STA

[HawkeyPower]

AA or a seperate league would be fine with me for private schools. I would be a little more sympathetic to the Hermantown opinions on this post if their whole system was not peppered with "open enrollment" players. Including some of the top players.

A player can be open enrolled and still have been in the Youth Hockey Association for years. There is no one on the High School team who hasn't worked their way up through the Hockey Association.

[HShockeywatcher]

Apparently 2good4u picked up a dictionary and stopped posting aimlessly

As for ROTC in High school, I get it. In public schools, the students attending ROTC are interested in the Military. Parents sending their kids to STA are looking for a disciplined school structure and the military structure attempts to provide that. As far as cirriculum is concerned, There are no real advantages to either types of school. Study habits start in the home and any kid who is brought up to value education, will do good in any environment. Saying that kids saying they want to play hockey for STA because of the way they play just fuels the fire for others to say that the kids are only there for the hockey. I don't really care if they choose STA for the hockey, but if the number of kids playing hockey there are from great AA feeder programs, it only makes sence to step up to the AA format. It is just my opinion, but I won't watch them until they do.

Agreed, but it can really depend on where you live in the city. I grew up in MPLS, love the city, but plan to live there when I move back to MN and at the current state would never send my kids to the public schools. The real answer is to fix that issue.

Should they opt up? In my opinion yes! I would love to see them come into the AA tourney unranked and upsetting the likes of Edina or Eden Prairie. But this will never happen untill they Man Up.

I'd like to see them up too. With as good as the program is doing, in as short of a time as they've been good, and in Class A, imagine how much better they'd be in Class AA.

You think they'd be unranked? Assuming they made state this year and were in 3AA, they would've probably been the #4 seed. Possibly better, in that case they'd take Marshall, Lourdes, Breck and Totino off their schedule, so we'd see more competition.

(anyone who knows; would they? those are all private schools? Or would they try to schedule BSM and AHA instead?)

[defense]

Breck, Marshall, Lourdes, Totino all seem like pretty good competition.

[HShockeywatcher]

Breck, Marshall, Lourdes, Totino all seem like pretty good competition.

No denying that at all. But so are Wayzata, Edina, Eagan, Cretin (for two sell out games in a season), Holy Angels, BSM, LS, LN, Jefferson, etc, etc, and all are AA.

I read earlier that Hermantown's leading scorer actually lives in the Proctor School District. Now I couldn't care less where he lives. Just be careful when you insist that not a single player has had to fill out an open enrollment form.

He is, but from the sounds of it, he grew up in Hermantown and moved out. From what I've heard (I don't know specifics but...) I think if you are close and want to move to where you live now you have to open enroll there.

Kinda confusing, so I don't know exactly how that works; he should be legal at Hermantown but would may be illegal at Proctor.

[HawkeyPower]

AA or a seperate league would be fine with me for private schools. I would be a little more sympathetic to the Hermantown opinions on this post if their whole system was not peppered with "open enrollment" players. Including some of the top players.

What a shotgun statement with nothing to back it up. Every kid on this years Varsity has been with Hermantown from Squirts and up. Some families move and some have left the mess what is the Duluth Schools. That is not our fault. The school district has even closed open enrollment for certain grade levels. Its people like you that come on forums and talk out of your @#$ and make blanket statements. Jealousy I am assuming.

I read earlier that Hermantown's leading scorer actually lives in the Proctor School District. Now I couldn't care less where he lives. Just be careful when you insist that not a single player has had to fill out an open enrollment form.

Didnt say he wasn't open enrolled. He has played youth hockey IN Hermantown since he was a Squirt. Some players are Open enrollees, but they have played in the system for years. I beleive I said that there are open enrollments. But to say they are peppered throughout the Association is what I had the issue with.

[phil mccracken]

I think the local association where these kids were mites, squirts, and peewees had very little to do with their development. I'm just sayin.

ummm ya.... your wrong, the fundamentals of hockey start at mites and squirts, peewees players learn to check, granted a lot is learned in bantams but i highly doubt you can say high school is where all the development is at,

Honestly I am referring to the fact that these players developed more playing outside their association: elite teams, advanced 15's, 3 on 3 leagues, and yes; AAA hockey then they did in the four months a year of association hockey. And I envy a good association team. STA has some elite players, and these players became this way practicing with kids of their level frequently. Most associations do not have that luxury.

