Peewee Tournaments

[SuperStar]

"That is more likely to occur at the Edina tourney because their ablility of the organizers to guarantee quality teams is seriously been hampered"

Seriosly hampered? I can't believe someone with your hockey knowledge would even make that comment - It was pointed out to you the the TOP 6 teams in the State were at the Edina tourney.

I just can not continue this conversation - And I am not even from Edina!

[frederick61]

F61,
1. More games doesn't mean the tournament is stonger when far too many of those games are a blow (case in point: Chaska; their pool was pretty intense huh!??). The final 4 teams at Edina played 5 quality games, and as Edina did a decent job at balancing the brackets. Most would agree that they really were the four best teams at the tournament.

2. No one is questioning the commitment of the Bloomington Association. They put on a fine tournament.

3. A first day loss didn't automatically mean a team is eliminated. Lakeville North lost its first game to CO TBirds, but fought back and played hard the remaing games, including a 5-5 tie with Wayzata in their 3rd game. No, they didn't advance, but they were in the mix. Don't tell me those games didn't still mean something to those kids. I didn't see any teams in that tournament lay down. Besides, there is nothing wrong with a team having to bring its game each time, or else.... it forces teams to prepare and focus everytime on the ice.

4. I love the "more games = more development" argument. Development happens in practice, plain and simple. It comes down to good coaching and teaching. Some programs do a better job at it than others. You can play games until you're blue in the face and not necessarily develop the skills you need to grow as a hockey player.

Crossover, you miss my point. The Edina Tourney points system lumps game points into 2, 1, and 0. So how did Eden Prairie advance over the 95 Fire? They went to the fifth tie breaker, least penalty minutes served. A fine way to judge the strength of two teams. Every period in pool play at Bloomington matters, that is why no team is eliminated until the very end of pool play. Each team has to fight from the first period of the first games to the final period of the last game because they matter. Four of the teams at Edina showed up the on the second day to play for pride at best. Were these weak teams that shouldn't have been in the Edina Tourney?

I was pointing out that Edina was trying to sell something of less value. You said nothing about Bloomington Association commitment.

You are right, a first day loss doesn't mean that a team like Lakeville North was automatically out, but four other teams were. All Lakeville North had to do was to beat Wayzata by 4 goals to remain in the tourney.

I never said more tourney games equals development. I asked you do you agree that peewee players improve over the season, that peewee level play is development?

[DumpandChase1]

61. The Edina tourny field has had the top teams in for at least 5 years, the coaches see to that. I don't think they will have any trouble getting the top teams for next year. The fact is, talking to the organizers, the top teams at Bloomington, ie. Eagan, Coon Rapids, Chaska all wanted into the Edina tourny.

Didn't your Apple Valley team from last year play in the Edina tourny?

[frederick61]

61. The Edina tourny field has had the top teams in for at least 5 years, the coaches see to that. I don't think they will have any trouble getting the top teams for next year. The fact is, talking to the organizers, the top teams at Bloomington, ie. Eagan, Coon Rapids, Chaska all wanted into the Edina tourny.

Didn't your Apple Valley team from last year play in the Edina tourny?

Tell me. Why didn't they take them?

[DumpandChase1]

They were full, or already had too many teams from their district.

[oldtimer64]

They were full, or already had too many teams from their district.

Here is how they pick their teams

teams apply (15 or so) once the window to apply is closed the coaches from each level (pwa jeff johnson) goes through and picks the teams they want to have. problem is they don't let the teams they don't want in know their not in until late Sept or early Oct. Edina will always have Duluth East,White Bear,EP,Centennial,Colorado T-Birds,Wayzata and Rochester in this tourney(pwa) because of the relationships that Jeff Johnson has with these teams so really every year thier are only 4-5 spots open and jeff has to wait to see which teams are any good to invite them. This Tourney does have good teams but from what i have heard is that next years field for bloomington is gonna not take a back seat to edina's (pwa)

[DumpandChase1]

64.

So do you also think that Burnsville is going to get the good teams that go to the EP tourny? I doubt it. The good teams will go to the good tournaments so they can get quality games.

[crossovers8]

F61,
1. More games doesn't mean the tournament is stonger when far too many of those games are a blow (case in point: Chaska; their pool was pretty intense huh!??). The final 4 teams at Edina played 5 quality games, and as Edina did a decent job at balancing the brackets. Most would agree that they really were the four best teams at the tournament.

