Is Rochester Red the 12th team in the D9 Peewee A playoffs?

[frederick61]

I wanted to bring this thread back to the point. This is where from my prospective that discussion ended. I posted this earlier. I would ask is there any other comments?

I believe the grievance has to be filed so that Minnesota Hockey can make a ruling. Remember, Minnesota Hockey regulates more then peewee A hockey. At times some districts will marry their leagues at a level for a year or so because of numbers.

An example is the D3 U12A league which has D3 and D5 teams. Often the hybrid league will play their own "district playoff". The D3 league is called League 3 and League 3 will send teams to a regional play down. All this is coordinated by Minnesota Hockey. This is done to allow an area where a particular level of players and teams is down to participate. An area in this case means more then one district.

In general, Minnesota Hockey lets the District Directors work out what they want because the eligibility issue varies from level of play to level of play based on numbers. I have been told in the past that it is their policy to handle issues of eligibility via grievance.

A grievance can be filed a single person who is involved. Unfortunately, associations and people involved in D9 had only four days to file such a grievance because of the manner in which D9 handled the insertion of the Rochester Red into the D9 tourney.

The next logical candidate to file a grievance is D8 or those participating in the South Regional. The one filing the grievance would simple ask the Red to be declared ineligible because they did not play a D9 regular season schedule. The Red were offered the opportunity to play a D9 schedule, but turned it down.

Minnesota Hockey can then decide the matter.

[observer]

Notice you still haven't answered my hypo!

Not worth discussing because Edina and EP are members of D6 and RR is a member of D9. Member is the key word there.

Out of a 40+ game PeeWee A schedule certainly playing 4-10 games against other District members won't be as painful as you think. D9 isn't the only District where this occurs as has been pointed out. Up Nort there's huge discrepancies in ability between teams and all of their opponents are 1-2 hours away. Be supportive of your other District members efforts to improve their own programs (I know you've said you're a metro coach not a D9 coach) You carefully fill out the other 35 games with appropriate tournaments and appropriate non-District opponents. The goal is raise the level of play in the entire District and RR should help set the bar.

I'll add that I think they should be allowed to play in their own District tournament, and earn a berth to Regions, but they didn't handle it very well.

[Concerned Hockey Coach]

ARTICLE 6 - AUTHORITY - APPEALS - SUSPENSIONS - COURT ACTIONS
A. Authority: The Affiliate or local governing body has the authority to make decisions in the management
of their local program. In the event of a dispute, the Affiliate or vested authority shall promptly and
equitably attempt to resolve the grievance, allowing affected parties to have input which may require
conducting a hearing.
B. Grievable Decision: If a decision is viewed to be a violation of existing rules, that decision may be
appealed. In all appeals, the appealing party is required to establish the merits of the appeal.
C. Appeals: Any member, team, league or local association who has a standing in the matter may appeal a
grievable decision, in writing, to the District Director for a period of ten (10) calendar days, after a
decision was rendered or a hearing refused within its own league or association. Such appeal must state
that it is an appeal, state the rule that is claimed to be violated, and why the grieved action is a violation.
The District Director shall make a written determination within twelve (12) calendar days of receipt of a
valid appeal. The decision of the District Director may be appealed, in writing, for a period of ten (10)
calendar days to the cognizant Maroon or Gold Vice President, who will issue a written ruling within
twelve (12) calendar days. Any decision of the Divisional Vice President may be appealed for a period of
ten (10) calendar days to the MH Grievance Committee which must make a written determination within
twelve (12) calendar days of receipt of a written appeal. The Grievance Committee shall, at its option,
make its determination using any of the following procedures:
1. Hold preliminary fact-finding meetings involving two or more of the Grievance Committee members.
2. Use the mail or conference calls as procedures, involving the full committee, to render either
preliminary or final determinations of the grievance.
3. Hold a hearing in situations where the facts of the case are in dispute.
The decision of the Grievance Committee shall be final except as noted in paragraph G. of this Article.


Frederick, please advise which "existing rule" D8 should appeal under, well some theoretical D8 grieved person who feels slighted by having to play Rochester Red.

[Concerned Hockey Coach]

Notice you still haven't answered my hypo!

