Private School Trash talk thread

[Nostalgic Nerd]

The transfer rule stopped the school hopping. (For educational purposes of course)

Open enrollment for athletics is very real. Tying sports participation to residence location would eliminate the transfer rule for 99% of the students.

For instance, one can live in Eden Prairie but in the Minnetonka school boundary, yet attend Holy Family. Bussing provided to all three schools. So make your choice and all is good. But to drive an hour past 10+ schools to reach the school of your choice should not be an allowed free pass for sports.

You live in Elk River and want a military based education, have at it, but no hockey for you.

Doesn't matter. You cannot force student A from attending school B. It isn't what this country was founded on. But within the realm of the flawed system, you can try and bring some level of balance with a transfer rule, since it was clearly abused. I'd be shocked from a legal perspective if anyone would take your case, and how to instill and scrutiize it is impossible. You cannot give student A an opportunity to attend school B for educational or military reasons and then turn around say they cannot attend that same school's athletic opportunities. It doesn't matter how right you are. The system is an opportunity based, and what comes with that has been said.

[BadgerBob82]

Agreed. But I still love the joke about Hopkins Basketball team.

Starting line up

And starting at Guard, from Apple Valley Minnesota...
At the other Guard, from Stillwater Minnesota...
Starting at Center, from Gary Indiana...

[HShockeywatcher]

What does bother me about private schools is the notion that they play by the same rules as public schools. Yes, they have to abide by MSHSL rules just as public schools do, but private schools have advantages that are inherent in their very structure.

There are inherent advantages to a community school as well, as I'm sure just about everyone knows all about. I don't have first hand knowledge of it, so I won't pretend to, but I have seen it second hand in MN and around the country. Having a close knit community where people grow up together, play sports together, have systems in place in sports, and in sports are playing for more than just themselves has huge advantages to it.

1. Private schools have a unique ability to make themselves more attractive because they can raise money far beyond what taxes will pay for at public schools. This allows them to build facilities that many public schools can only dream of. In my hometown of Hibbing, I believe the last major referendum for any kind of significant upgrade to sports facilities was at least 20 years ago. To build new facilities at a public school, you need to essentially win an election (referendum). This is not the case at private schools.

Where does this money come from? You make it seem like these private schools grow money trees in their fields and can just grow fields of money for use at their disposal.
This money comes directly (mainly) from alumni and families of alumni. People who graduated from the school and were so happy with their experience as a student are now giving back to the school.
This is not impossible in public schools and does happen. The difference in facilities at many [public] schools around the country are directly from donations. There is nothing stopping the community, alumni, businesses, etc from your community, or any community for that matter, from doing exactly the same thing.

2. Private schools can offer a commodity that has a real world cash value to potential recruits. I know not all, but many players do get scholarships from private schools. Private schools have resources not available to public schools, and they can use these to offer free tuition. A public school cannot offer to waive a kid's participation fees, pay for his hockey equipment, or give anything beyond what his family's taxes have already paid for.

Making a point here will really get no where, as people on the other side think they know so much, but athletic scholarships are not given at private schools (or at least it is not common practice).
Students at private schools get need based scholarships. And again, this money doesn't grow on trees, it comes from donars.
If you really don't think things are provided to students at public schools at a similar need based basis, then your head is really in the sand. I doubt hockey pads are bought for them, but other services are provided for children who need things.

What commodity is that? Why isn't it provided it at public schools?

Why did it take so long for the MSHSL to allow private schools in? Because private schools play by different rules.

It's fine private schools have the ability to do these things, they are private enterprises, after all, and can spend their money how they like. But to suggest that a public school is on equal footing when it comes to the ability to attract players is just plain ludicrous.

You still have yet to explain what "equal footing" means.
Even if you got rid of the private schools, there are plenty of public schools not on "equal footing" with each other. Life isn't about being equal, nor are athletics ever in life.

This is what stings private school fans the most: the fact that they and everyone else knows they have advantages, and when they win a title, some of the luster is lost because of it (especially in Class A). So they compensate for this by trying to convince others that public schools are in the same situation they are, so therefore everything is equal and they should get just as much respect as a Roseau or Hermantown when they win it. And it kills them that they don't get it.

No one has said "everything is equal." You keep repeating that "everyone is saying" this and that but no one is actually saying that. There are plenty of differences between the two.

Glad you brought up Roseau...what class are they in?

It doesn't matter how or why the private schools have these advantages, what matters is that they have them.

Please explain what these advantages are you keep referring to. You have repeated over and over that they have advantages, but always in a vague sense (aside from the money thing, although you seem misinformed about it).

If you are referring to metro vs outstate, but that is not private vs public, as you seem to continue to want to make it.