2. No one is questioning the commitment of the Bloomington Association. They put on a fine tournament.

3. A first day loss didn't automatically mean a team is eliminated. Lakeville North lost its first game to CO TBirds, but fought back and played hard the remaing games, including a 5-5 tie with Wayzata in their 3rd game. No, they didn't advance, but they were in the mix. Don't tell me those games didn't still mean something to those kids. I didn't see any teams in that tournament lay down. Besides, there is nothing wrong with a team having to bring its game each time, or else.... it forces teams to prepare and focus everytime on the ice.

4. I love the "more games = more development" argument. Development happens in practice, plain and simple. It comes down to good coaching and teaching. Some programs do a better job at it than others. You can play games until you're blue in the face and not necessarily develop the skills you need to grow as a hockey player.

Crossover, you miss my point. The Edina Tourney points system lumps game points into 2, 1, and 0. So how did Eden Prairie advance over the 95 Fire? They went to the fifth tie breaker, least penalty minutes served. A fine way to judge the strength of two teams. Every period in pool play at Bloomington matters, that is why no team is eliminated until the very end of pool play. Each team has to fight from the first period of the first games to the final period of the last game because they matter. Four of the teams at Edina showed up the on the second day to play for pride at best. Were these weak teams that shouldn't have been in the Edina Tourney?

I was pointing out that Edina was trying to sell something of less value. You said nothing about Bloomington Association commitment.

You are right, a first day loss doesn't mean that a team like Lakeville North was automatically out, but four other teams were. All Lakeville North had to do was to beat Wayzata by 4 goals to remain in the tourney.

I never said more tourney games equals development. I asked you do you agree that peewee players improve over the season, that peewee level play is development?

61,
And what would the "five" tie breakers be? Your math must be better than mine. Its irrelevent anyway, both EP and Fire advanced.

If you saw LN play Wayzata, that is what makes youth hockey great. A terrific back-and-forth game.

Not sure how you wove development into the discussion of strength of tournaments. I would hope that kids are developing (improving) as the season wears on, but I'm guessing that sadly, some are not. Some coaches have a way of beating kids down over time as they become more and more concerned with W's than development. Again, a holiday tournament doesn't have much bearing on that development in the grand scheme of things.

Like SuperStar, I'm not from Edina either, and my head hurts from this conversation.

Hope you can win your next tournament and spare us from your gloom.

[Nobodyonya]

Oldtimer you are 100% accurate on how Edina chooses the teams to participate in there tourney. I was informed by someone from Edina and they in fact told me they wanted CR in there tourney this year, but they could not give them a firm commitment until all registrants have been received so they can determine who they want. Therefore, CR essentially registered there team in the Bloomington tourney guaranteeing them a spot. Edina, supposedly informed CR they indeed were granted a entry in the Edina tourney, but Edina's pledge was to late. If Edina would have given them there blessing earlier on they would have participated. The big tournaments fill up faster than previous years and I don't blame CR for moving forward and locking into another tourney to guarantee them a spot rather than waiting for a "denial" or "approval". I suspect this happens all the time.

[O-townClown]

Three pools of 4 teams.

Winner of each plus one wildcard advance.

I'm sure you can run all kinds of scenarios where all four teams finish 1-1-1, three are at 2-1, or two are 2-0-1 and it will come down to a tiebreaker. Bottom line - win all three and your team will make the semis. Don't and you are in need of a break. Seems fair to me.

The Edina Holiday tournament used to be 16 teams playing elimation so the winner was 4-0. That format is fine too, but by going to 12 they have an easier time ensuring top-tier competition.

The team from Colorado played 9 games in Minnesota during their week. Sure they caught a bad break when they lost a pool game, but you are really stretching to say that the format isn't fair or that the field isn't tough.

Edina's tournament seems fine.

[frederick61]

Three pools of 4 teams.

Winner of each plus one wildcard advance.

I'm sure you can run all kinds of scenarios where all four teams finish 1-1-1, three are at 2-1, or two are 2-0-1 and it will come down to a tiebreaker. Bottom line - win all three and your team will make the semis. Don't and you are in need of a break. Seems fair to me.

The Edina Holiday tournament used to be 16 teams playing elimation so the winner was 4-0. That format is fine too, but by going to 12 they have an easier time ensuring top-tier competition.

