HighSchoolHockeyForums.com

Back from a week away. Here are two links to our series on The Legs of the Wolf discussion, part 3 (of 121...lol).

Fred: http://youthhockeyhub.com/legs-of-the-w ... ederick61/

Tony: http://youthhockeyhub.com/legs-of-the-w ... ony-scott/

Enjoy,

TS

District 10 has always had a distinct cutoff in association strength, Coon Rapids had some pretty good teams a few years ago, but the dropoff is hard.

How would the pilot have worked in District 2 where association A teams flip flopped from being at the top at PeeWees and then the bottom at Bantams? Declare as a "unit" to sacrifice one of the teams?

Declaring wrong will sting all the more with this new program.

MrBoDangles wrote:District 10 has always had a distinct cutoff in association strength, Coon Rapids had some pretty good teams a few years ago, but the dropoff is hard.

How would the pilot have worked in District 2 where association A teams flip flopped from being at the top at PeeWees and then the bottom at Bantams? Declare as a "unit" to sacrifice one of the teams?

Declaring wrong will sting all the more with this new program.

No argument here. If they don't get their act together, this could get ugly.

I'm interviewing John Perry, the Pilot Coordinator for MN Hockey on Monday. Hopefully things will be a little more clear - at least to our readers by then.

Stay tuned.

Are the mega associations going to have MULTIPLE A teams since they usually had 2-3 in the top 20 at B-1's?

They said this was partly about getting stronger B-1 teams at the A level, right?

We all know they would piss pound teams if they combined their best from all their ranked B-1 teams and formed one A team, right?

They seem to be winging it with little thought involved..

Maybe 2012-13 is a transition year with a little discomfort and then things run well for years to come.

The Mega associations with 2 B-1 teams have been "piss pounding" B-1 teams for many years. If they form 1 A team from their B-1 teams, yes I would think they will do well at the A level. And will continue to do well at the B-1 level. And will continue to do well at the B-2 level. And will continue to do well at the C level. What is your point BoDangles? Would you like to legislate that all Mega associations have to form enough AA and A teams so your kid's team can finally beat Edina's B-2's?

MrBoDangles wrote:Are the mega associations going to have MULTIPLE A teams since they usually had 2-3 in the top 20 at B-1's?

They said this was partly about getting stronger B-1 teams at the A level, right?

We all know they would piss pound teams if they combined their best from all their ranked B-1 teams and formed one A team, right?

They seem to be winging it with little thought involved..

The Mega associations, Edina for instance, as I understand, is planning to have

1 AA team with skaters 1-15 (their former A team)
1 A team with skaters 16-30 (the top half kids formerly B1)
1 B1 team with skaters 31-45 (their bottom half of former B1)

Edina will have a stronger A team than their previous B1 teams which were balanced. For Wayzata, OMG, Woodbury, Elk River and probably some others the top B1 team will simply become the A team as they've always stacked one B1 team.

Fred has provided a good look at the possible scenarios. I would find it odd how "available ice hours" could affect if a team plays B1 or A? The number of kids/teams doesn't change, just the letter designation, so a non-factor there.

As for an example of Highland Central that had a decent PW A team but struggled at Bantam A. A coop association will probably always have to decide if one stronger group would dictate the level of play for the whole association. But, the Bantam A's didn't make regions and won't make it at AA either. Non-factor again.

Out-State associations will always lack to depth to field teams at all available levels. So another non-factor there.

If Fred's numbers are right, (with 51 AA and 77 A teams) That's 128 teams playing above the B1 level. That's about 28 more teams. And the infill still provides over 100 B1 teams. I think you are making a good case for this proposal Fred!

BlueWhiteFan: I agree the "Edina's" will probably field teams as you describe next year. But, I think it is likely they would shift to 1-AA, 2-A and 2B-1's in future seasons. I imagine most associations will be cautious in year one. But I think as this progresses, most large associations will just shift all teams up a level. And the stability provided by the mega associations should help the smaller associations to find their appropriate levels.

For example, a smaller association that didn't field an A team, but their B1 team was in the top 50-60 B1 would likely shift to A. Then their B2 team would shift to B1. Probably didn't have a C team?

Associations with A teams ranked 50-100 would likely stay at A and not go AA. An association like say Rosemount, that has a group of unusual talent could get caught in having to declare Bantam and PW teams at the same levels. I would hope MN Hockey would allow separate decisions for PW and Bantam.

The problem at Bantams is the loss of top players to high school. So a strong PW team could be a weak Bantam team after losing the top 5-10 players to high school. Therefore, I would hope MN Hockey would allow PW and Bantam levels to be independant.

my guess is the megas will field two B1 teams...if they field 1, then the "piss poundings" will continue.

