HighSchoolHockeyForums.com

Who was the last state champion, regardless of class, to win with all homegrown players on their roster? <p></p><i></i>

I do not know. However, I'll start the early betting line on EP winning again next year since there are "more to come" in 2006-07. I cannot name names since we won't know "for sure" until September, but I was saddened tonight. And as the Big Green Whiner, my team will have to get through a possibly even tougher EP next year to reach state.<br><br>I only hope that the EP girls who lose their spots to open enrollees next year will understand. I also fear the youth program for girls in EP will be following in the footsteps of SSP's from recent years. Does the EP youth program ever talk to the high school about this?<br><br>Finally, is this what Rudy Perpich wanted when he started open enrollment? I, for one, think not. <p></p><i></i>

FWIW - I understand the dismay. I have to say though that 10-20 years ago this is the same thoughts that we heard about the private schools. Open enrollment has leveled the playing field I think between publics that can atrract top talent, and privates that can do the same. Unfortunately for the rest of the teams (public and private alike), it's like an arms race that they have little chance of competing in. Hopefully those other teams are Class A teams, else they really have no chance!<br><br>My thoughts on transfering are well documented on this board. I won't say it all again.<br><br>I do have to say that I'm happy for EP & SSP. There are some amazing hockey players on both those teams, and they are great people too. Congrats ladies!!!<br><br>Similarly, CR & Warroad have some wonderful players too, and we saw many great teams & players in the tourney!!! <p></p><i></i>

It's going to happen. Unless MSHSL puts down a rule against it, it's going to happen. <p></p><i></i>

Since that's where this thread was headed...does anyone else find it ironic that Warroad did not get their State Championship with their star transfer? I also found it comical when the tv commentators talked about #6's mom making the 6.5 hour drive to the cities...like they don't know she lives in St. Cloud!<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :lol --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif ALT=":lol"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br>I agree with your past comments on transfers ghshockeyfan...it's frustrating trying to field a competitive team with local talent within your school district and then have to play against others in your section with imported "superstars".<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START >: --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/mad.gif ALT=">:"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br>But, we sure have fun trying!<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START ;) --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br> <p></p><i></i>

My understanding was that some discussion of transfer players was brought up in the TV commentary re: SSP, but that it wasn't discussed about any of the other teams??? From what I can tell, each of the 4 teams in the championship games had transfers on their rosters and all of those teams also saw at least one of those transfers be named to the all-tourney team I believe, so I don't think that this is unusual (transfering).<br><br>It's tough to compete with this with homegrown talent, but I also don't blame players for seeking out what they feel are better academic and athletic opportunities. <p></p><i></i>

Cant help but feel sad, almost ill the way this year ended. We've got ssp, that became the poster team for the biggest issue in the girls game dropping down to 'a' (funny how that happened the year after losing 3-4 stars to graduation)and then winning it due to a no goal. Not much to argue about, the whistle blew, the play was dead. Thats it. Then we have ep, the heir apparent to the poster winning 'aa. This kind of became a loss of innocense year I think. We have to realise if this the way its going to be, this is the way its going to be. So for the stronger programs out there that can "attract" players, you better start "attracting" if you want to be playing for state titles. For the schools that cant attract players, just keep playing for fun and love of it but realise that big prize probably isnt in the stars <p></p><i></i>

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I also found it comical when the tv commentators talked about #6's mom making the 6.5 hour drive to the cities...like they don't know she lives in St. Cloud! <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br><br>I thought that was hilarious. Holly is a good player, she was on some of my teams when I was younger. I thought it was funny how they tried to make it seem like she was Warroad's own and that her brother was one of those guys that played hockey in Warroad. They made no mention that he was a player for St. Cloud Tech. Even the mom avoided questions relating to going to St. Cloud.<br><br>Like, "Why did Holly choose St. Cloud State?"<br><br>Mom, "She wanted to be part of an up-and-coming program."<br><br>Riiiiiight...the St. Cloud times did an article saying she couldn't wait to play in front of the home town crowd.<br><br>Talk about dodging Open-Enrollment questions.<br> <p>"both ties they scored as many goals as the opponent" - ae42</p><i></i>

