Crazy Pills
Moderators: Mitch Hawker, east hockey, karl(east)
If your looking to build high school girls hockey then you need to have 16 teams for both A and AA. It would only add 1 day to there tournament yet it would give the girls some much needed exposure and if you really want to increase interest have about 50 teams (not the schools but the teams) in the state produce 2 or 3 minute video's of the kids doing what they love, playing hockey, make them some huge human interest pieces, not just the propaganda the schools put out but really show the kids.....people will watch if the care about the people playing and right now only the parents and friends care because the rest of the people don't know the people taking part.
If you’ll all excuse me, I’m going to rant. We’ve been seeing all over this forum people complaining because this or that section has too many good teams and it’s a shame that they all can’t meet in the state tournament. This is the same kind of wrongheaded PC thinking that has gotten us 6 (count ‘em, six) classes in football and 4 levels in basketball and 3 in baseball and worst of all, 2 in hockey until nobody knows two days later who the heck won what.
With utmost respect to GHS and others who have made girl’s hockey a success to this point in time, I’ll offer my take on the real charm of Minnesota HS hockey. We’re into the Section tournaments now. We’re talking about the best hockey of the year, in hot, crowded arenas between teams and schools and towns and fans who know each other intimately. The state tournament is played in a large antiseptic palace and is basically, well, antiseptic. (But it’s on channel 45!)
I’ll use boys’ hockey as an example. By far, the best hockey of the year is played in the section tournaments to get to the state tournament. For years I’ve been attending all the games at the State Fair Coliseum, which hosts the semi-finals and finals for sections 3A, 2AA, 3AA, and 4AA. Last year we got to see the St.Thomas juggernaut in 3A. In Section 2AA we get a final between Cretin, Roseville (they’ve been moved to 3AA now
) or Hastings—all nicknamed the Raiders and they don’t like each other. One side will start the ‘Let’s go Raiders’ chant, then the other side joins in and tries to yell louder until the whole place rocks. These three also battle it out in the baseball sectionals year after year. Then in 4AA we get semis and a final with Anoka, Elk River, or Blaine, all conference foes from the NW Suburban, all who know each other well and live amongst each other. A strong Armstrong or Maple Grove or Wayzata team is thrown in the mix most years. The featured game is on Saturday night—the 3AA final. This game always involves two of these three--White Bear, Centennial and Hill-Murray. You can have your Super Bowl. The 3AA final is, in my world, the best game of the year, in any sport at any level, professional or amateur. And I have absolutely no connection to any of these three schools!
Last year it was Hill-Murray vs White Bear. The coliseum officially holds 5,250 guests. There were probably 5,700 in attendance, all sweating, and the Fire Marshal was running around agitated. The student sections began chanting and taunting back and forth as soon as the previous game ended, a half-hour before game-time, and continued until the final goal. (Everyone’s favorite attraction is the stuffed polar bear in a noose). These are kids who grew up together, played against and with each other all their lives, who live down the street from each other and hang out at the same pizza places. Their parents might be friends. Some have siblings at the other school. The fans (the best anywhere, IMO) know and respect, if not admire, each other. The game went back and forth until HM won 5-4 in the second overtime. At some point during the 3rd period, I screamed to my buddy (there’s no other way to be heard in the Coliseum during the 3AA Championship) that I thought this was the best sporting event in the state of Minnesota for the entire year. Grizzled hockey fans sitting around us nodded in agreement as if, you idiot, that was obvious. My young son and daughter knew they were seeing something special, without having to say a thing. As we left the arena after the game, my buddy and I asked each other if we were going to go to any State Tournament games—and we both decided at the same time: ‘Nah’.
I’d bet anything that if someone made a list of the top ten best hockey games in Minnesota boys’ HS hockey history, 9 of them would be section finals, either Warroad-Roseau or Grand Rapids-International Falls or Hibbing-Duluth East or Edina-Jefferson or Johnson-SSP or Moorhead-Bemidji or of course, White Bear-Hill Murray. This is what it’s all about. Yes, the State Tournament is pomp and ceremony and TV and hair-dos and staying in a hotel in St. Paul and it’s nice. I understand why western suburban types would be attracted to that. Of the tens of thousands of kids who have played HS hockey, that experience is realized for only a few. But all of those tens of thousands had a memorable tough game in the sections, or remember playing especially well against the eventual section champ or remember watching their buddies from the town next door in the section finals after their own team was eliminated.
I attended 2 sessions at the Xcel Center for the girls state tournament last year. It was very comfortable—cappuccino, nice cushy seats, plenty of room (my coat on one cushioned seat, my popcorn on another, my butt in another, my daughter in another, her stuff on another). But by far the most memorable and exciting girls’ HOCKEY GAME I attended last year was the Section 2AA final, crammed onto a hard aluminum bench seat, sweating and elbowing and yelling with complete strangers, living and dying during each shift of the 3rd period and overtime at IGH Veteran’s Memorial.
