Tier 1

[itsmorefun]

Even the discussion of this topic disgusts me! There are so many things wrong with this, I wouldn't even know where to start...and anyone who supports this decision should be ashamed! These are the kinds of arrogant things that keep happening in Minnesota hockey that continues to put MH hockey behind the rest of the country (and yes...with the amount of kids that play this sport, our percentage of talented players is not where it should be). Above average kids will continue to move to places (private schools, or Tier 1 leagues) in order to play a higher level of hockey without all of this association bullsh@t! Keep it up, Lakeville, you're making it easier for Tier 1 hockey to have it's place in Minnesota.

[buttend]

Even the discussion of this topic disgusts me! There are so many things wrong with this, I wouldn't even know where to start...and anyone who supports this decision should be ashamed! Keep it up, Lakeville, you're making it easier for Tier 1 hockey to have it's place in Minnesota.

The right thing to do is to have the members of the "Knee Jerk Seven" make a proposal at the August Board meeting that removes this policy from the Policy/Handbook. If this does not happen than every member of the "Knee Jerk Seven" should be offering their resignation from the Board. THERE IS NO ROOM FOR PREJUDICE/DISCRIMINATION IN YOUTH SPORTS, ESPECIALLY AT THIS LEVEL!

[conditioningsucks]

This is pretty goofy.

If a kid decided to play basketball for a winter because he was burned out on hockey, would this preclude him/her from returning and making an "A" team?

Of course not.

The Fire and other programs should be looked at as 'just another activity'. Perhaps a parent wanted to try out the $10,000 a year Fire program (when you add up travel, hotels, ice, etc.) to see if it would actually be good for their kid. Perhaps the parent was sick of other parents in the association and wanted a break.

This one is on the same level of highschool coaches meddling with the coaching staffs and tryout processes of associations....making sure that any private school kids get the shaft.

Lakeville....revisit this one at your next board meeting. It is not out of line for an association to state that if a kid that left the program is a bubble kid and that if it comes down to everything but the flip of a coin.....that the kid that was loyal to the association gets the position. If the kid is not a bubble kid....it is a nonissue and they should make the team.

[wiscobad]

[Bruins]

[quote="wiscobad"
.

Tier 1 is coming-- don't kid yourself. For more reasons than ripping the control from Napoleanic Agenda Ridden Boards. Minnesota does not have representation in national hockey competition. Texas, Colorado, Arizona, California, and many other new hockey hot beds are narrowing the gap (actually it's to the point of exploitation).

Minnesota hockey has stood idly by while others have significantly progressed (perfecting the competitive association model). Minnesota hockey uses a rotary phone as everyone else is blackberrying away.[/quote]

I could not agree more, good post.

[DuckDuckQuackQuack]

[quote="wiscobad"
.

Tier 1 is coming-- don't kid yourself. For more reasons than ripping the control from Napoleanic Agenda Ridden Boards. Minnesota does not have representation in national hockey competition. Texas, Colorado, Arizona, California, and many other new hockey hot beds are narrowing the gap (actually it's to the point of exploitation).

Minnesota hockey has stood idly by while others have significantly progressed (perfecting the competitive association model). Minnesota hockey uses a rotary phone as everyone else is blackberrying away.

I could not agree more, good post.[/quote]

Good post? I say it's a great post. I know one out state neighbor is about to offer something interesting in the next year. That's right! Our next door neighbors are making the move. Stay tuned!

[stupidiswhatstupiddoes]

The Lakeville story is a tough one - if you want to think that is clearly the Association or the people that left and only ONE of them is the cause of the problem than you aren't in tune with the details.

How would you feel if four individual sets PARENTS of the top Lakeville North came together and decided to make the move to the Fire as a GROUP leaving your SqA team desimated...probably would piss you off a little bit (spare me the comments about the kid choosing to leave - this was a group of parents that decided and then brought it to the kids who ultimately said YES).