It doesn't matter how or why the private schools have these advantages, what matters is that they have them.

I made the comment as a joke in another thread, but it is ultimately true, private schools give what the consumer needs/wants. Why can't/don't the public schools do the same?

Try asking people why they leave public school communities and actually listen to them. Instead of telling people who chose private schools over public schools that t they are wrong, actually listen to them. I'm curious what response you'll get.

Ultimately, what continues to blow my mind is that private schools are blamed for kids leaving public schools and not the public schools for being somewhere people want to leave.
This is not analogous to [almost] anywhere else in life. Whether it comes to jobs, communities, cars, toys, equipment, or virtually any commodity, very few blame anyone for leaving what they believe to be a inferior product and going to a superior product. In all of the above situations, the "inferior product" is "blamed" for not keeping up with the other.

Whether you want to admit it or not, public schools should have a huge advantage. If people are leaving them, why are they not changing to prevent it? And please don't give me an outstate vs metro response.

The private school system works fine,
when you don't have to take care of ALL the kids out there.

But if you can afford it, use it.

The problem a lot of us have is there are enough holier than thou private schoolers to make us despise all of you.
So add a class to the freshman curriculum, humility.

And winning or losing a hockey game means nothing. We understand what we have here in the outstate. We cheer loud when we have that exceptional group of athletes. And we cheer loud when we get our ass handed to us.

There is no reason I can think of that ALL of those kids you refer to have to be in the same classroom.

There are those from the public school communities with an opposite, similar attitude. Many from both communities are ignorant of the other and think they are better.

Why does the private/public discussion always turn into a metro/outstate discussion?


But I digress. I look forward to the positive, constructive responses...

[HShockeywatcher]

1. How many kids from food stamp families?
2. How many autistic kids, AFS, how many in foster homes?
3. Do you have any kids that don't know if they are staying with grandpa and grandma tonight or maybe at a cousins house?
4. How many kids start kindergarten without ever having had someone read them a book?
5. How many have been sexually abused?
6. How much effort does the admin put into keeping kids from dropping out?
7. Do you have the local gangs haning out the back door recruiting members?
8. And you still have the Federal and State making you meet mandates that cannot possible be met, but yet you keep working hard for every single kid that starts at your school....

If families are able to make the necessary financial aid payments, they can attend. Period.

elliot:
to 1, 3, 4 and 5, more than you would believe.
to 2, some do, some don't. For many, based on size it is not economical.
to 6, likely similar to the public schools. In both instances, funding is lost when students are lost.
to 7, probably not much, but that isn't the case for every public school either.
And with 8 you bring up one major issue. A disconnect from the govt to the classroom. You can't honestly think that every public school "work[s] hard for every single kid that starts at [their] school..." can you? Many do and are great at it and many don't. In many situations there are also not systems set up for them to do what they need to.

[PuckU126]

1. How many kids from food stamp families?
2. How many autistic kids, AFS, how many in foster homes?
3. Do you have any kids that don't know if they are staying with grandpa and grandma tonight or maybe at a cousins house?
4. How many kids start kindergarten without ever having had someone read them a book?
5. How many have been sexually abused?
6. How much effort does the admin put into keeping kids from dropping out?
7. Do you have the local gangs haning out the back door recruiting members?
8. And you still have the Federal and State making you meet mandates that cannot possible be met, but yet you keep working hard for every single kid that starts at your school....

If families are able to make the necessary financial aid payments, they can attend. Period.

elliot:
to 1, 3, 4 and 5, more than you would believe.
to 2, some do, some don't. For many, based on size it is not economical.
to 6, likely similar to the public schools. In both instances, funding is lost when students are lost.
to 7, probably not much, but that isn't the case for every public school either.
And with 8 you bring up one major issue. A disconnect from the govt to the classroom. You can't honestly think that every public school "work[s] hard for every single kid that starts at [their] school..." can you? Many do and are great at it and many don't. In many situations there are also not systems set up for them to do what they need to.

Spot on, HSHW.

[Ogie]

Making a point here will really get no where, as people on the other side think they know so much, but athletic scholarships are not given at private schools (or at least it is not common practice).
Students at private schools get need based scholarships. And again, this money doesn't grow on trees, it comes from donars.
If you really don't think things are provided to students at public schools at a similar need based basis, then your head is really in the sand. I doubt hockey pads are bought for them, but other services are provided for children who need things.

What commodity is that? Why isn't it provided it at public schools?

......

You still have yet to explain what "equal footing" means.
Even if you got rid of the private schools, there are plenty of public schools not on "equal footing" with each other. Life isn't about being equal, nor are athletics ever in life.


....

No one has said "everything is equal." You keep repeating that "everyone is saying" this and that but no one is actually saying that. There are plenty of differences between the two.