Now Section 6AA in girls’ hockey is loaded for bear. It’s going to be the best section tournament in the state, boys or girls. And people are whining about it! You should be calling the relatives and bragging to your friends and co-workers about how great it’s going to be and camp out at Parade Ice Garden for the next 10 days and tell your daughters what a special moment this is for them instead of whining about how many precious talented girls aren’t going to get to be on Channel 45! My god, how great would a Saturday night final between EP and Edina be, packed into Parade hot and sweaty with raucous student sections and bands. (Are some of you out there concerned because it’ll be too warm for your mink coats? Or don’t these games mean much because your massage therapist won’t see your daughter on TV?) I hope that those who are complaining are new to the game and will eventually learn what it’s all about and leave well enough alone (otherwise we’ll end up with what, 5 or 6 classes in girls’ hockey?), but I’ve noticed some ‘grizzled veterans’ here who have also voiced concerns about ‘getting more deserving teams’ to the state tournament. No. The reason the boys’ tournament has been one of the premier tournaments in the country in any sport is because the journey that gets you there is not always perfect, but it’s always magical. Tell you what—if they just leave the section tournaments as they are, I wouldn’t care if they held the state tournament at all. Or better yet, move it to the Coliseum.
With utmost respect to GHS and others who have made girl’s hockey a success to this point in time, I’ll offer my take on the real charm of Minnesota HS hockey. We’re into the Section tournaments now. We’re talking about the best hockey of the year, in hot, crowded arenas between teams and schools and towns and fans who know each other intimately. The state tournament is played in a large antiseptic palace and is basically, well, antiseptic. (But it’s on channel 45!)
I’ll use boys’ hockey as an example. By far, the best hockey of the year is played in the section tournaments to get to the state tournament. For years I’ve been attending all the games at the State Fair Coliseum, which hosts the semi-finals and finals for sections 3A, 2AA, 3AA, and 4AA. Last year we got to see the St.Thomas juggernaut in 3A. In Section 2AA we get a final between Cretin, Roseville (they’ve been moved to 3AA now
) or Hastings—all nicknamed the Raiders and they don’t like each other. One side will start the ‘Let’s go Raiders’ chant, then the other side joins in and tries to yell louder until the whole place rocks. These three also battle it out in the baseball sectionals year after year. Then in 4AA we get semis and a final with Anoka, Elk River, or Blaine, all conference foes from the NW Suburban, all who know each other well and live amongst each other. A strong Armstrong or Maple Grove or Wayzata team is thrown in the mix most years. The featured game is on Saturday night—the 3AA final. This game always involves two of these three--White Bear, Centennial and Hill-Murray. You can have your Super Bowl. The 3AA final is, in my world, the best game of the year, in any sport at any level, professional or amateur. And I have absolutely no connection to any of these three schools! Last year it was Hill-Murray vs White Bear. The coliseum officially holds 5,250 guests. There were probably 5,700 in attendance, all sweating, and the Fire Marshal was running around agitated. The student sections began chanting and taunting back and forth as soon as the previous game ended, a half-hour before game-time, and continued until the final goal. (Everyone’s favorite attraction is the stuffed polar bear in a noose). These are kids who grew up together, played against and with each other all their lives, who live down the street from each other and hang out at the same pizza places. Their parents might be friends. Some have siblings at the other school. The fans (the best anywhere, IMO) know and respect, if not admire, each other. The game went back and forth until HM won 5-4 in the second overtime. At some point during the 3rd period, I screamed to my buddy (there’s no other way to be heard in the Coliseum during the 3AA Championship) that I thought this was the best sporting event in the state of Minnesota for the entire year. Grizzled hockey fans sitting around us nodded in agreement as if, you idiot, that was obvious. My young son and daughter knew they were seeing something special, without having to say a thing. As we left the arena after the game, my buddy and I asked each other if we were going to go to any State Tournament games—and we both decided at the same time: ‘Nah’.
I’d bet anything that if someone made a list of the top ten best hockey games in Minnesota boys’ HS hockey history, 9 of them would be section finals, either Warroad-Roseau or Grand Rapids-International Falls or Hibbing-Duluth East or Edina-Jefferson or Johnson-SSP or Moorhead-Bemidji or of course, White Bear-Hill Murray. This is what it’s all about. Yes, the State Tournament is pomp and ceremony and TV and hair-dos and staying in a hotel in St. Paul and it’s nice. I understand why western suburban types would be attracted to that. Of the tens of thousands of kids who have played HS hockey, that experience is realized for only a few. But all of those tens of thousands had a memorable tough game in the sections, or remember playing especially well against the eventual section champ or remember watching their buddies from the town next door in the section finals after their own team was eliminated.
