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The Phantom Assist.
Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:21 pm
by noflybys
Was at the SSP vs Eagan game last week and only one goal had less than 2 assist. I know for a fact that some assist were given when they shouldn't be. At the end of the year how many points do you think are Forged? Just very bugged by this.
Re: The Phantom Assist.
Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:26 pm
by Bronc
noflybys wrote:Was at the SSP vs Eagan game last week and only one goal had less than 2 assist. I know for a fact that some assist were given when they shouldn't be. At the end of the year how many points do you think are Forged? Just very bugged by this.
Do ref's get the point wrong sometimes, of course. But I commend these guys as way to often they never get the second assist and more times than not there should be one.
Don't be made someone might get recognized in error every once in a while, because normally it goes the other way.
Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:28 pm
by hockeymadman20
I'm bugged by this also!! I was at a game last week that the ref asked a kid after a goal who assisted. He had directly poked it away and it was totally unassited. Ref says give me 2 names and the kid said it was unassisted. Ref says I don't care give me 2 names. WHY???
Re: The Phantom Assist.
Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:28 pm
by outside_observer
noflybys wrote:Was at the SSP vs Eagan game last week and only one goal had less than 2 assist. I know for a fact that some assist were given when they shouldn't be. At the end of the year how many points do you think are Forged? Just very bugged by this.
The Ref's don't care and it's really not their job. The coaches should change these to make sure points are correct. Inflated or incorrect stats bug me also.
Re: The Phantom Assist.
Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 5:15 pm
by seek & destroy
outside_observer wrote:noflybys wrote:Was at the SSP vs Eagan game last week and only one goal had less than 2 assist. I know for a fact that some assist were given when they shouldn't be. At the end of the year how many points do you think are Forged? Just very bugged by this.
The Ref's don't care and it's really not their job. The coaches should change these to make sure points are correct. Inflated or incorrect stats bug me also.
I agree that the refs don't care and their primary job should be to see if a goal is scored and to watch for penalties...not worry about who got the 2nd assist. More often then not they ask the players to let them know who got the goal/assists and the players are on the honor system.
It is up to the coaches to correct incorrect stats and to do their best to make sure players are not inflating their stats deliberately. People like to say "who cares" but the reality is that stats are one of the initial things that get players recognized and they are published in many, many different areas. When you apply for post season things (elite league, xposure/great 8 tourneys, junior hockey teams, etc.) they all ask how many goals and assists you have. The hockey hub has become the primary source and coaches are given access to be able to make sure it reflects the correct stats. The temptation for a player to try to add a few via the refs is quite high especially because most players feel they can justify it because they got 'screwed' on a call before and are owed one.
The easiest way to correct it is for coaches to stress to players that if they give incorrect scoring on a goal (i.e. give the ref their name when they were not involved) and it is proven wrong...it will be corrected and there is a consequence (lose ice time, skate extra laps at practice etc.). Many of the games are on video (for local TV or for coaches use) and it is easy to see when a player took credit for something they knew they shouldn't. Most coaches can see it happen during the game and can correct it right away. The worst thing is when players take points from other players but even when they are simply taking an extra point on a 2nd assist that no one had, it is not right and should be discouraged.
Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 5:18 pm
by noflybys
Then the coaches are not doing there job.
Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:09 pm
by HShockeywatcher
hockeymadman20 wrote:I'm bugged by this also!! I was at a game last week that the ref asked a kid after a goal who assisted. He had directly poked it away and it was totally unassited. Ref says give me 2 names and the kid said it was unassisted. Ref says I don't care give me 2 names. WHY???
Are you the kid's father? How do you know about this conversation.
If that truly happened, that's ridiculous.
This comes up every year. It happens in football with yards and carries as well, basketball with assists and such. In my experience, I would say that officials (like assistant coaches and volunteer help) on most teams are more concerned about keeping accurate records of their players. With assists though, there needs to be a standard (that everyone knows and follows) for what an assist is.
Re: The Phantom Assist.
Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:44 am
by High Flyer
seek & destroy wrote:outside_observer wrote:noflybys wrote:Was at the SSP vs Eagan game last week and only one goal had less than 2 assist. I know for a fact that some assist were given when they shouldn't be. At the end of the year how many points do you think are Forged? Just very bugged by this.
Inflated or incorrect stats bug me also.
Go check out some of the elite leage games. There is a tremedous amount of "poaching", "pineappling" and "phantom" assists, not to mention missed assists.
Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:13 am
by Girardo
HShockeywatcher wrote:hockeymadman20 wrote:I'm bugged by this also!! I was at a game last week that the ref asked a kid after a goal who assisted. He had directly poked it away and it was totally unassited. Ref says give me 2 names and the kid said it was unassisted. Ref says I don't care give me 2 names. WHY???
Are you the kid's father? How do you know about this conversation.
If that truly happened, that's ridiculous.
This comes up every year. It happens in football with yards and carries as well, basketball with assists and such. In my experience, I would say that officials (like assistant coaches and volunteer help) on most teams are more concerned about keeping accurate records of their players. With assists though, there needs to be a standard (that everyone knows and follows) for what an assist is.
who cares? why question his credibility?
I had a coach last year who wanted 2 assists on every goal. It's just individual statistics, of course kids think they are important. And they are important because there is a whole topic on it. You can't change the system.
Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:18 am
by abc123
Even worse than the Ref giving out phantom assists is the score table putting in extra assists. I have reffed a HS game many times in Hockey Town USA and gave the score table the information only to hear a few seconds later over the P.A system a players name who never was credited for an assist. Sure enough after game I sign scoresheet and extra assists were given. So i call them on it and it is changed but how many times was it missed by other refrees?
Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:30 am
by BogeyMan
The best ever (or worst) in the Fall Elite league was when a player skated over to the scorer's table - after both teams had shaken hands and were in their respective locker rooms - and changed the assists on two of the goals to his number and his linemate!!
The other thing I like about the Elite league is having parents in charge of the scorebook. Now there is a surefire way to ensure you are getting the scoring accurate!!! Ah hahaha.
Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:32 am
by keepmeoutofit
Goalie dads doing stats!!!
Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:06 am
by observer
It's prevalent and not consistent. I take a look at teams who consistently have almost twice as many assists as goals. Lakeville South was particularly guilty last season. DE too. I don't know that it's factual but my impression. Consistently 6 goals yield 12 assists. Other teams 6 goals and 5 assists. That's a lot of assists during the course of the year. Teams that move the puck well often do have two assists on goals and its not uncommon for 2nd assists to be recorded more frequently than for teams that don't move the puck as well. Some refs carefully look for, and report, second assists. Others don't have a clue. Teams manage Hub stats so they get tweaked to correct errors, which are a good thing, and then some add assists from their book not in the official book. Add too many? That is the question. It is tough for the refs as there's a lot going on during some goals so I like that they're corrected but shouldn't be puffed up.
Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:17 pm
by urban iceman
It starts at the bantam level from what I've expirienced. I've seen a parent last summer at the Caribou Classic go Banana's on the tourney director because "Jonny" didn't get his appointed credits during a certain couple of games. Who the heck looks at that crap anyway??? I"m sure that would hold him back from a D1 RIDE that his parents are dreaming of. Get a grip!!
Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:31 pm
by wolfpack33
yeah it's annoying. so are inflated save numbers. at the end of the day, it's high school hockey. until the nfhs or mshsl forces teams to pay for an off-ice official/stat keeper, this is going to be the case.
Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:53 am
by SCC2009
when i played....LONG ago in the mid 90's i witnessed first hand to teamates on the ice telling the ref they got the 2nd assist, and even having the student managers go to the official scorers during intermissions to get them added...were they deserving? ...about half the time...it was 2 kids trying to get D1 scholarships (which they both did) but it was obvious their stats were inflated. they needed the fake stats to get scouts there but real talent gets the scholarship. i also witnessed the leading scorer in the state get a 2nd assist while sitting on the bench....that was quite interesting as well.
Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:58 am
by SCC2009
like any rule change or a change or game format change, career stats are going to be effected, but longer games (17 min. rather than 15 min games, and more game son schedules have added to the possibility of career points being enhanced, but one change i would love to see imnplemented at all levels of hockey is that you cannot get the 2nd assist unless the pass was made inside the blue of the offensive zone making it more relevant to the play development that resulted in a goal.
Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:39 am
by observer
No goalie outlet pass assists?
Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:31 pm
by SCC2009
observer wrote:No goalie outlet pass assists?
i love when a goalie cant keep his fat butt in the crease as much as the next guy but all they really do is get in the way haha. peace to all you goalies out there!
Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:51 pm
by breakout
Taking credit for unearned points happens at almost every level. IMO, it speaks to the quality of the human being and parenting.
Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:00 am
by MNHockeyFan
breakout wrote:Taking credit for unearned points happens at almost every level. IMO, it speaks to the quality of the human being and parenting.
Yep, and you see the fascination and over-emphasis on points - in spades - here on this forum. A good example: there is a dedicated thread on freshmen scoring leaders. The motivation to get noticed is high, which in turn tempts cheating - because it often works.
But I don't see it working so much after high school, at least at the D1 level, because official scoring is subject to further review/scrutiny and even video replay. Not to mention at that level and above, you never see a parent of the player in the box inflating his kid's stats!
Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 9:17 am
by observer
Burnsville on Saturday night, 10 goals, 19 assists.
Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:27 am
by The New One
Points are very important to kids, parents, scouts etc... This is an area that coaches need to pay more attention too in the respect that they have a CONSISTANT way of dealing with the issue as well as having a CONSISTANT application. I have seen teams where certain players get every potential point plus maybe some marginal points awarded. The coach or stat guy will say they want to make sure proper credit is given to the correct player and if you see any mistakes to let them know, while other players on the same team would be chastised and labeled as being selfish if they brought up a point or two that were obviously missed, as well, the correction would not be made. Sometimes you may have a coaches son involved when this happens and if there is any inconsistency it can destroy a team as well as the relationship that player has with his teammates. Even worst I have seen accurate points taken away from kids because the stat guy changed points to give to other players who asked for them.
This is an easy and important area for coaches to show the manner in which their teams are managed because the information is published in so many venues. A great opportunity for programs to show class as well as the integrity and character on which the program is based on.
Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 3:49 pm
by seek & destroy
Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 4:31 pm
by sachishi4
This topic should be renamed the The Aaron Ness Assist.