[2good4u]

I think the local association where these kids were mites, squirts, and peewees had very little to do with their development. I'm just sayin.

ummm ya.... your wrong, the fundamentals of hockey start at mites and squirts, peewees players learn to check, granted a lot is learned in bantams but i highly doubt you can say high school is where all the development is at,

Honestly I am referring to the fact that these players developed more playing outside their association: elite teams, advanced 15's, 3 on 3 leagues, and yes; AAA hockey then they did in the four months a year of association hockey. And I envy a good association team. STA has some elite players, and these players became this way practicing with kids of their level frequently. Most associations do not have that luxury.

elite teams=money and *** kissing, i know because i played that
advanced 15s=you got talent and your parents have money and kiss ***
3-3 leagues=honestly almost no player really cares, i played that too
AAA hockey=once had meaning now is just a place for everyone to play with the few exceptions of good teams, i know i was part of it when i was younger too, oh yeah forgot to mention a lot of *** kissing goes on here too along with a lot of money

week long summer hockey camps help keep the kids interested, and help dryland conditioning for the fall, its here where a lot of talent can be picked up but with the watered down "everyone gets to play" AAA hockey now is whats ruining hockey

[2good4u]

eastside,
I agree with what you say, JROTC at STA is designed to teach leadership skills, but did you just compare it to Hitler's youth? And by the way, you're missing some good hockey when you ignore their games, but that's your prerogative.

But this will never happen untill they Man Up.

speaking of what never will happen until someone mans up is that EAST WILL NEVER PLAY HERMANTOWN UNTIL THEY MAN UP!!!! don't call single A hockey JV hockey until YOU ACCEPT THE CHALLENGE OF PLAYING HERMANTOWN!

[keepyourheadup]

The fact that most kids spend time developing outside their associations is common to almost all top end kids now days. STA hardly has the market cornered in that respect. We've spent years on this forum speculating as to the reasons some kids end up at privates and some don't. In the end I believe its an individual choice for each family involved and as much as some of us would prefer they stay, its simply not our decision or our business.

[stpaul]

The fact that most kids spend time developing outside their associations is common to almost all top end kids now days. STA hardly has the market cornered in that respect. We've spent years on this forum speculating as to the reasons some kids end up at privates and some don't. In the end I believe its an individual choice for each family involved and as much as some of us would prefer they stay, its simply not our decision or our business.

I couldn't agree with you more. It's not our business how or why kids attend the high school - public or private - that they do. Families are free to seek out the best for their kids. High school hockey is played by students who attend a high school together. Schools, the MSHSL, coaches and ADs understand this.

The problem is all the private school bashers that come on here and argue that public and private playing together is so unfair. They cite the purity of public schools being represented by only those kids all from one town and developed by one youth association. It's pretty clear that purity doesn't exist and hasn't for a very long time.

[stpaul]

elite teams=money and *** kissing, i know because i played that
advanced 15s=you got talent and your parents have money and kiss ***
3-3 leagues=honestly almost no player really cares, i played that too
AAA hockey=once had meaning now is just a place for everyone to play with the few exceptions of good teams, i know i was part of it when i was younger too, oh yeah forgot to mention a lot of *** kissing goes on here too along with a lot of money

week long summer hockey camps help keep the kids interested, and help dryland conditioning for the fall, its here where a lot of talent can be picked up but with the watered down "everyone gets to play" AAA hockey now is whats ruining hockey

Not too bitter.

[WB6162]

The fact that most kids spend time developing outside their associations is common to almost all top end kids now days. STA hardly has the market cornered in that respect. We've spent years on this forum speculating as to the reasons some kids end up at privates and some don't. In the end I believe its an individual choice for each family involved and as much as some of us would prefer they stay, its simply not our decision or our business.

I couldn't agree with you more. It's not our business how or why kids attend the high school - public or private - that they do. Families are free to seek out the best for their kids. High school hockey is played by students who attend a high school together. Schools, the MSHSL, coaches and ADs understand this.

