Now is the time to force all Privates up to "AA"

[rainier]

I read it and completely understood it believe me. I'm apologize if I made you feel bad or belittled your opinion. I just don't think that delegating class assignments to coaches, and not even "coaches" to be honest its a subset of coaches of high school hockey teams, that play for publicly funded schools only, that don't have enrollments over ~1200 or whatever the exact cutoff is, that aren't in the metro area. I would take a red pen to a map of Minnesota to show you where they are but I got a feeling Hibbing would be one of them. You railed against bias earlier in my hypothetical state tournament change and then you propose a system where personal biases of a small group of coaches would determine where hundreds of kids that they likely will never meet, or compete against plays hockey...

It is not a small group of coaches, it would be more than half of the HS coaches in MN. And if you think the AA coaches should be a part of the process, I could see that being an option. Class assignments are already made by the MSHSL, so wouldn't putting this in the hands of hockey's actual coaches produce more accurate results? I mean, at least many of the coaches will have played many of the teams, which, according to you, is a better way to judge class placement.

Like I said, laughable.


Ok, I tried twice to narrow down this question but again you're just dodging it because you don't want to answer it. Just look at what I bolded in the above quote and tell me the answer to one question...

Why is it "more difficult" for Mahtomedi to get kids to enroll at their school through open enrollment than it is for STA to do the same?

It is more difficult because the payoff for going to Mahtomedi isn't as great as it is for STA. I have already acknowledged private schools have great teachers, facilities, and athletics that are very attractive, and I have also stated that this has nothing whatsoever to do with this issue. It doesn't matter if the kids are going to STA for education, athletics, or for free corn dogs on Tuesdays, what matters is that they draw from a AA sized talent pool, thus they should be in AA.

Not to mention that if Mahtomedi were getting tons of transfers and were dominating in A, they would likely opt up, because they do not rely on alumni donations such as privates do. Staying in A is a business decision for A privates, it isn't for A publics.

[rainier]

LOVE it. I would also add that there shouldn't be any opt ups.

I think you have to allow opt ups. If a team wants to test themselves against the big schools, by all means let them.

I can respect that thought, but it has been brought up by myself and a few other posters that if you don't allow opt ups than you wouldn't see the success and concern that surround privates. No one really cares or whines about who gets 2nd place after all. If the small town programs are good enough, then the big schools will agree to play them in the regular season. You do see this in the girls high school hockey season. I agree that is adds to the drama of the state tourny, seeing a team like Roseau compete for the state title. When I jump off the band wagon is once all these top level A teams leave for AA and we are left with a tournament that is dominated by privates or so watered down that is called the JV tournament by some. I would rather see to great tournaments being played.

I see what you are saying, but if the choices are:
1. Force A schools that want to challenge themselves against the biggest and best down to A.
or
2. Force what are essentially AA schools to stop beating on teams that can't match their enrollment access up to AA.

Then I will take the 2nd option, hands down.

And who is it calling the A tournament a JV tournament? AA fans. The A tournament is for A teams and their fans, and if AA fans don't enjoy it, they don't have to watch it. The AA tourney will still be there for them to get their varsity fix.

There happen to be plenty of AA fans on this message board that like the A tourney, and they would like it just as much and maybe even more if the dominating A privates were removed.

[thestickler07]

It is not a small group of coaches, it would be more than half of the HS coaches in MN. And if you think the AA coaches should be a part of the process, I could see that being an option. Class assignments are already made by the MSHSL, so wouldn't putting this in the hands of hockey's actual coaches produce more accurate results? I mean, at least many of the coaches will have played many of the teams, which, according to you, is a better way to judge class placement.

In general, I would say you know a little more about the quality of a team by seeing them play as opposed to being 400 miles from them and never having done so, I don't feel like I'm going out on a limb by saying that. I don't think that the same people who coach these teams should have a say in the fate of others, you're taking the freedom of choice for someone else and giving it to another.

It is more difficult because the payoff for going to Mahtomedi isn't as great as it is for STA.

Ding ding ding!! I'll ignore the chicken before the egg argument and just sum things up thusly, I don't encourage punishing people for having success.

I have already acknowledged private schools have great teachers, facilities, and athletics that are very attractive, and I have also stated that this has nothing whatsoever to do with this issue. It doesn't matter if the kids are going to STA for education, athletics, or for free corn dogs on Tuesdays, what matters is that they draw from a AA sized talent pool, thus they should be in AA.