Not worth discussing because Edina and EP are members of D6 and RR is a member of D9. Member is the key word there.

Out of a 40+ game PeeWee A schedule certainly playing 4-10 games against other District members won't be as painful as you think. D9 isn't the only District where this occurs as has been pointed out. Up Nort there's huge discrepancies in ability between teams and all of their opponents are 1-2 hours away. Be supportive of your other District members efforts to improve their own programs (I know you've said you're a metro coach not a D9 coach) You carefully fill out the other 35 games with appropriate tournaments and appropriate non-District opponents. The goal is raise the level of play in the entire District and RR should help set the bar.

I'll add that I think they should be allowed to play in their own District tournament, and earn a berth to Regions, but they didn't handle it very well.

You're a confusing cat Mr. Observer. Btw, Rochester Red scrimmaged Mankato twice. Sounds like they weren't opposed to playing D9 teams that wanted to play them... any other team out there ask but get turned down?

North is slightly different (see previous post all about this subject), since the teams they have to travel to play are much more comparable in size than Rochester is to its district teams... Rochester has 8 PeeWee teams and 9 Bantam teams. You can't expect the small associations to compete year in and year out... not the case up north. Numbers are very similar. And in the case of Duluth, they are half the size and numbers as Rochester hockey and they have Hermantown and Cloquet in their district - teams that consistently compete with the duluth teams.

[Concerned Hockey Coach]

Here's the applicable rule:

B. INTENTION TO ENTER DISTRICT TOURNAMENT - Teams or leagues wishing to participate in state
tournament play-down shall notify their district director no later than December 31 of the playing season.
Each District Director may require any team within his/her district, that desires to enter State Tournament
play-offs, to participate in that district's league play to determine that team's eligibility for such play-offs
according to the rules of that district or league. (Note: Under the provisions of this rule, a District Director may require the district's league to accept a team(s) for participation in that league).

Frederick,

Plainly the only issue is whether Rochester Red notified the district director by December 31st. Other than that, as long as the District Director ok'd it, no "existing rule has been violated", and no grievance can be filed.

It's purposely, and rightfully in my opinion, done that way.

Bark up MN Hockey's tree this summer to change it... now's not the time.

Case Closed.

[frederick61]

Each District Director may require any team within his/her district, that desires to enter State Tournament play-offs, to participate in that district's league play to determine that team's eligibility for such play-offs
according to the rules of that district or league. (Note: Under the provisions of this rule, a District Director may require the district's league to accept a team(s) for participation in that league).

Historically, the District Directors have refused participation in the district playoffs if a team does not play in their league. Buffalo and D5 is an example. By filing a grievance, Minnesota Hockey will have to take a stand and resolve the issue. That should be done in the next week.

[Concerned Hockey Coach]

Each District Director may require any team within his/her district, that desires to enter State Tournament play-offs, to participate in that district's league play to determine that team's eligibility for such play-offs
according to the rules of that district or league. (Note: Under the provisions of this rule, a District Director may require the district's league to accept a team(s) for participation in that league).

Historically, the District Directors have refused participation in the district playoffs if a team does not play in their league. Buffalo and D5 is an example. By filing a grievance, Minnesota Hockey will have to take a stand and resolve the issue. That should be done in the next week.

Frederick61 - It's over. I posted the rules. An appeal can only be made when a rule has been violated and the rule allows for what has happened - the D9 Director (a Mankato guy) ok'd Rochester Red's entry into the district playoffs.

MN Hockey has already taken a stand, see their rules. The rule could have stated "All teams that participate in the District Playoff Tournament must have participated in the district regular season" - But it doesn't.

If D5 doesn't want to allow "opt-outs" then fine, they can do so under the rules. But just cause D5 doesn't allow it, or just because any of the other Districts may not allow it, does not mean D9 can't allow it. Rules are rules.

Let's let this one die...

[Mnhockeys]

12 A teams in D9, two of which were Rochester A2's

So, 10 games out of 40 in the District you belong to and should be supportive of. Or play the 4-5 teams that would like the test. You ndo owe to them. I'm surprised you didn't run into some of them at a tournament anyways.