Glad you brought up Roseau...what class are they in?

Even though I'm new to this partuicular debate, one thing has become crystal clear to me...rainier is the king of the straw man argument.

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/strawman.html

[rainier]

Making a point here will really get no where, as people on the other side think they know so much, but athletic scholarships are not given at private schools (or at least it is not common practice).
Students at private schools get need based scholarships. And again, this money doesn't grow on trees, it comes from donars.
If you really don't think things are provided to students at public schools at a similar need based basis, then your head is really in the sand. I doubt hockey pads are bought for them, but other services are provided for children who need things.

What commodity is that? Why isn't it provided it at public schools?

......

You still have yet to explain what "equal footing" means.
Even if you got rid of the private schools, there are plenty of public schools not on "equal footing" with each other. Life isn't about being equal, nor are athletics ever in life.


....

No one has said "everything is equal." You keep repeating that "everyone is saying" this and that but no one is actually saying that. There are plenty of differences between the two.

Glad you brought up Roseau...what class are they in?

Even though I'm new to this partuicular debate, one thing has become crystal clear to me...rainier is the king of the straw man argument.

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/strawman.html

They must not have debate teams at private schools.

Ogie-You keep saying "straw man" and claim that I have "no substance" in my arguments, yet I was the one who provided a concrete example of antitrust action and a thought-out scenario of free markets in education. Whether you agree with my thoughts or not, at least I put some actual thought into my responses. You on the other hand, have offered absolutely nothing besides conservative radio talk show buzzwords. (straw man, gubbamint, ad hominem, etc.) No substance whatsoever. I have yet to detect even the slightest whisper of an original thought in any of your posts. You are an inferior opponent and I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed man.

You lose, buddy.

HSHW- Ah, here we go again. You are using your classic moves: Deny, ignore, and deflect, with no real answers or quality rebuttal. I gave two advantages that private schools have, yet you still say "Please explain what these advantages are that you keep referring to". This is your ignore strategy, which is as maddening as it is ineffective. I listed two advantages in the post with explanations. Read them. There they are. You can't miss them.

I say that private schools have access to more money than public schools. You admit that they do have more money but then you start to say that the public schools can also raise this type of money. This is your deflect strategy. I made a point that you cannot disagree with, yet in a feeble attempt to save face, you steer the argument elsewhere to an unrelated topic. You agreed that private schools have more money, and that is the point I was making.

Now for your deny strategy. You have said a million times that private schools do not have advantages; we hear it constantly. And then you go ahead and say "No one has said 'everything is equal'". Yet your entire post is aimed at proving private schools do not have advantages. So, according to you, no one is saying everything is equal, yet you are always saying public schools are not at a disadvantage? Which is it HSHW? Which is it?

I can't wait to see which of my statements you ignore, which points you deflect on to unrelated topics, and which statements of yours you deny ever making.

Arguing with you is like playing chess with a goldfish: it's super easy to win but not very rewarding because the opponent doesn't actually know how to play.

[/u]

[thestickler07]

1. Private schools have a unique ability to make themselves more attractive because they can raise money far beyond what taxes will pay for at public schools. This allows them to build facilities that many public schools can only dream of. In my hometown of Hibbing, I believe the last major referendum for any kind of significant upgrade to sports facilities was at least 20 years ago. To build new facilities at a public school, you need to essentially win an election (referendum). This is not the case at private schools.

Interesting take, but public schools can accept donations and fundraise too no?

I would disagree with your assumption that a private school with maybe ~7000 living alumni somehow has more spending power than the ballot box. Look up Massillon Ohio, or basically any school district in Texas. There are plenty of bonding measures passed that take money from people who voted against it and don't have any connection to the school. Is that fair?

2. Private schools can offer a commodity that has a real world cash value to potential recruits. I know not all, but many players do get scholarships from private schools. Private schools have resources not available to public schools, and they can use these to offer free tuition. A public school cannot offer to waive a kid's participation fees, pay for his hockey equipment, or give anything beyond what his family's taxes have already paid for.

What is the "real world cash value"?

Public schools have free tuition.

Everyone that plays hockey has to have equipment.

Activity fees at a public school < tuition at a private one.

It's fine private schools have the ability to do these things, they are private enterprises, after all, and can spend their money how they like. But to suggest that a public school is on equal footing when it comes to the ability to attract players is just plain ludicrous.

This is what stings private school fans the most: the fact that they and everyone else knows they have advantages, and when they win a title, some of the luster is lost because of it (especially in Class A). So they compensate for this by trying to convince others that public schools are in the same situation they are, so therefore everything is equal and they should get just as much respect as a Roseau or Hermantown when they win it. And it kills them that they don't get it.

