Junior B or High School?

RLStars · Post by **RLStars** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:08 am

Should a junior in High School play Varsity or go Junior B? Lets say you have a top three varsity player on an average to below average AA hockey team who got about 15-20 points his sophomore year and is offer a junior B contract. Would playing his junior year with a Junior B team be more beneficial to extending his hockey career after high school (College Hockey)? What are the chances of a Junior B player making a Junior A or USHL roster after his junior and senior year vs. being a top two player on said team this year and the top player his senior year? One top hockey mind said that if the kid isn't getting forty points and all conference honors his junior or senior year, he will never advance out of the junior B ranks as a junior or senior. He said to stay in HS and become that impact player before even thinking about juniors juniors. Any thoughts?

juniorhockey · Post by **juniorhockey** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 1:43 pm

Despite Junior B hockey getting much better in the last five years here in Minnesota, it would probably be better to stay in High School. Ask about playing a 'ten and ten', or a before and after program allowing him to play both.

EREmpireStrikesBack · Tue Jun 21, 2005 10:24 pm

I'd say stay in HS. Junior B's isn't the best hockey. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... lasses.gif ALT="8)">

NPGandyDancer · Post by **NPGandyDancer** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 8:09 am

rl, a good case study is chris berenguer from eden prairie. the only exception to his situation is that he opted to stay through his senior year at ep...and had an average year at that. he played juniors in texas, attaining some excellent stats, making an all-star team and now is looking at a tryout with a ushl team this fall. if he attains his goal of getting a d-1 offer...then he has to cut it with the books/grades aspect of his college career. might be tough. but, good luck to him...he took a different "career" path than senior smoke!

hockeydad1515 · Post by **hockeydad1515** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 3:25 pm

RL- If you are asking yourself what to do I beleive you are asking the wrong people. Since this is a high school hockey board, people have no experience with Junior B hockey in here, and have a high school hockey mind set. Of course all their answers will be to stay in HS. Now if you asked this in a junior hockey forum, everyone would say leave. Junior B hockey is great hockey, those who say otherwise in here have either not experienced it, not been involved, nor had a son who played. Maybe they have heard a story, or rumor, or someone elses son, but thats all it is stories and rumors, NOT FACTS! People are reading a label, not a recipe.....I bet those same people dont know the structures, organization, and cycles of junior hockey. Playing junior hockey at any age takes a certain type of player, someone who can adjust to the higher tempo and a person who can take a body check as in junior A and B everyone finishes their hits. Many players from the Minnesota HS Hockey have gone on to play in the MNJHL (www.mnjhl.com) but not until they have graduated high school (go online and see every teams roster). So now when they enter Junior B they have 2 years of eligibility. They do well and put up points, and go on to sucessful Division 3 careers. Now why dont a lot of junior B players go onto A's, because of their B-days, again, its because they didnt play 'B" until after HS, ask any NAHL or USHL team, if they could choose between the same talented player out of Junior B, player one is 17 and player two is 20, they will take the 17 year old. Junior A's like younger B-day's, look at the facts: USHL draft this year (<a href="http://www.ushl.com/draft/2005/results. ...  Most players came from programs where they played 50 plus games, not 26 like in MN HS Hockey. Now, about your qoute from a top hockey mind, remember back to the Tier 1 USHL and B-Day status. Lets say your son does stay at home, and is an impact player for low end team (remember, its only HS Hockey, impact there doesnt mean anything!) his talent will be wasted because if his talent sprang early, he will platuea, and have nothing to push him on to bring his talent up to the next level. f he has nothing to challenge himself, how will he improve by doing the routine over again for 2 more years against the same teams in the same program........atleast in juniors he will mature faster, be challenged more, and has a better shot of bettering himself with more games, better talent, and more scouts to come watch him. If what you want to is the facts and the research, you will not find it in here ina room full of bias' and people who have no idea about what they are talking about most of the time. Here is what I would do: Call up a couple USHL teams and tell them about the situation you are in. They will guide you in what route you need to go. Next, call up this junior B team and ask for a list iof all parents whose sons played there in the past couple years, I bet that the biggest complaint would be that they wish their son would of played earlier. Your son is a sophmore, very young and he sounds talented. USHL is where we wants to end up, well, he is at the right age. Since the USHL went Tier 1, they need to meet a certain requirement of young B-days, your son has some time to meet this criteria still. You have a great opportunity in front of you, remember that you son cannot just step onto the ice and shine like he can in HS, he will only get out of juniors what he puts in. Most MN players who go on dont realize that, and those are the ones who dont make it and end up home early........