I attended 2 sessions at the Xcel Center for the girls state tournament last year. It was very comfortable—cappuccino, nice cushy seats, plenty of room (my coat on one cushioned seat, my popcorn on another, my butt in another, my daughter in another, her stuff on another). But by far the most memorable and exciting girls’ HOCKEY GAME I attended last year was the Section 2AA final, crammed onto a hard aluminum bench seat, sweating and elbowing and yelling with complete strangers, living and dying during each shift of the 3rd period and overtime at IGH Veteran’s Memorial.
Now Section 6AA in girls’ hockey is loaded for bear. It’s going to be the best section tournament in the state, boys or girls. And people are whining about it! You should be calling the relatives and bragging to your friends and co-workers about how great it’s going to be and camp out at Parade Ice Garden for the next 10 days and tell your daughters what a special moment this is for them instead of whining about how many precious talented girls aren’t going to get to be on Channel 45! My god, how great would a Saturday night final between EP and Edina be, packed into Parade hot and sweaty with raucous student sections and bands. (Are some of you out there concerned because it’ll be too warm for your mink coats? Or don’t these games mean much because your massage therapist won’t see your daughter on TV?) I hope that those who are complaining are new to the game and will eventually learn what it’s all about and leave well enough alone (otherwise we’ll end up with what, 5 or 6 classes in girls’ hockey?), but I’ve noticed some ‘grizzled veterans’ here who have also voiced concerns about ‘getting more deserving teams’ to the state tournament. No. The reason the boys’ tournament has been one of the premier tournaments in the country in any sport is because the journey that gets you there is not always perfect, but it’s always magical. Tell you what—if they just leave the section tournaments as they are, I wouldn’t care if they held the state tournament at all. Or better yet, move it to the Coliseum.
Are the Girls on TV!Bensonmum wrote:If you’ll all excuse me, I’m going to rant. This is what it’s all about. Yes, the State Tournament is pomp and ceremony and TV and hair-dos and staying in a hotel in St. Paul and it’s nice. instead of whining about how many precious talented girls aren’t going to get to be on Channel 45! (Are some of you out there concerned because it’ll be too warm for your mink coats? Or don’t these games mean much because your massage therapist won’t see your daughter on TV?) .
-
MNHockeyFan
- Posts: 7260
- Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:28 pm
ghs, I really like your idea - it's about as equitable as one could ever hope for, plus it's self-adjusting and therefore keeps the all the politics and meddling by coaches to a bare minimum. For this reason alone it will never fly!ghshockeyfan wrote:I'd like to see 2 N MN AA Sections (7AA & 8AA as is), 1 S MN AA section (1AA as is), and 5 metro AA sections seeded by KRACH so that each of the top 5 metro teams get their own section and seed the rest of the teams in a similar fashion.
So - Section 1, 7, & 8 stay as-is.
And, Sections 2-6 get seeded by KRACH:
SECTION 2M:
1 1AA Eden Prairie 2696.784
17 15AA Irondale 102.571
18 11AA Eagan 100.836
38 White Bear Lake 29.406
39 Rob. Armstrong 27.726
55 Apple Valley 13.806
58 Woodbury 12.991
***8th slot a playin between bottom 4 teams in AA:
91 Rob. Cooper 2.095
94 Rogers 1.814
103 Tartan 0.458
107 Bloom. Kennedy 0.300
SECTION 3M:
2 2AA Edina 685.388
13 10AA Coon Rapids 145.567
19 12AA Blaine 98.995
34 Eastview 36.874
40 Anoka 26.993
54 Henry Sibley 14.471
62 Chaska 11.112
86 Rosemount 2.922
SECTION 4M:
3 4AA Benilde-St. Margarets 396.972
12 9AA Stillwater 150.283
20 16AA Cretin-Derham Hall 90.127
30 Hastings 46.955
41 Minnetonka 26.131
51 Maple Grove 15.857
65 Bloom. Jefferson 9.908
85 Minneapolis Novas 2.957
SECTION 5M:
4 5AA Academy of Holy Angels 387.917
8 8AA Wayzata 163.716
22 18AA Hopkins 79.938
26 20AA North Metro Stars 60.400
43 Spring Lake Park/St. Anthony 23.810
50 Prior Lake 17.328
68 Andover 8.184
81 St. Paul Blades 4.157
SECTION 6M:
6 3AA Roseville 221.287 4
7 7AA Centennial 192.560 17
24 Hill-Murray Pioneers 70.455 20
25 17AA Burnsville 67.440 28
44 Mounds View 19.105 14
47 North St. Paul Polars 18.466 39
78 Park of Cottage Grove 4.362 11
80 Champlin Park 4.202 23
Hill Murray had 7 girls on there JV this year, most teams have between 10 and 15 girls on there JV teams, Very few schools need to cut players from the girls hockey programs and intrest in high school girls Hockey has flatlined in most area's (although some are doing extreamly well) and Bensonmum writes about how much fun it is to watch sectional games for the boys???? the Boys are on a whole different plateau than the girls when it comes to interest. If were going to build interest in girls hockey then we should build the whole situation, we should be able to field full teams instead of having to drop down a line to JV so they can play. I'll admit we shouldn't have to sell the great sport of hockey to anyone but if your going to build interest you should do it by involving as many people as possible to start with and then hyping the product until we gain the level of interest needed to sustain healthy products throughout the state.