There's various levels of selfishness and sounds like Rochester Red is paticularily selfish.

I'm not with Rochester... for the thousandth time. I coach a team in the cities area.

I highly doubt Rochester is more selfish than any other organization.

Can you imagine an Edina or EP level talent (which Rochester is not always, but which it is close to and competitive with each year) playing in D9 and agreeing to it?

Please recognize that Rochester is in a unique spot and far away from any equal in talent.

Oh my! The way you are defending this thing, only you would still believe you are not with Rochester, wait I mean Roch Red. You know every single details of this thing. You know Roch Red was too good for all D9 teams, maybe too good for the regional teams as well from day one.

You did admit this unique, and unique = abnormal!

"it is done ... It is over! ... Let it die", those are not argument.

If you are not with Red, you should! You have so much for them.

[frederick61]

It is not over, it is just beginning. Minnesota Hockey has relied on District Directors to do the right thing, now they will have to clarify it. If somebody files a grievance that could be done before the D8/D9 playoffs are over (March 1st).

If the Red advance out of D9 and they are ruled ineligible for the regions, then the fourth place team in the play-in game can take the Red's place.

In either case, Minnesota Hockey needs to clarify the rule before next season. I have a hard time believing they would allow teams to be independent all season and then come back into their district playoffs so they can compete for the state title in a situation where the team has been offered and rejected play in the district's own league.

[Concerned Hockey Coach]

Oh my! The way you are defending this thing, only you would still believe you are not with Rochester, wait I mean Roch Red. You know every single details of this thing.

I know every single detail? Please state ONE, just ONE fact that I have asserted as such without citing a source other than myself. You won't find one...

What I have done, is point out that Frederick is off in right field with this one and was likely Jesse Ventura's only audience with his conspiracy talk.

You know Roch Red was too good for all D9 teams, maybe too good for the regional teams as well from day one.

Really? Even Frederick has carte blanche declared a spot for Rochester Red in the regionals... why? Because there is NO way they won't make it! [although I have to admit that would be quite a story and PeeWee hockey is PeeWee hockey!] Mankato was the only team in D9 that could compete with them and they could have chosen to do the same thing as Rochester Red. They didn't, and that's there call, but notice how you don't have any Mankato folks posting on here about how this is a travesty... [Perhaps because the District Director that Fred thinks abused his authority and should be overturned by MN hockey at his prodding - yeah that guy is from Mankato] Mankato played Rochester Red twice so they got the competition and Kudos to Roch Red for recognizing that and playing them.

You did admit this unique, and unique = abnormal!

"it is done ... It is over! ... Let it die", those are not argument.

If you are not with Red, you should! You have so much for them.

The rest doesn't even make sense... where your hatred for Rochester comes from I don't know... strange.

[Concerned Hockey Coach]

I have a hard time believing they would allow teams to be independent all season and then come back into their district playoffs so they can compete for the state title in a situation where the team has been offered and rejected play in the district's own league.

Quote of the century! You have a hard time with this? C'mon... really?

Guess what... the only one trying to change the rules [that have been posted here for all to see] is you Frederick61.

At least cite the place in the rules that Rochester Red and the North Mankato resident District Director that they broke?

Or else just admit that MN hockey allows this and that you have been wrong all along... and that you probably should have just called up the District Director and gotten the scoop from him before you accuse D9 and Rochester of colluding to prevent Northfield from making it to regionals after they worked sooo hard.

[Ugottobekiddingme]

Conflict resolution is on it's way...MN Hock is bringing it's best retiree boardmember back from El Paso to mediate this situation...she is aware of all details and offered opinions within this thread but also willing to bring closure to this situation for all. It will be like nothing ever happened...

[dogeatdog1]

I think what we've learned is you're a young coach without a lot of experience with how things work. And, you're really not even part of the discussion.

My friend, life is about serving others. What can I do for my neighbor. Not, what can I do for myself.

"I'm a better coach than you".... says the old man who tells a "young coach" [is mid 30's young??? I like thinking it is.] who then attempts to moralize him about how life is serving others...

P.S. Deciding issues like player development is all about serving your neighbor hmmm? Interesting idea... how do you implement such a system? Does your team travel down to Rochester each year to make sure they get some good neighborly competition?

