Bridge collapse

[Joey (nine toes) Marcoux]

Very tragic event

Our prayers to all

[packerboy]

Although it is no consolation to those that lost someone, I was amazed that the death total was so low. The last I heard 4 were dead and 8 were missing, presumed dead.

They wont find anybody alive so it looks like 12 dead.

When I first heard about it and saw it on TV , I figured 50 would die minimum.

Its a tragedy either way but alot of peple are very fortunate to be still walking around when you consider the circumstances.

[Govs93]

Although it is no consolation to those that lost someone, I was amazed that the death total was so low. The last I heard 4 were dead and 8 were missing, presumed dead.

They wont find anybody alive so it looks like 12 dead.

When I first heard about it and saw it on TV , I figured 50 would die minimum.

Its a tragedy either way but alot of peple are very fortunate to be still walking around when you consider the circumstances.

Agreed... considering the number of cars on the bridge at that time, 13 is an awful lucky number (they found a 5th this morning and are still saying 8 missing, so I think it'll end up being 13).

[HShockeywatcher]

Last I saw it was 50 missing, 4 dead, and a lot injured. Did they find a lot of those missing then?

[ChrisK]

I believe the injured total is 79. Many of these people found their own way to the emergency rooms so they were 'missing' to the rescue workers on the scene until they could verify where they were.

The current missing total is 8 and it wouldn't surprise me if another body is pulled out of the rubble and/or one of the critically injured people doesn't make it so the toll will likely be about 15. And like packerboy said that is amazing considering how many people were on the bridge at the time. My thought is that it's a testament to how well the cars are built now, but really it's probably more luck than anything.

The fingerpointing and politics will soon begin but let's hope these people remember two things: let's make sure this doesn't happen again and get this bridge replaced as soon and as safely as possible.

[HShockeywatcher]

Thanks for the info.

It's just sad that there are so many bridges out there that need to be fixed. But remember that 40% of the bridges in the country need to be fixed, while only 3% of those in MN need to be fixed.

One thing I think is odd is how they say that the lowest rating for bridges is a rating where "they are safe to drive on, but they need to be looked at and fixed soon." What about the rating "no one can drive on this bridge and it needs to be fixed tomorrow?"

[ChrisK]

In regards to this particular bridge one thing that has struck me as odd is why in the hell were they repairing the decking when the structure underneath was in such poor shape.

According to reports, they had looked into bolting steel plates on the beams but felt that installing the plates would compromise the structure. And this bridge was built before they were aware of the dangers of fatigue cracking in the steel beams. In light of that isn't repairing the decking like re-stuccoing a house with rotting wood underneath the stucco?

[HShockeywatcher]

That's a good point.

There is no situation in which a bridge should just collapse. Something like what happened to the Tocoma bridge is completely preventable if you have the right engineers making the bridge. One of two things happened; either their was an earthquake of some size or someone screwed up. I don't understand why someone can't just come out and say "we screwed up, we put money somewhere else" or something like that.

[Govs93]

In regards to this particular bridge one thing that has struck me as odd is why in the hell were they repairing the decking when the structure underneath was in such poor shape.

According to reports, they had looked into bolting steel plates on the beams but felt that installing the plates would compromise the structure. And this bridge was built before they were aware of the dangers of fatigue cracking in the steel beams. In light of that isn't repairing the decking like re-stuccoing a house with rotting wood underneath the stucco?

You won't be the only one asking this question. As soon as everybody's accounted for and recovered, somebody's going to catch a lot of hell.

[PanthersIn2011]

ChrisK:

I liked your house analogy. However, suppose the best inspector you can find tells you the stucco and interior structure will last another ten years, but you need a new roof immediately. Would you reshingle at a fraction of the cost, or tear down and rebuild now?

Different parts of structures have different lifespans and costs. It does not seem all that strange to me that a Minnesota road surface needed immediate repair in 2007 on a bridge that was slated for replacement before 2020.

I guess it all comes down to whether you believe there was negligence here, or whether it was a catastrophic event-- we humans simply haven't reduced civil engineering to a perfect science. I'm not sure that I've yet landed on either of these theories, but certainly haven't ruled out the latter.

Godspeed to all those affected.

[Govs93]

Interesting (Quicktime Required).

[elliott70]

Interesting (Quicktime Required).

