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I heard 15k

15-20K

One level of this year's Fire had a $2300 price tag, before travel. One drive with hotel to Chicago, a couple of drives and hotels for Wisconsin; final bill will be $3500 or less for the season.

Not sure where the $15-20k figure is coming from, but that is nowhere near the cost for one of the levels.

I thought they had more than 1 out of town tourney

I thought they had more than 1 out of town tourney

Depends on the team. The 97s played in Detroit this past weekend and will also play in Chicago in November. 99s and 00s did not play in Detroit but both will play in Chicago. Looking at the 00s schedule, they have some "series" scheduled for a couple of weekends throughout the winter, but there you're talking about a night or 2 in a hotel and a distance that will be driven. Gas and hotels for a couple of Wisconsin series, another in St. Louis and a tournament in Chicago and the cost will easily be in the $3500-4000 range for the season. Certainly not peanuts, but well below the $15-20k figure you have been told.

The cost to play for the Fire is worth a lifetime of friendships and memories...FIRE LOVE baby!

So essentially this is a year round Tier 2 team that will practice and play in Minnesota with a roster of Minnesota kids. They will not be going to play in the Canadian or East Coast tourneys, in fact will not really travel more than the typical A team. I take it that they will not want to play against Minn Hockey association teams, correct?

royals dad wrote:So essentially this is a year round Tier 2 team that will practice and play in Minnesota with a roster of Minnesota kids. They will not be going to play in the Canadian or East Coast tourneys, in fact will not really travel more than the typical A team. I take it that they will not want to play against Minn Hockey association teams, correct?

I would say that is innacurate. No connection with the Fire at all here. But just through 2 minutes fo websearching I would say a more accurate description would be that it is essentially a Tier 1 team that will practice predominantly in Wisconsin with some in MN, wil play games all over the midwest including MN with a roster that likely is predominantly but not entirely made up of MN kids. They will not likely be playing in East Coast tourneys, not sure about Canadian tourneys, but will be playing in the predominant areas of the midwest that most Tier 1 teams play the overhwelming majority of their games in (ie the Madison Capitols, Chicago Fury, Mission etc.....). Travel is likely more than your typical MN A team in that most metro A teams never leave the metro area except for the occasional tourney "up north", where as this team will be doing alot of driving though likely little flying. I don't know what the cost is, it may or may not be a great thing, I have no idea we don't participate in it but this would more likely a more accurate description from an objective outsiders standpoint than the slanted one given above. JMHO

royals dad wrote:So essentially this is a year round Tier 2 team that will practice and play in Minnesota with a roster of Minnesota kids. They will not be going to play in the Canadian or East Coast tourneys, in fact will not really travel more than the typical A team. I take it that they will not want to play against Minn Hockey association teams, correct?

Last years 97 team was ranked by My Hockey as the 15th tier 1 team in the nation. You may disagree with what they are trying to do. But, you can't pretend they are a tier two A team..

Like many others I would prefer to see tier 1 hockey in Minnesota, but until that time, I hope everyone involved in AAA keeps up the pressure.

Quasar wrote:

royals dad wrote:So essentially this is a year round Tier 2 team that will practice and play in Minnesota with a roster of Minnesota kids. They will not be going to play in the Canadian or East Coast tourneys, in fact will not really travel more than the typical A team. I take it that they will not want to play against Minn Hockey association teams, correct?

Last years 97 team was ranked by My Hockey as the 15th tier 1 team in the nation. You may disagree with what they are trying to do. But, you can't pretend they are a tier two A team..

Like many others I would prefer to see tier 1 hockey in Minnesota, but until that time, I hope everyone involved in AAA keeps up the pressure.

I had not done any research just was going by what I had read on the forum. From what I understand Tier 1 and Tier 2 is not a statement of how good they are it is a classification issued by USA Hockey. From what I read I had thought they have played as a Tier 2 team in the past and had not been granted Tier 1 yet for this season.

