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Posted: **Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:33 pm**

elliott70 wrote:
frederick61 wrote:
greybeard58 wrote:Fred,
If you chose not to believe me on the associations mentioned go to the D10 web site and contact the District Director or his assisant, I believe they will tell you the same.
Mora in D2 what a nice drive to St Mary's point.
"greybeard58", all I did was count the number of associations listed on the offical Minnesota hockey website under D10. If my count is correct, there are 22 associations listed. If the District Director has a different count, then he should correct that list prior to the start of next season.
Fred
While the handbook may list the associations; not all associations are active nor are all associations participating at all levels.
Thsoe associations that are not putting teams on the ice are still associations forno other reason than to assure their kids are waived into another association. If at some point in the future there is a spike in numbers they may want to run a mite or squirt program seprate form the other association for a variety of reasons.
What graybeard is telling you is that those listed do not necessarily participate across the board and therefore the 'number of associations' should be adjusted for comparison to other districts numbers. (As should other districts numbers.

That is why I proposed definng associatins and classifying them by the type of assn they are. Again for a variety of reasons.

That good information. The questions I have have now are: 1)is it the responsibility of the District to maintain a current list of associations at the start of each year and their boundaries or is it the responsibility of Minnesota Hockey and 2) I have a young grandson who lives in Belle Plaine, who would he ask if he wanted to participate? In other words, what does one do about areas in Mn that are not listed?

Posted: **Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:58 pm**

frederick61 wrote:
elliott70 wrote:
frederick61 wrote: "greybeard58", all I did was count the number of associations listed on the offical Minnesota hockey website under D10. If my count is correct, there are 22 associations listed. If the District Director has a different count, then he should correct that list prior to the start of next season.
Fred
While the handbook may list the associations; not all associations are active nor are all associations participating at all levels.
Thsoe associations that are not putting teams on the ice are still associations forno other reason than to assure their kids are waived into another association. If at some point in the future there is a spike in numbers they may want to run a mite or squirt program seprate form the other association for a variety of reasons.
What graybeard is telling you is that those listed do not necessarily participate across the board and therefore the 'number of associations' should be adjusted for comparison to other districts numbers. (As should other districts numbers.

That is why I proposed definng associatins and classifying them by the type of assn they are. Again for a variety of reasons.
That good information. The questions I have have now are: 1)is it the responsibility of the District to maintain a current list of associations at the start of each year and their boundaries or is it the responsibility of Minnesota Hockey and 2) I have a young grandson who lives in Belle Plaine, who would he ask if he wanted to participate? In other words, what does one do about areas in Mn that are not listed?

The district director would be the one to contact for questions on which association would be the proper one with which to register.

The DD is responsible for changes to the handbook via info to the Handbook committee. Problem is - handbopok changes need to be submitted by a July date. Sometimes you do not know what assn are doing until September.

Example: D16 has Blackduck as an associaiton. Some years they just skate mites and send squirts etc to Bemidji. Some years they may have squirts and once they had a peewee team. #'s and parent committment change dramatically in the small (or non-traditional) hockey towns.

Posted: **Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:04 pm**

Neutron 14 wrote:WHAT? No more St. Cloud in District 10?!?!?! Whose going to tell Neutron 15 that Hooters is no longer on the schedule??? Not Me!

WELL???

Posted: **Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:26 pm**

Neutron 14 wrote:
Neutron 14 wrote:WHAT? No more St. Cloud in District 10?!?!?! Whose going to tell Neutron 15 that Hooters is no longer on the schedule??? Not Me!
WELL???

Still one more year before D10 is disbanded and combined with others.

Going to Hooters is like

Deja Vu

for me.

I have seen it before.

Posted: **Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:27 pm**

Neutron 14 wrote:
Neutron 14 wrote:WHAT? No more St. Cloud in District 10?!?!?! Whose going to tell Neutron 15 that Hooters is no longer on the schedule??? Not Me!
WELL???

I thought Neut 15 was more like his father,

more of a Chippendale man.

Posted: **Fri Apr 18, 2008 6:13 pm**

Elliott70 “The district director would be the one to contact for questions on which association would be the proper one with which to register.”

