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TTpuckster wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:37 pm Hard to say, but I agree with Elliott.
(Boy that was painful).

elliott70 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:27 pm And if Team A beats Team B
Tema B beats Team C
And Team C beats Team A????

Team A beats Team B when Team B starting goal tender is out with the flu.

Coaches voting works IF the coaches are playing all or most of the teams in their section,
AND they are honest and not playing games.

Coach Randolph was accused of playing games but who knows when a coach honestly feels about another team, or they are trying to manipulate the system.

QRF is close by season end but not nearly perfect.

Pagestat gives great results but who is to say that cannot be fooled with.

Even Karl and ClassAguy are not without sin.

Bottom line is.....
I have no idea what the ideal system is but pagestat would be my choice.

east hockey wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:49 pm

elliott70 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:27 pm And if Team A beats Team B
Tema B beats Team C
And Team C beats Team A????

Team A beats Team B when Team B starting goal tender is out with the flu.

Coaches voting works IF the coaches are playing all or most of the teams in their section,
AND they are honest and not playing games.

Coach Randolph was accused of playing games but who knows when a coach honestly feels about another team, or they are trying to manipulate the system.

QRF is close by season end but not nearly perfect.

Pagestat gives great results but who is to say that cannot be fooled with.

Even Karl and ClassAguy are not without sin.

Bottom line is.....
I have no idea what the ideal system is but pagestat would be my choice.

Wait until next season. I'm working on a "Likeability Index" for all the teams which will be factored in after their initial PageStat rating is calculated. If that works, a two-dice system will be implemented so some random variability is included.

Lee

elliott70 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 4:37 pm

east hockey wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:49 pm

elliott70 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:27 pm And if Team A beats Team B
Tema B beats Team C
And Team C beats Team A????

Team A beats Team B when Team B starting goal tender is out with the flu.

Coaches voting works IF the coaches are playing all or most of the teams in their section,
AND they are honest and not playing games.

Coach Randolph was accused of playing games but who knows when a coach honestly feels about another team, or they are trying to manipulate the system.

QRF is close by season end but not nearly perfect.

Pagestat gives great results but who is to say that cannot be fooled with.

Even Karl and ClassAguy are not without sin.

Bottom line is.....
I have no idea what the ideal system is but pagestat would be my choice.

Wait until next season. I'm working on a "Likeability Index" for all the teams which will be factored in after their initial PageStat rating is calculated. If that works, a two-dice system will be implemented so some random variability is included.

Lee

It must be nice to be retired

East Side Pioneer Guy wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:07 pm I thinking seeding should be a prediction of the likelihood of a team to win a tournament.

I probably would have weighted a team's record more so in the past. But the game is different today. Coaches don't worry much about early season results. Sure, everybody wants to win every game, and to not get blown out. But losing a tight early season game to a quality opponent doesn't seem to be nearly as concerning as it was 20 years ago. And early season is pretty well anything before Jan 1. Typically, Hill and White Bear meet before Christmas, and when they meet in late Feb or March, the chatter isn't about the Dec game; its more about how the two have been playing more recently.

It seems like state tournament seeding is based on predicted success more so than section tournaments.

East Side Pioneer Guy wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:07 pm I thinking seeding should be a prediction of the likelihood of a team to win a tournament.

I probably would have weighted a team's record more so in the past. But the game is different today. Coaches don't worry much about early season results. Sure, everybody wants to win every game, and to not get blown out. But losing a tight early season game to a quality opponent doesn't seem to be nearly as concerning as it was 20 years ago. And early season is pretty well anything before Jan 1. Typically, Hill and White Bear meet before Christmas, and when they meet in late Feb or March, the chatter isn't about the Dec game; its more about how the two have been playing more recently.

It seems like state tournament seeding is based on predicted success more so than section tournaments.

SEC Scotty wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:39 pm

East Side Pioneer Guy wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:07 pm I thinking seeding should be a prediction of the likelihood of a team to win a tournament.