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 6:17 am

hockeydad is right. This is the wrong place to get that info. I've been scouting hockey for years and the MJHL has never gotten the credit it should have. RL if your young and you get into a good program like the Rochester or Dubuque teams your in good shape. Take the jump. Some programs in the MJHL don't seem to be moving in the right direction, or they are just slowly moving ahead. The two teams I mentioned (Dubuque Thunderbirds and Minnesota Ice Hawks) are pretty comparable to Jr. A teams as far as coaching, icetime, fan support, ect. Last season I was scouting a game between the two in Rochester an I was just blown away by the whole show. 2000+ fans (which is more than the average) and the talent was very, very good. Now I know most people on this chatboard are die hard fans of HS hockey, the Rochester team had 19 former MN High School hockey players, 18 of the 19 were All Conference players in the MN High School Hockey League. Now to say that B in general "isn't that great" as one of our esteemed posters has said, is incorrect and short sighted. With the age limitations in the USHL it's getting to the point that HS So and Jr are having to leave early just to get a shot at that brass ring. I would say if your looking at the Ice Hawks yes, make the move. If your looking at Dubuque wait until the Thunderbirds get a coach and meet with him and get a read on him before you make the jump. Hope this helped!<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D">

Newguy99 · Post by **Newguy99** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 1:40 pm

Just because this is a HS hockey board doesn't mean that people have no experience with junior hockey. I played in the USHL and my opinion of Junior B is that it is not very good hockey. Junior B hockey is good for players who don't want to hang up the skates quite yet. To answer the question: stay in HS NO DOUBT!

hockeydad1515 · Post by **hockeydad1515** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 5:34 pm

New Guy- I played in the USHL as well, back in old days in Austin, MN. My son played junior B and so did many of his friends. They all played 2 years and went on to play in the MIAC, and for the most part they had sucessful careers. One of their teammates in junior B is actually in the Carolina farm system, I beleive his name was Sean Curry. Junior B for them wasnt there so they could play extra hockey, it was there to develope them on to play college hockey. Going to college, hmmm, big waste I guess for them...... You have the right to your opinion, just bring me some better facts then an odd statement. I am sure they are some people that have experience being with the wrong program. But to put a judgement over everything else? How many years ago did you play in the USHL?

EREmpireStrikesBack · Post by **EREmpireStrikesBack** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 8:15 pm

I'm sorry, but I'm with NewGuy on this one. How many guys on any D1 program in the country have played Junior B's? Not very many. Stay in HS with friends and all the HS stuff, play competitive hockey, maybe go to State then play Junior A's or Junior B's. HS hockey in most cases will be better than Junior B's. Don't get me wrong, as was pointed out there are a few programs out there that are very strong and good caliber, but most aren't. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/glasses.gif ALT="8)"> Elk River AA State Champions- 2001 Boys & 2004 Girls

Newguy99 · Post by **Newguy99** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 10:42 pm

Well I played in the USHL about 5 years ago. Obviously there is exception to every rule but junior B or HS isn't even a question. ER makes a good point about D1 and junior B's. I was fortunate enough to be pursued and not have to venture out and find a place to play. In my personal experiences I have seen very average players play junior B. For example, my senior year we cut a kid from our HS team and the following year he was playing for the WBL Lakers, and my HS team was very average. All in all I see it as an o.k. league at best.

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 10:59 pm

Play out your HS years and burn 75% of your chance to play in the USHL. Play for a very good HS team and your 25% is still alive! Below average HS team...not much chance. HS hockey is good for the kid who can't move on to Jr.s or don't need to(big program, good expouser). If you can advance you should. I would have put the Minnesota Ice Hawks or Dubuque Thunderbirds up against any HS team in the state the past two years. Like I said before 17 of the 18 MN players were All Conference. Newguy99 all you see the the MJHL is "o.k. at best"? Look again, you need to look at the speed, skill and the amout of games they play. It's a step up from HS, ask some of the kids that are trying to make the jump this season, they will let you know.

