Top 75 High Schools teams of all-time

[darkhorse]

At the start of any year, the goal for most programs is to win their classes title. Personally, I would say that Triton (for example) probably has one of the top all around football programs in the state in recent years. Would they compete for a 5A title? No, but they aren't a 5 team.

This quote is the difference between what you are looking for and what this list actually is. The only way what you are saying would be relevant is if this were ranking the teams specifically by class, a period of time, or by some other category. In the Triton example you stated "in recent years." If one list of the all-time top football programs in the state were put together would you expect Triton to be given a favorable ranking due to their recent success? It's comparing apples to oranges.

This has been a great read Lee, thank you for all the time you put in to it.

[TTpuckster]

It's amazing how accurate and right these rankings seem to be. This is a fun list and brings back memories of these great teams, their players & coaches and their state tournament successes. The final four must be 1. Edina/Edina East, 2. Roseau, 3. Jefferson, 4. Hill-Murray.

Close, but I think that the extended success of HM will prevail and The final four will be 1. Edina/Edina East, 2. Roseau, 3. Hill-Murray, 4. Jefferson.

The three greens on top.
I'm not sure if it will be Edina or Roseau at #1, but Edina has been more consistent over the years whereas, Roseau, being the small town that it is, has had some lean years in there.

[luckyEPDad]

It's amazing how accurate and right these rankings seem to be. This is a fun list and brings back memories of these great teams, their players & coaches and their state tournament successes. The final four must be 1. Edina/Edina East, 2. Roseau, 3. Jefferson, 4. Hill-Murray.

Close, but I think that the extended success of HM will prevail and The final four will be 1. Edina/Edina East, 2. Roseau, 3. Hill-Murray, 4. Jefferson.

The three greens on top.
I'm not sure if it will be Edina or Roseau at #1, but Edina has been more consistent over the years whereas, Roseau, being the small town that it is, has had some lean years in there.

Shouldn't be close at all. Edina has more tournament appearances, more tournament wins, and more wins during the highest point era.

Don't dismiss Bloomington Jefferson. I was astounded to see that Kennedy or Jefferson (mostly Jefferson) was in the state tournament every year starting in 1980 and ending in 1998. Were they the only two teams in their section?

[karl(east)]

It's amazing how accurate and right these rankings seem to be. This is a fun list and brings back memories of these great teams, their players & coaches and their state tournament successes. The final four must be 1. Edina/Edina East, 2. Roseau, 3. Jefferson, 4. Hill-Murray.

Close, but I think that the extended success of HM will prevail and The final four will be 1. Edina/Edina East, 2. Roseau, 3. Hill-Murray, 4. Jefferson.

The three greens on top.
I'm not sure if it will be Edina or Roseau at #1, but Edina has been more consistent over the years whereas, Roseau, being the small town that it is, has had some lean years in there.

Shouldn't be close at all. Edina has more tournament appearances, more tournament wins, and more wins during the highest point era.

Don't dismiss Bloomington Jefferson. I was astounded to see that Kennedy or Jefferson (mostly Jefferson) was in the state tournament every year starting in 1980 and ending in 1998. Were they the only two teams in their section?

Roseau has 33 appearances; Edina has 33 if we combine Edina, Edina East, and Edina West. So unless they are all lumped together, Roseau does have the edge in that stat. But yes, the Hornets should be #1.

Also, Apple Valley won Section 5 in 1996. But that was still a very impressive run by the Bloomingtons. Amazing how times have changed; Kennedy has now fallen off the map, and though Jefferson is still relevant, it's now been 6 years since their last tourney appearance, and they've only made 1 of the past 9.
During the 80s, Section 5 included the Bloomingtons, the slowly dying Minneapolis city programs, the private schools people like to complain about nowadays, back before they were good, and a couple of unlucky outliers (Litchfield, Willmar). Breck, Blake, and MPLS SW ususally were the better "other" teams. BSM and AHA weren't very relevant. Edina moved into Section 5 during the 2-tier experiment, during the years when no one was going to beat Jefferson. Once they settled on A and AA, the section included almost entirely Lake teams--Bloomingtons, Apple Valley, Eagan, Burnsville, and a few others.