[quote="dumpandchase"]s we go to a Metro and an Outstate Tournament. That way the Metro can get 8 teams to the tournament. And outstate teams could just play the game without worrying about all the things happening in the metro.[/quote]
I vote for the girls off-season training we pull all the teams together and build a big moat around the metro area, so we completely keep metro kids and outstate kids from every seeing or having to deal with each other!
I vote for the girls off-season training we pull all the teams together and build a big moat around the metro area, so we completely keep metro kids and outstate kids from every seeing or having to deal with each other!
-
ghshockeyfan
- Posts: 6132
- Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2003 2:33 pm
- Location: Inver Grove Heights, MN
- Contact:
I would agree with xk about rivalry. I also think we need to consider what the goal is of the state tourneys (A & AA).xk1 wrote:The GHS plan is interesting if the goal is to get the 5 best metro teams to State but in looking at the seeded sections I think the sections would be boring and without much rivalry. Also it would be impossible to ever have section rivalry as they would be different every year.
I think the goal is some mix of:
1) Give non-typical hockey-power schools a chance to compete (hence classes)
2) Give geographic representation from across the state (hence geographic based sections)
Beyond that???
Last edited by ghshockeyfan on Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
MNHockeyFan
- Posts: 7260
- Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:28 pm
Maybe, but can you build much in the way of rivalries in sections if you meet the other teams only occasionally as it is? Just to take the nine teams in Section 6AA as an example, the only teams BSM played were Edina and Wayzata (once each). But they played a total of 4 games against Section 3AA teams; 3 against 4AA teams; and 6 against 7AA teams. They are pretty spread out as they are now.xk1 wrote:The GHS plan is interesting if the goal is to get the 5 best metro teams to State but in looking at the seeded sections I think the sections would be boring and without much rivalry. Also it would be impossible to ever have section rivalry as they would be different every year.
-
ghshockeyfan
- Posts: 6132
- Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2003 2:33 pm
- Location: Inver Grove Heights, MN
- Contact:
FWIW, some of the Section 6 teams may NOT want to play each other. There may be some animosity about the source of the players on some of the public & private teams? None of this bothers me, but it does make for an interesting section situaiton to say the least if there's any truth to that...MNHockeyFan wrote:Maybe, but can you build much in the way of rivalries in sections if you meet the other teams only occasionally as it is? Just to take the nine teams in Section 6AA as an example, the only teams BSM played were Edina and Wayzata (once each). But they played a total of 4 games against Section 3AA teams; 3 against 4AA teams; and 6 against 7AA teams. They are pretty spread out as they are now.xk1 wrote:The GHS plan is interesting if the goal is to get the 5 best metro teams to State but in looking at the seeded sections I think the sections would be boring and without much rivalry. Also it would be impossible to ever have section rivalry as they would be different every year.
-
MNHockeyFan
- Posts: 7260
- Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:28 pm
Article from today's Sun newspapers on Section 6AA:
Section 6AA
There is, arguably, no tougher section than Section 6AA, whose tournament begins Feb. 7.
Four of the top 10 teams in Class AA will battle for the trip to state, and a fifth - No. 18 Hopkins - could also have a say in things.
Eden Prairie is the No. 1 seed in the section. The Eagles haven't lost since the 2004 section final to Wayzata.
But, unlike last year when EP dominated the entire state en route to the 2005 Class AA state title, the Eagles have been tested.
They have survived and head into the postseason with a perfect 25-0 mark does testify to their depth, but an upset in section play isn't out of the question.
No. 8AA Wayzata almost ended the streak just two weeks ago - Eden Prairie won 1-0 - and that gives plenty of hope to at least half of the field.
"I think the section is a lot more balanced this year," Hopkins Head Coach Vin Paolucci said recently. "It is going to be an unbelievable tournament."
The section seeds should look something like this: Eden Prairie will be No. 1. Edina, at 21-1-3, No. 2 and Benilde-St. Margaret's No. 3 with its 21-3-1 record.
Seeds No. 4 and 5 get cloudy. Wayzata and Hopkins enter tournament play with similar records. The Royals beat and tied the Trojans, but Wayzata has the higher ranking and that win over Edina could give them a legitimate argument for the fourth seed.