Elliott70, I understand the flexibility given to associations and districts to structure programs from year to year. That is not where I was headed with the last questions.
If you look at associations and their districts and then try to map their boundaries, there is nothing to group the district by area. The result is an egg splatter of districts and their associations. Are there Minnesota Hockey rules that manage district boundaries documented somewhere? Is there a need to have some notation of district boundaries and rules? If an association wants to move from one district to another and the district the association is moving into approves, does Minnesota Hockey have a say in the move?

Posted: **Fri Apr 18, 2008 9:16 pm**

Eliot you best read the Mn Hockey handbook again, as i have stated, under your affliated agreement it states under jurisdiction, that the affliate is within the geographcal area of "School District or natural hockey community". to go outside of what Mn Hockey has printed would be in violation of your bylaws, thus making your enitre book worthless, just follow the rules , its that simple, These people are following it to the letter the way it sounds and for anybody to sit back and say we got to what is best for them without following the book that you guys right and re reright every year, well then its time for them to move on down the road . How could you enforce anything else written when you dont give the right for this seperate group to operate

Posted: **Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:12 pm**

whockeyguy wrote:Outsider looking in: How can Mn Hockey prevent this- they cant , under the their by-laws which are community based and giuded by school districts as boundries , there is NO WAY to prevent this, THEY have the right to do this , as long as they get everything else required to be an affiliate for MN Hockey,
As for you people that think different, look at some of the most recent changes similar to this.
Elk River/Rogers
Anoka/ Andover
Anoka/ Champlin Park
Lakeville South, North
Osseo/ Maple Grove
Just a few to name, all were combined at one time and when the schools came along the split was made,,, only difference is that St Clouds were already in place,,, If they deny this well then throw out Mn Hockey handbook because it wont mean a thing, let the recuitment start for the all star teams{AAA} Good luck to you in your venture, i hope they have best interest of the kids in their school district, if not thye will have to live with their decessions which is their RIGHT. It their kids,
TO Mn Hockey, every body in the state is watching this one

And to the One of the last comments made here on how they will be able to compete with the Roseau and Moorheads, well they cant now and it might be that over half the kids that play A Bantams go to other schools afterwards right now, so why not devlelop your own kids that are staying at the school or dont have to go to the north side of town,,

This is interesting. This is also something I don't know much about. Under a theoretical St Cloud Tech youth program (which would alienate about half the kids on the south side who aren't Tech bound), what would the prospects be of starting a AAA program for Cathedral kids and those who would have differences with the Tech Board (which could be quite a few in terms of the current Board)? Are there other areas/programs in the state considering AAA? This concept has many merits and may be worth looking at. I'd be curious to hear any thoughts on this.

Posted: **Sun Apr 20, 2008 1:27 pm**

frederick61 wrote: If you look at associations and their districts and then try to map their boundaries, there is nothing to group the district by area. The result is an egg splatter of districts and their associations. Are there Minnesota Hockey rules that manage district boundaries documented somewhere?

No, the Discernment Committee has that responsibility and need to finish sooner rather than later, but we are not moving fast.
My second suggestion was to define district in terms of association teams at A and B level necessary to form a district (low to high range) and then by geographics (attempt to limit travel time) and then by tradition/rivalry.

Is there a need to have some notation of district boundaries and rules?

Yes, it is needed and will help with team movement, redistricting in the future.

If an association wants to move from one district to another and the district the association is moving into approves, does Minnesota Hockey have a say in the move?

Minnesota Hockey board must approve ALL moves between district 'lines'.

Posted: **Sun Apr 20, 2008 1:31 pm**

whockeyguy wrote:Eliot you best read the Mn Hockey handbook again, as i have stated, under your affliated agreement it states under jurisdiction, that the affliate is within the geographcal area of "School District or natural hockey community". to go outside of what Mn Hockey has printed would be in violation of your bylaws, thus making your enitre book worthless, just follow the rules , its that simple, These people are following it to the letter the way it sounds and for anybody to sit back and say we got to what is best for them without following the book that you guys right and re reright every year, well then its time for them to move on down the road . How could you enforce anything else written when you dont give the right for this seperate group to operate

See my private message to you.