I am still completely failing to understand the point about weighting the AA achievements of teams small enough to be in A as if they were A achievements. Are you trying to say their achievements should not be judged based on who they beat? Duluth East getting 2nd place this year by beating Edina, WBL, GR, and Elk River to get to the title game should be given the same weight as Hermantown beating Hibbing, Alexandria, Rogers, and SCC just because East is small enough to be in A? There is no way I can agree with that.

[east hockey]

#4: Bloomington Jefferson

330.98 pts
--5 state titles
--16 state tournaments


Quick trivia: Jefferson has never lost a state championship game (5-0). Their three straight state titles from 1992-94 has been matched by only two other teams. They were also very strong in the 1980’s with seven trips to state and two titles. They are #1 in points in both the 80’s and 90’s. Jefferson has been down (by Jefferson standards) since 2000, going to state just three times and finishing no higher than fourth. A “down” decade for Jefferson is still better than most teams’ “up” decades.

[TTpuckster]

[quote="karl(eastRoseau has 33 appearances; Edina has 33 if we combine Edina, Edina East, and Edina West. So unless they are all lumped together, Roseau does have the edge in that stat. But yes, the Hornets should be #1.

Also, Apple Valley won Section 5 in 1996. But that was still a very impressive run by the Bloomingtons. Amazing how times have changed; Kennedy has now fallen off the map, and though Jefferson is still relevant, it's now been 6 years since their last tourney appearance, and they've only made 1 of the past 9.
During the 80s, Section 5 included the Bloomingtons, the slowly dying Minneapolis city programs, the private schools people like to complain about nowadays, back before they were good, and a couple of unlucky outliers (Litchfield, Willmar). Breck, Blake, and MPLS SW ususally were the better "other" teams. BSM and AHA weren't very relevant. Edina moved into Section 5 during the 2-tier experiment, during the years when no one was going to beat Jefferson. Once they settled on A and AA, the section included almost entirely Lake teams--Bloomingtons, Apple Valley, Eagan, Burnsville, and a few others.

I am still completely failing to understand the point about weighting the AA achievements of teams small enough to be in A as if they were A achievements. Are you trying to say their achievements should not be judged based on who they beat? Duluth East getting 2nd place this year by beating Edina, WBL, GR, and Elk River to get to the title game should be given the same weight as Hermantown beating Hibbing, Alexandria, Rogers, and SCC just because East is small enough to be in A? There is no way I can agree with that.[/quote]


And, I seem to remember a Bloomington Lincoln school that was pretty darn good too. I know they made it to state at least once in the 70's and had many good teams after that. Good thing that back in the 70's,80's, and 90's that Bloomington wasn't just one school!!!

[luckyEPDad]

I am still completely failing to understand the point about weighting the AA achievements of teams small enough to be in A as if they were A achievements. Are you trying to say their achievements should not be judged based on who they beat? Duluth East getting 2nd place this year by beating Edina, WBL, GR, and Elk River to get to the title game should be given the same weight as Hermantown beating Hibbing, Alexandria, Rogers, and SCC just because East is small enough to be in A? There is no way I can agree with that.

Not what I meant. Once you arrive at an A/AA weighting it should be applied based on the class you compete in. My question is "For the purposes of computing an A/AA weighting, how should you treat schools that opt up?"

Lets say that the bottom 40 or so A teams opt up to AA. This will improve the record of A schools playing against AA schools and would increase your A/AA weighting. The relative talent level of teams advancing to state remains unchanged. Depending on your view, the artificial notch in the A talent curve skews the data to give incorrect results.