RLStars · Post by **RLStars** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:46 am

Er There is no chance in H E double hockey sticks that our HS team will make it to state. I have two words that will sum it up for you. 1. Moorhead 2.Roseau. Our squad is getting better, but state is a pipe dream. Question for you. How many guys are playing D1 from a AA HS team that is ranked 100 or lower in Minnesota? Thats the bottom third HS teams. In my original post, I question what would be best for this player to play past HS (D1 or D3). Remember, I said average to below average HS team, not top 15 in the state, that would be a no brainer. Do you think the T-Birds or the IceHawks are better then a 100th rank MN HS Varsity team or even a lower level Junior A team and should a top two or three player on that team play Junior B his junior and or senior eligable years? When your HS team has two or three top level players, its pretty easy for Elk River etc. to nuetralize them with thier top players. I think its going to be a long shot to have a player looked at by a USHL or even a NAHL scout. I do believe that those scouts will watch a top level Junior B team. I may be wrong about that. BTW, spell check doesn't seem to be working, I know how you hate it when its not used.<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D"> Edited by: <A HREF=http://p074.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUserP ... RLStars</A> at: 6/24/05 10:09 am

goldy313 · Post by **goldy313** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 10:36 am

In the MJHL, there are two teams worth anything, the Ice Hawks and the T-Birds. If he could play at one of those programs go ahead. The rest is low to mid level high school at best. The top scorer in the league last year (2003-2004), doubled the next closest kid in total points and did not move up a league even though he was 19. That ought to tell you everything you need to know about Jr. B hockey. There are scouts at some Jr B games, though I saw more scouts at 1 Virginia high school game than I did at 10 Ice Hawk games. Como Park is a consistantly low rated team, but they have had a few kids come out of there recently. If you play good competition you'll be seen.

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 1:29 am

I am a "scout" and not the kind who isn't compensated for his time<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D"> . I wouldn't waste my time watching most HS teams in MN. I did make many trips to MN but it was to watch the usual suspects, Moorhead, Holy Angles, Warroad, ect. but I did make sure to stop to catch a game or two in Rochester each time I was in MN. I know that over the past 3 years I have never seen a game in Rochester with less than 2 Jr.A/USHL or NCAA scouts in the stands. I have however been the only scout in many HS buildings in MN. Most of the time watching 2 teams that have no prayer of playing in the State Tourney HOPING to find the diamond in the rough. I have found some, but not many. Play for a good Jr. team and no real coach will look past you. I know of 10 MJHL players from last year that were/are going to be offered at the D-1 level. If they want D-1 they will get it. Some kids know that D-3 is for them, not all kids are blind with the D-1 light in their face. Some want to play and know that the education is the key to the college not the number after the D. Now if we could make every team keep Harvard standers in the classroom<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/roll.gif ALT=":rollin"> . we would have 5 D-1 teams in the world<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> RLStars you know what is right, if your getting offers from the good programs, go, if not, transfer to Roseau<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)"> You'll be just fine in Jr. B or HS. Whats better? Your not going to get a REAL answer in this or any form because it depends on the player and the program. Good luck and I hope I'll see you skate this year! Pete

hockeydad1515 · Post by **hockeydad1515** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 9:28 am

I still pay close attention to the MNJHL, so I know who you are taking about, the Ice Hawks leading scorer, on the MNJHL website it was Brad Wiechmann, from Austin, MN. I remember last year he was drafted into the NAHL by Youngstown. Mac, you are a scout, did he just not want to leave the Ice Hawks? Didnt the Ice Hawks have those twin brothers too that wer drafted as well? Anyword on where they are now?

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 11:27 am

Brad Wiechman, Cole Hughes, Joey Spracklen, ect...they were all called by "upper level" teams during the season. The kids on the Ice Hawks felt and I think they were right in thinking they were as good as a middle of the pack NAHL team. Why move to a program where making money is the main goal only to leave a program that is only concerned with your wellfare? Expecialy if the hockey isn't that much better! Who couldn't see the Ice Hawks as a NAHL team in the near future? Heck, Owatonna has one<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/eek.gif ALT=":eek"> . The only problem the Ice Hawks would have is they need to see more $$ and worry less about the kids for that to happen and those people involved aren't going to have that. It's sad but Jr. A's don't HAVE to care about the kids, they need to make money. MJHL teams, I think, are all Non-Profit. Ahh yes the two who got away from me! James and Joel Gaulrapp are in Markham Ontario playing for the historic Markham Waxers, and being pursued by a few D-1 teams. These two kids are the real deal, but let's not forget, very good HS players who would be in a much better situation if they would have left HS earler. With an extra season at the Jr. level they would be a lock for almost any D-1 teams. Look at the MJHL, the younger kids who play, do well. The older kids who play, play college if they so desire. Granted its "only" D-3. Playing college hockey is college hockey, how many kids transfer from D-1 schools to D-3 schools every year? A TON! The MJHL is a great place to be, just like HS hockey in MN is. As was said before, see who you can talk to about the program, past players, parents, ect. People who have the knowledge of the situation at hand, but I think you know already what is the best course of action.

