Another discussion on Tier 1 AAA teams

[muckandgrind]

Above average math student is not getting what he needs from the local school district, do you move (can't afford it); send them to private school (can't afford it).
Look for after-school tutoring to the extent you can afford it?
And other possibilities that fall in the realm of reasonableness. But the kid still goes to math class.

Most schools I know of will offer "honors" courses for gifted students. Again, OPTIONS.

You're comparing apples and oranges when comparing the cost and headache of relocating an entire household versus the cost of AAA hockey or a more liberal waiver policy.

Sure, not all families can afford AAA hockey...but there are many who can.

[jancze5]

Okay, so we're all in agreement that there is no perfect system in the winter and that for some locations things work better than others..AAA vs Association vs whatever...Minnesota has a good system, the cost and travel are envied and our high school state tournament can't be touched by any other sport in any other state.

Agreed that we all disagree?

[DuckDuckQuackQuack]

Okay, so we're all in agreement that there is no perfect system in the winter and that for some locations things work better than others..AAA vs Association vs whatever...Minnesota has a good system, the cost and travel are envied and our high school state tournament can't be touched by any other sport in any other state.

Agreed that we all disagree?

I take pride in our high school tourney but what about Texas, California and Florida high school football? Not sure if you watch ESPN but I've already watched three high school games nationally televised this year. Not to mention that the high school talent has sure dropped off due to National program and USHL. Thoughts?

[O-townClown]

Okay, so we're all in agreement that there is no perfect system in the winter and that for some locations things work better than others..AAA vs Association vs whatever...Minnesota has a good system, the cost and travel are envied and our high school state tournament can't be touched by any other sport in any other state.

Agreed that we all disagree?

Yes. Where you see a difference is that some people can list plusses and drawbacks to different models while others always revert to "choice" without explaining how the negatives can be minimized.

Some people see players coming from non-traditional hockey areas and erroneously infer that the only way they made it was through their developmental model. The parallel I'll draw is in professional golf. At one point 100 years ago nearly all top players were Scottish. The sport grew in the United States and then there were more Americans at the top level than the rest of the world combined. Today you have top players fom Sweden, Paraguay, Argentina, Fiji, New Zealand, Korea, etc... This did not happen because America's developmental model wasn't as good as the model in other places, this happened because the sport grew and participants took it seriously in other places as well.

For a guy that prefers AAA or Tier I hockey to community stuff, I'm surprised you moved to Woodbury. Doesn't make sense. There's gotta be a woman involved somewhere.

[O-townClown]

Okay, so we're all in agreement that there is no perfect system in the winter and that for some locations things work better than others..AAA vs Association vs whatever...Minnesota has a good system, the cost and travel are envied and our high school state tournament can't be touched by any other sport in any other state.

Agreed that we all disagree?

I take pride in our high school tourney but what about Texas, California and Florida high school football? Not sure if you watch ESPN but I've already watched three high school games nationally televised this year. Not to mention that the high school talent has sure dropped off due to National program and USHL. Thoughts?

What do you like about Florida HS football? Games aren't even on TV live. It isn't a big deal at all. Texas, maybe. Florida? Nice try.

[DuckDuckQuackQuack]

Okay, so we're all in agreement that there is no perfect system in the winter and that for some locations things work better than others..AAA vs Association vs whatever...Minnesota has a good system, the cost and travel are envied and our high school state tournament can't be touched by any other sport in any other state.

Agreed that we all disagree?

I take pride in our high school tourney but what about Texas, California and Florida high school football? Not sure if you watch ESPN but I've already watched three high school games nationally televised this year. Not to mention that the high school talent has sure dropped off due to National program and USHL. Thoughts?

What do you like about Florida HS football? Games aren't even on TV live. It isn't a big deal at all. Texas, maybe. Florida? Nice try.

California and Texas all the way. Not here to argue just pointing out that High school football is big time in some states. Lets talk when Minnesota high school hockey is on ESPN someday.

[O-townClown]

Quack, I think only Indiana basketball and possibly Texas football can be mentioned in the same breath.

Football has a problem generating the same interest because it is protracted over several weeks. Indiana went away from the one-class and it no longer has the mystique. Minnesota's hockey hasn't been adversely affected because Class A is seen as second-class. It helps that Roseau played up and won.

I don't think you'll see HS hockey on ESPN. Ever. High school sports are local and the fair measure isn't national interest. Florida can't show their BB or FB live and you're implying Minnesota hockey hasn't arrived because it only has an interest within its borders? The NHL didn't make it on ESPN. Maybe the state final can make it on to the Ocho some day.

The Minnesota HS hockey tournament is still special. A few players in Junior hasn't changed that.