However it plays out, the two teams will likely have a chance at deciding it on the ice, as seeds four and five are to play Saturday at Parade Ice Garden.
Minnetonka should get the sixth seed. The Skippers, at 10-12-3, have a better record than both Chaska and Bloomington Jefferson, and they beat Prior Lake earlier in the year.
Prior Lake will get the seventh seed over both Jefferson and Chaska. That means Jefferson and Chaska will be seeds eight and nine, which will pit the two teams against each other Feb. 7 - they split their two games this year - for the right to play Eden Prairie Saturday.
"It is feels like an honor to be apart of the section, because it is like a mini-state tournament," Minnetonka Head Coach Eric Johnson said two weeks ago. "It is going to be tough for anybody to get out of it, and I don't think there is any question that whoever does win it will be the favorite to win the state championship."
Comments on Sections 5A and 4A are also mentioned in the full article:
http://www.mnsun.com/articles/2007/02/0 ... ayoffs.txt
Section 6AA
There is, arguably, no tougher section than Section 6AA, whose tournament begins Feb. 7.
Four of the top 10 teams in Class AA will battle for the trip to state, and a fifth - No. 18 Hopkins - could also have a say in things.
Eden Prairie is the No. 1 seed in the section. The Eagles haven't lost since the 2004 section final to Wayzata.
But, unlike last year when EP dominated the entire state en route to the 2005 Class AA state title, the Eagles have been tested.
They have survived and head into the postseason with a perfect 25-0 mark does testify to their depth, but an upset in section play isn't out of the question.
No. 8AA Wayzata almost ended the streak just two weeks ago - Eden Prairie won 1-0 - and that gives plenty of hope to at least half of the field.
"I think the section is a lot more balanced this year," Hopkins Head Coach Vin Paolucci said recently. "It is going to be an unbelievable tournament."
The section seeds should look something like this: Eden Prairie will be No. 1. Edina, at 21-1-3, No. 2 and Benilde-St. Margaret's No. 3 with its 21-3-1 record.
Seeds No. 4 and 5 get cloudy. Wayzata and Hopkins enter tournament play with similar records. The Royals beat and tied the Trojans, but Wayzata has the higher ranking and that win over Edina could give them a legitimate argument for the fourth seed.
However it plays out, the two teams will likely have a chance at deciding it on the ice, as seeds four and five are to play Saturday at Parade Ice Garden.
Minnetonka should get the sixth seed. The Skippers, at 10-12-3, have a better record than both Chaska and Bloomington Jefferson, and they beat Prior Lake earlier in the year.
Prior Lake will get the seventh seed over both Jefferson and Chaska. That means Jefferson and Chaska will be seeds eight and nine, which will pit the two teams against each other Feb. 7 - they split their two games this year - for the right to play Eden Prairie Saturday.
"It is feels like an honor to be apart of the section, because it is like a mini-state tournament," Minnetonka Head Coach Eric Johnson said two weeks ago. "It is going to be tough for anybody to get out of it, and I don't think there is any question that whoever does win it will be the favorite to win the state championship."
Comments on Sections 5A and 4A are also mentioned in the full article:
http://www.mnsun.com/articles/2007/02/0 ... ayoffs.txt
-
unbelievable
- Posts: 67
- Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:53 pm
Bensonmum,
You are soooo right!!! Boys high school hockey does not get any better than the section 3AA playoffs. The rivalries... neighbors vs. neighbors... friends vs. friends... what an awesome and intense event to experience. If you have not had a chance to be a part of this annual rite, please try to get a ticket to the Colesium as you won't be disappointed.
As for the state tournament (for boys or girls), there is no perfect model. Dynasties come and go. Perennial powers ebb and flow. But the rivalries live on. If you want to watch the top ranked teams play each other go to the holiday tournaments or their regular season match ups against each other. Our state tournament may not be perfect... but it is the best in the nation, bar none.
You are soooo right!!! Boys high school hockey does not get any better than the section 3AA playoffs. The rivalries... neighbors vs. neighbors... friends vs. friends... what an awesome and intense event to experience. If you have not had a chance to be a part of this annual rite, please try to get a ticket to the Colesium as you won't be disappointed.
As for the state tournament (for boys or girls), there is no perfect model. Dynasties come and go. Perennial powers ebb and flow. But the rivalries live on. If you want to watch the top ranked teams play each other go to the holiday tournaments or their regular season match ups against each other. Our state tournament may not be perfect... but it is the best in the nation, bar none.
**As for the state tournament (for boys or girls), there is no perfect model. Dynasties come and go. Perennial powers ebb and flow. But the rivalries live on. If you want to watch the top ranked teams play each other go to the holiday tournaments or their regular season match ups against each other. Our state tournament may not be perfect... but it is the best in the nation, bar none.**
Thank You, Unbelievable!