hockeydad1515 · Post by **hockeydad1515** » Sun Jun 26, 2005 8:58 am

ER- To answer your question about how many players on D1 rosters played junior B hockey, answer depends on if you were an American or Canadien player. Canada does not have a lot HS hockey school, so mnay players start off young at the Junior B levels go to Junior A's and then head up to D1. Northern Michigan in the CCHA actually had 2 players in the past come from Canadien Junior B (I was bored last night decided to do some stats work on all this as the wife wouldnt let me go out!). However, for the American players, we have both routes to go, Junior B or High School, and again I guess it goes down to age I guess when you play.

hockeydad1515 · Post by **hockeydad1515** » Sun Jun 26, 2005 9:02 am

Goldy- Virginai also had two 8th and a 9th grader playing on Varsity whom were very talented (and remember young). They also had a player who already has committed D1 and could be a draft pick this year. Just like watching a Warroad or a Moorehead game, I would hope they have a lot of scouts there.

goldy313 · Post by **goldy313** » Sun Jun 26, 2005 10:53 pm

That's my point, if you play good competition the scouts will show. Niskanen brought a lot, more than saw 10 Ice Hawks games, let alone any Rochester high school games. Scouts show up to watch certain kids, if someone else on the ice impresses them than that's a bonus. Alex Kangas was CUT from the elite league but was the #3 overall draft pick in the USHL. If you're good they'll find you. I'd look into acedemics, that's what you'll be doing the next 40-45 years anyways, not playing hockey. Can your son take a couple years off of school and still succeed? Like someone said the USHL is for money, don't buy the school stuff. The Ice HAwks practice at like 9-11 am 2-3 times a week, that's a lot of school missed. It's tough to go back once you quit. Only you and he know the answer.

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:45 am

From the Ice Hawks website- On ice practices are scheduled early mornings 3 to 5 days per week. In addition, dry land, conditioning and weight training sessions are scheduled on several late afternoons or early evenings on non-game days. and The Ice Hawks play a competitive 50 – 60 game schedule. All in all they are on the ice 6 days a week. Sometimes 7 days a week! As far as I know they have the same practice schedule as the USHL team had, with less travel for games. The Hawks have a understanding with the high schools that give the players "Off" classes or lunches during the practice times. A few years ago I was interested in a player from Northern MN who was a SR in high school and playing in Rochester for the Hawks. He drew more scouts BECAUSE he was playing Jr.s! Everyone who came to watch him wanted to see him play with the big boys day in and day out. When he not only survived the MJHL but excelled he was a sure thing for Jr. A. Take a look around this summer and look at all the "High School Hockey Stars" that are getting cut from Jr. A team after Jr. A team. They made an impact at the HS level as JR and stayed for their SR year and put up monster numbers. Now they are going to be in the MJHL or out of hockey all together. The player in qustion can be their now, and not in two years. It's like at work, you work hard and develop and get promoted. Then in the new job you work hard and then you get promoted. It's a cycle, the problem is that's how hockey works but people get blinded and think HS is the end all and be all of the hockey chain. It's isn't, it's a fun place to be, but if your looking for a step to advance in the hockey chain you need to move up. "Up" may not be some teams in the MJHL but when it's one of the big 2 it is a step. I don't mean to knock the other teams in the MJHL but it's the coaching and the development program that give you that leg up. Most MJHL teams don't do all they need to to promote and develop, not saying they don't they just don't do as much as Dubuque and nowhere near as much as Rochester. The Dubuque program might not be all that great for the next few years. As of now they have no coach and a messed up idea on what they are looking for in a coach. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p074.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUserP ... nhs>Mac</A> at: 6/27/05 7:48 am

hockeydad1515 · Post by **hockeydad1515** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:16 am

Mac- Off classes during practice times? So that means like a study hall and a lunch period in the mornings while the Hawks practice , you go back to school after practice and hit your core classes the rest of the day? You hit your core classes and get a full days worth of credit while you practice in the morning, sounds like a winner to me, no education lost. Do the Ice Hawks have academic standards a player has to achieve to stay eligible to play during the season while in HS? Mac, you sure know your stuff......enlighten me some more......

