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How about something new to discuss?

I Just read Jack Blatherwick's article in LPH latest edition.
http://www.letsplayhockey.com/956blatherwick.html

I couldn't agree more with this article, and if this is true, and there are so many good coaches out there, why is it that you see these incredibly long shifts that players take?
I mean if your training for muscle memory at 20sec. intervals shouldn't your shift times match this training?

And if all that's true, what does that say about our quality of hockey training here...I mean realistically the norm is what? at least 1 to 2 min these days? and D players even longer?
Wouldn't our quality of play be better if players skated twice as many shifts at half the length going full tilt ? I think so.

I once watched a youth team from Europe that no shift was longer then 20 sec max. and most were around 15 sec?? seems odd but, the whole time they were just flying and it was very impressive, the tempo was more then our kids could keep up with.
Why do you not see our teams doing this? does anyone know of a HS or Jr. or college team that has this approach?
Even if we got to 30 sec. shifts IMO it would be an improvement.

What do you think shift length should be for Fwds. and D players ?

Back when Jeff Whisler was running Hill Murrays program they used to run alot of short shifts, under a minute each and they seemed to be fly with it. I also have seen a few bantam teams pretty succesfull at it but as a rule here in America, coaches at the younger levels place more emphisis on winning than training players to become interchangeable on anyline at anytime.

In Europe there is a huge emphisis on training at the younger levels so the the players are versitile enough to make the kind of seamless line changes that type of hockey requires. Basicly here in America were more interested in hiding a bad player than training a bad player.

finance_gal wrote: Basicly here in America were more interested in hiding a bad player than training a bad player.

And if Tier I ever takes hold in Minnesota there won't be any bad players! You could just cut a kid and get another from somewhere else.

30-45 seconds should be the max shift for any player. If you're not gassed at the end of that amount of time, you're not working hard enough. If you're out there in the 1-3 min. range, at some point in that shift you're coasting. Just an opinion but I'd like to see a player going full tilt for a shorter amount of time, and in my opinion, players stay fresher for the end of the games. Exceptions may include PP & PK because there's some set up time involved there.

O-townClown wrote:

finance_gal wrote: Basicly here in America were more interested in hiding a bad player than training a bad player.

And if Tier I ever takes hold in Minnesota there won't be any bad players! You could just cut a kid and get another from somewhere else.

This has nothing to do with Tier I, It's just to run the sort of system he was talking about you have to have a group of good players that can blend on whatever line they happen to be out with. Here we only have small groups of kids on most high school teams that can play this type of hockey. To play the High flying Hockey he's suggested you need 3 very skilled lines that can play the uptempo game.
In Europe the spend more time training the kids before there thrown into a game while here in America we have plug and play hockey where coaches plug their players in and let them play,

I understand what your saying, but this concept is not new.
We should have been doing this long ago, and yet even now you don't see that type of practice very often.

I believe that you could get a lot of gain on a player if he were going out and busting hump for 30 sec. get off, get 1 min rest for the next 2 lines to repeat the process and do it again.
But it doesn't happen...I'm not sure we're hiding players, I think in many cases it's the players themselves that don't take themselves off when they should, and coaches not doing much about it.
I mean heck.. it's usually the star players taking the long shifts which goes against what you think would make sense.

30-45 seconds, unless my kid is out there 2-3 minutes is perfect

Can't Never Tried wrote:How about something new to discuss?

I Just read Jack Blatherwick's article in LPH latest edition.
http://www.letsplayhockey.com/956blatherwick.html

I couldn't agree more with this article, and if this is true, and there are so many good coaches out there, why is it that you see these incredibly long shifts that players take?
I mean if your training for muscle memory at 20sec. intervals shouldn't your shift times match this training?

And if all that's true, what does that say about our quality of hockey training here...I mean realistically the norm is what? at least 1 to 2 min these days? and D players even longer?
Wouldn't our quality of play be better if players skated twice as many shifts at half the length going full tilt ? I think so.