From the outside it looks like those involved here are trying to skirt (or just ignore) the rules to get what they want, if it flies for them there will be 5 more of these next year. This is not about 17 kids per birth year this is about whether BM will finally get year round for profit hockey in Minnesota. I have never had the conversation with him directly so everything I know is third hand but I believe that has been a goal from the outset. Having a Machine team stay together (largely) through the winter and having 50% of the ice at MM seems be as close to that vision as they have tried. I cant see USA Hockey or Minn Hockey allowing it, will most likely be the ability for the players to register in the future that is on the line.

Funny that as this is finally happening in Minnesota, USA hockey is pushing for this to go the other way with ADM. Those 2000s will not compete for a national title until they are Bantams.

royals dad wrote:

Quasar wrote:

Last years 97 team was ranked by My Hockey as the 15th tier 1 team in the nation. You may disagree with what they are trying to do. But, you can't pretend they are a tier two A team..

Like many others I would prefer to see tier 1 hockey in Minnesota, but until that time, I hope everyone involved in AAA keeps up the pressure.

I had not done any research just was going by what I had read on the forum. From what I understand Tier 1 and Tier 2 is not a statement of how good they are it is a classification issued by USA Hockey. From what I read I had thought they have played as a Tier 2 team in the past and had not been granted Tier 1 yet for this season.
From the outside it looks like those involved here are trying to skirt (or just ignore) the rules to get what they want, if it flies for them there will be 5 more of these next year. This is not about 17 kids per birth year this is about whether BM will finally get year round for profit hockey in Minnesota. I have never had the conversation with him directly so everything I know is third hand but I believe that has been a goal from the outset. Having a Machine team stay together (largely) through the winter and having 50% of the ice at MM seems be as close to that vision as they have tried. I cant see USA Hockey or Minn Hockey allowing it, will most likely be the ability for the players to register in the future that is on the line.

Funny that as this is finally happening in Minnesota, USA hockey is pushing for this to go the other way with ADM. Those 2000s will not compete for a national title until they are Bantams.

Actually they technically have played as an "unclassified" team by WAHA in the past and still are going forward. They want Tier 1 AAA status but haven't exactly followed the rules to a "T" here in Wisconsin so they remain unclassified. However, because of who they play, who they schedule, the tourney's they play in and the results they have achieved the Tier 1 rankings folks have chosen to rank them in their polls.

royals dad wrote:

Quasar wrote: Last years 97 team was ranked by My Hockey as the 15th tier 1 team in the nation. You may disagree with what they are trying to do. But, you can't pretend they are a tier two A team..

Like many others I would prefer to see tier 1 hockey in Minnesota, but until that time, I hope everyone involved in AAA keeps up the pressure.

I had not done any research just was going by what I had read on the forum. From what I understand Tier 1 and Tier 2 is not a statement of how good they are it is a classification issued by USA Hockey. From what I read I had thought they have played as a Tier 2 team in the past and had not been granted Tier 1 yet for this season.

From the outside it looks like those involved here are trying to skirt (or just ignore) the rules to get what they want, if it flies for them there will be 5 more of these next year. This is not about 17 kids per birth year this is about whether BM will finally get year round for profit hockey in Minnesota. I have never had the conversation with him directly so everything I know is third hand but I believe that has been a goal from the outset. Having a Machine team stay together (largely) through the winter and having 50% of the ice at MM seems be as close to that vision as they have tried. I cant see USA Hockey or Minn Hockey allowing it, will most likely be the ability for the players to register in the future that is on the line.

Funny that as this is finally happening in Minnesota, USA hockey is pushing for this to go the other way with ADM. Those 2000s will not compete for a national title until they are Bantams.