I can't tell if you're grasping at straws here or intentionally being absurdly disingenuous. How many posts have you seen on this board where people get snipped at for transferring for "hockey" reasons versus legitimate academic or family ones? So the reasoning DOES matter (duh) and Mahtomedi have the same opportunity to get all the same kids. The choice just seems to be really easy for a lot of people, whose fault is that? STA's for doing what's best for them? For making a commitment to a struggling program?

They had some passionate people that didn't want to see the team languish. They partnered with private citizens and a strong university in town and made it happen. Don't assume public schools are not resourceful, there are plenty of people doing "just fine" in the Mahtomedi area and they have had a good run of things from time to time. They have managed to build quite a powerful 4A football power, and that is more difficult in my opinion then creating a strong hockey squad.

Not to mention that if Mahtomedi were getting tons of transfers and were dominating in A, they would likely opt up, because they do not rely on alumni donations such as privates do. Staying in A is a business decision for A privates, it isn't for A publics.

Conjecture on too many fronts to be taken seriously. I don't presuppose to know anything about Hibbing's administrative decision making process and unless you have something to back up that statement about STA's thought process on the matter I would appreciate if you would reciprocate.

[rainier]

In general, I would say you know a little more about the quality of a team by seeing them play as opposed to being 400 miles from them and never having done so, I don't feel like I'm going out on a limb by saying that. I don't think that the same people who coach these teams should have a say in the fate of others, you're taking the freedom of choice for someone else and giving it to another.

You've got the comparisons confused. I was comparing having coaches do the class assignments vs the MSHSL doing them. At least many of the coaches will be familiar with many of the teams, which is better than MSHSL officials who have never coached against any of the teams.


Ding ding ding!! I'll ignore the chicken before the egg argument and just sum things up thusly, I don't encourage punishing people for having success.

Oh boy, the "punishing success" argument again. What you call punishing success I call enforcing ethical behavior upon those who don't have the integrity to do it themselves. Success obtained via unethical means is not true success.


I can't tell if you're grasping at straws here or intentionally being absurdly disingenuous. How many posts have you seen on this board where people get snipped at for transferring for "hockey" reasons versus legitimate academic or family ones? So the reasoning DOES matter (duh) and Mahtomedi have the same opportunity to get all the same kids. The choice just seems to be really easy for a lot of people, whose fault is that? STA's for doing what's best for them? For making a commitment to a struggling program?

You can keep trying to steer away from the main issue, but no, it doesn't matter how or why the kids go to STA, because at the end of the day they are drawing from an AA sized talent pool, so they should be AA, which is the main issue. Several of your fellow alum have acknowledged this, and fans of AA privates have too. Do you really not see this or are you choosing to not see it?

They had some passionate people that didn't want to see the team languish. They partnered with private citizens and a strong university in town and made it happen. Don't assume public schools are not resourceful, there are plenty of people doing "just fine" in the Mahtomedi area and they have had a good run of things from time to time. They have managed to build quite a powerful 4A football power, and that is more difficult in my opinion then creating a strong hockey squad.

Off topic, next.


Conjecture on too many fronts to be taken seriously. I don't presuppose to know anything about Hibbing's administrative decision making process and unless you have something to back up that statement about STA's thought process on the matter I would appreciate if you would reciprocate.

Ignorance on too many fronts to be taken seriously. No less than HSHW himself said that the championships are a strong tool for enticing donations from alumni, which is a HUGE incentive for STA to keep sandbagging in A. Can't risk losing that cash by playing in AA, eh? Public schools don't worry about this.

Oh, and I can tell you exactly what Hibbing would do, they would opt up, just like they did from 96-01, when they had some fantastic teams that were among the best in AA, and they would opt up again if classes like that were coming through. It's called integrity, look into it.

[PuckRanger]

Also since I see you dodged the question last time about the differences between the ability to "draw talent" in metro publics vs privates, I'll rephrase:

What can STA/AHA/HM do to get kids that Edina can't? EP? Mahtomedi? Anything?.

How about the fact that STA/AHA/HM have an entire team to fill, where as Edina, EP, Mahtomedi have kids already occupying spots from their own programs. You can build a much better team if you get to hand pick the whole roster.