It doesn't matter how or why the private schools have these advantages, what matters is that they have them.

Don't say "it's fine" and then suggest that private schools should be classified differently, talk about typical MN passive/aggressiveness.

What is this lost luster? The respect of some people who don't know you but don't like you just because of where you go to school or how financial successful your parents were?

Puh-lease.

There are entirely too many rubes that have a major superiority complex when it comes to high school hockey in Minnesota. Outstate schools didn't invent the noble underdog mentality, it's one of the biggest cliches in history, but plenty of people sure love holding on to it.

If you want to continue to clutch on to your outdated sense of altruism go right ahead, I'm sure there are plenty of people that would rather have the trophies.

The differences here are the same for everything in life, numbers and resources. If you can't control those things there is no use getting worked up about them, change your attitude instead.

[Ogie]

Making a point here will really get no where, as people on the other side think they know so much, but athletic scholarships are not given at private schools (or at least it is not common practice).
Students at private schools get need based scholarships. And again, this money doesn't grow on trees, it comes from donars.
If you really don't think things are provided to students at public schools at a similar need based basis, then your head is really in the sand. I doubt hockey pads are bought for them, but other services are provided for children who need things.

What commodity is that? Why isn't it provided it at public schools?

......

You still have yet to explain what "equal footing" means.
Even if you got rid of the private schools, there are plenty of public schools not on "equal footing" with each other. Life isn't about being equal, nor are athletics ever in life.


....

No one has said "everything is equal." You keep repeating that "everyone is saying" this and that but no one is actually saying that. There are plenty of differences between the two.

Glad you brought up Roseau...what class are they in?

Even though I'm new to this partuicular debate, one thing has become crystal clear to me...rainier is the king of the straw man argument.

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/strawman.html

They must not have debate teams at private schools.

I didn't attend a private school...Strike one.

Ogie-You keep saying "straw man" and claim that I have "no substance" in my arguments, yet I was the one who provided a concrete example of antitrust action and a thought-out scenario of free markets in education. Whether you agree with my thoughts or not, at least I put some actual thought into my responses. You on the other hand, have offered absolutely nothing besides conservative radio talk show buzzwords. (straw man, gubbamint, ad hominem, etc.) No substance whatsoever. I have yet to detect even the slightest whisper of an original thought in any of your posts. You are an inferior opponent and I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed man.

You lose, buddy.

Your ignorance of the meaning of straw man, non sequitur, ad hominem and other logical fallacies is no fault of mine.

Hint: It's not because of my command of Latin.......Strike two.

Arguing with you is like playing chess with a goldfish: it's super easy to win but not very rewarding because the opponent doesn't actually know how to play.

Irony, thy name is rainier....Grab some bench....

[HShockeywatcher]

I didn't grow up on the range. I have learned a lot from conversations with people who have. Never once have I said, "your first hand experience is wrong" to any of them. Not sure why the reverse isn't true. d'oh!

People are explaining first hand accounts of their experiences (well, I am at least, and I know at least one other person is) and the response is "you don't know what you're talking about." This is what continues to blow my mind.

I'm not agreeing with anything in terms of funding. I am speaking from first hand experience when I say that I have seen public school facilities being built because of funding the in the same way that some private schools do. Additionally, you use "private schools" as if it is everyone. The facilities at every private school are not the same. There are some with great facilities, there are some without, same with private schools.
Now, the particular public community you are referring to may not tap into their alumni base, but that is not the fault of those that have.

I have never said private schools don't have advantages. What I'm saying is a) the advantages you refer to are not public/private and b) public, community programs have advantages also.
There is no "equal" there is only "different."

You constantly say I "keep saying" things I've never said. If you don't understand words I'm saying, ask for clarification, but you are simply putting words in my mouth.

So, if I understand this right, you are saying that an advantages are:
a. that they ask alumni for funds?
and
b. that they are providing, what you must consider, a higher quality "product"?
And public communities cannot provide either of these?

Doing something someone else doesn't do is different from doing something they can't do. What you're saying is basically like complaining it's not fair that someone else is better because they practice more. Every "advantage" you complain about that private schools have, are simply things many public, community schools do not take advantage of.
If you are, however, lumping private and metro together, then we will likely not be able to have a coherent conversation

You sure do take a lot away from the quality community schools around the state with everything you say...

[rainier]

I didn't grow up on the range. I have learned a lot from conversations with people who have. Never once have I said, "your first hand experience is wrong" to any of them. Not sure why the reverse isn't true. d'oh!

People are explaining first hand accounts of their experiences (well, I am at least, and I know at least one other person is) and the response is "you don't know what you're talking about." This is what continues to blow my mind.