Tough topic to get around. When I try to figure out a "bottom line" type of opinion, I come up with this:<br><br>If it's allowed by the state, why do we complain? Because unless you're on the winning side, <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>it just doesn't seem right!</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br><br>Case in point, Stoa & Feste tranfer from Kennedy to EP and EP comes back and dusts Kennedy 15-0. I know we've been over this before, but that makes me shake my head. I'm all for a new transfer rule that was mentioned in this forum before; no athletic competition for 1 year after transfering. That would go a long way to discourage AAA type HS teams. And if the real reason is academics, than accept the priority and transfer for academics and put off sports.<br><br>How to deal with private schools then? Easy as Wisconsin. I don't know if they do this anymore, but they used to have seperate state tournaments for public & private schools. I'm sure that privates would feel left out, but here again, what's your priorities? As far as I know, private schools shouldn't be created to be athletic powerhouses. Send your child to a private school because its the best academic choice. If you'd like your child to be on an awesome hockey team, do the AAA thing in the offseason. <br><br>In the mean time, congratulate the champions and be proud of your children for playing the best they can. <p></p><i></i>

SEDad,<br><br>Agree on all counts. <br><br>I would argue and lobby for some kind of "athletic waiting period" for transfers - 1 yr ???. If they claim to be open enrolling for academic reasons, then they certainly won't mind this waiting period. It's just too convenient to cite other reasons for program hopping, like academics, when we all know why most these kids are open enrolling - at the very least be honest about the motivations. IMO - This type of rule would go a long way in protecting HS hockey's integrity.<br><br><br>With that said, I congratulate EP on a fine season and championship - can't argue the fact that they were the best "team" on the ice this past weekend. The "team" was created within the rules of the MSHSL - which allows for open enrollment with no waiting period at all. <br><br>Rube<br><br> <p></p><i></i>

How about allowing the open enrollment but taking those players off any playoff roster the first year? <br><br>You can't restrict open enrollment for myriad reasons, many of which are good ones. Under this plan, players would get to practice and skate a full season with their new team, but not be able to contribute in the post-season which would discourage many "casual" open enrollees but not adversely affect the kid who has good reason to find a new place to play.<br><br>Regarding private schools, as I have pointed out in another post, I don't agree that it's the same case as open enrollment at all. Anyone who has been though it knows that acceptance into a private school comes with increased academic demand, limited availability and a considerable tuition cost that is not a small consideration to either the student or their family. Athletics quickly takes a back seat to academics. And acceptance is not as simple as filling out an open enrollment form. Other than the cinderella AHA team who knocked off two higher seeds in sections, I don't recall seeing other privates in the tourneys this year. <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p100.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUserP ... pitreal</A> at: 2/27/06 5:10 pm<br></i>

Both EP and Coon Rapids had kids that open enrolled... Let's not point fingers to one side and not the other. Great programs attract great people and players. <br><br>Hockeyhead <p></p><i></i>

I think Roseville had all Roseville residents on their team. <p></p><i></i>

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Like, "Why did Holly choose St. Cloud State?"<br><br>Mom, "She wanted to be part of an up-and-coming program."<br><br>Riiiiiight...the St. Cloud times did an article saying she couldn't wait to play in front of the home town crowd.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>However, the response from Holly's mom regarding the SCSU Huskies is quite true I believe...FWIW. Reuniting McCarthy & Pezon, adding Holly and Caitlin Hogan & later Ashley Nixon to previous strong classes of recruits...definitely a program headed upward in the WCHA IMO. <p></p><i></i>

A couple of thoughts - <br><br>1) If you get a transfer from another team that you'll play, consider sitting them out of that game (at least the first game/year/etc.) unless you really need them to win...<br><br>2) Relative to sitting a full year, or sitting out of playoffs, we should then also make the same restriction on any post 9th grade transfer to a private school. I beleive that if you go entering 9th that it's a natural decision point. An easier thing may be to try to get more students to make the jump entering 9th - meaning penalize them more for moving later.... but is that really fair either if a kid is miserable at a certain school academically and/or otherwise???<br><br><br>.<br>.<br>.<br>.<br><br>So what's the solution??? <p></p><i></i>

championships=if you are "aa" you have to play in the kaposia classic. if you don't you have no shot of winning. the "aa" champ has played in the tourney for at least the last 8-9 years.<br><br>i wonder if they will try to retain the quality or drop it because of ssp team's quality drops? <p></p><i></i>

