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I don't think you can really come up with a "best" rivalry in the state. Rivalry by its very nature has a personal touch to it. So, while someone can recognize that Warroad and Roseau have a great rivarly, if they don't have any personal interest in it, it can't compare to a rivalry that they have an interest in.

I'm sure there are people in 3A that think Luverne - Marshall is the best rivalry, and it probably is to them, just not to many outside of their geographic location.

Traxler wrote:I don't think you can really come up with a "best" rivalry in the state. Rivalry by its very nature has a personal touch to it. So, while someone can recognize that Warroad and Roseau have a great rivarly, if they don't have any personal interest in it, it can't compare to a rivalry that they have an interest in.

I'm sure there are people in 3A that think Luverne - Marshall is the best rivalry, and it probably is to them, just not to many outside of their geographic location.

Could not disagree more. Not many people outside of SW Minnesota are going to travel to Luverne or Marshall to watch these two teams play. No one is going to write a story in a major metro newspaper declaring it the best rivalry in the state. In 1991, when I saw Hill Murray come back from a 3-0 deficit to beat White Bear Lake 4-3 in the Section 3 final before a packed house at Met Center, I was reminded again what a 'real' rivalry was.

mnmouth wrote:

Traxler wrote:I don't think you can really come up with a "best" rivalry in the state. Rivalry by its very nature has a personal touch to it. So, while someone can recognize that Warroad and Roseau have a great rivarly, if they don't have any personal interest in it, it can't compare to a rivalry that they have an interest in.

I'm sure there are people in 3A that think Luverne - Marshall is the best rivalry, and it probably is to them, just not to many outside of their geographic location.

Could not disagree more. Not many people outside of SW Minnesota are going to travel to Luverne or Marshall to watch these two teams play. No one is going to write a story in a major metro newspaper declaring it the best rivalry in the state. In 1991, when I saw Hill Murray come back from a 3-0 deficit to beat White Bear Lake 4-3 in the Section 3 final before a packed house at Met Center, I was reminded again what a 'real' rivalry was.

Tough to get all misty eyed for the 18 Hill parents, 20 Hill students that saw that huge comeback win back in 1991. If time allowed I would love to catch a White Bear Lake victory over the East Side all stars any day any year! That is a game worth driving for. Most rivalry games do not disappoint.
Luverne - Marshall is on the bucket list Section 7 has a few too I hear.

mnmouth wrote:

Traxler wrote:I don't think you can really come up with a "best" rivalry in the state. Rivalry by its very nature has a personal touch to it. So, while someone can recognize that Warroad and Roseau have a great rivarly, if they don't have any personal interest in it, it can't compare to a rivalry that they have an interest in.

I'm sure there are people in 3A that think Luverne - Marshall is the best rivalry, and it probably is to them, just not to many outside of their geographic location.

Could not disagree more. Not many people outside of SW Minnesota are going to travel to Luverne or Marshall to watch these two teams play. No one is going to write a story in a major metro newspaper declaring it the best rivalry in the state. In 1991, when I saw Hill Murray come back from a 3-0 deficit to beat White Bear Lake 4-3 in the Section 3 final before a packed house at Met Center, I was reminded again what a 'real' rivalry was.

You're making my point for me. I don't see the disagreement.

Traxler wrote:You're making my point for me. I don't see the disagreement.

Please explain . . .

mnmouth wrote:

Traxler wrote:You're making my point for me. I don't see the disagreement.

Please explain . . .

Based on the 3A thread the people in southwest MN love their teams dearly and are more excited about those rivalries than any other games in the state. They don't care about White Bear Lake and Hill-Murray. Similarly, you don't care about Luverne's games nor do many people outside of that geographic area.

Ties to a school or region heavily impact how much someone cares about a particular rivalry.

I'm not saying that Warroad-Roseau or White Bear Lake-Hill-Murray aren't good rivalries, but someone like Slammer is going to say the East - Cloquet rivalry is the best because of how much he cares about East. He's not wrong, it's just the best for him. A friend of mine is from Warroad and his favorite rivalry is the Warroad-Roseau rivalry. I bet he doesn't even know that Luverne has an undefeated team this year. I'm also sure he couldn't name who their rival is.

So, when you say not many people outside of SW Minnesota are going to travel to Luverne or Marshall to watch those teams play, that's the point I was making too. Similarly, not many people from Luverne are going to travel to Warroad or Roseau for that rivalry, or up to Duluth or Cloquet for that one.

Best is subjective and largely dependent on personal interest.

All that being said the arguments are fun to watch about which is best. And, I'm sorry for going a bit off point on the thread. My favorite 7AA rivalry is East-Cloquet, but until this year it wasn't much of a rivalry as of late.

Traxler wrote:

mnmouth wrote:

Traxler wrote:You're making my point for me. I don't see the disagreement.

Please explain . . .