You are putting emphasis in the wrong place. The document you are reading is the last in protocol, with more of an 'example' emphasis then actual 'law'. The "Rules" part of the handbook under the residency section is the guiding definition.

Posted: **Sun Apr 20, 2008 8:47 pm**

ok, ive read it and more convinced than ever of my previous statement: residency rule states ; Youth Hockey players must play within the natural hockey comminity as defined by Mn Hockey. there are no other statements in this that pertain to any other things of this, . so then one must go to the affliate agrement for definition, where in the Mn hockey handbook is states the power to the affliate to the geographical area of {school distrcit or natural hockey community}. since the residency policy does not define it, one can only assume by other staments in the book is how Mn Hockey looks at this. Heck im not even a lawyer but if i can figure this out what would an attorney do .

Posted: **Sun Apr 20, 2008 11:05 pm**

whockeyguy,

You're not a lawyer??? With your writing skills, I was sure that you were!

Posted: **Sun Apr 20, 2008 11:13 pm**

[quote="whockeyguy"]ok, ive read it and more convinced than ever of my previous statement: residency rule states ; Youth Hockey players must play within the natural hockey comminity as defined by Mn Hockey. there are no other statements in this that pertain to any other things of this, . so then one must go to the affliate agrement for definition, where in the Mn hockey handbook is states the power to the affliate to the geographical area of {school distrcit or natural hockey community}. since the residency policy does not define it, one can only assume by other staments in the book is how Mn Hockey looks at this. Heck im not even a lawyer but if i can figure this out what would an attorney do .[/quote]

An attorney would charge you a whock of money.

Posted: **Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:04 pm**

whockeyguy wrote:ok, ive read it and more convinced than ever of my previous statement: residency rule states ; Youth Hockey players must play within the natural hockey comminity as defined by Mn Hockey. there are no other statements in this that pertain to any other things of this, . so then one must go to the affliate agrement for definition, where in the Mn hockey handbook is states the power to the affliate to the geographical area of {school distrcit or natural hockey community}. since the residency policy does not define it, one can only assume by other staments in the book is how Mn Hockey looks at this. Heck im not even a lawyer but if i can figure this out what would an attorney do .

Precedence would override any example notation.
Natural hockey community is the underlying essence to MNHockey and is used more often that any other phrase.
The terms you are referring to are not used as definiton BUT as an example. Little evidentiary support woulf be given to that wee bit of information.

I am not an attorney, but I have stayed in a Holidy Inn Express.

Posted: **Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:16 pm**

that WEE bit of info gives credence to what this group is doing. nowwhere does mn hockey DEFINE "natural hockey community" but this WEE bit of info that ties the affliate to MN Hockey, is the most support thing in the book. And when push comes to shove that WEE bit SHOULD hold more water than what someone thinks about how it should be wrote

Posted: **Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:59 pm**

whockeyguy wrote:that WEE bit of info gives credence to what this group is doing. nowwhere does mn hockey DEFINE "natural hockey community" but this WEE bit of info that ties the affliate to MN Hockey, is the most support thing in the book. And when push comes to shove that WEE bit SHOULD hold more water than what someone thinks about how it should be wrote

No, our minutes and previous actions hold more weight.
Like I said, I ma not an attorney, but I work in law on a regular basis.
And the Youth Rules say the 'natural hockey community' as defined by Minensota Hockey. We have chosen to be liberal in how we define it with the underlying rule being what is best for the players. This is documented time and again.

Believe me, I have been doing this hockey stuff since 1994. And I have been in court on hundreds (probaly 1000's) of occassions since 1974 dealing with almost everything including partnership dissolutions, business valuations, divorces, to murder.

I confer with attorneys on a weekly basis and have read more law and legal cases than I care to remember.

What you are reading is not a threat to what we as the MN Board do.
As stated, it will be a factor but is not anywhere near a mandate.

Posted: **Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:37 pm**

Great discussion on this board.

I do have to agree with the DD, Mr. Elliott, on his last post. It is clear that this whole area is very ambiguous as to the verbiage. I think that is what the person above is saying, lack of consitency could prove to be a big problem, whether it results in legal action or just a big outcry from continually evaluating each case without some clear definitions.