GHS,<br><br>Appreciate your insight as always.... <br><br>The question is "what can be done?".....<br>First, how about a HS coach who has the courage to say "thanks, but no thanks" to an impending transfer, knowing that they are already loaded with talent, and knowing that he wants to allow a few JV players and incoming U14 players a shot at fighting for a spot on the varsity. I know it sounds crazy, but think about it. <br><br>Take EP for instance, most of their superstars are sophs this year, and considering the size and strength of their youth program, do they really have "room" for a few more superstars ?? What do you tell the leading scorer from the U14A team who has played in the youth program all the way up - dreaming of a shot at wearing the varsity sweater ?? Sorry - you have to play JV, or U19 because we had another 3-5 superstars transfer in ??? Come on !!!! At some point there will be a disconnect between the HS/Youth programs - count on it !! That is exactly the reason that youth programs do not allow a player, who waivers in from another assoc., to even tryout for their A team. It just isn't right - we need to have the courage to say so. Not to pick on EP - they aren't the only team that had "drive-in" transfers this past season (Coon Rapids, Centennial, to name a few)<br><br>Second, someone needs to take the lead and propose changes to the rule. I wouldn't even know where to start. Who has the authority to alter/modify open enrollment rules ??? The MSHSL, or the legislature, or ??????? We have a chance to fix this situation now, before it gets way out of hand in the future (hubbaa is right !!). Those teams that want to compete for championships will need to "recruit" open enrollees/transfers. This would be a sad day in girls HS hockey.<br><br>Oh well - I have said my peace on the subject - we'll see if anyone cares enough to take action.<br><br>Rube <p></p><i></i>

If one takes the time to read the open enrollment documentation you won't find any mention of this notion that you can only transfer for academic reasons. Athletics is mentioned only in that you can't turn someone down for their athletic ability or lack there of.<br>The MSHSL controls the rules for eligibility so I believe it is within their power. It is also within the power of any school district. The school district Eagan is in has already enacted a more restictive transfer rule that makes you sit a year unless you and your parents move into the community.<br>The situation with EP and BK is a unique situation and I don't think I would go about changing all the rules because of it. The MSHSL is partially responsible for that situation becasue they forced the breakup of the Bloomington co-op years ago leaving BK with a non competive team until this day. <p></p><i></i>

rube,<br><br>the coach can't tell the kid transferring in that they can't come and play. you set yourself up for a lawsuit that you can't possibly win. regardless what is done there will always be some loophole that can be abused, and will be abused. <br><br>if a kid transfers and happens to be an athlete why punish them? the rules have to be the same for all tranfers regardless of activities they may or may not be involved in. then throw into the mix the privates schools. what is a supposed transfer into a private school? i don't know if there is such a thing. <br><br>it is a very difficult thing to try to fairly address for the school, parents and kids involved. i think to address this issue is beyond the mshsl simply because it would involve more work, money and policeing than they want, and it really isn't worth it to them. <br><br>this problem is already out of hand. look at boys and girls basketball. the star summer leagues are great for the kids but they contribute a lot to kids transferring. <p></p><i></i>

One thing that I find interesting is that I've seen some great examples where a large number of kids leave a school from one sport but then the opposite happens (many come) for another sport within the same school. Both groups will make academic claims for coming and going, but what people miss is that different people have different viewpoints on what fits them best academically, etc.<br><br>My personal feelings are mixed about all of this. It's very American to allow people to pursue their dreams and better opportunities to better themselves if they're willing to put in the extra sacrifice and work. Are we set to block opportunities that may be what's best for some of our young people? Academically we shouldn't, but it sounds like we want to crack down on the athletically motivated aspect. I can understand this feeling, but I need to ask the question that I think all these kids with athletic dreams and a chance at an athletic scholarship may be asking...<br><br>Is the sacrifice of moving to a new school where I know few people that's more academically challenging (usually) that's a great sacrifice/strain transportation and logistically worth it? Will the strong academic and athletic offerings make me more marketable to colleges, coaches in my primary sport, etc.? Will the increased visibility also help my chances of getting seen (through state, other high level players on my team being recruited, etc.) and thought of as a blue chip prospect, and could that even potentially help push me over that point of distinction between "above average D3" and "D1?" Will the academics at the new school also help my case as a strong student AND athlete?<br><br>I think that a lot of this is what is considered, in addition to the idea that a player that is really focused and dedicated wants to seek out like minded opportunities and teammates who play "with a purpose" vs. "just to pass time" (participate). This is the difference between a "hockey player," and "someone who plays hockey."<br><br>One other thing that we don't realize is that while "staying the course" on a below average team is honorable - it's not for everyone obviously. So much in this day and age is so fragile with young kids - and girls especially with what society wrongly expects of them - that what I would hate to see is someone take a hard line on transferring and keeping a kid in a situation where maybe their sport and their passion for it is one bright spot in their lives that keeps them going, and they just become miserable. This can take very drastic turns very quickly in the lives of kids. There shouldn't be a dependence on sports for a sense of self worth, but at the same time there is the potential to see some kids really have their lives turn to other bad things if the athletics mean a lot to them and keep them on the right track and that aspect becomes hard to stand too.<br><br>Without naming names, I've seen very talented kids get so frustrated, that they just quit, focus on the off-season, play other winter sports, play non-school AAA/Sr. Women's, etc. due to the state of their home area team - and that's not good either. Either way, a team in this situation ends up without the player, and the player ends up missing out on part of the HS experience I believe as a result.<br><br>I think that there are so many "exceptions" to what we want to call/label "HS game destroying" transfers, as we only see kid X go from school A to school B. We don't have the details, facts, or true rationale. Maybe, what would really be best, is for the MSHSL to sit down with all these transfers and create a task force that can go about #1 defining the "problem" and why all these kids are moving, and letting people openly explain this rationale without fear of action against them if they tell the truth (i.e. if transfers were more athletically motivated, etc.). #2 then becomes about how the schools/athletic programs involved and the MSHSL address the issues. I don't think that they are going to learn anything they don't already know, but maybe this is the starting point for openly acknowledging issues with certain programs/schools and how they can be worked on to avoid further future problems. <p></p><i></i>