The problem is all the private school bashers that come on here and argue that public and private playing together is so unfair. They cite the purity of public schools being represented by only those kids all from one town and developed by one youth association. It's pretty clear that purity doesn't exist and hasn't for a very long time.

I don't know who I am more tired of. The Private School bashers or the know it all's who run to their defense at every single perceived attack on them.

Give it a rest.

[MNmade]

Arguments such as this will never go away. Issues over A/AA/private schools/public schools/metro/outer-state be will never be perfectly solved. The current circumstances are NOT perfect, but they DO work (this year brought a remarkable tourney in both classes; I enjoyed every second of it). I am not convinced there is a need for change. Decisions to change things in the tourney and the classes, as they have been argued about in this thread, are not easily made because of possible negative outcomes. And, there are probably some good reasons for why some changes haven't been made by those who actually can make such decisions. So keep that in mind when speculating about what could or should be, and before lambasting the teams and the schools.
As an alumnus of STA, I would very much like to see the school opt up to AA. Someone commented earlier that there was an in-house effort to do this, but it was shot down by the administration. If the school's directors feel that it is in the best interest of the school and the student body (remember that of the 500+ kids who attend STA, only a fraction play in the hockey program) to stay in A, then I support them, and it is a decision to be respected and one that is not made out of a lack of concern for other schools. I'm sure there is and has been plenty of similar discussion at schools like Breck, Blake, etc. While there are obvious reasons why these schools should move up, and plenty of MN hockey fans advocating this, as well as a change in the tourney format, consider what could be some ramifications (+/-):
-Currently strong A programs opt up to AA and bite the dust (unlikely, but it would be unfortunate to see thriving hockey programs that encourage state-wide passion for the game fizzle out, leaving potential skaters to choose *gasp* basketball) --possibly resulting in less attention for MN hockey in general from D-I and scouts. I'm not advocating the protection of Private School X's monopoly on tourney bids for the health of the sport. It is more fun when there is a consistent cycle of good teams from all over the state playing at the "X", and when schools overcome struggling years to then gain greatness (mmm, STA hockey 1885-2003?).
-If every twin cities private school joins most of the area's public schools in AA (include out-states' Lourdes, Marshall, etc. - consistently strong teams, albeit the pool of players to draw from is smaller than a Breck), then by default the A tourney is all outer-state teams. The "State Tournament" becomes two "regional" tourneys, the classic twin cities - iron range rivalry dies, the A tourney is held at the DECC, the town of Warroad doesn't get to shut down, pack up, and head to St. Paul for a weekend, and International Falls is annexed by Canada...or have they been already?
-The seriousness of recruiting becomes SERIOUS. It was stated in a previous post that STA may have not opted up to AA because the administration did not want the reputation as just "a hockey school" (it might be too late). If the STAs and Brecks become AA contenders, Johnny Cakeater from Edina and a few of his MN Blades teammates from Eden Prairie decide they can all play together and win the "more prestigious, non-JV" AA title if they go to Blake. STA, having moved up to AA for being "too good" for 4 seasons in A, now has to ensure that its hockey program stays competitive, so the coaches recruit the more of the blossoming Lakeville feeder program. The metro's population density can ensure that cities like Lakeville will still fill a roster, but it won't be fun for the program's boosters, coaches, and Lakeville students to turn on channel 45 and watch their "cream of the crop" earn another championship banner for STA's ice arena. This might seem dramatic - cities like White Bear Lake and Wayzata have sent teams to the tourney recently, despite the school/hockey team choices of Hill-Murray and Benilde located just a carpool lane away. But also look at some quality hockey cities that were quiet for some time due to the availability of AA private school choices. Holy Angels has thrived off of Jefferson-based talent for years. Many St. Paul-area players have enrolled at Cretin and Hill hoping for the chance at a state championship. Yes, a lot of players who grow up in their city's public school systems and youth hockey programs pledge their allegiance to the public high school, the coaches, their classmates, and friends. Many of the talented players of Breck, Blake, STA, Benilde, etc. grew up fully aware that they would be attending a private high school; religion, family tradition, academic rigor, etc. always will tie some players to a school, regardless of the level of talent on the hockey team. However, the complaints of recruiting done by private school coaches that have filled this forum will only grow should more private schools begin to promote themselves as AA contenders.