AMEN again. sorry but I was trying to quoe observer.... Lets just let this idiot Roch red guy with a 40th seeded team that is all about devlopment get his way (even though he is not from Roch) and the first team in the regional playoff kick their butt 15-0 and then we can all say nice development.... I am out of this discussion until the another car runs by that I can chase!!!!

[fastncrash]

The Kansas City Stars are at the door. Since they have played more D9 teams this year than the Red, they too would like into the D9 playoff's.

That is only a SMALL amount more rediculous than what is happening here.

[HockeyDad41]

Frederick61 - It's over. I posted the rules. An appeal can only be made when a rule has been violated and the rule allows for what has happened - the D9 Director (a Mankato guy) ok'd Rochester Red's entry into the district playoffs.

MN Hockey has already taken a stand, see their rules. The rule could have stated "All teams that participate in the District Playoff Tournament must have participated in the district regular season" - But it doesn't.

If D5 doesn't want to allow "opt-outs" then fine, they can do so under the rules. But just cause D5 doesn't allow it, or just because any of the other Districts may not allow it, does not mean D9 can't allow it. Rules are rules.

Let's let this one die...

Rules are changed all the time. I would not be surprised at all if this one is changed or modified as a result of Rochester Red's and the D9 directors shady backroom maneuvering.

You are very outspoken on this subject, and I find it ironic that you don't have children playing yet. You are possibly missing the vital ingredient of really understanding how this is affecting a lot of people.

Rochester Red's path to this tournament lacks the basic elements of good sportsmanship and fairplay. It's NOT NOT NOT NOT all about development for every family. Once you figure that out you might begin to understand why people are so upset by this move.

Now you can come back with your myopic point of view, and who am I to to say this or that or whatever....... it doesn't matter. Come back in a couple of years when that daughter and future son of yours is playing and see how your opinion of things has changed. We like to call it perspective. You might just understand why an action that is "not against the rules" is still considered about as low as a whale turd.

[Marty McSorely]

Hey Fred why aren't u complaining about Edina only having one A team at Pee Wee's. It's about the same arguement you are making about Rochester.

You've become a pointless idiot!

[dogeatdog1]

Hey Fred why aren't u complaining about Edina only having one A team at Pee Wee's. It's about the same arguement you are making about Rochester.

You've become a pointless idiot!

one would have that arguement if they in fact dominated everyone and blew everyone out by 7-8 goals. They have a competitive team and are not crowned state champs yet. And you still haven't taken my challenge to drop the gloves... you must have been hit in the head one too many times when you were playin in the bigs to make that statement.

[Mnhockeys]

There has been plenty of talk around the rinks about how shady this looks. The other D9 teams had no idea if the Red teams were in districts well into January. I say don't cry sour grapes but next year have Mankato, Owatonna and whoever else wants to play a tougher schedule do as Rochester and play an independent schedule. Don't wayste your time playing Rochester Gold or Black let someone else develope their teams.

Well said.

Fred, you support having Mankato and Owatonna go independent?

Can you at least try to understand what little9BigRed and Fred were trying to say? If Roch Red were allowed to do this, others in D9 may follow. Then what is going to happen with D9? Oh, that is not your business ... yours is the Red.

No one hates the Red, this is about one special team and could be any team.

BTW, you are making them look worse with most of your posts. Can you see people really hope the Red gets whipped now? Thanks to you!

[Concerned Hockey Coach]

Rules are changed all the time. I would not be surprised at all if this one is changed or modified as a result of Rochester Red's and the D9 directors shady backroom maneuvering.

Take a breath dude. Fred is not proposing that the rule be changed, he's alleging that D9 and Rochester Rule have done something that warrants MN hockey stepping in and slapping their wrist... all while never doing the gruntwork of citing a rule that's been broken or calling folks in D9 to find out the scoop.

You are very outspoken on this subject, and I find it ironic that you don't have children playing yet. You are possibly missing the vital ingredient of really understanding how this is affecting a lot of people.