I'm not agreeing with anything in terms of funding. I am speaking from first hand experience when I say that I have seen public school facilities being built because of funding the in the same way that some private schools do. Additionally, you use "private schools" as if it is everyone. The facilities at every private school are not the same. There are some with great facilities, there are some without, same with private schools.
Now, the particular public community you are referring to may not tap into their alumni base, but that is not the fault of those that have.

I have never said private schools don't have advantages. What I'm saying is a) the advantages you refer to are not public/private and b) public, community programs have advantages also.
There is no "equal" there is only "different."

You constantly say I "keep saying" things I've never said. If you don't understand words I'm saying, ask for clarification, but you are simply putting words in my mouth.

So, if I understand this right, you are saying that an advantages are:
a. that they ask alumni for funds?
and
b. that they are providing, what you must consider, a higher quality "product"?
And public communities cannot provide either of these?

Doing something someone else doesn't do is different from doing something they can't do. What you're saying is basically like complaining it's not fair that someone else is better because they practice more. Every "advantage" you complain about that private schools have, are simply things many public, community schools do not take advantage of.
If you are, however, lumping private and metro together, then we will likely not be able to have a coherent conversation

You sure do take a lot away from the quality community schools around the state with everything you say...

There it is in bold, you admit private schools have advantages. It is recorded in your post for all eternity. That's my point, private schools have advantages over public schools, advantages that get magnified in Class A.

Can public schools also raise significant money from donors? Sure, but it doesn't happen very often, and that is my point. You can talk all you want about public schools can do this or that, but in reality it doesn't happen, and that leaves us with private schools having advantages.

Why this is the case is another argument.

HSHW, I know you are going to ask me "What are these advantages you keep talking about?" That's what you do. So don't even ask, just go to my previous post.

As for the stickler and your claim that there is no luster lost when it comes to STA's trophies: only an alumni of STA could feel no shame when their private school in a metro area of 2.5 million people is beating teams from communities of 10,000 people. It disgusts the VAST majority of hs hockey fans, including Lou Nanne, who thought it was so shameful that he repeatedly called (publicly!) for STA's move up. Your first trophy has a little shine to it, but every one after that gets duller and duller, kind of like Ogie's posts.

[Rude Dog]

rainier wrote:
1. Private schools have a unique ability to make themselves more attractive because they can raise money far beyond what taxes will pay for at public schools. This allows them to build facilities that many public schools can only dream of. In my hometown of Hibbing, I believe the last major referendum for any kind of significant upgrade to sports facilities was at least 20 years ago. To build new facilities at a public school, you need to essentially win an election (referendum). This is not the case at private schools.

So, exactly which facilities in Hermantown are lacking so much that someone wouldn't want to play there? What exactly is it that is holding back Hermantown's hockey program because they are a public school? Is it the Arena, the ice surface, the locker rooms, concession stand, sound system??? Please help us to understand your argument.

I bet Roseau is very sympathetic to Hermantowns trials and tribulations. They have a community 1/4 the size and don't have anyone move there from a surrounding community of 100,000 just to play hockey. And instead of whining when they lose they opt up to AA and take on all-comers. That's a class program.

[thestickler07]

Can public schools also raise significant money from donors? Sure

So we are in agreement that public schools have more avenues of revenue generation available to them? And are the only ones that can do so from unwilling people? Cool.

but it doesn't happen very often, and that is my point.

Except for TRF.
Except for Braemar.
Except for Vadnais.

So things "don't happen very often" until they do.

As for the stickler and your claim that there is no luster lost when it comes to STA's trophies: only an alumni of STA could feel no shame when their private school in a metro area of 2.5 million people is beating teams from communities of 10,000 people. It disgusts the VAST majority of hs hockey fans, including Lou Nanne, who thought it was so shameful that he repeatedly called (publicly!) for STA's move up. Your first trophy has a little shine to it, but every one after that gets duller and duller, kind of like Ogie's posts.

Nah. I'm saying its pointless to pine endlessly for the approval of people who would never like you anyways.

The state tournament isn't a popularity contest. Why do you care so much about what others think of you? The insecurity in a lot of your responses is just oozing out.

STA plays by the rules and wins championships. A lot of people don't like that because it doesn't fit in to their view of "old time" Minnesota hockey. STA won't do anything to try and change those people's minds because by and far they have more important things to do than care about things they can't control.

Heed the advice of the eternal words of Ice-T, "Don't hate the playa, hate the game."

[pekyman]

I didn't grow up on the range. I have learned a lot from conversations with people who have. Never once have I said, "your first hand experience is wrong" to any of them. Not sure why the reverse isn't true. d'oh!