I like Rube's best point - what's going to happen to the youth programs? <br><br>Look at SSP. When the "big 3" were just getting started at SSPHS, they had had a lot of success in the youth program. Then a whole bunch of transfers to SSP appeared and a bunch of the SSPHS girls quit and joined a senior women's league (there were no U-19's around except T-B's and SSM). Where has SSPs youth program been since then? When my daughters were in youth, SSP was a constant thorn in our side - tough to beat. But as my younger one approached high school, SSPs youth program waned and beating them wasn't so tough anymore. And where is the youth program now? GHS says they have a great U10 team. What about U12, U14? Hmm, maybe some kids decided to play basketball instead?<br><br>How many EP girls will do the same when they realize there's a good chance some transfer-in will beat them out of a spot they've worked through the youth program to get?<br><br>As for private schools, that's a different situation IMO. The families have to pay big bucks to go there. The private schools have to recruit every student, not just the athletes.<br><br>And finally there are those who just don't care about the future of youth hockey. Same type of people who grumble about paying taxes for schools after their kids are grown.... <p></p><i></i>

The impact that transfers has on a youth program is difficult to address. I think that Roseville has done well with balancing some transfers years ago (after the early glory, but prior to the recent glory) and keeping their homegrown program solid (obviously from their latest run at state that was entirely homegrown?)...<br><br>To be honest, this is part of the reason that I'm happy being a class A coach. I don't have to worry about having the transfers anymore to compete with others that are getting them @ the AA level. Instead, the concern becomes those we could potentially lose to others, but we just work hard at retaining those, making certain that our top talent is getting recognized and opportunites to develop/promote themselves, while also building the base of our program and all the players involved. This is the small-school recipe for success I think. New Prague is a model program in this respect I think. <p></p><i></i>

green man,<br><br>it's all in the numbers. ssp stopped actively recruiting the internal kids in the ssp schools at the time you are talking about. previous to that time ssp was very good at going to all the grade school elementary students and talking to them and getting them excited about participating in athletics. that has been cancelled, i think the last time they did this was about 5-6 years ago. since then the numbers in athletics across the board have gone down considerably.<br><br>the couple kids that went to the tbreds were disappointed because of the playing time they were getting. both were quality players (i think one is getting a d-1 scholarship now). both played more when they were in 8th grade than when they were in 10th. this playing time had nothing to do with incoming transfers but had a lot to do with work ethic. <p></p><i></i>

Thanks for clarifying, Hubbaa! Edina has had a lot of success going to the schools to drum up interest in the girls program. <br><br>That's sad to hear that SSP stopped doing it. Was that for all sports or just hockey? Either way it's a shame.<br><br>As for the older girls, I was not referring to T-breds. I was told there was a loss of a fairly large number of girls and they formed a team that played in a senior women's league. Perhaps I had been given bad info. <p></p><i></i>

green,<br><br>it was stopped for all athletics at ssp. the town over the past 15 years is also becoming a much more diverse town in the past which suggests the number of students interested in hockey as opposed to basketball or football is much less than what it used to be. so for the hockey program this isn't good news but as ghs suggested in the past it is a town with people that are very loyal to it, which suggests many people either move back into the community or some that currently live outside the community will still send their kids to school there. so they still have some excellent hockey blood but it needs to be supplemented and the internal recruiting program has had a horrible affect on some of the athletic teams, girls hockey being the most obvious. <br><br>as far as the girls forming a sr team i really don't know, possibly. if that happened i think those girls were probably not really varsity material or it happened very recently? either way i agree it would be nice to have things as they were in the past when no one transferred.... i would be willing to bet edina has or will have a problem with girls transferring out to privates? <p></p><i></i>