I believe it is good that MN Hockey is trying to clear up some of its protocol, definitions etc. but I have been told by a number of DD that it is moving too slow. I think that's why the upcoming debate will be constructive.

Posted: **Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:07 pm**

It's hard to believe that MN Hockey would choose to break up an entire successful youth hockey association at the bemoanings of a single renegade group as is being seen in St. Cloud, especially when the current youth hockey association executive board is strongly opposed to this effort. This would be a terrible precedent and would send a terrible message to any other special interest group out there to go after their local association with vigor. It would be open season on any youth hockey group.

By the way Wicked, given your destructive actions and threats against SCYHA, your moniker "wicked" is very appropriate. Your time and efforts would be much more appreciated doing something constructive for the community.

Posted: **Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:18 pm**

Thanks, Mr. Goose for the free advice. Use any adjectives you want to describe our position. It's your right.

As an aside, wicked shot is a self deprecating moniker for my not-particularly-strong shot that is often displayed when the old guys play hockey. But you're free to interpret it in any way you like.

Posted: **Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:37 pm**

Wicked... your web site is a little out of it today... I see some changes have taken place and that may have created some issues. I wanted to find the information on your meetings coming up, and nothing works on the site...

Posted: **Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:58 pm**

Elliott70,
I appreciate the answers you have given and the patience you have shown. But I have more. You stated that some notation of district boundaries and rules are needed by Minnesota Hockey and that Minnesota Hockey must approve all moves between district lines. At this moment in time, does Minnesota Hockey operate on a yearly agenda that allows these decisions to be made in a timely fashion-much like a company has to set an agenda to establish a yearly operating budget prior to the start of the fiscal year? If so what are the key dates?

Since these decisions on movement have to be made to fill current needs, are decisions being decided by an informal set of rules (until a set can be finalized) or is prior precedent (based on previous decisions) used to decide movement among associations?

Posted: **Mon Apr 21, 2008 5:11 pm**

Blue and Gold:

I'm just going on there now -- haven't been on today. It was working yesterday. If it's out of sorts, I will contact the administrator ASAP. Thanks for the heads up.

Posted: **Mon Apr 21, 2008 5:15 pm**

frederick61 wrote:Elliott70,
I appreciate the answers you have given and the patience you have shown. But I have more. You stated that some notation of district boundaries and rules are needed by Minnesota Hockey and that Minnesota Hockey must approve all moves between district lines. At this moment in time, does Minnesota Hockey operate on a yearly agenda that allows these decisions to be made in a timely fashion-much like a company has to set an agenda to establish a yearly operating budget prior to the start of the fiscal year?

No, it is haphazard. Most often it is a discussion between associatin, district director # and DD #2 (and the cognizant boards if they exist). They come to a resolution and present it to the board for movement.
The genrel rule is there is not a lot of movement (since I ahve been involved less than 1 a year - perhaps 1 every 3 years).
The significant date would be our summer meeting but our fall meeting could work.

If so what are the key dates?

Since these decisions on movement have to be made to fill current needs, are decisions being decided by an informal set of rules (until a set can be finalized) or is prior precedent (based on previous decisions) used to decide movement among associations?

Movements in the past of an association from district to district has been for the most part a travel issue. These have been approved when all sides are in agreement. Total restructure of districts has not been doen since prior to 1994 - although attempts have been made. Our current goal is to establish basic rules for realignment and do it every two to three years.

Posted: **Mon Apr 21, 2008 5:50 pm**

Hey everyone:

Those who have gone to the SCTYHA website have found it has changed over the weekend. The adminstrator put a navigation tool on it so that you can either hit the far right button -- the double arrow, which is autoplay and that will take you from question to answer -- fairly rapidly, I migh add. You can hit it again to pause at one Q and A or another or use when of the far arrows to manually scroll through. The Q and A on the meeting is the second Q and A. Board members names and numbers and links are at the bottom of the page. Thanks.

Posted: **Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:42 pm**

OK, it was working, just some end-user issues. (I'm a dummy for those who can't read between the lines...)

Did I read the Q&A correctly in that D10 recommends that there NOT be a split at this time? You are going to MN Hockey though, which is soon? Just looking for clarification...

Keep us posted... Still want to talk, but may make the meeting on Thursday.

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