Thanks, govs, that was interesting.

[HShockeywatcher]

PanthersIn2011, that is a very good point.

It could be a money issue thing in addition to all that have mentioned. There is only so much money that can be spent and maybe it wasn't supposed to go there yet. Not sure, just a thought. Either that negligence or the earthquake thing.

[EREmpireStrikesBack]

First off, I'm here and thankfully don't know of anyone that was on the bridge. Thoughts and prayers with those who are having to deal with that.

Secondly, the description of the bridge's condition was made by an engineer. They aren't good at descriptions, so take it with a grain of salt.

Thirdly, watching the video does it look pretty odd to anyone else how quickly it came down? I don't want to be a superconspiracist, but from watching bridges and things of that magnitude come down, it almost looks like it had help. There was no buckling or bending at all, just straight down.

Just my thoughts on it, but the odd thing is how this bridge can be applied to other things that are underfunded. A school for example could be "deteriorating (or whatever they described the bridge as)" because the class sizes are huge and the technology used is outdated. Not only do they need to look at transportation funding, but other areas as well.

[Govs93]

Interesting (Quicktime Required).

Thanks, govs, that was interesting.

If you zoom in on it a little bit, I think it gives you a pretty good look at the way the south end of the bridge fell about 50 feet or so to the east as the NTSB has been saying. That is interesting. Most of the bridge seems to have gone straight down, but that part turned - I'll be curious to hear the explanation of that.

[Can't Never Tried]

I think you gotta hand it to the car manufactures...as far as I know the people that landed on top of the bridge pretty much all survived..in particular there was one silver car or suv right in the middle and it looks like it drove up afterwards...they ought to take that car and give whom ever owned it a new one just for the right to say this is how tough are cars are...6 story drop

Of course it's probably completly broke apart inside but it just looked untouched.

[grindiangrad-80]

First off, I'm here and thankfully don't know of anyone that was on the bridge. Thoughts and prayers with those who are having to deal with that.

Secondly, the description of the bridge's condition was made by an engineer. They aren't good at descriptions, so take it with a grain of salt.

Thirdly, watching the video does it look pretty odd to anyone else how quickly it came down? I don't want to be a superconspiracist, but from watching bridges and things of that magnitude come down, it almost looks like it had help. There was no buckling or bending at all, just straight down.

Just my thoughts on it, but the odd thing is how this bridge can be applied to other things that are underfunded. A school for example could be "deteriorating (or whatever they described the bridge as)" because the class sizes are huge and the technology used is outdated. Not only do they need to look at transportation funding, but other areas as well.

I was also amazed at how it just collapsed so suddenly.
I don't know the 1st thing about engineering, but you would think that it would bend and buckle and give at least a few minutes warning that it was going down.
What a horrible tragedy.
Watching the rescuers, and hearing the stories of those involved, makes me very proud to be from Minnesota.

[Can't Never Tried]

So it's going to cost $15 million to remove the debris from the site, I heard it will take several weeks....have I lost my sense of what things cost or what?
Estimating that it took one month working 24/7 around the clock that's $20,161.00/hr granted that covers, cranes, barges, workers, fuel, etc.. it just seems high to me..how many small businesses do $15 mil a month??

Read the last paragragh they do $30 Mil a year and now this?
http://www.truckertrucker.com/Trucking-Jobs/4759.html

Just like to get others opinions on this.

[Govs93]

So it's going to cost $15 million to remove the debris from the site, I heard it will take several weeks....have I lost my sense of what things cost or what?
Estimating that it took one month working 24/7 around the clock that's $20,161.00/hr granted that covers, cranes, barges, workers, fuel, etc.. it just seems high to me..how many small businesses do $15 mil a month??

Read the last paragragh they do $30 Mil a year and now this?
http://www.truckertrucker.com/Trucking-Jobs/4759.html

Just like to get others opinions on this.

I have a feeling insurance is a big factor in that tally as well.

[Can't Never Tried]

So it's going to cost $15 million to remove the debris from the site, I heard it will take several weeks....have I lost my sense of what things cost or what?
Estimating that it took one month working 24/7 around the clock that's $20,161.00/hr granted that covers, cranes, barges, workers, fuel, etc.. it just seems high to me..how many small businesses do $15 mil a month??