-The notion of the A tournament as "JV" competition is unfair. I stated before that I think STA should opt up to AA, but that is not to disgrace the honor of a class A championship. Some posts stated that the STA championship trophy is "fake" or "plastic". Tell that to the kids who worked their tails off through overtime to win it. Tell the guys from Hermantown that it's o.k. they played their hearts out and came so close to living a dream that every kid in the state shares when they lace up their skates, because what they lost is just a "JV" trophy. I bet T.J. Oshie is pretty bummed that he and his team won the "less-significant title".
Those who think the successful private schools MUST opt up to AA need to understand the choices and decisions that are made by players, coaches, and the schools when they are forced with such a decision. I firmly believe that while there is a TREMENDOUS amount of pride in winning the class A title (and doing so multiple times), a school, such as STA, is not determined to exploit resources such as an on-campus ice facility and metro-wide enrollment potential to give the school what recently seems to some spectators as an annual opportunity to easily skate over hard-playing small town teams into "just another JV state championship".
Also, keep in mind that in the past when there was only one state champion come mid-march, the demographics of Minnesota were very different - more people lived on the range and many of the twin cities suburbs that have recently garnered tourney success were just starting to sprout hockey programs. In order for us all as hockey fans to appreciate the finer aspects of our state's favorite pastime, the notion that the tournament should be one single class should be disregarded. Unless the hockey audience is fine with seeing only 7 great games instead of 14, and fans won't mind that the only teams to travel past the center of the state could consistently be Moorhead and Duluth East - who would most likely be playing a heavy dosage of the same Edina, Eden Prairie, and Hill-Murray teams (generalized, but assessed on youth program size and previous success). Unless Breck and STA opted up and managed to territorially divide the top talent of the entire twin cities in two.
Everyone wants to see great games, but we all hope that it is our own team that is in those games. This year's tourney was a treat in both classes, and I think the tournament will continue to impress, as it has in the past, for many years to come. If it is necessary for some teams to move up, so be it, but (easy for me to say since the team I was cheering for made it) the competition needs to be stiff across the brackets to ensure that the talented and hardworking players are challenged to play at the top of their game, regardless of the class, size of school, nature of the school, or the location of the school.
To quickly dispel any finger pointing at STA - the school is nearly 130 years old, and the U.S. military-based JROTC program has been enforced for almost as long. It may seem silly, or almost offensive to some that the uniform and actions (saluting the flag, etc.) demonstrated by the cadets are traditions upheld by our great armed forces. While only a handful of kids in each class go on to serving in the U.S. military, the curriculum of the school strictly enforces a responsible code that in-part adheres to curriculum set by the U.S. Army. Many of the teachers at the school are retired vets who preach the leadership standards they demonstrated in their time of service. There are always some students that are less-serious about such rigor. But the uniform, and the tradition that comes with it, is worn with an understanding of pride - just like any other student at the "X" donning their school colors. It may seem ridiculous for a bunch of pimple-faced, hormone-driven guys to be jumping around and cheering (sometimes inappropriate things, I'm sure) in a military designated uniform, but it is not out of disrespect. We were/are all fans there to support the team, just like everyone else, but we do have to wear the uniform and try at best to uphold the traditions and values that come with it.