[rainier]

Also since I see you dodged the question last time about the differences between the ability to "draw talent" in metro publics vs privates, I'll rephrase:

What can STA/AHA/HM do to get kids that Edina can't? EP? Mahtomedi? Anything?.

How about the fact that STA/AHA/HM have an entire team to fill, where as Edina, EP, Mahtomedi have kids already occupying spots from their own programs. You can build a much better team if you get to hand pick the whole roster.

Great point. Yet another reason to move the privates to A.

[Mite-dad]

Just curious, how many more Breck or STA titles would it take before it really became ridiculous that they still played A hockey?

[MHGr8ness]

Just curious, how many more Breck or STA titles would it take before it really became ridiculous that they still played A hockey?

0 more. It already is...

[MHGr8ness]

I think you have to allow opt ups. If a team wants to test themselves against the big schools, by all means let them.

I can respect that thought, but it has been brought up by myself and a few other posters that if you don't allow opt ups than you wouldn't see the success and concern that surround privates. No one really cares or whines about who gets 2nd place after all. If the small town programs are good enough, then the big schools will agree to play them in the regular season. You do see this in the girls high school hockey season. I agree that is adds to the drama of the state tourny, seeing a team like Roseau compete for the state title. When I jump off the band wagon is once all these top level A teams leave for AA and we are left with a tournament that is dominated by privates or so watered down that is called the JV tournament by some. I would rather see to great tournaments being played.

I see what you are saying, but if the choices are:
1. Force A schools that want to challenge themselves against the biggest and best down to A.
or
2. Force what are essentially AA schools to stop beating on teams that can't match their enrollment access up to AA.

Then I will take the 2nd option, hands down.

And who is it calling the A tournament a JV tournament? AA fans. The A tournament is for A teams and their fans, and if AA fans don't enjoy it, they don't have to watch it. The AA tourney will still be there for them to get their varsity fix.

There happen to be plenty of AA fans on this message board that like the A tourney, and they would like it just as much and maybe even more if the dominating A privates were removed.

I would take option two over one as well, but I want both. I think if it's divided by enrollment, then you should stay where your enrollment puts you.

[HShockeywatcher]

It is more difficult because the payoff for going to Mahtomedi isn't as great as it is for STA. I have already acknowledged private schools have great teachers, facilities, and athletics that are very attractive, and I have also stated that this has nothing whatsoever to do with this issue. It doesn't matter if the kids are going to STA for education, athletics, or for free corn dogs on Tuesdays, what matters is that they draw from a AA sized talent pool, thus they should be in AA.

It's not off topic in the least; you simply choose to ignore the good points that are on topic, the ones centered around any sort of solution to this "issue" you seem to have.

Mahtomedi (only using them because it was brought up) is the 65th biggest school based on enrollment in MN. If MN wasn't silly and counted the enrollments of all teams in a coop, they would be a AA team. What thestickler07 brings up is what you continue to ignore; why shouldn't schools want to make their schools more attractive to others?
If there a students in Lakeville South (for example) who don't want to attend their school anymore for some reason, why shouldn't a public school want those students to try to open enroll with them?

Also since I see you dodged the question last time about the differences between the ability to "draw talent" in metro publics vs privates, I'll rephrase:

What can STA/AHA/HM do to get kids that Edina can't? EP? Mahtomedi? Anything?.

How about the fact that STA/AHA/HM have an entire team to fill, where as Edina, EP, Mahtomedi have kids already occupying spots from their own programs. You can build a much better team if you get to hand pick the whole roster.

So, what you're saying is that it's easier to attract a whole JV/V roster of 40+ student athletes to spend $20k a year to come to your school than it is to attract one or two more players from another district to play for you for free via open enrollment?

It's so funny that if there was a public school doing this (there are) it would be okay, but when private schools do they are doing something wrong

You can keep trying to steer away from the main issue, but no, it doesn't matter how or why the kids go to STA, because at the end of the day they are drawing from an AA sized talent pool, so they should be AA, which is the main issue. Several of your fellow alum have acknowledged this, and fans of AA privates have too. Do you really not see this or are you choosing to not see it?