People are explaining first hand accounts of their experiences (well, I am at least, and I know at least one other person is) and the response is "you don't know what you're talking about." This is what continues to blow my mind.

I'm not agreeing with anything in terms of funding. I am speaking from first hand experience when I say that I have seen public school facilities being built because of funding the in the same way that some private schools do. Additionally, you use "private schools" as if it is everyone. The facilities at every private school are not the same. There are some with great facilities, there are some without, same with private schools.
Now, the particular public community you are referring to may not tap into their alumni base, but that is not the fault of those that have.

I have never said private schools don't have advantages. What I'm saying is a) the advantages you refer to are not public/private and b) public, community programs have advantages also.
There is no "equal" there is only "different."

You constantly say I "keep saying" things I've never said. If you don't understand words I'm saying, ask for clarification, but you are simply putting words in my mouth.

So, if I understand this right, you are saying that an advantages are:
a. that they ask alumni for funds?
and
b. that they are providing, what you must consider, a higher quality "product"?
And public communities cannot provide either of these?

Doing something someone else doesn't do is different from doing something they can't do. What you're saying is basically like complaining it's not fair that someone else is better because they practice more. Every "advantage" you complain about that private schools have, are simply things many public, community schools do not take advantage of.
If you are, however, lumping private and metro together, then we will likely not be able to have a coherent conversation

You sure do take a lot away from the quality community schools around the state with everything you say...

There it is in bold, you admit private schools have advantages. It is recorded in your post for all eternity. That's my point, private schools have advantages over public schools, advantages that get magnified in Class A.

Can public schools also raise significant money from donors? Sure, but it doesn't happen very often, and that is my point. You can talk all you want about public schools can do this or that, but in reality it doesn't happen, and that leaves us with private schools having advantages.

Why this is the case is another argument.

HSHW, I know you are going to ask me "What are these advantages you keep talking about?" That's what you do. So don't even ask, just go to my previous post.

As for the stickler and your claim that there is no luster lost when it comes to STA's trophies: only an alumni of STA could feel no shame when their private school in a metro area of 2.5 million people is beating teams from communities of 10,000 people. It disgusts the VAST majority of hs hockey fans, including Lou Nanne, who thought it was so shameful that he repeatedly called (publicly!) for STA's move up. Your first trophy has a little shine to it, but every one after that gets duller and duller, kind of like Ogie's posts.

=D>=D>

[rainier]

Can public schools also raise significant money from donors? Sure

So we are in agreement that public schools have more avenues of revenue generation available to them? And are the only ones that can do so from unwilling people? Cool.

As I said before, I agree that public schools can raise more money, but they don't. In theory, I could play in the NHL. No one is stopping me. But it's not reality. Private schools have more resources per student which makes them more attractive. That is reality. The issue of why is another discussion, but go ahead and keep bringing it up if that's all you got.

but it doesn't happen very often, and that is my point.

Except for TRF.
Except for Braemar.
Except for Vadnais.

So things "don't happen very often" until they do.

Wow, you came up with a whole 3 examples from the entire state of MN! 3! That certainly refutes my "not very often" claim. No wait, it doesn't do that at all, it only strengthens it.

And the TRF arena was built by Ralph Engelstad, who just happened to also build the nicest college hockey arena in the U.S. Perhaps you didn't know this, but not many public schools have billionaire casino magnates willing to dump millions into their hockey programs. Maybe this is so commonplace in private schools that you don't recognize that for public schools TRF's situation is the anomaly of all anomalies.

How old is Braemar? And wasn't it built for one of the most affluent public schools in the state? Hardly representative of the other 99% of public schools.

Was Vadnais built for one high school? I don't know enough about it.

The following paragraph has been edited for correctness.

STA plays by (abuses? takes advantage of?) the rules and wins (buys) championships (In Class A). A lot of people (everyone besides private school bobos) don't like that because it doesn't fit in to their view of "old time" Minnesota hockey (or sportsmanship). STA won't do anything (ethical) to try and change those people's minds because by and far they have more important things to do than care about things they can't control.

Heed the advice of the eternal words of Ice-T, "Don't hate the playa, hate the game." "How about: Hate the playa that makes a mockery of a high school tournament in the name of greed?"

Best of luck in AA.

[Rude Dog]

Can public schools also raise significant money from donors? Sure

So we are in agreement that public schools have more avenues of revenue generation available to them? And are the only ones that can do so from unwilling people? Cool.

As I said before, I agree that public schools can raise more money, but they don't. In theory, I could play in the NHL. No one is stopping me. But it's not reality. Private schools have more resources per student which makes them more attractive. That is reality. The issue of why is another discussion, but go ahead and keep bringing it up if that's all you got.

but it doesn't happen very often, and that is my point.