[demongoed]

Why wait for high school? I'm sure all ESPN would need to hear is how great the choice league is, and they'd have their cameras in southwest Edina filming those 9-10 year olds in a heartbeat. . .

[jancze5]

-Otown, Woodbury is a great quiet town and we were able to build a house out here for under 5 that would have cost over 9 in Edina. So we suck it up, can't eat cake and inherintly dislike the Green Hornets by default without cause. Make sure if you can hit the Beach Bistro ask for Murphy and ask for the Shattuck special

-It could be conceivable that ESPN gets goated into a story pitting the effort by Minnesota Made to create an option or choice for kids looking for something other than association hockey. They could spin the association to be like the old iron curtain in rule.

-I am pro AAA as an option, but believe that Minnesota has SO many off season options that we don't need it in the winter.

[O-townClown]

-Otown, Woodbury is a great quiet town and we were able to build a house out here for under 5 that would have cost over 9 in Edina. So we suck it up, can't eat cake and inherintly dislike the Green Hornets by default without cause. Make sure if you can hit the Beach Bistro ask for Murphy and ask for the Shattuck special

-It could be conceivable that ESPN gets goated into a story pitting the effort by Minnesota Made to create an option or choice for kids looking for something other than association hockey. They could spin the association to be like the old iron curtain in rule.

-I am pro AAA as an option, but believe that Minnesota has SO many off season options that we don't need it in the winter.

Jancze, that explains Woodbury v. Edina, but it doesn't explain Woodbury versus living somewhere outside the state!

I respect your opinion, which I agree with, on Minnesota not needing Tier I in-season. I'd respect it if I didn't agree with it, because you are one of those that has seen both sides and can put the positives of association in context.

Is this guy's kid at Shattuck? That program is a good fit for some Sun Belt players.

[observer]

What's up with the Fire this year?

It appears they may only have teams at three levels this year, 95, 97 & 98. Does anyone know why the organization is shrinking? What happened to the successful 96 team? Are there any/many kids from Wisconsin on these teams or is the organization now better defined as Minnesota's first foray into Tier 1 AAA as opposed to being described as a Wisconsin organization. It looks like the 97 team has most of their activity scheduled at Minnesota Made which is a long haul for Wisconsin families.

I'd like to see some winter season Tier 1 AAA opportunities in Minnesota but want it done with a better defined mission. Seems a little sneaky again without teams at more levels and 90% of the players and ice coming from Minnesota. I think in order to be respected, and accepted, they need better leadership and organization.

Are we close to winter season Tier 1 AAA in Minnesota or is it here already but nobody knows about it? Fire, can you please state your mission and vision for the future?

[muckandgrind]

What's up with the Fire this year?

It appears they may only have teams at three levels this year, 95, 97 & 98. Does anyone know why the organization is shrinking? What happened to the successful 96 team? Are there any/many kids from Wisconsin on these teams or is the organization now better defined as Minnesota's first foray into Tier 1 AAA as opposed to being described as a Wisconsin organization. It looks like the 97 team has most of their activity scheduled at Minnesota Made which is a long haul for Wisconsin families.

I'd like to see some winter season Tier 1 AAA opportunities in Minnesota but want it done with a better defined mission. Seems a little sneaky again without teams at more levels and 90% of the players and ice coming from Minnesota. I think in order to be respected, and accepted, they need better leadership and organization.

Are we close to winter season Tier 1 AAA in Minnesota or is it here already but nobody knows about it? Fire, can you please state your mission and vision for the future?

I sure hope so. There are some good players floundering in rotten associations who would jump at the chance to get together on a good AAA Club(s) for winter hockey. It will eventually happen...When? I'm not sure.

[cutanddrive]

[quote=". There are some good players floundering in rotten associations who would jump at the chance to get together on a good AAA Club(s) for winter hockey. It will eventually happen...When? I'm not sure.[/quote]

That is a crappy phrase, with all due respect.

[muckandgrind]

[quote=". There are some good players floundering in rotten associations who would jump at the chance to get together on a good AAA Club(s) for winter hockey. It will eventually happen...When? I'm not sure.

That is a crappy phrase, with all due respect.

Why? Are you denying that there are some rotten associations out there? Some are "rotten" in the way they are run, while some are "rotten" in the fact that there aren't enough players to form competitive teams. Those are facts....The poorly run associations have someone to blame, while the lack of players can be blamed on no one other than demographics. Either way, there ARE "rotten" associations and that is a fact.

AAA Clubs could be a nice option for a gifted player who's development could otherwise be hampered playing in a sub-par association.

I understand people want to believe that MN Hockey is the "Holy Grail" and that all local associations are pictures of perfection...but let me assure you, that is not the case.