What is this magical "AA sized talent pool" you speak of? I remember years ago in 8th grade when the crane came and picked me out of the pool...
Seriously though, how does this work? If you are located in the metro and you are a public school with any students open enrolled, do you count too? I have a feeling (show me some data I'm wrong if I am) that there would be 100+ teams "drawing" from this so called "talent pool" if that were the case...
Oh shucks, they're public schools, so the same logic doesn't apply to them

[HShockeywatcher]

Just curious, how many more Breck or STA titles would it take before it really became ridiculous that they still played A hockey?

0 more. It already is...

Just curious, how many more titles before someone else wants it bad enough they come in and take it? Mahtomedi did it twice in 4A; never heard any whining from their fans. Hermantown is the favorite this year and even their fans whine.

[thestickler07]

You've got the comparisons confused. I was comparing having coaches do the class assignments vs the MSHSL doing them. At least many of the coaches will be familiar with many of the teams, which is better than MSHSL officials who have never coached against any of the teams.

Trust me I understand you better than you think. What you're saying doesn't follow though because the MSHSL doesn't classify teams into A or AA based on how good they are, its by the numbers so its a moot point.

Oh boy, the "punishing success" argument again. What you call punishing success I call enforcing ethical behavior upon those who don't have the integrity to do it themselves. Success obtained via unethical means is not true success.

I wasn't actually trying to reference hockey success, it was more about success in all the fields that you mentioned. But I'll give you another example anyways, look at what they do in swimming. They have been dominant in A, but of all the countless articles I've seen on the program there hasn't been one asking them to opt up to AA. How do you explain this phenomenon? STA gave the students on the hockey team a great facility and hired coaches who seem to have proven to be of the same caliber as the rest of the faculty/staff as you pointed out. Now that they are relevant and doing exactly what they have done in everything else you've lauded thus far you are calling them unethical and cowardly. At least STA has been consistent, you've been nothing of the sort.

You can keep trying to steer away from the main issue, but no, it doesn't matter how or why the kids go to STA, because at the end of the day they are drawing from an AA sized talent pool, so they should be AA, which is the main issue. Several of your fellow alum have acknowledged this, and fans of AA privates have too. Do you really not see this or are you choosing to not see it?

St. Thomas isn't going to turn away any student who applies and gets in because of how far away they live. I guess I don't know what you want them to do here. Would a public school turn away a talented musician because their band didn't need another clarinet? Would they do the same thing with a hockey player? Exactly. STA isn't going to show someone the door if they are accepted and want to go there, the point of a school is to teach and all...

Conjecture on too many fronts to be taken seriously. I don't presuppose to know anything about Hibbing's administrative decision making process and unless you have something to back up that statement about STA's thought process on the matter I would appreciate if you would reciprocate.

All I can give you is the line they gave us. I've asked and its the same answer they've given publicly. They have been nothing but consistent.

Ignorance on too many fronts to be taken seriously. No less than HSHW himself said that the championships are a strong tool for enticing donations from alumni, which is a HUGE incentive for STA to keep sandbagging in A. Can't risk losing that cash by playing in AA, eh? Public schools don't worry about this.

Damn using HSHW as gospel for STA? Funny how many people attack him until its convenient not too...

Oh, and I can tell you exactly what Hibbing would do, they would opt up, just like they did from 96-01, when they had some fantastic teams that were among the best in AA, and they would opt up again if classes like that were coming through. It's called integrity, look into it.

That's fine, you guys are known for hockey we aren't. We don't have the history you guys do, or the tradition that everyone gets off about. We're known for academics, so that's where we make our bread, everything else is just gravy.

[rainier]

It's not off topic in the least; you simply choose to ignore the good points that are on topic, the ones centered around any sort of solution to this "issue" you seem to have.

I gave my idea for a solution, if you and stickler have given yours, great. I posted mine several times, do you think it is workable?

Mahtomedi (only using them because it was brought up) is the 65th biggest school based on enrollment in MN. If MN wasn't silly and counted the enrollments of all teams in a coop, they would be a AA team. What thestickler07 brings up is what you continue to ignore; why shouldn't schools want to make their schools more attractive to others?
If there a students in Lakeville South (for example) who don't want to attend their school anymore for some reason, why shouldn't a public school want those students to try to open enroll with them?

Again, why or how kids go to STA is IRRELEVANT to this issue. You keep saying it is, but it's not. And here's why:

1. At the end of the day, STA has drawn from multiple AA sized communities, thus their pool of players to select from is AA. It is the end result that is important here, not the way it comes about.