There aren't that many A schools that opt up, but they would all be among the best A teams if they had remained. An artificial notch in the data (albeit a small one). Someone mentioned only using head-to-head records of A and AA teams advancing to the state tournament. Sorting the data that way would be laborious and I think the numbers would be too small to be statistically significant.

I should make it clear that I don't have a problem with the .36. It "felt" low (real scientific, huh) and that lead me to wonder how it was derived. No complaints, just curiosity.

Can't believe I missed Apple Valley in 96. The Apple Valley/Duluth East 96 semi was only mentioned about 200 times this year during the state tournament telecast.

[luckyEPDad]

And, I seem to remember a Bloomington Lincoln school that was pretty darn good too. I know they made it to state at least once in the 70's and had many good teams after that. Good thing that back in the 70's,80's, and 90's that Bloomington wasn't just one school!!!

That would be a crime. I look at the 3000+ kids going to Eden Prairie HS and think how much better it would be to have two schools with more opportunities, smaller classes, less crowding. Sure it would cost more, but I think EP could afford it. Lakeville and Woodbury were smart.

[karl(east)]

I am still completely failing to understand the point about weighting the AA achievements of teams small enough to be in A as if they were A achievements. Are you trying to say their achievements should not be judged based on who they beat? Duluth East getting 2nd place this year by beating Edina, WBL, GR, and Elk River to get to the title game should be given the same weight as Hermantown beating Hibbing, Alexandria, Rogers, and SCC just because East is small enough to be in A? There is no way I can agree with that.

Not what I meant. Once you arrive at an A/AA weighting it should be applied based on the class you compete in. My question is "For the purposes of computing an A/AA weighting, how should you treat schools that opt up?"

Lets say that the bottom 40 or so A teams opt up to AA. This will improve the record of A schools playing against AA schools and would increase your A/AA weighting. The relative talent level of teams advancing to state remains unchanged. Depending on your view, the artificial notch in the A talent curve skews the data to give incorrect results.

There aren't that many A schools that opt up, but they would all be among the best A teams if they had remained. An artificial notch in the data (albeit a small one). Someone mentioned only using head-to-head records of A and AA teams advancing to the state tournament. Sorting the data that way would be laborious and I think the numbers would be too small to be statistically significant.

I should make it clear that I don't have a problem with the .36. It "felt" low (real scientific, huh) and that lead me to wonder how it was derived. No complaints, just curiosity.

Can't believe I missed Apple Valley in 96. The Apple Valley/Duluth East 96 semi was only mentioned about 200 times this year during the state tournament telecast.

OK, I think I get it now. I guess this is why I personally think the achievements of A teams should be weighed roughly against the probability that they would win a AA section, not from a giant sample of head-to-head AA vs. A records (as I tried to explain a page or two ago).

[BodyShots]

You don't compare apples to oranges, and you shouldn't compare AA to A.

[karl(east)]

You don't compare apples to oranges, and you shouldn't compare AA to A.

There are definitely times when they should be kept apart. (There's a reason I only rank AA teams during the season, and it's not because I look down upon A hockey.) But there are enough games between the two that we can develop some standard of comparison. While we need to be aware of the limitations of something like PS2, it does allow us to judge A vs. AA by the same criteria.

If we want to continue living in metaphor-land, they may be apples and oranges, and there are things we cannot compare easily, or at least not with the available tools. We may not be able to compare taste or flavor, but we can at least compare their nutritional value. Comparison has its limitations, but it is not a fruitless task. (Pun intended)

[PuckU126]

And, I seem to remember a Bloomington Lincoln school that was pretty darn good too. I know they made it to state at least once in the 70's and had many good teams after that. Good thing that back in the 70's,80's, and 90's that Bloomington wasn't just one school!!!

That would be a crime. I look at the 3000+ kids going to Eden Prairie HS and think how much better it would be to have two schools with more opportunities, smaller classes, less crowding. Sure it would cost more, but I think EP could afford it. Lakeville and Woodbury were smart.