C'mon, I understand knee-jerk reactions to threatening the status quo as much as anyone. I just don't understand why anyone would think that the teams in D9 are owed Rochester Red's presence during the regular season... Rochester placed two teams in the district play, teams that were the talent level as the rest of the teams. It took its best team that is heads and shoulders above the rest and had them play an Independent schedule... oh and newsflash, it scrimmaged the best team in D9 twice so please don't say that Rochester was opposed to playing competitive teams from D9.

Rochester Red's path to this tournament lacks the basic elements of good sportsmanship and fairplay. It's NOT NOT NOT NOT all about development for every family. Once you figure that out you might begin to understand why people are so upset by this move. Now you can come back with your myopic point of view, and who am I to to say this or that or whatever....... it doesn't matter.

Yeah, I admit I don't take well to emotion and arbitrary irrational thought very well... or cites to sportsmanship and fairplay without explaining why sportsmanship or fairplay has been compromised. And yes, it is all about Development AND fun... tell me who isn't have fun and who wasn't developed? Is it really all about forcing a team to play other teams for you? Think about your position.

Come back in a couple of years when that daughter and future son of yours is playing and see how your opinion of things has changed. We like to call it perspective. You might just understand why an action that is "not against the rules" is still considered about as low as a whale turd.

Please don't be active in your association... you are exactly the reason why AAA may have a shot at breaking through here in the winter... ugh.

[Concerned Hockey Coach]

Can you at least try to understand what little9BigRed and Fred were trying to say? If Roch Red were allowed to do this, others in D9 may follow. Then what is going to happen with D9? Oh, that is not your business ... yours is the Red.

No one hates the Red, this is about one special team and could be any team.

BTW, you are making them look worse with most of your posts. Can you see people really hope the Red gets whipped now? Thanks to you!

NEWSFLASH: D9 is WAY, WAY, WAY down at the PeeWee A level. Who else though is at risk of following Rochester Red? Mankato and Owatonna come to mind, but let them decide if they have a team that warrants not playing D9 district play. Rochester has 8-10 PeeWee teams EVERY year. They responsibly need to plan ahead to make sure that its teams are challenged at the level they play. This year they did that by having Gold and Black, two B1 teams if they were up here in the cities, play at the A level. The result, they are the 2nd and 3rd team in the D9 east division. Rochester Red is down from last year, but they still compete with the better teams in PeeWee hockey. They are below or at .500 I believe, but you see, Rochester's goal is not to be 30-10 every year and play bad competition half the time. Kudos for them not focusing on record.

BUT don't blame them for wanting to participate in the end of the year tournament... its not their fault they are in D9, KUDOS to them, and any other association that take the development of its players first approach.

[Concerned Hockey Coach]

Thanks to all who partaked in this discussion. I think the greatest divide here is not necessarily over Rochester Red playing or not playing. I assume no one would want to take the opportunity to play away from the kids on that team.

My passion comes from my worry that MN hockey is about to be runneth over in the coming years by AAA hockey. I have a daughter who is less than one year old and hope to have sons in the game as well. I hope MN hockey provides all kids with the program to challenge and develop players without having to go to AAA, which will undoubtedly begin when the best players (ok, the best players' parents!) decide that MN hockey is not serving their needs. (Think HS kids leaving for juniors! Which MN hockey responded to with elite level leagues and more games etc and most recently allowing single A schools to declare up as AA for only two years rather than four as before)

Rochester's elite players will not sit idly by and be forced into playing 10+ pointless games against teams that Rochester's B1 teams can beat (see what happened this year with Black and Gold)

Rochester and D9 responded creatively and the system is working despite the fact that yes, either Owatonna, Mankato or Northfield will NOT go to Regionals this year.

BUT so won't TWO of the following teams from D6: Edina, EP, MTKA, Burnsville and Prior Lake.

Nothing criminal has happened here folks... just associations taking care of their kids interests. We could all be so lucky.

Thanks for the good times and creating a forum that syncs perfectly with expressly my fear of AAA and how MN hockey will hopefully stay flexible and creative to combat it!

Go MN!

Oh and here's where my motivation comes from... hate Rochester all you want... my guess is that they really don't care about what you people here may think.

I can only hope that I've perhaps opened your mind to possibility that Rochester Red went Independent for reasons that D9 and MN Hockey should applaud and encourage if necessary to save our hockey system here!