2. This whole thing of schools making themselves "attractive" to kids does not apply to the VAST majority of A schools. It doesn't matter how attractive Hibbing, Little Falls, TRF, and many other A schools make themselves, because THERE ARE NO LARGE COMMUNITIES NEAR THEM TO DRAW FROM! Hermantown does not admit transfers, I-Falls is a long way from anywhere, and even if Warroad brings in a kid or two, they still are drawing from an A sized talent pool.



What is this magical "AA sized talent pool" you speak of? I remember years ago in 8th grade when the crane came and picked me out of the pool...
Seriously though, how does this work? If you are located in the metro and you are a public school with any students open enrolled, do you count too? I have a feeling (show me some data I'm wrong if I am) that there would be 100+ teams "drawing" from this so called "talent pool" if that were the case...
Oh shucks, they're public schools, so the same logic doesn't apply to them

I'll tell you what the magical talent pool is: IT IS ALL THE COMMUNITIES THE STA PLAYERS CAME FROM. And it sure as heck is AA sized. Sure, there are kids that move to different public schools, but STA's entire team is formed this way, so why would the same logic apply to them, they build their team completely differently. STA is not getting mediocre players and then developing them, they are getting talented players, plugging them in, and repeating. It is an all-star team using players from numerous large communities. For them to not be in AA is ridiculous.

[HappyHockeyFan]

If trying to stick to the main point of the thread by making reasoned, focused arguments is going nuts, then yes, I am flying over the cuckoo's nest for sure.

A couple of points:
1. I am a Hibbing fan, not a Hermantown fan. Hermantown is the epitome of what Class A hockey is about, and I admire them greatly for it.

2. I am not addressing any one class tournament or super section arguments because they are futile. The two class split is irreversible; the MSHSL is NOT going to give up the extra money it brings in. Putting private schools in AA could very well happen though, as every year the private dominance continues, the voices of opposition get louder.

3. HSHW, you keep bringing up that the public schools should do more to draw kids in and that private schools are "providing a place for students to attend when, in their opinion, their money isn't being well spent at their local school. " Fine, I see what you are saying, private schools do offer great facilities, teachers, curriculum, etc. but this is totally irrelevant to the fact that they still have AA sized talent pools. Other STA and Breck fans acknowledge that this is indeed a fact, so should you. It doesn't matter why kids go to private schools, what matters is that when they get their talent from a huge area, they are a AA school, period.

4. To those who say the public class A schools are whining because they are losing, you are right, but only half right. We are whining because our A teams are losing to AA schools. 1% of class A fans complain when a Warroad or Hermantown win; 99% of A fans complain when STA or Breck win. The AA equivalent to this is if SSM were allowed to play in HS. They would win tons of titles and dominate, and boy, would you hear the whining then. But you know what? That whining would be totally justified, just as it is for teams like STA and Breck sandbagging in A.

5. Who is really going nuts are the private school alums on this message board who can't stand the fact that their titles are tainted and not respected by anyone other than their fellow classmates. They want the recognition and glory that comes with winning state titles, but they never get it because anyone can see what a farce it is that they are in class A. That is why they bring up completely unrelated and irrelevant arguments to deflect the conversation away from the painful truth that their programs only win those titles because they have 10 times more kids to chose from than public A schools. The truth has them painted into a corner, and because they can't face this embarrassing reality, they lash out in desperation to make themselves feel better. Other private schools that put integrity before winning realized this truth, so they opted up, which kills these A private school fans even more.

I am still waiting for someone to tell me why it is acceptable and ethical for teams with AA sized talent pools to be playing in and dominating A, and until I hear a real answer I will continue to bring this fact up.

Absolutely well stated and I could not agree with you more...

[Tenoverpar]

just a question...what about the privates that essentially are bad at hockey and don't win anything year in and year out? Is every private school reloading with 6 or 7 blue chippers a year? The private schools have no guarantee anyone is coming in, not all of them.

[rainier]

Trust me I understand you better than you think. What you're saying doesn't follow though because the MSHSL doesn't classify teams into A or AA based on how good they are, its by the numbers so its a moot point.

I never said they did, I said if we used the idea I proposed, it would be better to have coaches do the selecting than the MSHSL, because you criticized the coaches part of my idea. Try to keep things straight if you want to be taken seriously.