I recall in the paper Lakeville decided to close a school and release teachers because they couldn't afford those luxuries for the students.

The economy's current condition is making everything fiscally difficult for everyone.

[HShockeywatcher]

The 0.36 was derived from Class A teams winning 26.5% of the PageStat matchups. Thus, (.26.5/(1-.26.5))=.36 (actually .361 but I rounded down)

Lee

Comparing all the Class A teams to all the Class AA teams is different than just comparing the team that make it to state. Obviously any ranking of all teams will be top heavy with AA and bottom heavy with A, as it would be in any sport. But when you compare those who make state, I'm sure the numbers would be different.

All that being said, unless there is some personal bias (and I'm not saying there is) against certain teams for playing A, why use any weight? The list is the "top programs", not the "best teams regardless of class." Without the specifics of discussing certain schools, why is a school 1/3 of the program of another for winning the tournament they were playing for?

At the start of any year, the goal for most programs is to win their classes title. Personally, I would say that Triton (for example) probably has one of the top all around football programs in the state in recent years. Would they compete for a 5A title? No, but they aren't a 5 team.

Compare the top teams from Class A vs the top teams from Class AA in the PageStat rankings. Even at the top, it's top-heavy with Class AA. You're putting a lot of words out there, with no real substance. No real evidence other than cherry picking a few stats here and there which fit what you want to believe.

Lee

Ultimately it comes down to the list not being the top programs, but the programs with the best teams. Which is fine, and what I was asking about. I didn't want to clutter the board with stats (substance), but I guess I will.

You take a year like 2007, where #3 Roseau beat #25 Blaine, #23 Century and #12 Rapids for their title, while #11 Hermantown beat #19 Little Falls, #30 Warroad and #13 Duluth Marshall for their title.
Roseau played a team averaged #20 while Hermantown averaged #20.67.
Sure, it's not usually this close. 2005 is decent example.

As I said, there are always going to be teams ranked low that make the A tournament. Playing them doesn't suddenly make you a worse team.

The opening of this thread says that this is a list based on "Only results from MSHSL-sanctioned state tournaments are considered." If you are only considering the state tournaments, the winner of A went 3-0 and the winner of AA went 3-0. Using PageStat2 is now using the regular season, which is not a 'MSHSL-sanctioned state tournament'.

Games are not played on paper.
Would Hermantown have won state in AA in 2007? I doubt it but possibly; does that make them less of a program?
Had Warroad been in AA in 2005, it would be a toss up whether they would've made state, but had they, they probably would've made the finals. Even after playing much worse teams at state, I will admit, they were #4 in PageStat2, only 1 spot and .03 behind the AA champs, and were 3 spots and .15 behind the top ranked PageStat2 team, who they tied during the season.
There are not many Class A teams I would count out from winning their perspective Class AA section in the last decade.

I don't mean any disrespect in anyway, simply giving my opinion which comes from studying the numbers a lot. When you are saying that one program is basically one third of another program because they play in a different division, even though their program's goal is to win their division, as they did, seems quite silly to me.

If you are talking about the best teams, while only using state results, you'd miss a lot of good teams/programs. If you are only using state tournament results, factoring in the regular season seems odd. As I've said before, it's a great list, and I've enjoyed watching it grow.

[luckyEPDad]

And, I seem to remember a Bloomington Lincoln school that was pretty darn good too. I know they made it to state at least once in the 70's and had many good teams after that. Good thing that back in the 70's,80's, and 90's that Bloomington wasn't just one school!!!

That would be a crime. I look at the 3000+ kids going to Eden Prairie HS and think how much better it would be to have two schools with more opportunities, smaller classes, less crowding. Sure it would cost more, but I think EP could afford it. Lakeville and Woodbury were smart.

I recall in the paper Lakeville decided to close a school and release teachers because they couldn't afford those luxuries for the students.

The economy's current condition is making everything fiscally difficult for everyone.