Except for TRF.
Except for Braemar.
Except for Vadnais.

So things "don't happen very often" until they do.

Wow, you came up with a whole 3 examples from the entire state of MN! 3! That certainly refutes my "not very often" claim. No wait, it doesn't do that at all, it only strengthens it.

And the TRF arena was built by Ralph Engelstad, who just happened to also build the nicest college hockey arena in the U.S. Perhaps you didn't know this, but not many public schools have billionaire casino magnates willing to dump millions into their hockey programs. Maybe this is so commonplace in private schools that you don't recognize that for public schools TRF's situation is the anomaly of all anomalies.

How old is Braemar? And wasn't it built for one of the most affluent public schools in the state? Hardly representative of the other 99% of public schools.

Was Vadnais built for one high school? I don't know enough about it.

The following paragraph has been edited for correctness.

STA plays by (abuses? takes advantage of?) the rules and wins (buys) championships (In Class A). A lot of people (everyone besides private school bobos) don't like that because it doesn't fit in to their view of "old time" Minnesota hockey (or sportsmanship). STA won't do anything (ethical) to try and change those people's minds because by and far they have more important things to do than care about things they can't control.

Heed the advice of the eternal words of Ice-T, "Don't hate the playa, hate the game." "How about: Hate the playa that makes a mockery of a high school tournament in the name of greed?"

Perhaps you missed my question from earlier Rainier. Where exactly is Hermantown Hockey being held back by a lack of resources?

[rainier]

Perhaps you missed my question from earlier Rainier. Where exactly is Hermantown Hockey being held back by a lack of resources?

In Hermantown it's not as much the lack of financial resources so much as it is the fact that the talent pool they draw from contains about 2.2 million fewer people than that which a metro private school draws from.

But I guess that's not really much of an advantage, is it?

[Ogie]

There it is in bold, you admit private schools have advantages. It is recorded in your post for all eternity. That's my point, private schools have advantages over public schools, advantages that get magnified in Class A.

Can public schools also raise significant money from donors? Sure, but it doesn't happen very often, and that is my point. You can talk all you want about public schools can do this or that, but in reality it doesn't happen, and that leaves us with private schools having advantages.

Why this is the case is another argument.

HSHW, I know you are going to ask me "What are these advantages you keep talking about?" That's what you do. So don't even ask, just go to my previous post.

As for the stickler and your claim that there is no luster lost when it comes to STA's trophies: only an alumni of STA could feel no shame when their private school in a metro area of 2.5 million people is beating teams from communities of 10,000 people. It disgusts the VAST majority of hs hockey fans, including Lou Nanne, who thought it was so shameful that he repeatedly called (publicly!) for STA's move up. Your first trophy has a little shine to it, but every one after that gets duller and duller, kind of like Ogie's posts.

While that's a reasonably valid argument to move STA into AA, it still cannot cover for your naked bigotry of market-based schools and utter ignorance of so much as HS sophomore level macroeconomics.

Dull indeed.

[elliott70]

Except for TRF.
Except for Braemar.
Except for Vadnais

Not sure about Braemer and Vadnais, but
TRF is a city facility and functions more than an athletic facility.
Some see it as a detriment because of the operating costs.
And it is far from the norm in northern MN.

[Ogie]

Except for TRF.
Except for Braemar.
Except for Vadnais

Not sure about Braemer and Vadnais, but
TRF is a city facility and functions more than an athletic facility.
Some see it as a detriment because of the operating costs.
And it is far from the norm in northern MN.

Pagel.

[MrBoDangles]

I didn't grow up on the range. I have learned a lot from conversations with people who have. Never once have I said, "your first hand experience is wrong" to any of them. Not sure why the reverse isn't true. d'oh!

People are explaining first hand accounts of their experiences (well, I am at least, and I know at least one other person is) and the response is "you don't know what you're talking about." This is what continues to blow my mind.

I'm not agreeing with anything in terms of funding. I am speaking from first hand experience when I say that I have seen public school facilities being built because of funding the in the same way that some private schools do. Additionally, you use "private schools" as if it is everyone. The facilities at every private school are not the same. There are some with great facilities, there are some without, same with private schools.
Now, the particular public community you are referring to may not tap into their alumni base, but that is not the fault of those that have.

I have never said private schools don't have advantages. What I'm saying is a) the advantages you refer to are not public/private and b) public, community programs have advantages also.
There is no "equal" there is only "different."

You constantly say I "keep saying" things I've never said. If you don't understand words I'm saying, ask for clarification, but you are simply putting words in my mouth.

So, if I understand this right, you are saying that an advantages are:
a. that they ask alumni for funds?
and
b. that they are providing, what you must consider, a higher quality "product"?
And public communities cannot provide either of these?