[cutanddrive]

M&G

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:32 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm new to this forum, but after reading some of the posts in this thread I felt like I needed to join the fray.

mcb

[DuckDuckQuackQuack]

[quote=". There are some good players floundering in rotten associations who would jump at the chance to get together on a good AAA Club(s) for winter hockey. It will eventually happen...When? I'm not sure.

That is a crappy phrase, with all due respect.

Why? Are you denying that there are some rotten associations out there? Some are "rotten" in the way they are run, while some are "rotten" in the fact that there aren't enough players to form competitive teams. Those are facts....The poorly run associations have someone to blame, while the lack of players can be blamed on no one other than demographics. Either way, there ARE "rotten" associations and that is a fact.

AAA Clubs could be a nice option for a gifted player who's development could otherwise be hampered playing in a sub-par association.

I understand people want to believe that MN Hockey is the "Holy Grail" and that all local associations are pictures of perfection...but let me assure you, that is not the case.

muckandgrind- Thanks for speaking the truth and nothing but the truth.
Bravo! Three cheers for muckandgrind...........

Hip-hip-harrayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
Hip-hip-harrayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
Hip-hip-harrayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

[Dazed&Confused]

AAA, Are family spent a few years on the Fire circuit. Several reasons fueled are defection to the dark side. #1 A choice #2 The travel #3 Coaching #4 Expense
#1 Having an option and not having to settle for a level that did not fit his desires.
#2 We had an absolute blast traveling to all the cities and areanas across North America.
#3 The coaching was deffinately better and more consistant
#4 The cost Dollar for dollar we recieved more for the money spent.
The Club was not married to an overpriced community rink.
We also had the option of raising funds as we needed.
Practice times held true all season and less often.
2 hours vs 50 min.
All in all a good expierance and should be an option.

[DuckDuckQuackQuack]

AAA, Are family spent a few years on the Fire circuit. Several reasons fueled are defection to the dark side. #1 A choice #2 The travel #3 Coaching #4 Expense
#1 Having an option and not having to settle for a level that did not fit his desires.
#2 We had an absolute blast traveling to all the cities and areanas across North America.
#3 The coaching was deffinately better and more consistant
#4 The cost Dollar for dollar we recieved more for the money spent.
The Club was not married to an overpriced community rink.
We also had the option of raising funds as we needed.
Practice times held true all season and less often.
2 hours vs 50 min.
All in all a good expierance and should be an option.

Great story! Sounds like a fun program and the family had fun. Imagine that?

[CB00]

It's that time of year again to question the value of AAA Tier 1 hockey. I find it some what confusing when people who have not experienced Tier 1, seem to be authorities on the subject. My son played Tier 1 Fire for 4 seasons. I and my son would never look back and say "what a mistake." I hear the argument of cost. I'm no millionaire and many of the other families made sacrifices of time and money to make it happen. But in relative costs, the fees were in comparision to association fees. Travel to 4-5 tournaments were of course more costly, but remember a hotel room in Duluth is the same a hotel room in Detroit. Most of the travel can be made by car, so sure you have some added expense in gas. Many times parents would send there son with another parent to help in cost of travel. Parents had a choice.

The experiences may son has had playing the top 94's in the country and the top Minnesota Bantams was invaluable to his development of a player and person.

There are ways for MN Hockey to make it affordable. Create a league of 6-10 teams, were travel is no more then playing for your association. Put restrictions on the number of players from an association. If MN had Tier 1, teams from Chicago, Detroit and Toronto would surely come to play these teams. They will not come and play in the Summer AAA tournaments, as these ARE NOT Tier 1 level. This would bring the travel for Tier 1 teams to a minimum. Maybe allow teams to travel outside the state only twice season. They could go to the big Tier 1 Tournaments and play 5-6 games in a 3 day weekend. Why not.

Now it's time for my son to move back into his association, there is no Fire 94's this year. Many of the players are going to High School, Shattuck or other Tier 1 teams. Our association has bent over backwards to make my son feel welcome. I applaud them, unlike other associations who want to make a "statement." We look forward to our future with the association and High School.

If you have an opinion on this subject, please state if you have had any experience with Tier 1. I find that the people who have experienced Tier 1 have few few negative comments concerning Tier 1 on the forum. Everybody's an expert on things they know nothing about!

I want to thank the Fire Hockey Club for giving my son the opportunity to be a part of it for 4 years. Let the people decide.

[muckandgrind]

It's that time of year again to question the value of AAA Tier 1 hockey. I find it some what confusing when people who have not experienced Tier 1, seem to be authorities on the subject. My son played Tier 1 Fire for 4 seasons. I and my son would never look back and say "what a mistake." I hear the argument of cost. I'm no millionaire and many of the other families made sacrifices of time and money to make it happen. But in relative costs, the fees were in comparision to association fees. Travel to 4-5 tournaments were of course more costly, but remember a hotel room in Duluth is the same a hotel room in Detroit. Most of the travel can be made by car, so sure you have some added expense in gas. Many times parents would send there son with another parent to help in cost of travel. Parents had a choice.