The situation with the Fire is complex and on going. As for tier 1 and 2.If you look at hockey in the US out side of Minnesota, you will see that tier 1 is at a much higher level than tier2. The Fire is unclassified inWisconsin, but they play tier 1 hockey. For comparison, I would say the Machine and blades might make tier 1. also the top 5 or 6 association A teams in Minnesota. every one else is tier 2 or less. The fire players are looking for a higher level of play.. If Minnesota and Wisconsin dropped their anti Fire rules no one would be breaking any rules. Now if you want to really understand whats going on, consider the fact that Minnesota Made, and the Fire are following USA Hockey's ADM rules.
Minnesota association hockey is not...

Finally there are a lot of people that have been around Minnesota youth hockey for a lot of years, that are looking to some of these AAA renegades to push Minnesota toward some kind of winter AAA hockey in Minnesota so we can be the same as the rest of the hockey world....

The ADM model is alive and well on the East coast.. The first fully sanctioned ADM league is up and running in Mass. It's called "The East Coast Hockey Conference" Guess what ??? It's Tier 1 hockey!!

PRICELESS - It was worth every penny paid. I would do it again in a heartbeat.

FIRE LOVE BABY!!

Quasar wrote:The situation with the Fire is complex and on going. As for tier 1 and 2.If you look at hockey in the US out side of Minnesota, you will see that tier 1 is at a much higher level than tier2. The Fire is unclassified inWisconsin, but they play tier 1 hockey. For comparison, I would say the Machine and blades might make tier 1. also the top 5 or 6 association A teams in Minnesota. every one else is tier 2 or less. The fire players are looking for a higher level of play.. If Minnesota and Wisconsin dropped their anti Fire rules no one would be breaking any rules. Now if you want to really understand whats going on, consider the fact that Minnesota Made, and the Fire are following USA Hockey's ADM rules.
Minnesota association hockey is not...

Finally there are a lot of people that have been around Minnesota youth hockey for a lot of years, that are looking to some of these AAA renegades to push Minnesota toward some kind of winter AAA hockey in Minnesota so we can be the same as the rest of the hockey world....

The ADM model is alive and well on the East coast.. The first fully sanctioned ADM league is up and running in Mass. It's called "The East Coast Hockey Conference" Guess what ??? It's Tier 1 hockey!!

Thanks, I did not no there was an "unclassified" classification, I cant say I can understand why they would have that but I stand corrected. I have tried to keep up with ADM and for the life of me can not understand how mite/squirt/peewee year round tier 1 would fit with it. Per USA Hockey it is not a set of rules but rather guidlines:

"For starters, many athletes spend too much time traveling, competing and recovering from competition and not enough time preparing for it. Second, there is too heavy a focus on the result rather than the performance. This attitude leads to long-term failure, as coaches forgo the development of skills to focus on specific game tactics. And third, too many athletes are specializing too early on. An early focus on just one or two sports often leads to injuries, burnout and capping athletic potential....


The American Development Model is a nationwide model for successfully developing American hockey players. It is by no means a mandate sent from USA Hockey, but a tool that will ensure every kid will have the same chance to succeed.

By implementing ADM, associations will see an increase in player retention. Again, ADM is not a set of rules or mandates, but guidelines designed specifically to help kids reach their full potential."

Quasar wrote:

royals dad wrote: I had not done any research just was going by what I had read on the forum. From what I understand Tier 1 and Tier 2 is not a statement of how good they are it is a classification issued by USA Hockey. From what I read I had thought they have played as a Tier 2 team in the past and had not been granted Tier 1 yet for this season.

From the outside it looks like those involved here are trying to skirt (or just ignore) the rules to get what they want, if it flies for them there will be 5 more of these next year. This is not about 17 kids per birth year this is about whether BM will finally get year round for profit hockey in Minnesota. I have never had the conversation with him directly so everything I know is third hand but I believe that has been a goal from the outset. Having a Machine team stay together (largely) through the winter and having 50% of the ice at MM seems be as close to that vision as they have tried. I cant see USA Hockey or Minn Hockey allowing it, will most likely be the ability for the players to register in the future that is on the line.