The association did not do a very good job in understanding their role for the past few years - simply put, they are the business and the parents are the customers - improve your product and you don't have a problem. So, this should be a wake up call for Lakeville and other associations to get their heads together and more importantly start connecting with and listening to their customers. The Lakeville closet is not clean so get busy and take responsiblity for this outcome rather than trying to penalize them for their decision as difficult as that may be to do.

Both parties had a hand in this mess.

[Tenoverpar]

"left the Squirt A team desimated" question, did these kids tryout for Lakeville North or not? If the kids were already leaving (Fire tryouts were in June last year), then they didn't leave anything desimated, they weren't there to begin with and because of it 4 other boys were afforded the oppurtunity to play Squirt A.

Let's not look past the fact that last year at the end of the season the Lakeville Squirts, who were not eligible for the district playoffs due to overplaying the games limit of Minnesota hockey, still played the tournament, then decided to take the goalie from the North and move him to the South for the Championship game, another priceless move. (or at least that's the rumor out there, true or not?)

I mean, what kind of monkeyship is being run down there?

This "FEAR" tactic being instilled is pathetic, I'm sorry. Minnesota association hockey is special, but doesn't need this. The Fire Hockey Club needs to exist. It needs to be there as an OPTION. It needs to be there for the kid from the small town who has an option of playing Pee Wee B or nothing but needs more competition. It needs to be there so assocations don't have the "it doesn't matter what product I produce, the people are screwed and have NO CHOICE but to come to us MONOPOLY".

Thank god for Bernie and Minnesota Made, if you live in commuting distance, you have an option for your Mite or Squirt and I'm sure for you Pee Wee, then your Bantam in the next few years.

[Educator29]

Well, I never say much on these sights but if Lakeville does send 4 kids down to the "B" Team. They willnot be a true "B" Team if these kids are truely "A" Players. I have seen 2 kids, who did not want to play for an "A" Coach in a local association, make a huge difference. They played "B" - dominated and went to the MN Hockey State Tournament at the B level. I would recommend other "B" Teams withhold and do not play Lakeville - due to the fact they may not be a ligit "B" Team.

MN Hockey set the differnt levels for a reason. it was only to seperate different levels of "TALENT" So if I am correct Lakeville is "MAD" that these kids made a choice to do something different and they now will show them. Maybe they just want a "B" state appearance..?? LAkeville don't worry - Your Board is not the only messed up board in the state.

Remember - this is a kids game... let them play and have fun...

[keepyourheadup]

All valid points, hard to believe that this topic was even discussed much less acted on. The problem didn't start with the squirts...see 93 fire roster at the start of last season...5 or six lakeville kids made the move. In its simplist terms this really comes down to the desire to win. The loss of top players at any level naturally bothers those left behind. Parents have high hopes for their kids to be part of a winning team and then feel the rug is being pulled out from under them. Do they have the right to be angry? I can't answer that but they certainly shouldn't have the right to exact their revenge on a group of kids.
As for tier 1 peewees and bantams it likely will happen....its allready happening at the high school level with private schools.

[MoreCowBell]

The Lakeville story is a tough one - if you want to think that is clearly the Association or the people that left and only ONE of them is the cause of the problem than you aren't in tune with the details.

How would you feel if four individual sets PARENTS of the top Lakeville North came together and decided to make the move to the Fire as a GROUP leaving your SqA team desimated...probably would piss you off a little bit (spare me the comments about the kid choosing to leave - this was a group of parents that decided and then brought it to the kids who ultimately said YES).

The association did not do a very good job in understanding their role for the past few years - simply put, they are the business and the parents are the customers - improve your product and you don't have a problem.

So, this should be a wake up call for Lakeville and other associations to get their heads together and more importantly start connecting with and listening to their customers. The Lakeville closet is not clean so get busy and take responsiblity for this outcome rather than trying to penalize them for their decision as difficult as that may be to do.

Both parties had a hand in this mess.

Is it about winning championships or is it about developing kids, with 4 kids leaving the A team that opens up spots for 4 B-team kids to get exposed to a higher level, an opportunity they would not have if the 4 stayed, and now 4 B2 kids move up also.