Why change something thats no perfect with something that can never be. Take Pride in what you have accomplished, whether it be scoring your first HS Point or playing JV as a Senior. But, remember " These 8-Teams that make it to the State Tourney are there to represent School, Region and most important - They represent and showcase hockey for Every Player who Participated in that Sport during the year, from every Region of the State.
_________
A quote from an old Dallas Cowboy RB on the Hyph and Promo of the playoffs and Super bowl that year. He said " I don't know why this is such a Great Game, there going to Play it Again Next Year.
Thank You, Unbelievable!
Why change something thats no perfect with something that can never be. Take Pride in what you have accomplished, whether it be scoring your first HS Point or playing JV as a Senior. But, remember " These 8-Teams that make it to the State Tourney are there to represent School, Region and most important - They represent and showcase hockey for Every Player who Participated in that Sport during the year, from every Region of the State.
_________
A quote from an old Dallas Cowboy RB on the Hyph and Promo of the playoffs and Super bowl that year. He said " I don't know why this is such a Great Game, there going to Play it Again Next Year.
ghs wrote:
One idea I've never heard mentioned (which I don't know is legally possible) is to have Minnesota Hockey run the section and state tournaments.
GHS--you surprise me with this. This treats the Twin City metro area as a big, one-headed monster (the way Iron Rangers think of us). You know as well as anyone that there are real neighborhood rivalries all over the Twin Cities--think of Stillwater, WBL, NSP, Tartan, HM, Woodbury as one. Anoka, CR, Elk River, Champlin as another. And many more. These girls are growing up playing each other in their MN Hockey districts at the youth levels now and know each other very well by high school. Would you just scatter these with the wind accross 5 different computer generated section tournaments? Talk about ripping the heart and soul out of the section tournament process (which is often what computer logic does).... Is that how we grow the sport?I'd like to see 2 N MN AA Sections (7AA & 8AA as is), 1 S MN AA section (1AA as is), and 5 metro AA sections seeded by KRACH so that each of the top 5 metro teams get their own section and seed the rest of the teams in a similar fashion.
One idea I've never heard mentioned (which I don't know is legally possible) is to have Minnesota Hockey run the section and state tournaments.
-
MNHockeyFan
- Posts: 7260
- Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:28 pm
When it comes to sections, all this rivalry talk is way over-rated! These "rival teams" can play each other all they want during the regular season, but the playoffs should be organized with the state tournament in mind, not who's going to play who because they happen to be rivals.
And so what if the girls played against each other in youth hockey? Does the NCAA organize their regional playoffs based on who played against who in high school? Or which teams are "rivals" with one another? Last year in men's hockey, Minnesota got ousted by Holy Cross, not exactly a big rival.
Anyway, like ghs suggested, keep the outstate schools grouped as much as possible by geographic location, to help minimize travel costs, and to ensure that different parts of the state are represented at the tournament. But when it comes to the metro area sections, achieving some measure of balance should be an objective - not the ONLY one, but it should at least be an important consideration.
Remember that if you group all the rivals in the sections, you'll see very few rival teams ever getting to play one another in the state tournament.
And so what if the girls played against each other in youth hockey? Does the NCAA organize their regional playoffs based on who played against who in high school? Or which teams are "rivals" with one another? Last year in men's hockey, Minnesota got ousted by Holy Cross, not exactly a big rival.
Anyway, like ghs suggested, keep the outstate schools grouped as much as possible by geographic location, to help minimize travel costs, and to ensure that different parts of the state are represented at the tournament. But when it comes to the metro area sections, achieving some measure of balance should be an objective - not the ONLY one, but it should at least be an important consideration.
Remember that if you group all the rivals in the sections, you'll see very few rival teams ever getting to play one another in the state tournament.
-
MNHockeyFan
- Posts: 7260
- Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:28 pm
-
ghshockeyfan
- Posts: 6132
- Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2003 2:33 pm
- Location: Inver Grove Heights, MN
- Contact:
I guess I still want to know what the goals are. From there, you then could MAYBE come up with a system that better achieves those goals. Often technology improves our lives. But, in some respects, can also leave us longing for the time before its changes.Bensonmum wrote:ghs wrote:GHS--you surprise me with this. This treats the Twin City metro area as a big, one-headed monster (the way Iron Rangers think of us). You know as well as anyone that there are real neighborhood rivalries all over the Twin Cities--think of Stillwater, WBL, NSP, Tartan, HM, Woodbury as one. Anoka, CR, Elk River, Champlin as another. And many more. These girls are growing up playing each other in their MN Hockey districts at the youth levels now and know each other very well by high school. Would you just scatter these with the wind accross 5 different computer generated section tournaments? Talk about ripping the heart and soul out of the section tournament process (which is often what computer logic does).... Is that how we grow the sport?I'd like to see 2 N MN AA Sections (7AA & 8AA as is), 1 S MN AA section (1AA as is), and 5 metro AA sections seeded by KRACH so that each of the top 5 metro teams get their own section and seed the rest of the teams in a similar fashion.