I probably would have weighted a team's record more so in the past. But the game is different today. Coaches don't worry much about early season results. Sure, everybody wants to win every game, and to not get blown out. But losing a tight early season game to a quality opponent doesn't seem to be nearly as concerning as it was 20 years ago. And early season is pretty well anything before Jan 1. Typically, Hill and White Bear meet before Christmas, and when they meet in late Feb or March, the chatter isn't about the Dec game; its more about how the two have been playing more recently.

It seems like state tournament seeding is based on predicted success more so than section tournaments.

Ok. Who’s making the predictions?

East Side Pioneer Guy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 5:48 am
The coaches.

Yes, yes, I know they're not perfect, I know they come with biases and axes to grind. No system is ideal. Well, no practical system. At some point, you have to just drop the puck and play the game, and the winner is determined by whoever scores more goals.

We can't have 11 camera angles and review every play. It's a game, and games are about having fun. At the end of the day, we shouldn't take it too seriously.

East Side Pioneer Guy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 5:48 am

SEC Scotty wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:39 pm

East Side Pioneer Guy wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:07 pm I thinking seeding should be a prediction of the likelihood of a team to win a tournament.

I probably would have weighted a team's record more so in the past. But the game is different today. Coaches don't worry much about early season results. Sure, everybody wants to win every game, and to not get blown out. But losing a tight early season game to a quality opponent doesn't seem to be nearly as concerning as it was 20 years ago. And early season is pretty well anything before Jan 1. Typically, Hill and White Bear meet before Christmas, and when they meet in late Feb or March, the chatter isn't about the Dec game; its more about how the two have been playing more recently.

It seems like state tournament seeding is based on predicted success more so than section tournaments.

Ok. Who’s making the predictions?

We can't have 11 camera angles and review every play. It's a game, and games are about having fun. At the end of the day, we shouldn't take it too seriously.

East Side Pioneer Guy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 10:14 am I'd give far more weight to a game played on Feb 10 than a game played on Dec 10. If the buggy only head to head game was in Dec, I just don't see that as having much bearing on seeding that takes place on Feb 18th.

In any case, a coach can use whatever parameters he cares to use. Using records, whether head to head or overall, would not yield a clear result. There is way too much variance in scheduling.

And don't start with this "ditch conferences and play two games against each section team" nonsense. It might work for fut-buh, but not for hockey. I don't want my Pioneers wasting two games each against Roseville, Gentry, and Mounds View.

BlueLineSpecial wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 10:55 am

East Side Pioneer Guy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 10:14 am I'd give far more weight to a game played on Feb 10 than a game played on Dec 10. If the buggy only head to head game was in Dec, I just don't see that as having much bearing on seeding that takes place on Feb 18th.

In any case, a coach can use whatever parameters he cares to use. Using records, whether head to head or overall, would not yield a clear result. There is way too much variance in scheduling.

And don't start with this "ditch conferences and play two games against each section team" nonsense. It might work for fut-buh, but not for hockey. I don't want my Pioneers wasting two games each against Roseville, Gentry, and Mounds View.

I don't disagree, and I'm sure the coaches are considering those types of things. The reality though is that at the end of the day, your record is your record when it's being used to seed teams. Thats whether the W's came in December of February. If one team is 5-3 against section teams but went 0-3 in February, they need to be seeded higher than the team that goes 3-5 against section teams but went 3-0 in February. If all things are equal record-wise, then sure, whomever is hotter may deserve a higher seed.

East Side Pioneer Guy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 12:19 pm

BlueLineSpecial wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 10:55 am

East Side Pioneer Guy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 10:14 am I'd give far more weight to a game played on Feb 10 than a game played on Dec 10. If the buggy only head to head game was in Dec, I just don't see that as having much bearing on seeding that takes place on Feb 18th.

In any case, a coach can use whatever parameters he cares to use. Using records, whether head to head or overall, would not yield a clear result. There is way too much variance in scheduling.

And don't start with this "ditch conferences and play two games against each section team" nonsense. It might work for fut-buh, but not for hockey. I don't want my Pioneers wasting two games each against Roseville, Gentry, and Mounds View.

