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Just curious...

Wayzata always seems to be near the top of all the youth teams but something seems to happen at the high school level.

What happens? Have they really never won a high school state championship?

I find this the most head scratching anomaly in HS hockey.

Private schools.

BCHL

old goalie85 wrote:Private schools.

Why does that impact Wayzata and not the others in the same situation? Edina has kids from their youth system at BSM, AHA, Breck and Blake, maybe STA too this year. How have privates hit Wayzata harder?

Wayzata gets hit hard because BSM is so close to the district, many kids go there.

If you look at their top bantam line from three years ago(?) it was opperman, besse and lucia combining for over 300 points in just over 50 games.

None of those 3 kids currently play for Wayzata anymore. Kids leaving affects them a lot.

It sounds like there are some great players at Benilde who come from Wayzata, but all the good public schools lose kids to private schools. Eden Prairie, Edina, Jefferson, etc. There is a tradition of winning that gets instilled by certain coaches, embraced by the certain communities, and it really does take both in order to win a state title. For whatever reason, teams like Tonka, Wayzata, White Bear just can't seem to get it done at the State tournament. I'm sure one of those three will get one at some point, but having a top Bantam A team doesn't necessarily equate to winning a high school title.

C-dad wrote:

old goalie85 wrote:Private schools.

Why does that impact Wayzata and not the others in the same situation? Edina has kids from their youth system at BSM, AHA, Breck and Blake, maybe STA too this year. How have privates hit Wayzata harder?

I would venture to say that part of it has to do with Wayzata isn't as steep in hockey tradition as Edina is. Let's face it, Edina has 10 state championships (counting Edina East) and Wayzata has only made it to the state tournament twice. It might be a little easier to stick around when that pride and tradition is there.

The reality is the proximity of BSM, Blake, Breck, etc. is just as close to Edina as it is to Wayzata.

Look at Woodbury. They are in the same boat, youth teams always in the rankings and several near the top. Woodbury's problem is the two high schools, STA, Hill-Murray and Cretin.

old goalie85 wrote:Private schools.

Yep.

I do think private schools play a little bigger role against a Wayzata than Edina and the tradition aspect is a big part of that. When you're little, you go to the HS games. The little Edina kids grow up & see the banners, they see the photos of all the D-I players at Braemar, they grow up & want to be a part of it. I think it's so huge for Eden Prairie to have won a few titles in the past few years; the little guys that are mites, squirts & pee wees see that, dream of it & want to be a part of that.

The key for EP now is to maintain that, to build on that, and maintain a level of consistency. Any little guy that grew up in Edina from about 1965 on has had a period of seeing state tournament teams & titles. There have been some gaps in that (early 90s & no trip to state from '01-'06), but if you've grown up in Edina during that period, you've seen a varsity team that was state tournament caliber. And when you have those down years like Edina had, it takes a few special players to get you back on top. The mid to late 90s Edina teams had guys that saw state tournaments & a state title in '88 when they were little guys and they got them out of the early 90s rutt. The guys in the past 5 years at Edina saw those mid to late 90s guys when they were little guys and they got Edina back after the early-mid '00s rutt.

Wayzata hasn't had that type of success at the varsity level. Growing up, kids haven't seen that and don't become attached to the varsity team. Wayzata was so close to having a state champion last year. There's no reason they can't win a state title and get it done at some point in the future. It's just going to take a special player or group of guys that kickdown the door. They were oh so close last year.

Just my thoughts on it.....

Doc Holliday wrote:I do think private schools play a little bigger role against a Wayzata than Edina and the tradition aspect is a big part of that. When you're little, you go to the HS games. The little Edina kids grow up & see the banners, they see the photos of all the D-I players at Braemar, they grow up & want to be a part of it. I think it's so huge for Eden Prairie to have won a few titles in the past few years; the little guys that are mites, squirts & pee wees see that, dream of it & want to be a part of that.