One idea I've never heard mentioned (which I don't know is legally possible) is to have Minnesota Hockey run the section and state tournaments.
Are we certain that it wouldn't be better for the top teams to be given the best chance to advance to state? Would such a state tourney create more exposure for the sport due to increased interest vs. many of the best teams eliminated in sections that belong at state?
I guess I don't have the answers to these questions, but I have a means that may provide a beter solution if the goal is to indeed seed and give the top metro teams a shot at state while maintaining the spots for 2 NMN and 1 SMN sections in AA.
Please note, that if I had my way, we'd go to a sweet 16 or old 8-team one-class system in boys and girls. BUT - I understand the goal of classes and also what tiers were initially - to give non-traditional teams a shot at growing the sport in their areas by giving more opportunities at state... I also understand the notion of geographic representation, but if we're going to play games with 2-tourneys, someitmes goofy section alignments that make little geographic sense, etc. then I think I'd prefer a computer seeded tourney to a computer generated & then board approved section setup with classes.
I guess if I can't have the old 8-team one-tourney setup then I'd take a sweet 16 statewide w/o classes. Next would be a tiers setup as it accomplishes beter what I believe the true goal of classes is and eliminates teams from playing at A that belong at AA (many of these teams opt up anyway - but that process is flawed with no mechanism to force this nor is it fair to force a team to do so for 4-years at a time when no one can see that far into the future!)...
-
hocsocstud
- Posts: 57
- Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 8:24 pm
people need to quit complaining about the all the good Metro teams not getting a shot. It is the same in most every section, there are a few good teams, and they battle it out to get a shot at state. Whether the teams in those sections are better or worse than the metro teams it shouldn't matter. Everyone is trying to a acheive a common goal, that is to make it to the STATE. If your team can't get there because their are better teams in the section, suck it up because everyone is goin through the same thing.
-
Twinnesota
- Posts: 379
- Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 1:48 pm
- Location: Faribault
Re: Crazy Pills
Not sure if we enjoy our poor grade of hockey more than others or not...MNHockeyFan wrote:Probably not, at least not the same stuff as those crazy Section 1A fans seem to be on...Oilers08 wrote:Am I taking crazy pills or what?!
But we sure have fun !!
Just humor us outstate "hicks" and let us have a good time, will ya?
Aren't you people enjoying the game?
T
ghs wrote:
But if the goal is to provide the most exciting hockey for 3 weeks for the greatest number of players and fans, I think it makes sense to keep the traditional (geographical) rivalries together in sections. The most excitement (for me) last year was provided by section semis and finals in smaller nearly full arenas. 10 times more people attend all the aggregate section games than make the trip to the state tournement. Watching games at a 1/4 full XCel Center did nothing to create excitement for me. And it looked almost sad on TV. But I truly enjoyed the section games I attended at Vet's and Aldrich.
I guess those of you who are coaches and MSHSL members will be the ones to decide which direction this heads, and it looks like you hold the state tournament way high above and beyond the section tourneys, which in this case are just vehicles to get to the Holy Grail. Let's hope that's the best way to grow the game.
I guess you're right about this. What is the goal of the section tournaments and state tournament? Is it to attract new fans and grow the youth levels from the ground up? If that's the case then I suppose a grand state tournament that showcases the sport on TV would best be made up of the top (best record? most visible? classiest? highest KRACH rating? most talented?) 8 teams in each Class. Thus the KRACH seedings to make this more easily attainable.I guess I still want to know what the goals are. From there, you then could MAYBE come up with a system that better achieves those goals.
But if the goal is to provide the most exciting hockey for 3 weeks for the greatest number of players and fans, I think it makes sense to keep the traditional (geographical) rivalries together in sections. The most excitement (for me) last year was provided by section semis and finals in smaller nearly full arenas. 10 times more people attend all the aggregate section games than make the trip to the state tournement. Watching games at a 1/4 full XCel Center did nothing to create excitement for me. And it looked almost sad on TV. But I truly enjoyed the section games I attended at Vet's and Aldrich.
I guess those of you who are coaches and MSHSL members will be the ones to decide which direction this heads, and it looks like you hold the state tournament way high above and beyond the section tourneys, which in this case are just vehicles to get to the Holy Grail. Let's hope that's the best way to grow the game.
I don't think there is a goal, that is, nobody sat down and said, if we do this, that will happen. State tournaments were created in simpler times.