Doing something someone else doesn't do is different from doing something they can't do. What you're saying is basically like complaining it's not fair that someone else is better because they practice more. Every "advantage" you complain about that private schools have, are simply things many public, community schools do not take advantage of.
If you are, however, lumping private and metro together, then we will likely not be able to have a coherent conversation

You sure do take a lot away from the quality community schools around the state with everything you say...

There it is in bold, you admit private schools have advantages. It is recorded in your post for all eternity. That's my point, private schools have advantages over public schools, advantages that get magnified in Class A.

Can public schools also raise significant money from donors? Sure, but it doesn't happen very often, and that is my point. You can talk all you want about public schools can do this or that, but in reality it doesn't happen, and that leaves us with private schools having advantages.

Why this is the case is another argument.

HSHW, I know you are going to ask me "What are these advantages you keep talking about?" That's what you do. So don't even ask, just go to my previous post.

As for the stickler and your claim that there is no luster lost when it comes to STA's trophies: only an alumni of STA could feel no shame when their private school in a metro area of 2.5 million people is beating teams from communities of 10,000 people. It disgusts the VAST majority of hs hockey fans, including Lou Nanne, who thought it was so shameful that he repeatedly called (publicly!) for STA's move up. Your first trophy has a little shine to it, but every one after that gets duller and duller, kind of like Ogie's posts.

This post should be framed in solid gold.

[elliott70]

There is no reason I can think of that ALL of those kids you refer to have to be in the same classroom.

Well, you see, right there, you have no training, no experience to base that comment on.
So why do you make it.
Bemidji is surrounded by 3 native American reservations.
Some of those kids come to Bemidji. and, unfortunately for all concerned, most of these kids have special needs so the community provides for them. The communities that provide for these students directly have an even bigger % of special needs.

So yes, a lot are in one classroom, but even if they are spread out, what is the point you are making. Their needs diminish?????

The point is private schools do not administer to ALL. The public schools not only do but MUST. And this takes resources.

hshw, you need to get older.

[elliott70]

The bottom line about STA playing A or AA is simple.
they are capable of playing at that level. They have the resources to do so, so yes, play AA.
It makes the A tournament more competitive.

Should Roseau play AA, currently, yes. They have the resources to do so.
It appears that is changing and perhaps they will be A before to long.

Should Hermantown opt up?
Probably.

Warroad.
Not unless something changes, no.

Should all private schools opt up.
Certainly not.

But Breck, Totino, I am thinking yes.

Do I care?
Nope.

As I said at another time another place, I cheer for the teams I cheer for, win or lose. why? Becasue they are my family, friends, neighbors.

So I cheer for Bemidji, Roseau, Intl Falls, Bagley and Hill.

STA? No.

[Rude Dog]

Rainier wrote:
Private schools have more resources per student which makes them more attractive.

If this is true then why aren't all of the top players at Hermantown at Duluth Marshall?

[thestickler07]

As I said before, I agree that public schools can raise more money, but they don't.

Thank you again for backing me up. By your own admission public schools have greater revenue potential but don't capitalize on it. This is a dead end for you.

]Wow, you came up with a whole 3 examples from the entire state of MN! 3! That certainly refutes my "not very often" claim. No wait, it doesn't do that at all, it only strengthens it.

I'm sure you are capable of using google. The fact is there are plenty of examples of bonding measures/referendums for communities that build facilities.

STA plays by (abuses? takes advantage of?) the rules and wins (buys) championships (In Class A). A lot of people (everyone besides private school bobos) don't like that because it doesn't fit in to their view of "old time" Minnesota hockey (or sportsmanship). STA won't do anything (ethical) to try and change those people's minds because by and far they have more important things to do than care about things they can't control.

Hahaha this is so pathetic.
When you truly got nothing you gotta fling all your s*** at the wall and hope something sticks. Report STA to the MSHSL if you think they are breaking rules. Otherwise all I see is saltiness, insecurity, and excuse making. But then again excuse making probably is one of the most taught things in schools today so I can't be that surprised.

And please can the lecture on sportsmanship, so disingenuous. I couldn't count the amount of times we got "f***ot" chants and the like directed at us during games. Don't worry about me though; the ignorance and ineptitude of others doesn't keep me up at night as much as us winning titles seems to do to you.

Best of luck in AA.

Ahhhh gee thanks!

But save all your luck for Hermantown, they'll need it to win another public school title this year.

Even with nothing left to prove I hope STA goes out of class A in style, but I couldn't be prouder of the program even if we lose. You see that's the difference between how you and I think; if STA loses it'll probably make your whole year, and that reality doesn't make me feel angry, it inspires pity.