The team from Colorado played 9 games in Minnesota during their week. Sure they caught a bad break when they lost a pool game, but you are really stretching to say that the format isn't fair or that the field isn't tough.

Edina's tournament seems fine.

The statement I made was that the Bloomington Tourney was tougher then the Edina Tourney. It does not mean the Edina Tourney isn't tough.
The pool play set up in these 3 pool tourneys isn't fair, often the home town sets the pool so they can advance. Edina has a fine team this year, but they still seeded themselves with two teams they had beat previously.

If they want tough, it starts with them. Switch Lakeville South and Edina in the pools, and Edina could have been bounced the first day. Lakeville South would have played in the semis. The Bloomington Associations do less of that simply because the format is designed to be fair.

[DumpandChase1]

Fred61. Let me try to understand your logic on tougher tounaments.

Lets take the Bloomington tourny winner, Chaska. They played 6 games in 6 days, their first three in pool play against unranked teams. In their 3 playoff games, they played 1 ranked team. They also had to play 3 teams from their own district. Teams usually play in tounaments to get away from their district.
So Chaska played 6 games with only 1 against a ranked team.

Lets take the Edina tourny winner, 95 Fire. They played 5 games in 4 days, 2 of their first three in pool play were against top 10 teams. Their 2 playoff games were against top 3 teams. So the Fire played 5 games, 4 of them comming against top 10 teams.

You tell me which is a tougher tournament.

[oldtimer64]

Oldtimer you are 100% accurate on how Edina chooses the teams to participate in there tourney. I was informed by someone from Edina and they in fact told me they wanted CR in there tourney this year, but they could not give them a firm commitment until all registrants have been received so they can determine who they want. Therefore, CR essentially registered there team in the Bloomington tourney guaranteeing them a spot. Edina, supposedly informed CR they indeed were granted a entry in the Edina tourney, but Edina's pledge was to late. If Edina would have given them there blessing earlier on they would have participated. The big tournaments fill up faster than previous years and I don't blame CR for moving forward and locking into another tourney to guarantee them a spot rather than waiting for a "denial" or "approval". I suspect this happens all the time.

You are right that Coon Rapids and Apple Valley passed on this tourney this year because of past uncertain of are in or not. Not sure AV will ever be asked back to edina because the next couple of years look down for AV.

[frederick61]

Fred61. Let me try to understand your logic on tougher tounaments.

Lets take the Bloomington tourny winner, Chaska. They played 6 games in 6 days, their first three in pool play against unranked teams. In their 3 playoff games, they played 1 ranked team. They also had to play 3 teams from their own district. Teams usually play in tounaments to get away from their district.
So Chaska played 6 games with only 1 against a ranked team.

Lets take the Edina tourny winner, 95 Fire. They played 5 games in 4 days, 2 of their first three in pool play were against top 10 teams. Their 2 playoff games were against top 3 teams. So the Fire played 5 games, 4 of them comming against top 10 teams.

You tell me which is a tougher tournament.

Let’s compare the tourneys of the two teams. What actually went on on the ice. In pool play, the Fire drew Lakeville South (where’s Edina), Centennial, and Eden Prairie. This selected, organizational tier I AAA team beat Lakeville South 5-2, Centennial 12-1 and tied Eden Prairie 2-2 losing the #1 seed to Eden Prairie and gaining the semi’s via wild card. They then beat Edina 8-5 and Wayzata 4-2. In theory, they should have played a total of 225 minutes of tough hockey against top competition. Did they? I think not. I know they cruised against Centennial. Eden Prairie game I saw and the Eagles outfoxed the Fire. They were confused by the Eagle defense. I didn’t see the other games, so I won’t comment. I will just say they played maybe a 180 tough minutes over 4 days.

Chaska beat Eastview 3-0, Rogers 4-1 and Rosemount 7-2. They screwed up against Rogers and got only 9 points for the game. That left them short and they needed every point against Rosemount and came up short and got the #2 seed.

This gave them a days rest. What one overlooks is that a team can be up 4 goals at the end of the second period and they need to go out and win that third period or they lose points. This forces the team to go all out for all three periods. You can’t cruise through any game.

Chaska then beat Tonka 2-1, 96 Fire 2-1 and Apple Valley 6-4. Just by looking at the scores, you can see that these games pushed the teams to their limits. There was no let up. Chaska to win the title had to skate all out for 6 days and 216 minutes. Oh and just to make things tougher, Chaska never got to sit while the ice was cleaned between periods.