The experiences may son has had playing the top 94's in the country and the top Minnesota Bantams was invaluable to his development of a player and person.

There are ways for MN Hockey to make it affordable. Create a league of 6-10 teams, were travel is no more then playing for your association. Put restrictions on the number of players from an association. If MN had Tier 1, teams from Chicago, Detroit and Toronto would surely come to play these teams. They will not come and play in the Summer AAA tournaments, as these ARE NOT Tier 1 level. This would bring the travel for Tier 1 teams to a minimum. Maybe allow teams to travel outside the state only twice season. They could go to the big Tier 1 Tournaments and play 5-6 games in a 3 day weekend. Why not.

Now it's time for my son to move back into his association, there is no Fire 94's this year. Many of the players are going to High School, Shattuck or other Tier 1 teams. Our association has bent over backwards to make my son feel welcome. I applaud them, unlike other associations who want to make a "statement." We look forward to our future with the association and High School.

If you have an opinion on this subject, please state if you have had any experience with Tier 1. I find that the people who have experienced Tier 1 have few few negative comments concerning Tier 1 on the forum. Everybody's an expert on things they know nothing about!

I want to thank the Fire Hockey Club for giving my son the opportunity to be a part of it for 4 years. Let the people decide.

I don't have any personal experience with Tier 1, but a friend of mine's son played for the 93 Fire two years ago and also said it was a great experience.

I'm with you. I don't know what everyone is afraid of. If they don't want their kids to have anything to do with it fine, but don't disparage anyone else who thinks it's a good idea. The more options available the better.

[O-townClown]

I'm with you. I don't know what everyone is afraid of. If they don't want their kids to have anything to do with it fine, but don't disparage anyone else who thinks it's a good idea. The more options available the better.

So you're saying you don't think any of the arguments against are valid. Geez, at least you're open-minded and can see both sides of the issue.

[muckandgrind]

I'm with you. I don't know what everyone is afraid of. If they don't want their kids to have anything to do with it fine, but don't disparage anyone else who thinks it's a good idea. The more options available the better.

So you're saying you don't think any of the arguments against are valid. Geez, at least you're open-minded and can see both sides of the issue.

I consider myself to be open-minded, but I have yet to hear a valid argument as to how a couple of Tier I teams could negatively impact MN Hockey as a whole.

[spin-o-rama]

I would like to hear your reasons how 2 Tier I teams will benefit Minnesota.

[jancze5]

Is that what the question is, how will it benefit Minnesota, because I thought the answer was OPTIONS. One simple answer, OPTIONS.

This is beating a dead horse, I guess the reality is we can talk about this until we're blue in the face, but until 8 guys get together and create a hypothetical league, with potential rink contracts, and a model to present to Minnesota Hockey, we're just going to keep talking about this over and over and over again.

Without ice, the issue isn't worth table-ing. I'm fairly certain if I walked into Wakota today and said I want all of your TUE-WED-THU ice starting the first week of AUG 2009 from 5 pm to 10 pm, here's a check for 29K, I doubt they'd sell it to me. Minnesota Made, sure. A community rink, not likely.

[spin-o-rama]

There have to be some guidelines that are followed. If choice was the criteria then we would have the option(for instance) for teams chosing to have checking at mites, 25 on a roster, or 7X7 play. They are not necessarily bad, but need to be weighed and a decision made if it gives a net benefit. The same with Tier I.

Jancze, you bring up a very good point about available ice. Local community rinks dedicate their prime time ice to the local associations. Not even Wally Shaver can buck this. There are other questions that need to be weighed. Some of mine are:

How many teams? What rule is going to dictate the limit? Are we fine with watered down hockey that is Tier I in name only (see summer hockey)? If you restrict the number, how will you legally be able to defend it when challenged?

How will teams be selected? What is the criteria? One argument for Tier I is that it gives the awesome player rotting on a small association losing team a chance to be on a winning team. How will you guarantee that the Tier I team will be a winning team with great coaching, team management, and development? Many use the Fire of example of positive Tier I experience. How does a startup guarantee that? The Fire still has slip-ups like the coach cert fiasco of last year. Tier I also won’t eliminate power struggles. The Fire had internal strife with a coach who played his kid the whole game. Tier I is not immune to the stereotypical association issues.

Will they be for profit or non profit? MH is dedicated to a non profit model. Tier I generally is not.

Will MH be pressed to provide scholarships for poor kids to play? Or will these teams only serve the affluent?

Those are just my off the cuff questions. There are probably many other concerns. The grass isn't always greener.