I hope they don't.

I'm hoping to have a much clearer picture of this by next week.

TZ

Bluewhitefan wrote:

MrBoDangles wrote:Are the mega associations going to have MULTIPLE A teams since they usually had 2-3 in the top 20 at B-1's?

They said this was partly about getting stronger B-1 teams at the A level, right?

We all know they would piss pound teams if they combined their best from all their ranked B-1 teams and formed one A team, right?

They seem to be winging it with little thought involved..

The Mega associations, Edina for instance, as I understand, is planning to have

1 AA team with skaters 1-15 (their former A team)
1 A team with skaters 16-30 (the top half kids formerly B1)
1 B1 team with skaters 31-45 (their bottom half of former B1)

Edina will have a stronger A team than their previous B1 teams which were balanced. For Wayzata, OMG, Woodbury, Elk River and probably some others the top B1 team will simply become the A team as they've always stacked one B1 team.

Last I heard Edina was planning for two B1. Wasn't final though.

One of the principle points that I am trying to make is that since the Districts will have one AA/A league with expanded number of A teams playing 16 game schedules. Those districts will have some AA versus A games, but it will be difficult to create a super league that cuts across districts so that the AA teams can play each other.

The teams basically have 15 weekends in the 2012-2013 season if they play Thanksgiving, Christmas, and New Years weekends. Most bantam AA/A teams will play multiple league games on a weekend. That takes 6-8 weekends away from the 15 available weekends. Almost no league games are scheduled during the three holidays mentioned above. Tournaments consume the refs such that some districts won't schedule games. That brings the available weekends down to 4 to 6 weekends for the 2012-2013 season. Teams usually play four tourneys, leaving 2 to 4 weekends for AA teams to play each other unless they schedule week night games.

In most Twin City associations, the early hours go to the peewees and squirts. The bantams get the 8:30 pm ice to play their games making games between AA teams that have to drive long distances near impossible.

Most AA Maroon and Gold type leagues should accommodate all AA teams. If they don't, the AA teams left out will only play other AA teams in their league or any AA teams they meet in a tourney.

So if the AA teams form a separate league, they will have to play most of their league games on a week night at 8:30. That means the Twin Cities teams will form a AA league and the out state teams will be left in the lurch. So where does this increased competition among top AA teams occur? Not out state.

Fred: How do the teams currently get their 45-60 game seasons scheduled? Why would you think anything would change for the regular season scheduling of games? Yes, District schedules could look different. But why would you think there will be long distance travel for 8:30pm games?

Draw a circle around the Twin Cities 75 miles out and see how many potential AA teams fall outside that line. Lets start in the southwest.

Minneapolis to Mankato the most like AA team is a 180 mile round trip. Move to the southeast and Rochester is the only team it is an identical 180 mile round trip. The east central runs to the Wisconsin border and that is no problem.

The northeast is the Duluth area (Duluth East, Hermantown, and Cloquet) and that is a 300 mile round trip. The north central has four potential teams stretching from Brainerd (260 miles) to Grand Rapids to Bemidji to Roseau (700 miles). East Grand Forks is a likely AA candidate in the northwest with a 640 mile round trip. Moorhead is a 460 mile round trip. Finally St. Cloud in the west central is a 130 mile round trip.

How will any of these associations participate at a AA league level playing games on week nights. They can’t and don’t do that now. It’s mostly weekend hockey and every weekend game or two takes one weekend of the 15 weekends out of the equations.

The Twin City teams are not going to be able to spend much weekend time traveling to Moorhead or Duluth to play one or two games; but they will form their own AA leagues and play each other on week nights.

BadgerBob82 wrote:The Mega associations with 2 B-1 teams have been "piss pounding" B-1 teams for many years. If they form 1 A team from their B-1 teams, yes I would think they will do well at the A level. And will continue to do well at the B-1 level. And will continue to do well at the B-2 level. And will continue to do well at the C level. What is your point BoDangles? Would you like to legislate that all Mega associations have to form enough AA and A teams so your kid's team can finally beat Edina's B-2's?

Are you dumb? The three ranked B-1 teams at Wayzata/Edina could beat quite a few A teams..... Now they'll take the best off the three ranked teams and play the Associations that MNH are telling to move up to "TRY" A..... instead of B-1?



I'm starting to think you're on the MN Hockey board.

BadgerBob82 wrote:The problem at Bantams is the loss of top players to high school. So a strong PW team could be a weak Bantam team after losing the top 5-10 players to high school. Therefore, I would hope MN Hockey would allow PW and Bantam levels to be independant.

And then you say this?

You're not able to understand that this is one problems I've described??