I don't disagree, and I'm sure the coaches are considering those types of things. The reality though is that at the end of the day, your record is your record when it's being used to seed teams. Thats whether the W's came in December of February. If one team is 5-3 against section teams but went 0-3 in February, they need to be seeded higher than the team that goes 3-5 against section teams but went 3-0 in February. If all things are equal record-wise, then sure, whomever is hotter may deserve a higher seed.

Well, that's only reality for coaches who accept your position. Nothing binds coaches to using overall records, or intra-section records, or anything else.

Once we move outside a subjective system, we would have some sort of algorithm, which of course would not have any controversy, and would always make perfect sense, amiright?

In any case, overall records are a poor basis for comparison. Teams schedules are just to varied.

Einstein said that not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted.

East Side Pioneer Guy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 5:48 am

SEC Scotty wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:39 pm

East Side Pioneer Guy wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:07 pm I thinking seeding should be a prediction of the likelihood of a team to win a tournament.

I probably would have weighted a team's record more so in the past. But the game is different today. Coaches don't worry much about early season results. Sure, everybody wants to win every game, and to not get blown out. But losing a tight early season game to a quality opponent doesn't seem to be nearly as concerning as it was 20 years ago. And early season is pretty well anything before Jan 1. Typically, Hill and White Bear meet before Christmas, and when they meet in late Feb or March, the chatter isn't about the Dec game; its more about how the two have been playing more recently.

It seems like state tournament seeding is based on predicted success more so than section tournaments.

Ok. Who’s making the predictions?

The coaches.

Yes, yes, I know they're not perfect, I know they come with biases and axes to grind. No system is ideal. Well, no practical system. At some point, you have to just drop the puck and play the game, and the winner is determined by whoever scores more goals.

We can't have 11 camera angles and review every play. It's a game, and games are about having fun. At the end of the day, we shouldn't take it too seriously.

East Side Pioneer Guy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 12:19 pm

BlueLineSpecial wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 10:55 am

East Side Pioneer Guy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 10:14 am I'd give far more weight to a game played on Feb 10 than a game played on Dec 10. If the buggy only head to head game was in Dec, I just don't see that as having much bearing on seeding that takes place on Feb 18th.

In any case, a coach can use whatever parameters he cares to use. Using records, whether head to head or overall, would not yield a clear result. There is way too much variance in scheduling.

And don't start with this "ditch conferences and play two games against each section team" nonsense. It might work for fut-buh, but not for hockey. I don't want my Pioneers wasting two games each against Roseville, Gentry, and Mounds View.

I don't disagree, and I'm sure the coaches are considering those types of things. The reality though is that at the end of the day, your record is your record when it's being used to seed teams. Thats whether the W's came in December of February. If one team is 5-3 against section teams but went 0-3 in February, they need to be seeded higher than the team that goes 3-5 against section teams but went 3-0 in February. If all things are equal record-wise, then sure, whomever is hotter may deserve a higher seed.

Well, that's only reality for coaches who accept your position. Nothing binds coaches to using overall records, or intra-section records, or anything else.

Once we move outside a subjective system, we would have some sort of algorithm, which of course would not have any controversy, and would always make perfect sense, amiright?

In any case, overall records are a poor basis for comparison. Teams schedules are just to varied.

Einstein said that not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted.

SEC Scotty wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 12:46 pm

East Side Pioneer Guy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 09, 2023 5:48 am

SEC Scotty wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:39 pm
Ok. Who’s making the predictions?

The coaches.

Yes, yes, I know they're not perfect, I know they come with biases and axes to grind. No system is ideal. Well, no practical system. At some point, you have to just drop the puck and play the game, and the winner is determined by whoever scores more goals.

We can't have 11 camera angles and review every play. It's a game, and games are about having fun. At the end of the day, we shouldn't take it too seriously.

Video replay is ruining all sports. That’s why high school hockey is so great. 5 bucks to get in with the old fart discount, 3 bucks for popcorn, no commercial breaks, replays and other BS.