[iwearmysunglassesatnight]

For your consideration: ( other associations have been asked to provide input/implement????)

LAKEVILLE OPT-OUT RULE (aka Lakeville Pride Rule):
“An individual who is registered for the current (upcoming) Winter season as a LHA player, who registered and/or played for another association and/or non-LHA team the previous Winter season(s) while still a Lakeville resident, which was preceded as a LHA registered player, will upon their return and registration with LHA, have a waiting period of one (1) Winter season, before the player is eligible to play, practice or be placed with a LHA “A” team roster. The intent of this rule is to encourage Lakeville residents to support our Association and have Lakeville youth play within the LHA. Benefits of the rule include: more accurate LHA budgeting; greater unified morale; stronger foundation for development. The intent of this philosophy is consistent with the State High School Rule. Exemption may be granted by the HDC.”

Example:
2006-07 Player on LHA team, Lakeville resident
2007-08 Player on NON-LHA team, Lakeville resident
2008-09 Player on LHA team, Lakeville resident
In the 2008-09 season the player would be eligible to play “B” or “C” only.

[Can't Never Tried]

For your consideration: ( other associations have been asked to provide input/implement????)

LAKEVILLE OPT-OUT RULE (aka Lakeville Pride Rule):
“An individual who is registered for the current (upcoming) Winter season as a LHA player, who registered and/or played for another association and/or non-LHA team the previous Winter season(s) while still a Lakeville resident, which was preceded as a LHA registered player, will upon their return and registration with LHA, have a waiting period of one (1) Winter season, before the player is eligible to play, practice or be placed with a LHA “A” team roster. The intent of this rule is to encourage Lakeville residents to support our Association and have Lakeville youth play within the LHA. Benefits of the rule include: more accurate LHA budgeting; greater unified morale; stronger foundation for development. The intent of this philosophy is consistent with the State High School Rule. Exemption may be granted by the HDC.”

Example:
2006-07 Player on LHA team, Lakeville resident
2007-08 Player on NON-LHA team, Lakeville resident
2008-09 Player on LHA team, Lakeville resident
In the 2008-09 season the player would be eligible to play “B” or “C” only.

What a Joke !
People can choose what they want.
What other stupid rules do they have?

Once you start telling people what they can do and can't do, or for petes sake punishing kids for playing sports, because you hurt our feelings last year. This is appalling. I'd move.


HS is diifferent.... it's so that players are not congregating at a schools to make all star teams that compete in the same league.
If they are leaving to play AAA and not against your witto LV team what do you care.
I believe you are in for hard times LHA you make a great case for transfers.

[iwearmysunglassesatnight]

CNT, I don't believe members have heard the last of this policy. It would be interesting to know how much support there is, if any from MH? It was my understanding that this policy did not include mites. However I don't read it that way. It appears a player in the Mite Choice league this season will not be able to play on the squirt A team next season.

[hckynuts]

Wow! This is why we have to get involved with our assosciations, so we can displace overinvolved parents and other political misfits from being in a position of power over kids having the opportunity to learn something they love and having a blast doing it.
The boards job is to determine if they want an A team and fill it with the best tryout results-period. At that point, focus is on teaching and having fun, no matter who is on the team!! Teach them well, and you will have parents and kids working very hard to be on the team, thats it, period!
Results come from good teaching and motivated participants. I have not met a 10 year old that is good enough to play A hockey that cares more than 2 minutes who they play with if the coach sets the environment correctly. They just want to play!! Let them play!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Get out of the way!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[spin-o-rama]

The intent of this philosophy is consistent with the State High School Rule.

Geeze, why don't you write a rule that is consistent with the NHL entry draft? Afterall, you seem to think the board owns these kids' right to play.

Lame spin on the reasons for the rule. 4 kids leaving is really going to mess up finances and scheduling? More than that move in and out every year.

MH has granted lakeville a monopoly on kids in that school district. If they aren't treated fairly then they are in abuse of the monopoly. And it won't be hard to prove. Edina PWA won state and went 0-3 against the Fire last year. Hard to imagine a Fire player not being good enough for lha A.