The problem you section 6AA folks are unhappy about used to be solved by 2 "backdoor" sections, if you had a stacked section the loser of the section championship still had a way to qualify.
I think TV was one of the big factors in the growth of the tournament and for hockey in general, the problem is, it takes money to do TV and there simply isn't a large enough audience to sell girls hockey, even at the collegiate level where we have had the best program in the country over the years. FSN is doing a good job promoting boys HS hockey right now but you'll notice they didn't do any girls games (or did they have that outdoor game on hockey day?). To promote sports they need to get on TV and to get on TV you need someone to pay for the commercials.
The girls sport has simply not grown enough and if you look at the numbers, it's at best stagnant and more likely declining overall. I believe the numbers drop is true on the boys side as well. It's easy to blame it on the costs but there are more affluent people now than there have ever been. Still bringing down the cost of entry would certainly help. We also need more ice sheets and that costs money (maybe not in Blaine as they seem to grow ice like bunnies).
The problem you section 6AA folks are unhappy about used to be solved by 2 "backdoor" sections, if you had a stacked section the loser of the section championship still had a way to qualify.
I think TV was one of the big factors in the growth of the tournament and for hockey in general, the problem is, it takes money to do TV and there simply isn't a large enough audience to sell girls hockey, even at the collegiate level where we have had the best program in the country over the years. FSN is doing a good job promoting boys HS hockey right now but you'll notice they didn't do any girls games (or did they have that outdoor game on hockey day?). To promote sports they need to get on TV and to get on TV you need someone to pay for the commercials.
The girls sport has simply not grown enough and if you look at the numbers, it's at best stagnant and more likely declining overall. I believe the numbers drop is true on the boys side as well. It's easy to blame it on the costs but there are more affluent people now than there have ever been. Still bringing down the cost of entry would certainly help. We also need more ice sheets and that costs money (maybe not in Blaine as they seem to grow ice like bunnies).
-
ghshockeyfan
- Posts: 6132
- Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2003 2:33 pm
- Location: Inver Grove Heights, MN
- Contact:
I agree that we may be in decline with hockey due to its expense. Plus, as much as any sport, hockey parents have a reputation for being crazy and that doesn't help the sport. I woudl think it's more fair to say "highly invested" with all the cost, time, etc. that goes into this sport.xk1 wrote:I don't think there is a goal, that is, nobody sat down and said, if we do this, that will happen. State tournaments were created in simpler times.
The problem you section 6AA folks are unhappy about used to be solved by 2 "backdoor" sections, if you had a stacked section the loser of the section championship still had a way to qualify.
I think TV was one of the big factors in the growth of the tournament and for hockey in general, the problem is, it takes money to do TV and there simply isn't a large enough audience to sell girls hockey, even at the collegiate level where we have had the best program in the country over the years. FSN is doing a good job promoting boys HS hockey right now but you'll notice they didn't do any girls games (or did they have that outdoor game on hockey day?). To promote sports they need to get on TV and to get on TV you need someone to pay for the commercials.
The girls sport has simply not grown enough and if you look at the numbers, it's at best stagnant and more likely declining overall. I believe the numbers drop is true on the boys side as well. It's easy to blame it on the costs but there are more affluent people now than there have ever been. Still bringing down the cost of entry would certainly help. We also need more ice sheets and that costs money (maybe not in Blaine as they seem to grow ice like bunnies).
I disagree however about there being a lack of a "goal" for the State Tourneys. Some thought had to have been put into Classes vs. Tiers, etc. So, there must be a goal. But, what is it?
-
unbelievable
- Posts: 67
- Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:53 pm
GHS,ghshockeyfan wrote:
I disagree however about there being a lack of a "goal" for the State Tourneys. Some thought had to have been put into Classes vs. Tiers, etc. So, there must be a goal. But, what is it?
I concur. I believe there is a goal and IMHO, it boils down to economics. For better or worse, the goal is REVENUE. More games, more venues, more tickets, therefore more revenue. In it's simplest form, the MSHSL boys hockey tournament is nothing more than a product. A product that just happens to have a higher demand than almost all other tourneys combined. How high? Shoot, during the one class era, Hollywood stars would come to watch the crown jewel of all HS events. Name one other HS event in the country that had movie stars showing up to see what the buzz was about. It is a money making machine, a diamond mine. With such a high demand, it's very easy to replicate (via classes/tiers) to meet that demand and maximize the revenue. I'm afraid the girls tourney just came along for the ride.
Now a lot of good has come out of the 2 class tournament, for all of the other HS sports that it helps fund. I truly believe that is a good thing. Did the tournament lose some prestige by going to 2 classes? Absolutely. It was no longer an exclusive club. And there lies the very real danger of taking things too far. Flood the market and overrun demand, and the value of your product will decline quickly. Not unlike the diamond market, the supply/demand ratio for this product must be watched carefully.