Now you want to hold up a piece of paper that says this team is ranked and is better. That’s subjective. Do it on the ice. Rosemount has beaten Hermantown among others. Does that make them equal to Duluth East who beat Hermantown by same number of goals. On paper it does. If you go by rep, Duluth East gets the Edina Tourney every time, because they are tough.

Eagan, Chaska, Woodbury and of course Jefferson have always played in the Bloomington Tourney. Woodbury didn’t this year. Go to the site and you can look up the past tourney records. By the way, you will also find this year’s tourney results there.

I am glad to hear that the Bloomington Tourney is looking even stronger next year, but to me it has always been tough. I am looking forward to that tourney already. Who knows, I might get over to the Edina Tourney again.

[crossovers8]

Eastview (ranked #46), Rogers (#76), and Rosemount (#39) ??? The more you say 61, the more embarrassing it becomes.

Sad that your argument requires creating a supposed "advantage" from a resurfacing break. If anything it is disruptive to the better teams and is probably a disadvantage to the Fire, as it gives its opponent a chance to catch their breath. I haven't seen too many teams that show the conditioning and strength of the Fire late in the game.

It may help you to at least familiarize yourself with the methodology used in MNHockeyRankings.com. While the formula may not be perfect (none are), it at least has a solid, consistent mathematical basis, taking into account goal differentials for each game and relative strength of opponents. It does not include opinions of journalist, coaches, etc., and is based solely on what has happened on the ice. So, your 1-0 squeaker over the #46 ranked Eastview team hurt your overall ranking, as it should.

The way you are tooting Rosemount's horn, I would almost think that you have resorted to an alliance with StatsMan101.... LOL

[frederick61]

Eastview (ranked #46), Rogers (#76), and Rosemount (#39) ??? The more you say 61, the more embarrassing it becomes.

Sad that your argument requires creating a supposed "advantage" from a resurfacing break. If anything it is disruptive to the better teams and is probably a disadvantage to the Fire, as it gives its opponent a chance to catch their breath. I haven't seen too many teams that show the conditioning and strength of the Fire late in the game.

It may help you to at least familiarize yourself with the methodology used in MNHockeyRankings.com. While the formula may not be perfect (none are), it at least has a solid, consistent mathematical basis, taking into account goal differentials for each game and relative strength of opponents. It does not include opinions of journalist, coaches, etc., and is based solely on what has happened on the ice. So, your 1-0 squeaker over the #46 ranked Eastview team hurt your overall ranking, as it should.

The way you are tooting Rosemount's horn, I would almost think that you have resorted to an alliance with StatsMan101.... LOL

It is still a subjective piece of paper you are holding onto. Tell me, what in the formula accounts for four kids getting the flu or three kids being on Christmas vacation.

[O-townClown]

Sorry, not buying your argument.

The Fire hammered Centennial, but you termed it an easy game. Only because the Fire are so good.

The only part that I'll agree with is that Edina's pool wasn't as hard as the rest. By design? Maybe.

[frederick61]

Sorry, not buying your argument.

The Fire hammered Centennial, but you termed it an easy game. Only because the Fire are so good.

The only part that I'll agree with is that Edina's pool wasn't as hard as the rest. By design? Maybe.

Who is selling? You can wave that paper ranking all you want, but look closely at the scores they are using for their statistical analysis. A number of teams don't report their scores leaving holes in the formula. All I can say is that I have seen every ranked team except one Roseau in the LPH top twenty.

Most I have seen more then once. I have seen how they have developed as a team or not. If you are really serious go watch a few games such as Woodbury and Eagan tomorrow. It will be interesting to see Woodbury's #1 line can come to life against Eagan. Or how about a true rivalry when the two Lakevilles clash at Hasse on the 4th.

Did you Grand Rapids is in town Jan 12/13, three games scheduled that I know of, Jefferson, Wayzata and Coon Rapids. Or if you are over near Hastings on the 12th, you drop in at their tourney and catch the Fire playing Maple Grove. Great games. You can actually see these teams play hockey or you can stay home and read somebody interperting their scores in your paper.

[O-townClown]

Forget paper rankings and let's just go by who does well in post-season play. I'll take Edina, Eden Prairie, and Wayzata and you can have Eagan, Woodbury, and whoever else you want.

