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People often tell me how they like tag-up off-sides better because it is easier to watch because the game has fewer stoppages. As we know, the reason Squirts and Pee Wees play "automatic" off-sides is because USA Hockey leaders would like young players to learn the concept of puck possession. Teaching them at young ages to skate with the puck, get their head up, and find an open teammate for a regroup makes sense.

My question is does this work?

They should have tag-up offsides no question. Nothing irritates me more than the offside nazi official. It kills the flow of the game, slows it way down, and gets boring. If I wanted to watch a slow boring game, I would have my kid play basketball.

skipperj wrote:They should have tag-up offsides no question. Nothing irritates me more than the offside nazi official. It kills the flow of the game, slows it way down, and gets boring. If I wanted to watch a slow boring game, I would have my kid play basketball.

Not sure OTown Clown asked if you were irritated. Obviously you are but he wanted to know if the reason for the rule was working. I would say that's hard to judge. I'm not a fan of the rule either for the same reasons Skip describes but is it making our defensman or forwards more skilled? I don't know. Maybe. There's really no way to score that at home is there?

I'm more irritated by driving to Winnipeg and getting a 16 year old ref for my kids game. Or by our district games where the zamboni driver hits the buzzer in a 3-2 game with 2 mins left because the ice hour is over. Automatic offsides is about #8 on the list of irritations.

Jolt-

Get rid of the automatic offsides and that will make up at LEAST 5 minutes of every game, so the zamboni won't have to hit the buzzer with 2 minutes left in a 3-2 game. Automatic off sides doesn't encourage kids to look for an open teammate. Put checking back in the game if you want to teach the kids to start looking for the open man.

O-townClown wrote:People often tell me how they like tag-up off-sides better because it is easier to watch because the game has fewer stoppages. As we know, the reason Squirts and Pee Wees play "automatic" off-sides is because USA Hockey leaders would like young players to learn the concept of puck possession. Teaching them at young ages to skate with the puck, get their head up, and find an open teammate for a regroup makes sense.

My question is does this work?

Don't know if it actually works.
It would be hard to find data to support it.
If there are some yoot coaches out there that have been coaching Pee Wees and squirts for awhile, maybe they have insight.
Personally, I think, for squirts and Pee Wees, it is a good idea.
Just for the reasons you stated above.
Coaches?

[quote="skipperj"]They should have tag-up offsides no question. Nothing irritates me more than the offside nazi official. It kills the flow of the game, slows it way down, and gets boring. If I wanted to watch a slow boring game, I would have my kid play basketball.[/quote]

Don't mean to correct you, but I think you meant Girls hockey

There are plays that happen when I think a hybrid rule would be nice. But a deliberate "dump" of the puck with players inside the zone is not a "skill" play and should not be allowed a "tag up". But there are some close plays at the Blue line when a tag up would allow the game to continue without the need for a face-off.

Watch a lower level HS Varsity or most JV games. You will see how quickly players regress to dumping the puck rather than have to make a skill play. Bring that down to youth and you will see constant dumping. AND you will see coaches screaming to dump the puck. Dumping is not a skill play.

Maybe off-topic, but I like the "race to the hash-mark" touch up icing.

Rather than bringing back the tag-up I would rather see the delayed offside brought back. The offense team gains nothing and the defensive team has a chance to clear their zone. The reason the delayed offside was changed to the automatic was because the officials were not consistent on this call.
This should be a rules change for USA Hockey this year, while I doubt the tag up rule would be brought back at all levels maybe a well crafted delayed offside rule might have a chance.

Deep Breath wrote:Jolt-

Get rid of the automatic offsides and that will make up at LEAST 5 minutes of every game, so the zamboni won't have to hit the buzzer with 2 minutes left in a 3-2 game. Automatic off sides doesn't encourage kids to look for an open teammate. Put checking back in the game if you want to teach the kids to start looking for the open man.

Agreed!

delayed off-sides all the way.

Going from summer tag-up rules to association automatic off-sides is frustrating for the kids, coaches, and MOST importantly ... me.

One of the reason tag up looks good in the summer now is because kids learn they have to regroup during the winter, if you open it up coaches will have players dump at all cost. Sad but true.

I think we have a good balance in MN, check-no check, tag up-no tag. Kind of get the best of both.

I can't tell from the responses if people think it works or not. A few people say that if you let kids dump it in their coaches will always have them dump it in. I'll read between those lines and say it is working then.

If it is working, why so much resistance? My suspicion is that the rule exposes the fact that many kids lack the necessary skill to properly regroup. Rather than address this, many parents prefer a rule change to hide this lack of skill.

Granted, some kids have the necessary skill. Our present rule encourages the rest to acquire.

Greybeard brings up a great point. A sad point actually.