Funny that as this is finally happening in Minnesota, USA hockey is pushing for this to go the other way with ADM. Those 2000s will not compete for a national title until they are Bantams.

The situation with the Fire is complex and on going. As for tier 1 and 2.If you look at hockey in the US out side of Minnesota, you will see that tier 1 is at a much higher level than tier2. The Fire is unclassified inWisconsin, but they play tier 1 hockey. For comparison, I would say the Machine and blades might make tier 1. also the top 5 or 6 association A teams in Minnesota. every one else is tier 2 or less. The fire players are looking for a higher level of play.. If Minnesota and Wisconsin dropped their anti Fire rules no one would be breaking any rules. Now if you want to really understand whats going on, consider the fact that Minnesota Made, and the Fire are following USA Hockey's ADM rules.
Minnesota association hockey is not...

Finally there are a lot of people that have been around Minnesota youth hockey for a lot of years, that are looking to some of these AAA renegades to push Minnesota toward some kind of winter AAA hockey in Minnesota so we can be the same as the rest of the hockey world....

The ADM model is alive and well on the East coast.. The first fully sanctioned ADM league is up and running in Mass. It's called "The East Coast Hockey Conference" Guess what ??? It's Tier 1 hockey!!

I am not going to debate the ADM with you. I personally like the option of AAA hockey and I like that e have that choice here in Wisconsin. I will disagree with you though on your statement above. WAHA has no "anti-Fire" rules in place. In fact WAHA's rules are set up for all involved not just the Fire

I am not going to debate the ADM with you. I personally like the option of AAA hockey and I like that e have that choice here in Wisconsin. I will disagree with you though on your statement above. WAHA has no "anti-Fire" rules in place. In fact WAHA's rules are set up for all involved not just the Fire

[/quote]

Hello JSR,

No need to debate anything, just my opinion... I like all hockey .. AAA ...Association.... outside pick up games .. etc.. And hey , I'm from Wisconsin too ... Just would like to say ..remove the special grandfathered in unclassified rule.. Only pertains to three teams in the state. No need to protect Wisconsin Tier 1 teams from the Fire. They can do just fine on their own ...

Quasar wrote:

I am not going to debate the ADM with you. I personally like the option of AAA hockey and I like that e have that choice here in Wisconsin. I will disagree with you though on your statement above. WAHA has no "anti-Fire" rules in place. In fact WAHA's rules are set up for all involved not just the Fire

Hello JSR,

No need to debate anything, just my opinion... I like all hockey .. AAA ...Association.... outside pick up games .. etc.. And hey , I'm from Wisconsin too ... Just would like to say ..remove the special grandfathered in unclassified rule.. Only pertains to three teams in the state. No need to protect Wisconsin Tier 1 teams from the Fire. They can do just fine on their own ...

[/quote]

I don't think they are protecting anyone personally. To my knowledge all the Tier 1 teams in the state still schedule and play the Fire and I haven't heard anyone in the Tier 1 teams complain about them at all. In fact I have heard very complimentary things from parents and coaches who have played against them. The fact is there are very specific rules in place to get certain "statuses/classifications" approved and you need to dot every "i" and cross every "t" and play by the rules if you want that status/clssification. Once the Fire get in line with that I am sure they will have no trouble obtaining it. Without getting into a disertation on it, from what I understand certain corners were cut and certain rules ignored. It's not life and death but that is a problem when you are trying to get a team correctly placed within a rigid organization like WAHA so to speak.

I don't think they are protecting anyone personally. To my knowledge all the Tier 1 teams in the state still schedule and play the Fire and I haven't heard anyone in the Tier 1 teams complain about them at all. In fact I have heard very complimentary things from parents and coaches who have played against them. The fact is there are very specific rules in place to get certain "statuses/classifications" approved and you need to dot every "i" and cross every "t" and play by the rules if you want that status/clssification. Once the Fire get in line with that I am sure they will have no trouble obtaining it. Without getting into a disertation on it, from what I understand certain corners were cut and certain rules ignored. It's not life and death but that is a problem when you are trying to get a team correctly placed within a rigid organization like WAHA so to speak.