Lakeville is closing an elementary school (they have 9), not one of the high schools. They built too many schools, possibly expecting their population to grow at the crazy rate it has until recently. Now they have too much elementary capacity and the enrollment is starting to drop. From what I read the closing isn't directly related to the economy.

[karl(east)]

I don't mean any disrespect in anyway, simply giving my opinion which comes from studying the numbers a lot. When you are saying that one program is basically one third of another program because they play in a different division, even though their program's goal is to win their division, as they did, seems quite silly to me.

If you are talking about the best teams, while only using state results, you'd miss a lot of good teams/programs. If you are only using state tournament results, factoring in the regular season seems odd. As I've said before, it's a great list, and I've enjoyed watching it grow.

I think this is a valid concern, but I also think the decision to only use State results stems from a simple lack of information. I suspect if Lee could have, he would have used regular season results as well, going all the way back to 1945. But those don't exist--even section tournament data is spotty. So we have to use state tournaments. I believe Lee only brought PS2 in because it gives a way to measure AA vs. A. And if you do that, you end up with A teams winning sections about 10% of the time. That's not disrespecting A hockey--it just is what it is. I will agree that it sounds brutal to say "your A title is only worth X percent of a AA title," but within this sort of study we have to find a proxy value to plug in there. PS2 gives us probably the most concrete option. It's easy to note the shortcomings of that proxy, but what's the alternative, other than giving up and not trying to do it (which sounds like lousy science to me)?

We have PS2 numbers for nearly every year of A hockey. If we wanted to get really technical, we could measure the strength of the A field in any given year (which has varied quite a bit over the years) relative to AA, and give each A title/other achievement a corresponding weight. That gets very complicated, but to get "accurate" results, that's the sort of thing you have to do. (The value of AA title could also fluctuate in any given year relative to the strength of the A field.)

[PuckU126]

That would be a crime. I look at the 3000+ kids going to Eden Prairie HS and think how much better it would be to have two schools with more opportunities, smaller classes, less crowding. Sure it would cost more, but I think EP could afford it. Lakeville and Woodbury were smart.

I recall in the paper Lakeville decided to close a school and release teachers because they couldn't afford those luxuries for the students.

The economy's current condition is making everything fiscally difficult for everyone.

Lakeville is closing an elementary school (they have 9), not one of the high schools. They built too many schools, possibly expecting their population to grow at the crazy rate it has until recently. Now they have too much elementary capacity and the enrollment is starting to drop. From what I read the closing isn't directly related to the economy.

Sure it is. They needed to cut their budget because the city couldn't afford to fund all of the schools because of the economy.

Lakeville is a prime example of a city that is tightening it's belt to budget their funds during this difficult time. I thought I heard the high school hockey players may have to pay for some of the teams expenses that are normally paid for by the school. Can anyone confirm that?

Getting back to EP and making more schools, its a great idea; however, the timing is off right now. No cities have millions of dollars to invest (or choose not too). Down the road I am sure something like that will have to happen.

[east hockey]

#3: Hill-Murray

402.51 pts
--3 state titles
--24 state tournaments

That Hill-Murray has accumulated all those accomplishments since their entry into the MSHSL tournament in 1974-75 is even more impressive. They have been to State in 24 of those 37 seasons, winning it all in 1983 (a perfect 28-0 season), 1991 and 2008. Their six runner-up finishes is second only to Moorhead. They are 26-21 in championship bracket games, 36-31 overall. Only five times have they gone two-and-out. In each decade, they have been in the Top Five in points since they joined the MSHSL, including the 70’s when they only had five seasons to accumulate points. They are the definition of consistency. The Pioneers have also failed to make their section finals only eight times and have been eliminated in their section quarterfinals only once.

[east hockey]

#2 and #1 will be unveiled tomorrow night! After that, I'll have some comments about how points were awarded, the Class AA/A thing (which always irritates somebody no matter how I slant it, of course. ) and what I'm thinking of doing with the project next season.