MNH has no idea what they're doing.

You're a joke!

BadgerBob82 wrote:BlueWhiteFan: I agree the "Edina's" will probably field teams as you describe next year. But, I think it is likely they would shift to 1-AA, 2-A and 2B-1's in future seasons. I imagine most associations will be cautious in year one. But I think as this progresses, most large associations will just shift all teams up a level. And the stability provided by the mega associations should help the smaller associations to find their appropriate levels.

For example, a smaller association that didn't field an A team, but their B1 team was in the top 50-60 B1 would likely shift to A. Then their B2 team would shift to B1. Probably didn't have a C team?

Associations with A teams ranked 50-100 would likely stay at A and not go AA. An association like say Rosemount, that has a group of unusual talent could get caught in having to declare Bantam and PW teams at the same levels. I would hope MN Hockey would allow separate decisions for PW and Bantam.

Are YOU trying to say they should have more than one A team so "YOUR son can beat Edina's B-2's"?

Bash me for what I said and then say the same problems I've mentioned all the time? YES, MNH should figure crap out before jumping into something.

You're a very different kind of fella.

Fred: I understand what you're saying. But the regular season is not going to have an AA league. The Maroon and Gold is informal and Duluth East is already in it. Those games are played on week-ends with Duluth being on the road most of the times. So if other "outstate" teams want to play AA caliber teams, they will need to get on the phone and schedule 3-5 games on a metro swing on week-ends. As it's been done for years.

Bo: You carefully read my posts trying to find any inconsistencies from past posts. I agree with you that MN Hockey has passed this thing without much or any thought has to how it will actually look. Do I think the AA-A proposal has the potential to make youth hockey in Minnesota better? YES.

You constantly throw out 3 sentences posts without any substantial thoughts on what you would do if you were charged with making the rules. You can only point at Edina and Wayzata. The point I have repeatedly tried to get through to you, Associations like Edina, Wayzata, Maple Grove, and you can fill in the blanks on the other perennial TOP associations, these associations have historically run the table at all levels. Squirts to Jr Golds. A's-C's. Boys to Girls. Do you think MN Hockey or anything will change the fact that these associations will dominate under any format?

Now after you get out of your head that MN Hockey can water down these top 5-10 assocations, what's the best format for the other 100+ associations? I have said over and over the AA-A proposal has the potential to provide more levels of play so that the top associations can spread out their talent through more levels. This should allow smaller associations to have a competitive, challenging, beneficial season AND when it comes time for playoffs, these teams could make a run to a State Tournament. And during the season, they can play AA level teams if they can get them scheduled.

The one thing I think could be good is that about 30% of the teams are finished with their season by Valentines Day. And 70% are finished after Districts. I think the season should extend into March for more players.

But, I know you will say late Feb and March is really the START of the REAL hockey season.

BadgerBob82 wrote:Fred: I understand what you're saying. But the regular season is not going to have an AA league. The Maroon and Gold is informal and Duluth East is already in it. Those games are played on week-ends with Duluth being on the road most of the times. So if other "outstate" teams want to play AA caliber teams, they will need to get on the phone and schedule 3-5 games on a metro swing on week-ends. As it's been done for years.

What changes is that the District league play will now consist of AA/A teams and potentially one or two AA leagues will be formed across districts in the Twin Cities. If the proponents are correct that more the AA teams play each other, the better the AA teams will get, then the Twin Cities AA teams will get better and the out state teams (with fewer opportunities to compete at the AA level) will get poorer.

The proponents have argued that forming a AA league would eliminate 15-0 games. That won't happen for a number of reasons. Talent varies from year to year and that means within districts, there will be 15-0 games regardless of what structure the associations play under. The 15-0 games will also happen within the district leagues since AA and A teams will still be playing each other.

And 15-0 games will happen in AA regional or state tourneys. There is always a regional tourney that will have poorer teams because these tourneys are state wide and there will always be a lack of top teams in a AA regional; but that is a good thing since the a marginal team playing in a state tourney really helps spark interest in the sport in the sponsoring association's geographical area. Oddly enough, seeding in a AA state tourney will most likely guarantee a 15-0 game when a #1 seed plays a #8 seed.

Minnesota Hockey needs figure out how to grow the sport, AA/A split does nothing to grow the sport.

Fred: I agree with what you are saying. However, I was not aware there would be a designated "AA League" formed for regular season play. My understanding is everyone will be "A" during the season, and only for playoffs to State tournaments will be split AA-A.

I know you don't like the Maroon and Gold concept. But that was formed to provide a cooperative effort to play games against more similar competition. It is not a formal league.