The key for EP now is to maintain that, to build on that, and maintain a level of consistency. Any little guy that grew up in Edina from about 1965 on has had a period of seeing state tournament teams & titles. There have been some gaps in that (early 90s & no trip to state from '01-'06), but if you've grown up in Edina during that period, you've seen a varsity team that was state tournament caliber. And when you have those down years like Edina had, it takes a few special players to get you back on top. The mid to late 90s Edina teams had guys that saw state tournaments & a state title in '88 when they were little guys and they got them out of the early 90s rutt. The guys in the past 5 years at Edina saw those mid to late 90s guys when they were little guys and they got Edina back after the early-mid '00s rutt.

Wayzata hasn't had that type of success at the varsity level. Growing up, kids haven't seen that and don't become attached to the varsity team. Wayzata was so close to having a state champion last year. There's no reason they can't win a state title and get it done at some point in the future. It's just going to take a special player or group of guys that kickdown the door. They were oh so close last year.

Just my thoughts on it.....

I agree with pretty much everything you state above. Although, I will say every team can dream about how close they were. I don't know how close they were, but to not make state is a bit of a stretch.....

It would be interesting to find a source with rosters that included where players went to middle school and what bantam team they played on.

bardown27 wrote:Wayzata gets hit hard because BSM is so close to the district, many kids go there.

If you look at their top bantam line from three years ago(?) it was opperman, besse and lucia combining for over 300 points in just over 50 games.

None of those 3 kids currently play for Wayzata anymore. Kids leaving affects them a lot.

There are three kids on BSM varsity who started the season on Edina Bantam A and were on it last season. Again, how do the privates affect Wayzata more than other schools?

Doc, totally agree with the tradition angle. Mounds View is another group with better results at the lower levels that gets pounded by private defection. That actually starts to set a precident the other way, leave becuase everyone else does. Very recent big names, hoeffel, alt, mcdonagh, This past years bantam team, top 10-15 team second at VFW state, had 6 of the 15 skaters go private

C-dad, he's not comparing how hard schools have been hit or saying Wayzata gets hit harder, he's just asking what happens to Wayzata. Yea, it does happen to others as well, but that's not exactly pertaining to his question. I'm sure everyone would acknowledge that it affects other schools as well.

Wayzata has a very strong football tradition during the 2000's and this hurts their hockey program in some ways. Some good hockey players have tried to play both hockey and football which in turn hurts their hockey development somewhat. The student body gets more excited about the football games as a whole and that affects the prestige of playing for them as well. Tradition is probably the biggest factor in play here, which really isn't the kids fault it will just take a special group of kids to finally breakthrough and catch up to the 3 state tournament titles by the football team. Eden Prairie is similar but doesn't have the private schools taking away as much. So their hockey program has been able to have a lot of success along with the football program. But EP is still a "football" school. Look at the crowd sizes.

Sometimes its not how many but who. Last year if you add Opperman, Besse and Horton to Wayzata it would have made a huge difference. Teams like Edina and Wayzata can overcome kids that go private better than most others. The size of their youth programs makes it sting a little less.

Oldtimehockeyguy23 wrote:Wayzata has a very strong football tradition during the 2000's and this hurts their hockey program in some ways. Some good hockey players have tried to play both hockey and football which in turn hurts their hockey development somewhat. The student body gets more excited about the football games as a whole and that affects the prestige of playing for them as well. Tradition is probably the biggest factor in play here, which really isn't the kids fault it will just take a special group of kids to finally breakthrough and catch up to the 3 state tournament titles by the football team. Eden Prairie is similar but doesn't have the private schools taking away as much. So their hockey program has been able to have a lot of success along with the football program. But EP is still a "football" school. Look at the crowd sizes.

The best hockey players at a high school often play football. There have been a million high school hockey players who letter in football too. I disagree with the one sport athlete theory.

Oldtimehockeyguy23 wrote:Wayzata has a very strong football tradition during the 2000's and this hurts their hockey program in some ways. Some good hockey players have tried to play both hockey and football which in turn hurts their hockey development somewhat. The student body gets more excited about the football games as a whole and that affects the prestige of playing for them as well. Tradition is probably the biggest factor in play here, which really isn't the kids fault it will just take a special group of kids to finally breakthrough and catch up to the 3 state tournament titles by the football team. Eden Prairie is similar but doesn't have the private schools taking away as much. So their hockey program has been able to have a lot of success along with the football program. But EP is still a "football" school. Look at the crowd sizes.