Read the last paragragh they do $30 Mil a year and now this?
http://www.truckertrucker.com/Trucking-Jobs/4759.html

Just like to get others opinions on this.

I have a feeling insurance is a big factor in that tally as well.

Good point anyone here know what it cost for Ins. for a project like this?

[PuxRinmyblood]

One also wonders what the costs of disposing of all of the rubble is, and how far the disposal companies would have to haul it. I'd think those costs would add up pretty quick. 15 Mil is still a lot though....

[HShockeywatcher]

One thing I'm really curious about:
After 9-11 there were dosers and everything in there right away. Bush said publicly that he's going to help financial and with man power so this gets done as fast as possible. He's the Commander in Chief, why don't we see huge helicopters flying picking up the big rocks and everything? If he really wanted to help wouldn't it be getting done so much faster than it has?

[PanthersIn2011]

In the days following 9-11, there was still some glimmer of hope that people were alive but buried in the rubble and hence there was a certain sense of urgency to dig. There is, sadly, no such hope here.

Also the NTSB has said several times that they are treating this like a crime scene. They are still hoping to find some important clues in the tangle of steel and concrete. They don't want to jump in and start dismantling the site just yet. Over the weekend, I believe they OK'd the removal of the vehicles that are still on top of the structure.

Even if the site were cleaned up today, there is a lot to do before re-construction could begin. I don't think they even have the start of a design yet (not to mention construction bids, environmental impact studies, blah blah blah). How long the cleanup takes will probably be irrelevant to the overall schedule.

This is going to be measured in years, not weeks!

[tomASS]

In the days following 9-11, there was still some glimmer of hope that people were alive but buried in the rubble and hence there was a certain sense of urgency to dig. There is, sadly, no such hope here.

Also the NTSB has said several times that they are treating this like a crime scene. They are still hoping to find some important clues in the tangle of steel and concrete. They don't want to jump in and start dismantling the site just yet. Over the weekend, I believe they OK'd the removal of the vehicles that are still on top of the structure.

Even if the site were cleaned up today, there is a lot to do before re-construction could begin. I don't think they even have the start of a design yet (not to mention construction bids, environmental impact studies, blah blah blah). How long the cleanup takes will probably be irrelevant to the overall schedule.

This is going to be measured in years, not weeks!

good points - panther.

There is already posturing and finger pointing regarding fault- the only finger pointing that should take place is, we the people, pointing at all of government saying you didn't do one of your most fundemental responsiblities and that is the building and up keep of the country's and state's infrastructure. Party affiliation is meaningless, government failed us completely in this case.

[Govs93]

In the days following 9-11, there was still some glimmer of hope that people were alive but buried in the rubble and hence there was a certain sense of urgency to dig. There is, sadly, no such hope here.

Also the NTSB has said several times that they are treating this like a crime scene. They are still hoping to find some important clues in the tangle of steel and concrete. They don't want to jump in and start dismantling the site just yet. Over the weekend, I believe they OK'd the removal of the vehicles that are still on top of the structure.

Even if the site were cleaned up today, there is a lot to do before re-construction could begin. I don't think they even have the start of a design yet (not to mention construction bids, environmental impact studies, blah blah blah). How long the cleanup takes will probably be irrelevant to the overall schedule.

This is going to be measured in years, not weeks!

good points - panther.

There is already posturing and finger pointing regarding fault- the only finger pointing that should take place is, we the people, pointing at all of government saying you didn't do one of your most fundemental responsiblities and that is the building and up keep of the country's and state's infrastructure. Party affiliation is meaningless, government failed us completely in this case.

I'm on the fence about this. I think it's clear that all levels of government have neglected basic infrastructure all over the state (and if you go road trippin' you'll notice all over the country), but there is a finite pool of resources to tap into. You do what you can, but if they had allocated funding to fix 35W at the expense of 94 (as an example... they haven't done this to my knowledge), who's to say that bridge is in a state of disrepair enough so that it drops into the St. Croix? I just don't think it's possible to catch everything.

Hopefully this will - at the very least - serve as a wakeup call for them to get their their asses moving and get the funds that are available for projects like this moving out to the departments that need them so they can be done quickly without the partisan b.s.

Unfortunately, I don't think that will happen. Come January when the legislature convenes, it'll be the S.O.S., only this time both sides of the aisle pointing fingers at the other about how they were at fault for what happened to 35W.