Coaches/managers have long been scheduling games with opponents that are of similar ability to provide good competition throughout the season. Forcing a District schedule that provides 15-0 games is pointless.

And I know you are against what Rochester Red has done after being moved to D9. But when in D8, there was no reason for opting out of District play. It's only because of the disparity of talent that forced Rochester Red and the other D9 teams to agree playing in that District was not in the best interest for anyone involved. Duluth and Moorhead have done the same type of thing over the years. In the Metro, it isn't needed as the Districts provide what all of the teams need. So Metro and out-state associations do have different needs. The AA-A proposal for post season playoffs should help, but I agree more planning was needed before jumping into it.

This is my understanding of the basic proposal:
1. At some point in time, the Districts will be required to send in their final lists of teams and levels of play to Minnesota Hockey. I believe that date is the first week in December this year.

2. Districts require associations to submit their list of teams to the district sometime prior to that December date, but the submitting date varies by district.

3. When it comes to AA play, each association has to decide on playing at the Bantam AA level first, then the Peewee AA level. If an association wants to submit a AA Bantam and A peewee, that is allowed. If an association wants to submit an AA and A Bantam and an A peewee that is allowed. If an association wants to submit an AA and A Bantam and A and B1 peewee that is allowed. If an association wants to submit an AA and A Bantam and AA and A peewee that is allowed. But if an association wants to submit an A Bantam and a AA peewee, that is not allowed.

4. Once the list is submitted by the district to Minnesota Hockey, the teams are usually decided for the season. Since district league play and post season tourneys are based on these lists, the teams are usually locked in at that level for the season unless an association makes a case to change and the district policy has been set to allow associations to form teams, practice, and play a few games before finalizing their level of play. D15 has done this in the past and that is a good thing for the D15 kids.

I have no problem with the Maroon and Gold league or other potential AA leagues other then it is so informal it is difficult to understand who is on top and what conflicts it will create. Some districts have trouble with M & G league because it creates more conflicts with refs and ice times for district games.

Some Twin Cities districts bring it on themselves. Last year these districts started enforcing a policy that restricts pre-season play before their regular season which usually starts the first weekend in November. I disagree with that approach. October is the best month for youth teams because ice hours are more available with high school hockey not started. It turns the whole month of October into practices and games that are not really games but are played as games. The kids and coaches lose out in October and then fight ice hours for the rest of the season.

What does a game that is not a game teach the kids? It teaches them that the rules can be bent and to obfuscate.

Fred,
The aa/a is for District tournament,regional tournament and state tournament only. For league play and invitational tournament play all Bantam and Peewee teams registered with USA/Mn Hockey as A teams are considered just that A. The couple Districts I am aware of will probably run an A Peewee and A Bantam League with an A Division and an AA Division with the teams playing each other once and a 2nd league game with in all team in each division. As far as I have heard there are no plans for an AA league. Fred you have to remember that in the metro area the path to advance to regions begins with District play.
As for the limiting of games before November most districts do not sign off the rosters till later in October or early November at the request of the associations because of fall sports. USA Hockey has requirements and does allow a few games between associations for try outs and a few after tryouts, after that the roster must be signed off by the registrar especially if teams from different Districts are going to play each other. All teams that enter the Centennial preview have to be registered or face penalties. All registration procedures needed are in the Mn Handbook Mn District Registration rules pages 76 and 77.

Thank you greybeard! Now if you can counsel MrBoDangles so he can wrap is skull around this!

To Fred's statement "What does a game that is not a game teach the kids?" I believe you are refering to the "olden days" when a game could be called a scrimmage and no "rules" applied? Mn Hockey has effectively made rules to call anything when two teams are on the ice together with a clock, scoreboard, refs, etc. A GAME. (Which begs the question of Squirt teams having a 45-0 record with a 35 game max)

Fred, you also indicated a problem of the Maroon and Gold league is "it is too informal and nobody knows who's on top?" On top of what? See, the idea of the M&G was not to keep standings and have a M&G playoff system, etc. It was a way to easily schedule non-league games with associations of similar ability levels and similar game format ideology. (i.e. playing 17-20 minute periods on 90-120 minutes of ice with Zamboni after periods. It equates to 2 games with one trip to the rink)

I would suggest mandatory District play is not needed if more Maroon and Gold leagues could be established for more playing levels. Point being, why spend $1,000 for a 3-4 game tournament, when you could play 3-4 M&G games in a week-end for the shared cost of ice and refs? Yes it is more work than showing up at a District scheduling meeting in October and setting the entire game schedule for the season. But, playing 25-30 games of similar competition is much better than the mandatory District schedule most teams are forced to play. Hence, Rochester Red's renegade schedule that you hate so much.