I wasn't actually trying to reference hockey success, it was more about success in all the fields that you mentioned. But I'll give you another example anyways, look at what they do in swimming. They have been dominant in A, but of all the countless articles I've seen on the program there hasn't been one asking them to opt up to AA. How do you explain this phenomenon? STA gave the students on the hockey team a great facility and hired coaches who seem to have proven to be of the same caliber as the rest of the faculty/staff as you pointed out. Now that they are relevant and doing exactly what they have done in everything else you've lauded thus far you are calling them unethical and cowardly. At least STA has been consistent, you've been nothing of the sort.

Wrong again, I have been consistently pointing out STA draws from an AA sized talent pool, which private school alums on here have agreed with. I have also consistently given my idea for a solution. In fact, I get ripped for repeating myself. You want to trail off in all directions to get away from this airtight argument, but at least you do that consistently. Who cares about swimming? All that shows is that STA is consistently sandbagging. When you dominate for years, move up already. That example just makes your school look even worse, which I didn't think was possible.

St. Thomas isn't going to turn away any student who applies and gets in because of how far away they live. I guess I don't know what you want them to do here. Would a public school turn away a talented musician because their band didn't need another clarinet? Would they do the same thing with a hockey player? Exactly. STA isn't going to show someone the door if they are accepted and want to go there, the point of a school is to teach and all...

You just supported my argument, which is that STA gets kids from everywhere, which is why they should be in AA. They shouldn't turn away kids if they have the $$$, but they should be in AA.


All I can give you is the line they gave us. I've asked and its the same answer they've given publicly. They have been nothing but consistent.

It is not the fault of the students, parents, or alumni, it is the fault of the administration. And they consistently choose to sandbag. I would be pissed if I was an STA alum.


Damn using HSHW as gospel for STA? Funny how many people attack him until its convenient not too...

That's how debates work, you use your opponents statements to shine a light through the holes in their flimsy arguments. You wanted me to get rid of conjecture, so I used the words of a confirmed STA grad to make a point. You may not like it, but you can't have it both ways.

That's fine, you guys are known for hockey we aren't. We don't have the history you guys do, or the tradition that everyone gets off about. We're known for academics, so that's where we make our bread, everything else is just gravy.

You've made your mark in hockey and have built a great program, now it is time to move up. I respect the first few years of your success, but the longer STA stays in A, the more that gets eroded. For a school in STA's situation, Class A should only be used as a stepping stone, not a crutch.

[HappyHockeyFan]

I think you have to allow opt ups. If a team wants to test themselves against the big schools, by all means let them.

I can respect that thought, but it has been brought up by myself and a few other posters that if you don't allow opt ups than you wouldn't see the success and concern that surround privates. No one really cares or whines about who gets 2nd place after all. If the small town programs are good enough, then the big schools will agree to play them in the regular season. You do see this in the girls high school hockey season. I agree that is adds to the drama of the state tourny, seeing a team like Roseau compete for the state title. When I jump off the band wagon is once all these top level A teams leave for AA and we are left with a tournament that is dominated by privates or so watered down that is called the JV tournament by some. I would rather see to great tournaments being played.

I see what you are saying, but if the choices are:
1. Force A schools that want to challenge themselves against the biggest and best down to A.
or
2. Force what are essentially AA schools to stop beating on teams that can't match their enrollment access up to AA.

Then I will take the 2nd option, hands down.

And who is it calling the A tournament a JV tournament? AA fans. The A tournament is for A teams and their fans, and if AA fans don't enjoy it, they don't have to watch it. The AA tourney will still be there for them to get their varsity fix.

There happen to be plenty of AA fans on this message board that like the A tourney, and they would like it just as much and maybe even more if the dominating A privates were removed.

I completely agree with this statement, I would very much enjoy watching the A tourney without the privates, overall skill would be less but I would enjoy seeing the small town spirit as these teams battled it out.

[rainier]

just a question...what about the privates that essentially are bad at hockey and don't win anything year in and year out? Is every private school reloading with 6 or 7 blue chippers a year? The private schools have no guarantee anyone is coming in, not all of them.

Here's how I think this problem could be addressed:
1. All private schools are placed in AA.

2. All private schools can petition to be in A, and then the A (and AA coaches too if you think that would work better) coaches will vote on if they feel that team is suited for A. This way the unsuccessful A privates will be allowed to stay in A, helping them to have some success and build a better program. And the privates that are clearly suited to AA will stay in AA. As I said before, I think this is a totally reasonable "price" the privates would have to pay given that they have the ability to circumvent traditional enrollment/talent ratios.