[SuperStar]

I agree with Crossovers and dumpandchase.

Lets do this - How about someone get a POLL started on this subject.

Which tourney is better/tougher: Edina or Bloomington - I would but I don't know how to do that on here...

[frederick61]

Forget paper rankings and let's just go by who does well in post-season play. I'll take Edina, Eden Prairie, and Wayzata and you can have Eagan, Woodbury, and whoever else you want.

Its fine with me. You can pick any of three teams in the Edina Tourney and I will pick any of three teams from the Bloomington Tourney. I suggest we wait until Feb 8 to make them final (just before D6 playoffs start). But remember, it is not the toughest team that wins, but the toughest group of teams.

[SuperStar]

"Toughest group of teams"..? That was what our whole conversation about the 2 tourneys was about...Edian had 6 top ranked teams.

Anyways - Lets get a POLL going for this last tourney - See what people think and lets do another one for who will be in the State tourney...

[O-townClown]

Forget paper rankings and let's just go by who does well in post-season play. I'll take Edina, Eden Prairie, and Wayzata and you can have Eagan, Woodbury, and whoever else you want.

Its fine with me. You can pick any of three teams in the Edina Tourney and I will pick any of three teams from the Bloomington Tourney. I suggest we wait until Feb 8 to make them final (just before D6 playoffs start). But remember, it is not the toughest team that wins, but the toughest group of teams.

I'll take those three and you take whoever you want. At the youth level the programs in Edina, Eden Prairie, and Wayzata are strong.

[frederick61]

Two teams at a crossroads: Eagan @ Woodbury tonight.

The first few weeks after the holidays, a number of peewee teams hit a crossroads. The team can either drift the rest of the season as the players look forward to baseball or summer hockey; or they can gain their stride and come together as a team. For the metro teams, this phenomenon I attribute to summer hockey.

Players that skate summer hockey enjoy an edge the first month to six weeks over the opposition and teammates who didn’t skate summer. But when the edge evaporates because their teammates and opposition catch up, they become frustrated and the result frustrates the team and coach.

Woodbury and Eagan are two teams that, to me, are at that crossroads. I saw Eagan play against Jefferson in the Bloomington Tourney last week and they were not the team I saw earlier. The players who were easily spotted as outstanding players were not so easily spotted.

Nor was Woodbury the team I watched early in the season. I saw Woodbury play just before Christmas and they looked out of sync-the only excuse I would give them is that in the game I saw they were short players.

Eagan played tonight at Woodbury. The game was a good one. The action fast paced and the skill levels high. Woodbury won 5-2. They jumped out to a 3 goal lead in the first period with their number one line scoring all their goals. Eagan came back to score late in the period on a crazy bounce of the puck and the period ended 3-1. Most of the second period was evenly skated, until a long pass set up a Woodbury forward on a breakaway. He top shelved the goalie to make the score 4-1. In the third period, each team added a goal.

Both teams had been prepared by their coaches for this game. The difference was the Woodbury team executed their game strategy as a team. Their top line may have gotten the goals, but it was because the other lines set them up with opportunities to score. They executed their role very well. Most coaches feel lucky if they can get all three lines each playing well among themselves. This team played all their lines well among all three lines in the context of the game. They keyed their line changes to maximize pressure on the Eagan team.

The Eagan coach knew this and countered by mixing lines and that eventually evened the game out, but he could not get sustain pressure with his key player combination on the ice. This is the frustration factor that I spoke about.

The Eagan key combination has not improved. The top line for Woodbury is still outstanding. Why? They have improved as the rest of the players have improved. They have moved beyond the crossroads and are continuing to improve. Eagan is a fine team, but they remain at the crossroads with less then 6 weeks to go in the season.

[O-townClown]

Forget paper rankings and let's just go by who does well in post-season play. I'll take Edina, Eden Prairie, and Wayzata and you can have Eagan, Woodbury, and whoever else you want.

Its fine with me. You can pick any of three teams in the Edina Tourney and I will pick any of three teams from the Bloomington Tourney. I suggest we wait until Feb 8 to make them final (just before D6 playoffs start). But remember, it is not the toughest team that wins, but the toughest group of teams.

I'll take those three and you take whoever you want. At the youth level the programs in Edina, Eden Prairie, and Wayzata are strong.

Uh oh Frederick!