I once watched a youth team from Europe that no shift was longer then 20 sec max. and most were around 15 sec?? seems odd but, the whole time they were just flying and it was very impressive, the tempo was more then our kids could keep up with.
Why do you not see our teams doing this? does anyone know of a HS or Jr. or college team that has this approach?
Even if we got to 30 sec. shifts IMO it would be an improvement.

What do you think shift length should be for Fwds. and D players ?

Hey, listen pops... Just because you're having trouble staying on your feet for more than 20 seconds these days, doesn't mean the kids can't skate a 30 second shift.

If I'm reading this right he thinks that endurance training isn't a good idea. Shouldn't a healthy kid be able to run a mile or two?

Someone once asked an NFL coach about his lineman's 40 time. He said, "If he ever has to run 40 yards we're in trouble!" So I get the point of all this. However, it would seem that stamina/endurance is a good thing. Especially when the puck is in your end and you can't get off the ice.

Line matching can come into play also. Not all teams are 3 deep in lines. But, there should be more effort on the coaches part to shorten up the shifts as much as possible. Special teams come into play as well, but with better bench management, it will help coming into the 3rd period. It all starts at the top.

A couple years ago I watched AHA down at the Excel at the holiday tournament. They changed around 45 to 50 seconds at that time the best I have ever seen. All lines bought into the system, it was something to watch. I have not seen them in awhile, so don't know if it still happens.

I like his emphasis on the word SKILL along with speed and that good workouts require both. Too often you see players who have all the speed in the world but have failed to work hard on their skill sets. They think that if they can skate fast, they are able to make up for the skills that they have never wanted to work on.

The ability to stickhandle, shoot, pass, see the ice well and make high speed quick decisions are skills that the best players have and are critical to being a well rounded player. If you can't do them well at a slower speed you will never be able to do them at the faster speed that High School hockey requires.

O-townClown wrote:If I'm reading this right he thinks that endurance training isn't a good idea. Shouldn't a healthy kid be able to run a mile or two?

Someone once asked an NFL coach about his lineman's 40 time. He said, "If he ever has to run 40 yards we're in trouble!" So I get the point of all this. However, it would seem that stamina/endurance is a good thing. Especially when the puck is in your end and you can't get off the ice.

I think he is saying that stamina and endurance is a good thing but that there is a better way to train for that. Doing several short quick dryland sprints is better than jogging 2 miles. The same theory translates to on-ice drills. Drills that simulate a high speed shift of hockey with a corresponding rest period repeated several times will build endurance better than a long drill that encourages players to pace themselves to get through it.

Tony Soprano wrote:Line matching can come into play also. Not all teams are 3 deep in lines. But, there should be more effort on the coaches part to shorten up the shifts as much as possible. Special teams come into play as well, but with better bench management, it will help coming into the 3rd period. It all starts at the top.

A couple years ago I watched AHA down at the Excel at the holiday tournament. They changed around 45 to 50 seconds at that time the best I have ever seen. All lines bought into the system, it was something to watch. I have not seen them in awhile, so don't know if it still happens.

This is what I mean about needing 3 skilled lines to play this type of game. Line matching goes out the window along with alot of set plays because you are constantly changing players If your going to see this kind of game on the high school level it has to be taught early to be effective.

The lesson to teach is
"Fresh legs score goals, tired legs give up goals"
I have my squirts and PW's repeat this so they get it young and then do it automatically in Bantams and HS.

We actually use a drill at the crusaders that many NHL teams use during their rookie and preseason camps.

All you need is a stop watch, a bullhorn or buzzer and a basketball court.

Everyone lines up on the end court line on 1 end of the court. The coach sounds the horn and everyone has 30 seconds to run down and back. If you don't make it back to original start line you are knocked out. At the end of the 30 seconds the horn sounds signalling the 2nd run which is 29 seconds long. You continue this drill by reducing the time by 1 second until no one is able to make it down and back. It works on endurance and sprinting in the same drill. It also allows a little competition and team building as guys will be racing each other but when they are DQ'ed they will cheer on their team mates. Lot of guys find this drill fun.