Lee

[east hockey]

Ultimately it comes down to the list not being the top programs, but the programs with the best teams. Which is fine, and what I was asking about. I didn't want to clutter the board with stats (substance), but I guess I will.

You take a year like 2007, where #3 Roseau beat #25 Blaine, #23 Century and #12 Rapids for their title, while #11 Hermantown beat #19 Little Falls, #30 Warroad and #13 Duluth Marshall for their title.
Roseau played a team averaged #20 while Hermantown averaged #20.67.
Sure, it's not usually this close. 2005 is decent example.

As I said, there are always going to be teams ranked low that make the A tournament. Playing them doesn't suddenly make you a worse team.

The opening of this thread says that this is a list based on "Only results from MSHSL-sanctioned state tournaments are considered." If you are only considering the state tournaments, the winner of A went 3-0 and the winner of AA went 3-0. Using PageStat2 is now using the regular season, which is not a 'MSHSL-sanctioned state tournament'.

Games are not played on paper.
Would Hermantown have won state in AA in 2007? I doubt it but possibly; does that make them less of a program?
Had Warroad been in AA in 2005, it would be a toss up whether they would've made state, but had they, they probably would've made the finals. Even after playing much worse teams at state, I will admit, they were #4 in PageStat2, only 1 spot and .03 behind the AA champs, and were 3 spots and .15 behind the top ranked PageStat2 team, who they tied during the season.
There are not many Class A teams I would count out from winning their perspective Class AA section in the last decade.

I don't mean any disrespect in anyway, simply giving my opinion which comes from studying the numbers a lot. When you are saying that one program is basically one third of another program because they play in a different division, even though their program's goal is to win their division, as they did, seems quite silly to me.

If you are talking about the best teams, while only using state results, you'd miss a lot of good teams/programs. If you are only using state tournament results, factoring in the regular season seems odd. As I've said before, it's a great list, and I've enjoyed watching it grow.

Two points:

1. Of course it's about the top teams, not top programs. Take another look at the topic title. That's sort of a tip off on what this is about...

2. You're cherry picking again. You're using exceptions to try to refute the rule. From a statistical standpoint, these few examples you've laid out have no relevance compared to the thousands of comparisons which led to the 0.36 value.

And I don't know why I'm even arguing with you. You just keep spinning away...and you're wrong. Maybe I'll let Karl have the fun from now on.

Lee

[Pioneerprideguy]

#3: Hill-Murray

402.51 pts
--3 state titles
--24 state tournaments

That Hill-Murray has accumulated all those accomplishments since their entry into the MSHSL tournament in 1974-75 is even more impressive. They have been to State in 24 of those 37 seasons, winning it all in 1983 (a perfect 28-0 season), 1991 and 2008. Their six runner-up finishes is second only to Moorhead. They are 26-21 in championship bracket games, 36-31 overall. Only five times have they gone two-and-out. In each decade, they have been in the Top Five in points since they joined the MSHSL, including the 70’s when they only had five seasons to accumulate points. They are the definition of consistency. The Pioneers have also failed to make their section finals only eight times and have been eliminated in their section quarterfinals only once.

[old goalie85]

I would have thought they would be one higher.

[east hockey]

I would have thought they would be one higher.

The two ahead of them have some pretty compelling credentials.

Lee

[karl(east)]

And I don't know why I'm even arguing with you. You just keep spinning away...and you're wrong. Maybe I'll let Karl have the fun from now on.

Lee

Oh thanks, what an honor for me.