Sk8rStud · Post by **Sk8rStud** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 11:53 am

Mac, you seem to know an awful lot about the Ice Hawks. Who do you scout for, the Ice Hawks? It seems rather funny that your first and only posts are on this subject and that you registered on June 22 along with another supporter of Junior B over HS by the user name hockeydad1515.

Kodiak · Post by **Kodiak** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 1:06 pm

I'll admit it right away... I'm a staunch supporter of high school hockey, and I don't like it when kids leave early to play Juniors... A, but especially B! First of all, I think these kids should be playing multiple sports... lots of good hockey schools are also strong in baseball and football because of the high quality athletes provided by the hockey program. There is also the high school experience, lots of things are missed by these players. Granted, Junior B is a better place for SOME due to differences with the coach, trouble in school, transfer too many times, etc... could be just about any reason. The fact remains the same... if the player is good enough to play college hockey, he'll be noticed, and it doesn't matter what team he plays for. If the player is just not good enough when he leaves high school, junior B is a good option if he wants to play in college. What I'm trying to say is this: good players get noticed, mediocre players need time to improve, and some guys will just be good High School hockey players, and there's no shame in that whatsoever. It's up to the kids and parents to decide what is best for the individual. If most families thought Junior B was the answer we would have hundreds of Junior B teams in the state. As it stands, we have hundreds of high school teams, so I guess we know what's best for MOST, but not ALL. Junior B is best for SOME players, but remaining in High School is best for MOST players.

hockeydad1515 · Post by **hockeydad1515** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 5:30 pm

Skater stud- I have seen this topic be debated outside of this for years, just thought now would be a nice tiime to join the board, I find it rather amusing myself..... Kodiak- When I grew up in the MN HS ranks, I was a 3 sport athlete, its tough now for kids who want to play many sports growing up cause now everything seems year round, it is tough for a kids to enjoy multiple things. You are right and make a good point, its what is best for that player. Unfortantly, not many parents see it that way anymore.

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 9:21 pm

Check out this link and you'll get a good idea of who I am. <a href="http://www.usacollegehockey.com/cgi-bin ...  It may have been my first post on here but I've posted once or twice before.<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D"> I don't scout for any Jr. teams anymore, I've got a nice gig over the pond now. I scouted the Ice Hawks coach back in the day when he played Jr. You can read all about this from my posts on the other site. Coach Fatis and the rest of the staff has become close to my heart. The Nick knows the game well and always thinks of players welfare above all other things...even ones that aren't on his team. He and the rest of the Ice Hawks staff has gone well above and beyond the call of duty to help promote players. Many times when their own coach hasn't helped at all. This happen more than you would like to think in HS hockey. From scouting for so many years it's not often you find people like that in hockey, so yeah, I guess I do over do it with my backing of the Hawks but you would too if you get to know the program. I hate to hurt your or any other fans feelings but HS Hockey in MN or Jr. Hockey at any level, isn't the end all and be all of the hockey world. All I do know is looking at your "career" as ending at 18...it's sad and pretty depressing to think about. Let's face it like I posted this before, a lot of the kids who are falling in to Jr. B teams this and over the past 3-4 years, were standouts as So and Jr in the MN High School League, and still are "just" Jr. B players because of the age restrictions in the USHL. Is playing for Moorhead HS is better than playing for the Ice Hawks? Sure it is. Don't forget though, last year 17 of the 18 Minnesota players on the Hawks were Minnesota All Conference or HM All Conference players in MN. How many players on Moorhead were All Conference? They had what? 15, 16 SR's last year? They aren’t all going to make Jr. A/college teams. For some of them playing up a level and not behind some of the fantastic talent the Spuds had, would/could have made a difference in their development. The old saying, "You get from average to good in practise. You get from good to great in games!" If your not on one of the big guns in MNHSL, a very good Jr. B team is as good for your development...if you can make it.

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Junior B or High School?

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