Lates

[goldy313]

Give up your I'm not from Rochester, it's more than obvious you are. From the original question you defended Rochester Red, when the question was why did the District allow them in. You also state numerous times District 8 "kicked" rochester out, they didn't, MN Hockey created District 9 out of concerns from teams from District 4 and 8. Did District 8 also kick out Winona and Red Wing? The only people I've ever heard use the term "kicked out" are from Rochester's top teams because nobody else cares. Rochester and Winona were moved from district 4 to 8 out of the same concerns years ago.

If MN Hockey wants to keep district hockey viable then stuff like this can't happen, you can't change the rules mid stream. It's pretty clear nobody thought this through and Rochester Red realized that by not playing in a district they weren't going to be in a district tournament and got that changed. Personally I think districts are a waste of time and money and should just go away, if they want to run a state tournament then have a district tournament like the high schools do. It shouldn't matter who you play in season.

[Concerned Hockey Coach]

Give up your I'm not from Rochester, it's more than obvious you are. From the original question you defended Rochester Red, when the question was why did the District allow them in. You also state numerous times District 8 "kicked" rochester out, they didn't, . . .

If MN Hockey wants to keep district hockey viable then stuff like this can't happen, you can't change the rules mid stream.

I have no idea what happened with the D8 stuff... I think you're confusing me for BadgerBob guy who asserted that they were kicked out.

As far as your last point: Two questions: What rule has been changed mid-stream? (Don't worry, you won't answer this just like Frederick61 won't answer the question of what rule he alleged Rochester broke), and the second, why do you think parents (who are ultimately responsible for their kid's hockey development), will sit idly by in Rochester or anywhere else where their son who made the A team is forced to drive one hour plus 10+ times a year to beat a team that couldn't beat Rochester's B1 team?

Nope... welcome to the future of MN hockey and the introduction of AAA hockey... its about providing options people and proper levels of play.

Go ahead and keep your head in the sand folks...

[the_juiceman]

CHC--if it's about competition, why not schedule more scrimmages (non district games)? Most teams play approx. 16-20 district games, 3-4 tournaments (9-12 games). That's about 30 games. Since there is no official limit to the # of games PW & Bant. can play, schedule non district games against the top teams--Edina, Wayzata, EP, Blaine, Elk River, Duluth East and on & on. They could easily have 20 non-district games. This would surely challenge RR and give them the competition they are looking for, while keeping them in the District they are assigned. RR could work on team skills during the so-called inferior district teams, and then use those skills against the the so-called talented teams in non district games, all the while, setting the RR up for the regions & State tournament that they are pretty sure they will qualify for. Then there would be no big controversy.

[Concerned Hockey Coach]

CHC--if it's about competition, why not schedule more scrimmages (non district games)? Most teams play approx. 16-20 district games, 3-4 tournaments (9-12 games). That's about 30 games. Since there is no official limit to the # of games PW & Bant. can play, schedule non district games against the top teams--Edina, Wayzata, EP, Blaine, Elk River, Duluth East and on & on. They could easily have 20 non-district games. This would surely challenge RR and give them the competition they are looking for, while keeping them in the District they are assigned. RR could work on team skills during the so-called inferior district teams, and then use those skills against the the so-called talented teams in non district games, all the while, setting the RR up for the regions & State tournament that they are pretty sure they will qualify for. Then there would be no big controversy.

That's exactly the answer for most districts, if not all other than D9. Rochester Red justifiably did not want to play a third of its season against teams that are B1 teams in the cities. Anyone who says that Rochester should have done this or should have done that is speculating. All ass'n's take care of their own first, as it should be. MN hockey's responsibility is to create a rule system that the associations play within. WHAT RULE HAS BEEN BROKEN? Thank god MN hockey has enough people who understand development to allow this type of thing to occur when a district approves it.

What people are inescapably and unexplainably failing to acknowledge is that the rules ALLOW for this! Why is Rochester Red being bashed, when D9's Mankato residing District Director approved it!

Kudos to Rochester (all of the ass'n) and D9 for creating a system that allowed for teams to play at their most appropriate level of play!