever...

Hocmom,

I have two sons - one is playing D1 and one is in high school. They both have learned that you have to focus and work hard to get what you want and they're both doing very well.

I feel like we made the right decisions along the way... and HAD A TON OF HOCKEY FUN in the meantime!

[hocmom]

My why question was just that, a question, explain why...to what end? If you think that through hard work and commitment your guy will carry these traits into his endeavors down the road, good deal. I agree. I do think that many parents THINK this is what they are working towards, but if this were the case then learning to LOSE with class would also be a priority. I usually see all of the high minded "character building" goals melt away pretty quick after a bad loss. Even the best players end up on teams that simply don't get it done...I have seen some really whack behavior from these "committed" parents.

HARD WORK - I think practices should be difficult and serious things. No screwing around during the drills etc. Proper skating skills should be insisted upon. Leave a bit of time at the end for fun games.

COMMITMENT - You are part of a team. You owe your team mates your hard work and respect. Coaches should be made aware of your planned absences.

DISCIPLINE - Should be fair and firm. Screwing around during practice, shenanigans in the locker room, disrespect, excessive penalties...etc. All should be be dealt with firmly.

I am about as serious as they come towards playing a good competitive game of hockey. I agree that it is more fun this way.

ALL THAT SAID...get real. Non of it really matters. What matters is that your kid be a kind and decent person. That he enjoys his time, and so do you...it is your money. I have been to far too many squirt games where the back row of standing dads had an absolutely awful time because things didn't go the way they ought. I am done watching my kids practice with a row of arm chair quarter backs explaining the way we really should practice. I am tired of walking into the arena and being approached by lunatics irate about why their kid should be on the A team. I don't care if he should or not, it honest to god does not matter. It is less important than what I am cooking for dinner.

I remember one particular squirt B game years ago. We were getting killed. The score was something like 15 zip...we were too young, some of the kids mites...etc. Our goalie was the coolest kid. The arena had great music between periods...the goalie played a mean air guitar. He was having a hoot. My older son egged him on, cheering. My family and I could not stop laughing. I had about the most fun I ever had watching a hockey game. As I looked around the usual suspects were miserable...down right mad that we were getting killed. Go home.

[muckandgrind]

You want your kid to focus, work hard and get better... Why?

May I please ask how many kids you have and what ages?

I'm totally speechless.

I thought I've heard it all, but this takes the cake....

I'm gonna guess that her question is meant to get you to think about what she sees as the root of the thing. "Focus and get better" - Why?
NHL?, D1?, College, HS?, to make the A team?, the first line?, bragging rights?

If he doesn't meet anyone of those goals, what will it mean? about him?, about you?

All things worth thinking about -

Does that make any sense?

Why is it when we are talking about "focusing" and "getting better" people always assume to motivation is the NHL or D1? When a kid is taking piano lessons and a parent wants them to focus and work hard, no assumes their motivation is for their kid to play Carnegie Hall some day. But when it comes to hockey, people always assume the worst.

Maybe parents want their kids to focus and work hard because it's the right thing to do and has nothing to do with playing sports later in life, but it might help them become better people. Youth sports is a great environment to teach kids the value of working together as a team, setting goals and focusing on how best to acheive them....and yes, of course, having fun along the way.

Hard work, focus, and having fun are not mutually exclusive, you know.

[Jimbo99]

Hard work, focus, and having fun are not mutually exclusive, you know.

That's a point many of us have been trying to make for some time here. In addition, fun can be the first priority - and that would make more sense as far as I'm concerned.

Nobody assumes that NHL & D1 are everyone's motivation. (If you'll notice, my question ran the gammut right down to "bragging rights"). The comparrisons often come up for two reasons: 1. Too many people honestly believe those are realistic expectations, and 2. Listening to and watching the antics of some, leads people to believe that the stakes must be awful damn high!! If people put that much time, energy, money, and angst into their kid's school work, we'd have nothing but geniuses on our hands!

One point: "Focus" is really more a function of age and developmental maturity than anything else. The idea of "teaching" a kid to focus is like banging your head against a wall. IMHO a good coach will be cognizant of how much "focus" any particular age group is capable of and he will make the practices, games and tourney weekends, so "fun and cool" for everyone on the team that the kids won't even know they are working hard. Coaches (and parents) who think the first priorities are that they need to "work them hard" and "teach them to focus" aint going to have much success and overall participation will decline - short term & long term.