[tomASS]

CNT, I don't believe members have heard the last of this policy. It would be interesting to know how much support there is, if any from MH? It was my understanding that this policy did not include mites. However I don't read it that way. It appears a player in the Mite Choice league this season will not be able to play on the squirt A team next season.

I believe there should be a deadline for notification of a player's intent of where they will play so an association can plan properly. But I agree with CNT that every season begins a new and each tryout season the slate is washed clean.

It's a good thing youth hockey doesn't have the no boundaries rule like soccer does. You either become better at the programs you offer and the teams you field or you lose players to the surrounding community clubs.

Of course team placement is earned through promotion or relegation based on the team's past history. A club is not guaranteed any level of team placement. This does prevent true player development since the focus on league games becomes all about winning and moving up a level. However then it comes into increased costs for ice time (or in this case fields) since why would a community arena give special consideration to an association that has 30 % of kids from outside the community?

Become better with the programs you offer. Why does it make a parent feel better about themselves if they knew their child's place on a team was based on a very short-sighted silly rule versus because some other kids were not allowed to play. If it's worth having it's worth earning.

Community Pride? More like pure lack of common sense. I don't think they thought this through very well.

Stupid is as stupid does make a valid point that it took two parties to create this mess and on one side it was more likely driven by parents who are over the top on their attitude concerning their kid and maybe didn't provide the association enough notification they were leaving until after the association had selected the team

Lakeville - you never punish a player for the sins, mistakes, or alternate choices of the parents.

[iwearmysunglassesatnight]

[quote="spin-o-rama"][quote="iwearmysunglassesatnight"] The intent of this philosophy is consistent with the State High School Rule. [/quote]
[b]
Geeze, why don't you write a rule that is consistent with the NHL entry draft? Afterall, you seem to think the board owns these kids' right to play. [/b]


Spin-O-Rama : I pasted the policy on here for people to see. It was sent to me from the District 6 meeting and to be discussed among our association board. LHA did not seek our association input in writing their policy.

[trademerightfreakinnow]

Tomass...apparently you don't know LHA very well. The board has been famous for mistreating the kids based on the parents popularity. There is a great concern, within the association, about speaking out about the board because parents fear retaliation. There seems to be one or two retalitory moves every year and they continue to get away with it. The saddest part of all these "self serving" moves is that it is NOT in the best interest of the kids![/quote]

[DuckDuckQuackQuack]

Question: Will Minnesota hockey allow these types of rules? Will the district allow these rules? Will the parents stand for these rules?
Like some one stated earlier when associations start penalizing kids for skating with a private program then please expect AAA hockey sooner than later. Don't point fingers when it happens.

Associations-

1) Please understand that these kids will come back better skaters.

2) Then ask yourself why are the kids leaving in the first place?

[tomASS]

Tomass...apparently you don't know LHA very well. The board has been famous for mistreating the kids based on the parents popularity. There is a great concern, within the association, about speaking out about the board because parents fear retaliation. There seems to be one or two retalitory moves every year and they continue to get away with it. The saddest part of all these "self serving" moves is that it is NOT in the best interest of the kids!

[/quote]

You are correct, I don't know the history or workings of this association.

I do know there is typically 3 sides to every story. The two embattled parties' sides with the truth falling somewhere in between the two.

If it is as bad you you indicate, go to the published policies and by-laws of the association. You will probably find all sorts of inconsistencies in how they have followed the by-laws.

If all else fails ask for the financials - According to the state attorney general's office an organization of this nature must publish their financials when requested by the membership. That will get them squirming and probably give you leverage

[Jimbo99]

So, can someone from Lakeville fill us all in on why some parents are taking these A kids away from the association? So far all we have are vague guesses. Last year it was south bantams (right?). This year it's north squirts. Different levels, different coaches involved, different highschools. So what is it?! The Fire and STA and Holy Angels will always be able to recruit (oops, I mean draw) players from a wider area and put more talented teams on the ice. If that's what the parents are looking for (for their "elite" children) how is the LHA supposed to stop them?