[PuckU126]

^^Longest first post ever.

Welcome.

[TheClipper]

Let me see if I have this right:

The Hermantown Hawks--a team composed entirely of loyal, true blue, lion-hearted, valiant young men all of whom are products of Hermantown's fabulous, talented youth system--blew a 3-0 lead and lost to Saint Thomas Academy. This happened because Saint Thomas is a private school.

Ya lost me.

[muckandgrind]

Move up!

1000 male students at school. Any other school would have 2000 students with the other half being girls... I know, I know no girls at St Thomas...

Recruiting south Metro...
1000 male students to form a hockey team...
Successful track record in Class A, sometimes dominate in years...

Move up

How many time are people going to screw this up? They have ~550 boys in the upper school and MSHSL doubles it to get it around ~1,000, which still puts them in class A. Do yourself a favor and do some research before you post so you stop making yourself look so ignorant.

I did graduate from St. Thomas and I would like to see them move up, but if the board of directors don't think it benefits the school in any way, they won't do it. Another thing I really don't understand is why people think the kids that go to STA, Breck and the like owe something to their association and should stay there. This doesn't make any sense to me, they owe them nothing.

Actually, he has a point. In 2008, their enrollment was 695. Multiple that by two, and it get's them well over 1300 and enough to be past the 1275 enrollment threshold.

[eastsideguy]

Move up!

1000 male students at school. Any other school would have 2000 students with the other half being girls... I know, I know no girls at St Thomas...

Recruiting south Metro...
1000 male students to form a hockey team...
Successful track record in Class A, sometimes dominate in years...

Move up

How many time are people going to screw this up? They have ~550 boys in the upper school and MSHSL doubles it to get it around ~1,000, which still puts them in class A. Do yourself a favor and do some research before you post so you stop making yourself look so ignorant.

I did graduate from St. Thomas and I would like to see them move up, but if the board of directors don't think it benefits the school in any way, they won't do it. Another thing I really don't understand is why people think the kids that go to STA, Breck and the like owe something to their association and should stay there. This doesn't make any sense to me, they owe them nothing.

Actually, he has a point. In 2008, their enrollment was 695. Multiple that by two, and it get's them well over 1300 and enough to be past the 1275 enrollment threshold.

Muck actually your wrong, the 695 would have included the 7-8 grade which has approximately 125-140 students. 9-12 has always been capped at around 550

[HawkeyPower]

Let me see if I have this right:

The Hermantown Hawks--a team composed entirely of loyal, true blue, lion-hearted, valiant young men all of whom are products of Hermantown's fabulous, talented youth system--blew a 3-0 lead and lost to Saint Thomas Academy. This happened because Saint Thomas is a private school.

Ya lost me.

No it happened because St. Thomas Academy was better on that day, had a deeper team and made the plays they needed to to win the game.

[DKS1962]

I spoke with a young Cadet at the tourney. He said STA had 90 skaters( I did not verify this ) try out for their high school team. If true, I can't think of a single A team that has that many skaters try out for their HS team.
Hockey is a numbers game.If a team has 90 kids from all over the metro trying out you should have a damn good hockey team.

[eastsideguy]

I spoke with a young Cadet at the tourney. He said STA had 90 skaters( I did not verify this ) try out for their high school team. If true, I can't think of a single A team that has that many skaters try out for their HS team.
Hockey is a numbers game.If a team has 90 kids from all over the metro trying out you should have a damn good hockey team.

They do

[MNmade]

^^Longest first post ever.

Welcome.