Who, all the old timers seem to like the short shifts. What happened to all the nostalgia fo Henry Boucha and others who played almost the entire game?

scoreboard33 wrote:Who, all the old timers seem to like the short shifts. What happened to all the nostalgia fo Henry Boucha and others who played almost the entire game?

Times have changed. Back then you didn't have the depth of players you do today. Top players like Boucha could take control the game, and his team was better off with him out there, even if he wasn't going all out, all of the time. The real stars like him would pace themselves at times, then take charge when the opportunties came. Today the pace is much quicker, and top players can't dominate the way they used to unless they are fresh and can go 100%.

I do disagree with some here who say shifts should be ~30 seconds. Players who are in great shape should be able to go a full minute at full speed. When you are changing lines too quickly "because your 30 seconds are up" it makes it hard for your team to maintain constant pressure and establish good flow. Not to say players shouldn't get off the ice sooner whevever there are good opportunities, and to do so before you can no longer go 100%.

MNHockeyFan wrote:

scoreboard33 wrote:Who, all the old timers seem to like the short shifts. What happened to all the nostalgia fo Henry Boucha and others who played almost the entire game?

Times have changed. Back then you didn't have the depth of players you do today. Top players like Boucha could take control the game, and his team was better off with him out there, even if he wasn't going all out, all of the time. The real stars like him would pace themselves at times, then take charge when the opportunties came. Today the pace is much quicker, and top players can't dominate the way they used to unless they are fresh and can go 100%.

I do disagree with some here who say shifts should be ~30 seconds. Players who are in great shape should be able to go a full minute at full speed. When you are changing lines too quickly "because your 30 seconds are up" it makes it hard for your team to maintain constant pressure and establish good flow. Not to say players shouldn't get off the ice sooner whevever there are good opportunities, and to do so before you can no longer go 100%.

Most experts (I'm not one) will tell you that there is a point of no return (recovery) of the muscle when pushed past this point, I don't know if it's a minute or 2 minutes but I believe it's a factor of what the muscle is trained to do.
So if you train to do 30-45 sec at 100%, and then in games continually push to 1-1/2 to 2 minutes you will a build up lactic acid in the muscle that you will need time to recover from.... and I don't mean 2 min rest between shifts, performance then decreases significantly..maybe we have a few experts on here that could expand on it.

Also I think you could train for doing a 1-2 minute shift at 100% but I doubt it could be kept up for the entirety of the game at 100%, which I believe is the reason it's not done, there would be more benefit in training for a longer shift and then shortening it in games.

lastly I think it's foolish to think that you'd be saying "oh my 30 sec is up" your body is the true clock it knows when it gets to the rest point by training it to do that length in drills over and over.

I think that the main thing is that kids don't pick the right time to change, and end up waiting until it's too late and get stuck in their defensive zone. They don't necessarily want to take a 2 minute shift, but they may be playing well, feeling good, then wait too long. Change while you're still fresh, get the puck deep, or rotate through if you're putting a lot of pressure on in the offensive zone. It's also true what CNT was getting at that one shift with too much exerted energy can zap a player's legs for the rest of the game, rendering him essentially useless. You'll especially see this with defensemen who get themselves out of position in the defensive zone.

Elvis wrote:I think that the main thing is that kids don't pick the right time to change

Ain't that the truth! Funniest hockey moment for my middle one, who gave up the sport after one bantam year, took place during a 2nd year squirt showcase season. He had a great coach who preached and taught short shifts to the point of utter obedience. Son picked up a loose puck at the red line, beat the lone defenseman, just crossed the blue line on a breakaway. The coach shouted to the rest of his team to shift. what does my son do?...........leaves the puck, turns and heads back to the bench. I still laugh about it today

He is not that obedient at 18 anymore.

tomASS wrote:...what does my son do?...........leaves the puck, turns and heads back to the bench. I still laugh about it today

He is not that obedient at 18 anymore.

Funny story - thanks for sharing.

OGEE OGELTHORPE wrote:30-45 seconds, unless my kid is out there 2-3 minutes is perfect

I couldnt agree more with you Ogee, 5-6 minutes is better yet.