[MNHockeyFan]

#3: Hill-Murray

402.51 pts
--3 state titles
--24 state tournaments

That Hill-Murray has accumulated all those accomplishments since their entry into the MSHSL tournament in 1974-75 is even more impressive. They have been to State in 24 of those 37 seasons, winning it all in 1983 (a perfect 28-0 season), 1991 and 2008. Their six runner-up finishes is second only to Moorhead. They are 26-21 in championship bracket games, 36-31 overall. Only five times have they gone two-and-out. In each decade, they have been in the Top Five in points since they joined the MSHSL, including the 70’s when they only had five seasons to accumulate points. They are the definition of consistency. The Pioneers have also failed to make their section finals only eight times and have been eliminated in their section quarterfinals only once.

Guess your uniform has to be some shade of green to be in the Top 3!

[HShockeywatcher]

I don't mean any disrespect in anyway, simply giving my opinion which comes from studying the numbers a lot. When you are saying that one program is basically one third of another program because they play in a different division, even though their program's goal is to win their division, as they did, seems quite silly to me.

If you are talking about the best teams, while only using state results, you'd miss a lot of good teams/programs. If you are only using state tournament results, factoring in the regular season seems odd. As I've said before, it's a great list, and I've enjoyed watching it grow.

I think this is a valid concern, but I also think the decision to only use State results stems from a simple lack of information. I suspect if Lee could have, he would have used regular season results as well, going all the way back to 1945. But those don't exist--even section tournament data is spotty. So we have to use state tournaments. I believe Lee only brought PS2 in because it gives a way to measure AA vs. A. And if you do that, you end up with A teams winning sections about 10% of the time. That's not disrespecting A hockey--it just is what it is. I will agree that it sounds brutal to say "your A title is only worth X percent of a AA title," but within this sort of study we have to find a proxy value to plug in there. PS2 gives us probably the most concrete option. It's easy to note the shortcomings of that proxy, but what's the alternative, other than giving up and not trying to do it (which sounds like lousy science to me)?

We have PS2 numbers for nearly every year of A hockey. If we wanted to get really technical, we could measure the strength of the A field in any given year (which has varied quite a bit over the years) relative to AA, and give each A title/other achievement a corresponding weight. That gets very complicated, but to get "accurate" results, that's the sort of thing you have to do. (The value of AA title could also fluctuate in any given year relative to the strength of the A field.)

So:

1. Without opinions of public/private brought up, a A program who wins the state title is a worse program than one that won the AA title? (this question has been answered by Lee)

2. Why even distinguish A/AA? Why not simply distinguish specific teams?
-I gave an example of a year where the A champ and AA champ were very close in who they played. Why not, in that year, treat them very similarly?
-On the same note, if a team gets paired up with teams from 3A and 6A in the first two rounds, for example, are they then a worse team because of who they were paired up with?

Two points:

1. Of course it's about the top teams, not top programs. Take another look at the topic title. That's sort of a tip off on what this is about...

2. You're cherry picking again. You're using exceptions to try to refute the rule. From a statistical standpoint, these few examples you've laid out have no relevance compared to the thousands of comparisons which led to the 0.36 value.

And I don't know why I'm even arguing with you. You just keep spinning away...and you're wrong. Maybe I'll let Karl have the fun from now on.

Lee

1. "top team" is broad...sorry for asking a question.

2. I'm not cherry picking anything. Again, not only did I not want to take up any more space than I did, but I don't have the time to analyze all the details of every year. The A/AA split is only 15 years old (including this year). I will give you the 3 year stretch of 98-99, 99-00, and 00-01, but outside of those three years there has been at least one A team toward the top of the rankings and generally multiple others around the top. Also, many of the AA teams are from similar sections and only one makes state, when you take out those who don't make state it also looks different. If you are only using "results from MSHSL-sanctioned state tournaments" in 15 years there won't be thousands of comparisons, as you say.

I didn't know I was arguing with anyone. I gave my opinion, you said I didn't post specifics, so I did. That's not an argument, nor will I get into one. You're the one making the list, the list which I have complimented, I feel the weight is a bit low (and should be used on a case by case basis, not on a whole), but that is all up to you to decide, as it's your list. I gave my opinion, that's all.