Longest second post ever? I was trying to bring up some points though as to why not every private school should be "forced" into AA, and if they are, what could happen - recruit, recruit, recruit, for hockey, hockey, hockey. ----->For those who are so harshly criticizing STA - it is a private school, "an academic business". No students=No STA. Essentially every one of ~540 boys who enrolls is "RECRUITED". ONLY A FEW YEARS AGO, the hockey team had a stroke of luck - there was a crop of good pucksters at STA, especially freshman. ~50 kids (~1/10th of students) showed up for tryouts to get some ice time. The majority of these prospects (NOT at STA FOR HOCKEY, since STA puck was ~2-18 year prior) elected to play for their city squads: Lakeville, W. St. Paul, Woodbury, Edina, etc. Lots of Bantam A/B players. Along with contributions from University of St. Thomas who shares the ice, an STA alum drops heavy $ - ice arena is built, new coaches come, new season, new life. Talented Bantams now in line for most of varsity and JV spots. Team gets better, success ensues. Word is passed around private (some public, too) grade school pucksters that STA isn't a dead-end for hockey anymore. More players enroll. A few are *more than likely* recruited for hockey. Tisk, tisk, right? (AHA had already blown the lid off this practice anyways) Team gets better, makes STATE! Next year team WINS STATE! Now you have a certified puck program at a school that has been promoting academic excellence, religion, leadership since 1885 (YES, it is a MILITARY school - Originally named St. Thomas Military Acad. JROTC is mandatory for all, even puckheads. The school receives money from the U.S. Army to have/promote this style of education. Students are in no way obligated to military service post grad, but each year several do via appointments to Naval Acad., Air Force, colleges w/ROTC). All Cadets must wear hair short (severely hinders good flow under the bucket) and keep proper uniform. Mothers like this. Mothers talk. They talk about this at Edina, Eagan, etc. Peewee A games. When high school arrives, former Peewee A players enroll at STA because mother wants hair trimmed and strong academics. The boys don't fuss because guess what? STA has hockey trophies now. STA Cadets are going D-1 now. That is how it happened, plain and simple.
STA is not Shattuck, boys do not leave Cali to come play puck. Administration does not want unruly, yet talented puckheads - more Adam Banks, less Fulton Reid. Nor does STA intend to become "just a hockey school". Now STA is very good at hockey, good enough that it is time to play up a class? Many think so. Many know so. BUT WAIT! What happens to STA military prep school's identity if they go to AA? Does it become a pit-stop for puck-playing, trophy-chasing, to-be-juniors-playing, D-1 scholarship-earning boys who leave after 2 years/state championship? Not the reputation the school desires for itself in the 120 something year of existence. Not when STA's endowment allows for financial assistance that pays for nearly half of tuition for Cadets who need it. -------->So there you have it - a private school assigned to class A by MSHSL for hockey years ago all of the sudden has a program succeeding so quickly, they didn't know what to expect - Stay A? Go AA? Can STA keep up in AA? Is it just a few seasons of great talent and wins, and then AA is too much to handle? Is it unfair that STA wins a lot in A? Sure there's recruiting, but it is a private school - STA must convince parents/sons why they should spend $$$ to go to STA, not Benilde or Hill, or stay home and play with the Bantam crew. To many outsiders it may seem like bullying and trophy chasing, but to the STA community it has been nice to win championships/gain attention for the school after 100 years of hockey nothingness. There is no "feeder" program for us - not for football, or soccer, not for hockey. Every student-athlete is essentially recruited. It's an academic business. Right now "business" is going well and many talented pucksters want in. But unlike Eden Prairie or Edina, Hermantown or Duluth East, Thief River Falls or New Ulm, if STA does not stay relatively "hot" or possibly flops in AA, the talent pool can evaporate rather quickly, almost as quickly as it started. It's the same for any private school. I'm not searching for pity, and I would like to see the Cadets (and other strong A programs) compete AA, but I figured this could give some explanation to those who see STA as bullish program. We have 3 A titles since 2006, so don't shed any tears for us, but if a miscalculated decision is made that threatens the institution's success and reputation, it may be another 100 years until the next state title.

[West Hockey]

Whether STA moves to AA or stays in A is, in my opinion, irrelevant. I don't like to see so many private schools dominate the state tournaments. The great thing about the tournament is that communities are represented. It's the culmination of years of association work--hours and hours of volunteer time, car pooling, tournaments, etc. I hate Edina just as much as anyone, but I certainly respect their association and their teams. When Edina or EP or Tonka are at the state tournament, entire communities (and associations) are represented--not a select group of parachioal kids. It's even more pronounced in small outstate schools. Towns shut down. Offices close. Then they come to St. Paul and they get to play a bunch of rich kids from some private school representing no association and no community. I rather have them come to the cities and just play some regular ol' rich kids. It's not about just STA--it's all of them.

When an association loses a player to a private school, the entire community loses. So, let the privates have their own tournament, or even their own section at each class. Let them have their own conference. They have chosen to remove themselves from their community's school (which is completely their own choice), why should they get to play in that community's athletic conference or tournament?

I am not bashing private schools or private education or people who choose to go that route. But if you choose to leave your town's school, then leave. Go do your own thing. But I don't think you can or should have your cake and eat it too.

[PuckU126]

Longest second post ever?

[iseepalms]

Just a thought, Teams that choose to play class "A" can only play class"A" teams not "AA". Do you think private schools would just stay in "A" and beat everyone up forever, I don't think so their ego's will not them especially with the cost of private schools.
Other than that they could also turn it into the basketball format and everyone has a chance (AAAA-AAA-AA-A)

[hockeywild7]

Although I would like to see private schools like STA move up to AA what I would really like to see is for them to have their own section in each A and AA. Put them all in the same section and let them battle it out. I think it would change everyones views on transferring schools for hockey purposes only.