I'm not advocating their rule (it's dumb) but I'm having a hard time understanding what the associations are supposed to fix to keep these guys from leaving.

I think they're going to continue to leave (from all associations) and very few will return, rule or no rule.

[CB00]

Jimbo

The Fire can only "steal" 8-12 Minnesota players per team. I don't think this should reduce the talent pool of Minnesota hockey players. Don't worry about what others do, worry about yourself.

If its broken, fix it!

[Jimbo99]

Jimbo

The Fire can only "steal" 8-12 Minnesota players per team. I don't think this should reduce the talent pool of Minnesota hockey players. Don't worry about what others do, worry about yourself.

If its broken, fix it!

Who said "steal"? And, I'm not at all worried about what they're doing. I'm interested and wondering if anyone knows WHY these guys are leaving the LHA, or anywhere else?

[O-townClown]

Minnesota does not have representation in national hockey competition. Texas, Colorado, Arizona, California, and many other new hockey hot beds are narrowing the gap (actually it's to the point of exploitation).

Minnesota hockey has stood idly by while others have significantly progressed (perfecting the competitive association model). Minnesota hockey uses a rotary phone as everyone else is blackberrying away.

This is misleading on so many levels. First off, is it possible that the people in charge of Minnesota Hockey aren't complete idiots? Rick Reilly has written about his neighbor who asked, "why did we travel from Colorado to Virginia to play another team from Colorado?" The field of the Minnesota state Pee Wee and Bantam tournaments is every bit as strong as the USA Hockey National Championships, and probably even stronger at the bottom. Shoot, District 6 at these levels is probably about as tough. On top of that...NOBODY CARES who wins nationals? Beyond the MCI audience - Friends and Family - there are no fans. Zero. Watch "In the Crease" if you want to see what the Bantam Nationals look like when they are held in Illinois. I call it anonymous hockey. Nobody watches.

Second, there is nothing Minnesota can do to stop other parts of the country from getting better and better at hockey. The NHL expaned to the Sun Belt and you have decent youth programs in all those cities. Charlotte, Nashville, Atlanta, Ft. Lauderdale, Tampa, Dallas, Phoenix, and Los Angeles. The Pee Wee National Championships were won by a team from the Tampa/St. Pete area (Tier II) and a team from Los Angeles (Tier I). Are these areas "narrowing the gap"? How can they not? Realize that all the good kids in the whole Dallas Metroplex (an area of 5 million people) wind up on the same one or two teams. Shoot, the TPH Thunder at the Bantam level played all their games in areas like IL, MI, and Ontario, practiced in TN, AL, and GA, and had players from other Southeastern states like FL. They keep broadening the drawing area until they have a competitive Tier I (AAA) team. If Minnesota wants to emulate that you'll have one team comprised mostly of Eden Prairie and Edina kids, another one from Minnetonka, Chaska, and other parts of D6, and maybe one for ALL of Northern Minnesota.

Why? Minnesota still churns out 20% of all D1 American hockey players (13% of the total when you include Canadians) - FAR more than any other state. Including Michigan and Massachusetts.

The best Minnesota youth players get to play more than 50 in-season games in Bantams. If you feel the state doesn't adequately 'develop' (whatever that means) enough hockey players, methinks the gap is at the high school age where kids are limited to more like 30 games.

Be careful what you wish for... You know how that saying goes. Tier I may solve some problems, but it surely creates just as many new ones.

I had a talk today with a friend that has won events on the PGA Tour. He didn't have the opportunity to play a lot of junior golf tournaments as a kid, so I asked him some questions.

When did you start?
When did you think you might be pretty good?
When did you decide to focus on it seriously?
When did you give up other sports in order to play more golf?

Bottom line. He wanted it and made it, despite not having the parental push. There are literally scores of kids that don't do much in college golf and tennis that were product of the academies. At some age kids will do what it takes. Or they won't.

You don't have kids begging for AAA. And if you do I can tell you where they got the idea.