For one thing no Minnesota school can ever be a "football school" considering MN football is brutal as a whole. Secondly, I agree with DanFromWood. One sport athlete if anything is hurt

Wayzata willl continue to build on their success now that they have Oleary behind the bench. No bantam kid wanted to play for karl davis. I think in the future they will continue to develop a much better high school team in the coming years.

gray5 wrote:Wayzata willl continue to build on their success now that they have Oleary behind the bench. No bantam kid wanted to play for karl davis. I think in the future they will continue to develop a much better high school team in the coming years.

Really, "no" bantam kid wanted to play for Carl Davis? Pretty ignorant statement in my opinion.

StreetStix wrote:C-dad, he's not comparing how hard schools have been hit or saying Wayzata gets hit harder, he's just asking what happens to Wayzata. Yea, it does happen to others as well, but that's not exactly pertaining to his question. I'm sure everyone would acknowledge that it affects other schools as well.

My response was directed to oldgoalie and bardown who both talked up the privates as the reason. My point is, that isn't the only reason as other schools get hit by it. Why would it hit Wayzata harder, unless there was another cause?

I'm not buying the tradition bit either. Why would kids not want to establish their OWN tradition? If there is a good Bantam team why not want to stick together and win a HS State title for the school?

I don't know the answer, just questioning the answers that have been offered.

Maple Grove rarely loses a player to private schools while Wayzata seems to lose 2-3 per year. Why is this?

Kids leave for private schools for a variety of reasons.
(ie-kid doesn't like the coach, coach doesn't like the kid, parents don't like the coach, coach doesn't like the parents, etc.)

I've heard from Wayzata friends that Wayzata has a hard and fast rule that they won't let freshman tryout for varsity. Maybe this is another reason why kids leave?
Also, parents weren't that enamored with the previous regime.

Everyone thought O'Leary would keep the best players at Wayzata but then he loses freshman phenom, Pitlick, to Shattuck. Big, big loss!!

However, I truly believe the main reason kids leave for private schools is
that their parents think there are better opportunities (Athletics and Academics) at a private school.

mgrockswayzata wrote:Maple Grove rarely loses a player to private schools while Wayzata seems to lose 2-3 per year. Why is this?

Kids leave for private schools for a variety of reasons.
(ie-kid doesn't like the coach, coach doesn't like the kid, parents don't like the coach, coach doesn't like the parents, etc.)

I've heard from Wayzata friends that Wayzata has a hard and fast rule that they won't let freshman tryout for varsity. Maybe this is another reason why kids leave?
Also, parents weren't that enamored with the previous regime.

Everyone thought O'Leary would keep the best players at Wayzata but then he loses freshman phenom, Pitlick, to Shattuck. Big, big loss!!

However, I truly believe the main reason kids leave for private schools is
that their parents think there are better opportunities (Athletics and Academics) at a private school.

Gees, maybe their parents went to a private school and want their kids going to a private school. They might not even know the coach? Not everything revolves around hockey.

DanFromWoodbury wrote:

Oldtimehockeyguy23 wrote:Wayzata has a very strong football tradition during the 2000's and this hurts their hockey program in some ways. Some good hockey players have tried to play both hockey and football which in turn hurts their hockey development somewhat. The student body gets more excited about the football games as a whole and that affects the prestige of playing for them as well. Tradition is probably the biggest factor in play here, which really isn't the kids fault it will just take a special group of kids to finally breakthrough and catch up to the 3 state tournament titles by the football team. Eden Prairie is similar but doesn't have the private schools taking away as much. So their hockey program has been able to have a lot of success along with the football program. But EP is still a "football" school. Look at the crowd sizes.

The best hockey players at a high school often play football. There have been a million high school hockey players who letter in football too. I disagree with the one sport athlete theory.

I think spring sports are great for hockey players.. Never said you need to be a one sport athlete. Playing football without a doubt hurts your hockey though because when you should be preparing for the season at captains practice, you are out on the football field. and since Wayzata always makes the state tournament in football, the football/hockey players have to miss the first week of tryouts which puts them at a disadvantage right off the bat. Seem pretty clear to me.