Do you think this would work?

[rainier]

I can respect that thought, but it has been brought up by myself and a few other posters that if you don't allow opt ups than you wouldn't see the success and concern that surround privates. No one really cares or whines about who gets 2nd place after all. If the small town programs are good enough, then the big schools will agree to play them in the regular season. You do see this in the girls high school hockey season. I agree that is adds to the drama of the state tourny, seeing a team like Roseau compete for the state title. When I jump off the band wagon is once all these top level A teams leave for AA and we are left with a tournament that is dominated by privates or so watered down that is called the JV tournament by some. I would rather see to great tournaments being played.

I see what you are saying, but if the choices are:
1. Force A schools that want to challenge themselves against the biggest and best down to A.
or
2. Force what are essentially AA schools to stop beating on teams that can't match their enrollment access up to AA.

Then I will take the 2nd option, hands down.

And who is it calling the A tournament a JV tournament? AA fans. The A tournament is for A teams and their fans, and if AA fans don't enjoy it, they don't have to watch it. The AA tourney will still be there for them to get their varsity fix.

There happen to be plenty of AA fans on this message board that like the A tourney, and they would like it just as much and maybe even more if the dominating A privates were removed.

I completely agree with this statement, I would very much enjoy watching the A tourney without the privates, overall skill would be less but I would enjoy seeing the small town spirit as these teams battled it out.

Thank you, I know plenty more AA fans such as yourself feel this way.

I watch the AA tourney also, not because there is more skill, but because of the stories behind the teams, the traditional powers (East, H-M, Moorhead, Edina), the upstarts building tradition (Eagan, MG), the team with the state best player (LS), and yes, the team everyone loves to hate (BSM).

HS hockey is fun to watch, period.

[MHGr8ness]

Just curious, how many more Breck or STA titles would it take before it really became ridiculous that they still played A hockey?

0 more. It already is...

Just curious, how many more titles before someone else wants it bad enough they come in and take it? Mahtomedi did it twice in 4A; never heard any whining from their fans. Hermantown is the favorite this year and even their fans whine.

I find it hilarious that the team that you credit for taking it away is also your example for a team that could/should be AA.

[HShockeywatcher]

So if you're a private school that gets students from this magical pool it's bad, but if you're a public school, isn't okay. I get it; instead of actually making sense, we just want to complain.

I'll tell you what the magical talent pool is: IT IS ALL THE COMMUNITIES THE STA PLAYERS CAME FROM.

Only applies to ONE school

[HShockeywatcher]

0 more. It already is...

Just curious, how many more titles before someone else wants it bad enough they come in and take it? Mahtomedi did it twice in 4A; never heard any whining from their fans. Hermantown is the favorite this year and even their fans whine.

I find it hilarious that the team that you credit for taking it away is also your example for a team that could/should be AA.

According to the one who knows all, they are an A school and don't "draw" students from anywhere outside of Mahtomedi, so they are right where they should be. Unless of course, they want to move up.

It just keeps getting better.

[Mr.DudeGuy]

Why don't we just put each team in their own separate class? That way everyone can win the State Tournament

[MHGr8ness]

Just curious, how many more titles before someone else wants it bad enough they come in and take it? Mahtomedi did it twice in 4A; never heard any whining from their fans. Hermantown is the favorite this year and even their fans whine.

I find it hilarious that the team that you credit for taking it away is also your example for a team that could/should be AA.

According to the one who knows all, they are an A school and don't "draw" students from anywhere outside of Mahtomedi, so they are right where they should be. Unless of course, they want to move up.

It just keeps getting better.

I just thought it was funny. What a coincidence.

[icehornet]

The fact is if you ask MN high school hockey fans, coaches, and administrators the majority (by a wide margin) would agree that St. Thomas, Breck, and a handful of others should opt up. While I don't know if privates should automatically be mandated to be in AA I definitely think there should be a forced opt up after a specified number of state titles (when it's apparent they have a significant advantage over their Class A peers.) Most schools realize this on their own, whether they're public or private, but you'll always get some that want to pad their trophy case and stroke their ego. Are they breaking any rules? No, but is it worth losing your integrity....to some it is.