I stand corrected .. I have no in depth knowledge of the situation, only my impression... I'll defer to your position till I know something ..In the mean time why don't they just get rid of the unclassified teams ??

A little more from the WAHA guide book a part of Tier I:

b. Notification: Existing or new Tier I Organizations will be notified in writing of the acceptance or denial of its application by May 1st by the Tier I Chairperson, or his/her designee.
L. All team owners, directors of hockey operations, directors and managers of a Tier 1 Hockey Association must be legal residents of the State of Wisconsin.


C. TIER II

Tier II is defined as all classifications of districted teams that register players from their district (Mite through Bantams only). These teams also play in the WAHA State Tournaments and are eligible for Tier II USA Hockey Regional and National Tournaments when held.

All districted full-season Midget teams, and any partial-season Midget team (before and after team) are eligible for Tier II USA Hockey Regional and National Tournaments, excluding Team Wisconsin.

All Tier II National Tournament-bound teams must be comprised of only players whose residence is within the State of Wisconsin.

The before and after season shall commence on September 1st of each year and cease upon the beginning of the Wisconsin Interscholastic Athletic Association (WIAA) hockey season. It shall than commence again at the completion of the WIAA hockey season and end on the last day of the National Tournament of each year unless otherwise unanimously approved by the Tier I Committee.

Eligibility to participate on a before and after team (Tier II) is restricted to any youth whose parents or legal guardian’s residence is the Sate of Wisconsin.

Levels of Classification Defined:

Division 1 – A districted association that is considered to be one of the top associations in the state.

Division 2 - A districted association that is classified at a level between Division 1 and Division 3.

Division 3 – A districted association that is classified at a level between Division 2 and Division 4.

Division 4 – A districted association that is determined to be at the fourth level of WAHA classification.

Unclassified - An unclassified program accepts three or more players from districted associations. Associations designated as unclassified are not eligible for WAHA state tournament play.

JSR - The Fire mainly practice at MM and play their home games in Sommerset.

Royals Dad - If you look at the Machine teams they are essentially the Fire teams with the exception of maybe a few kids for the most part. You are light when you say that 50% of their practices are at MM, I bet it is more like 70% or more.

I think it is ridiculous that the Fire have to walk such a fine line. Who cares what the Fire do? If they want to play Tier 1 AAA hockey in the winter and have all MN kids then so be it. If people spent the same amount of time trying to improve their association as they do trying to shut down the Fire we would have great association hockey.

finally someone worth listening too...

HR87--

I agree with the your assessment about the Fire teams. Looking at the 00 schedule and roster that the team has posted online, they have practices that are split 50/50 between Somerset and Mn Made and the roster has 7 kids from this year's '00 Machine team. So while other years or maybe even other levels of Fire teams this year may be predominately Machine kids, the 00's have 7 of 16 on the Fire roster from the '00 Machine; not exactly an overwhelming majority.

97 Fire consists of the following from the 2010 Summer Season:

97 Blades - 5
97 Edge - 1
97 Machine - 3
98 Machine - 3
97 Torspo - 4
97 - Bauer Vapor 1
97 Legacy 1
Other 1

If you dig deeper. you will find that the WI kids are key contributors to the success on this team and not "token" WI kids. You will also find that the MN kids are principally from smaller associations and are just looking for the best opportunity to play at a high level with kids who have the same ambition. They have no practices at MN Made and they are not affiliated with MN Made in any way.

Task Force: I have no reason to doubt your claim that the Fire teams are mainly kids from small associations. You seem to know the 97's. Can you give a breakdown of the home association for the 19 players on the roster?