The delayed off-side rule was changed because the refs couldn't figure out how to call it correctly. And I remember that being the primary basis given for the change. Our referees can't figure out how to call it correctly. (Consistently??? Or correctly?)

So USA and MN still want 2 linesmen that can't call simple rules. 1 Referee to miss 1/2 of the game.

But the rule is forcing players to regroup in neutral zone which is good. This actually speeds up the game. However, coaches still want the puck dumped in and will complain when called for intentional off-side. (And how many linesmen can get that call correct?)

Those Darn Officials! Sounds Like BadgerBob is the perfect mindset these poor kids need to fix this dilemma. August 1, is the start date for officials to register through USA Hockey. Just a Thought.

Bob only refs from the bleachers.

The way to keep the flow of the game going maybe the coaches and players should spend more time in practice on being aware as to what causes and how to prevent being offside. Other than the bang bang play at the blue line with a puck coming out all others could be prevented by better practice plans. So rather than blame the officials or the rules for all the stoppages why not put the blame where it belongs, the officials only react to the play not cause it.

I think we need to leave it alone. I watch these teams who play that dump and chase style of hockey that tag up seems to encourage and pretty much all of the time I end up thinking "they got the dump part down but not the chase". A smart coach works his team and develops that "regrouping skill" knowing that he/she is gonna need it. Tag up makes the game faster but I think at the younger levels we need to develop an attack plan and carry it into the zone rather than just dump it and hope we can get it back.

Stripes2011: Spoken like a typical referee! "You think you can do better? Grab a whistle!"

The point Greybeard made was the off-side rule was changed BECAUSE the referees/linesmen couldn't call it correctly. So rather than teach the referees how to call off-side, they changed the rule. Sound familiar with the recent over-reaction to Jack Jablonski? Referees have not been enforcing the rulebook, so the answer is to change the rulebook?

I have long maintained MN/USA Hockey's love affair with the 2 linesman/1 referee system causes so many problems. And their answer is not to fix the problem of requiring 2 referees for each game, it's to dumb down the rules.

Back to the off-side rule. Greybeard again said it perfectly. Off-Side is the 1st rule of the game learned by beginning players. Coaches have been teaching it since they got past stopping. It is a very easy rule to coach. Some choose knuckle dragging "dump/chase". Others choose to teach puck possesion and skill.

I don't think dump / chase is the issue. Often times dump / forecheck is the best entry option, and kids should learn that as opposed to a toe drag @ the blue line when the defenceman has good position on you.

Where the offsides comes into play is when the opposing teams chip out just past the blue line and the D pounds it back in along the boards and everyone tags up. That is a time for a regrouping play that coaches need to teach specifically in practice. Unfortunately a lot of coaches do not want to risk a neutral zone turnover and want to keep the puck on the wall.

Its not about the rule, its about what is taught, if it is taught correctly the tag up rule is transparent.

black sheep wrote:I don't think dump / chase is the issue. Often times dump / forecheck is the best entry option, and kids should learn that as opposed to a toe drag @ the blue line when the defenceman has good position on you.

Where the offsides comes into play is when the opposing teams chip out just past the blue line and the D pounds it back in along the boards and everyone tags up. That is a time for a regrouping play that coaches need to teach specifically in practice. Unfortunately a lot of coaches do not want to risk a neutral zone turnover and want to keep the puck on the wall.

Its not about the rule, its about what is taught, if it is taught correctly the tag up rule is transparent.

The problem is that lots of the time you get coaches who either can't or won't teach the way to use tag up as another attack tool and it evolves into a dump and chase game. At least this way the coaches are forced to address the whole "attack into their zone" concept at some basic level.

My only comment is that there is no S in offside . One can be only off this side or that side. No player, or players can be offsideS, they can only be offside, one side at a time. Now that semantics is over, tag up offside, all the way!!

It is all interrelated. Dump and chase is a great equalizer for teams that have size but little skill. Skill is harder to teach than tactics, so some (perhaps many) coaches teach the kids to dump the puck and try to win it back in the corners. Because they don't carry or pass the puck kids on these teams don't develop those skills and become more dependant on fighting for the puck in the corners. Racing for the corners becomes common. Injuries rise because racing to the corners is dangerous and because players have never learned to keep their head up because they never pass and they never skate with the puck.

It all comes down to "Why play games?" Are games a crucible for testing skill and determination, or are games something to be won? Once Minnesota Hockey gets that answer correct all the other issues resolve themselves.

imlisteningtothefnsong wrote:My only comment is that there is no S in offside . One can be only off this side or that side. No player, or players can be offsideS, they can only be offside, one side at a time. Now that semantics is over, tag up offside, all the way!!

You are wrong. Sorry.

Automatic offsides doesn't work IMO. I understand the reasoning behind it but delayed offsides would accomplish the same goals and keep the flow of the game going. Also, delayed offsides would allow the defending team to work on regrouping and breaking out of the defensive zone.