Based on the 3A thread the people in southwest MN love their teams dearly and are more excited about those rivalries than any other games in the state. They don't care about White Bear Lake and Hill-Murray. Similarly, you don't care about Luverne's games nor do many people outside of that geographic area.

Ties to a school or region heavily impact how much someone cares about a particular rivalry.

I'm not saying that Warroad-Roseau or White Bear Lake-Hill-Murray aren't good rivalries, but someone like Slammer is going to say the East - Cloquet rivalry is the best because of how much he cares about East. He's not wrong, it's just the best for him. A friend of mine is from Warroad and his favorite rivalry is the Warroad-Roseau rivalry. I bet he doesn't even know that Luverne has an undefeated team this year. I'm also sure he couldn't name who their rival is.

So, when you say not many people outside of SW Minnesota are going to travel to Luverne or Marshall to watch those teams play, that's the point I was making too. Similarly, not many people from Luverne are going to travel to Warroad or Roseau for that rivalry, or up to Duluth or Cloquet for that one.

Best is subjective and largely dependent on personal interest.

All that being said the arguments are fun to watch about which is best. And, I'm sorry for going a bit off point on the thread. My favorite 7AA rivalry is East-Cloquet, but until this year it wasn't much of a rivalry as of late.

Grand Rapids and Greenway used to have media and fans from all over the state and sometimes outside the state for their games as recently as the early 2000's. I'm not a fan of any 4AA teams, but I'd love to see a Hill/WBL final, and I have no interest in any rivalries in Section 1AA or 1A. So I disagree that it's only about fans from the specific area. Some rivalries are so big they get interest from hockey fans across the state, not just their area.

TheHockeyDJ wrote:Grand Rapids and Greenway used to have media and fans from all over the state and sometimes outside the state for their games as recently as the early 2000's. I'm not a fan of any 4AA teams, but I'd love to see a Hill/WBL final, and I have no interest in any rivalries in Section 1AA or 1A. So I disagree that it's only about fans from the specific area. Some rivalries are so big they get interest from hockey fans across the state, not just their area.

Let's get back to the moment soon to be on hand. Sorry DJ but of ER's six losses you could make a case that their worst loss was to Rapids. MG, Andover, Blaine, Edina, EP then Rapids.

curtiscurve wrote:

Slammer wrote:

alcloseshaver wrote:This result muddies East's resume, recently losing to CEC, who loses to STMA??? Maybe LN is overrated?

And also, don't forget that it was a rivalry game. Most coaches in 7AA would understand no matter how bad Cloquet is, the score will almost always be close with DE- Cloquet because of the effect on the players.

And if you haven't been to a east cloquet game, you wouldn't understand. When you're in that atmosphere, every aspect of the game changes.

I'm not making any excuses, but that's just something that's well understood by coaches.

I'm confused. You excuse the Cloquet loss because it is a rivalry game? So, can't that argument be made for the GR vs Virgina situation? I know this isn't exactly a rivalry, but we all know how much the small Range schools put into the games they play against Rapids. Plus, I'll say it again, Virginia is a better team than Cloquet. Let's also revisit the OT thriller. Oh no, not the Lakeville North game, the Cambridge OT thriller. Elk River does not have near the blemishes on their record as the other 3 teams in this conversation and should get the number 1 seed by default I guess. Unfortunately I guess that means East at 2 and Rapids likely at 3. I guess with Cloquet losing tonight could still give us probably the most entertaining 2 vs 7 quarter final of the year.

So we are punishing teams for bad wins? You must have forgotten then that Rapids beat Bemidji, Forest Lake, Mahtomedi, and Cloquet (in OT) all by one goal. Using your logic, since these teams aren't very good, that all those wins are bad wins for Rapids. I don't necessarily punish a team for a one goal win. You never know what you run into in other teams, a hot goalie, bad environment, sick players for that particular game. Bottom line is that the team gets the win, overtime or not.

alcloseshaver wrote:Let's get back to the moment soon to be on hand. Sorry DJ but of ER's six losses you could make a case that their worst loss was to Rapids. MG, Andover, Blaine, Edina, EP then Rapids.

What are you even talking about? Not sure why or for what you are referencing me in this post.

Traxler wrote:

mnmouth wrote:

Traxler wrote:You're making my point for me. I don't see the disagreement.

Please explain . . .

Based on the 3A thread the people in southwest MN love their teams dearly and are more excited about those rivalries than any other games in the state. They don't care about White Bear Lake and Hill-Murray. Similarly, you don't care about Luverne's games nor do many people outside of that geographic area.

Ties to a school or region heavily impact how much someone cares about a particular rivalry.

I'm not saying that Warroad-Roseau or White Bear Lake-Hill-Murray aren't good rivalries, but someone like Slammer is going to say the East - Cloquet rivalry is the best because of how much he cares about East. He's not wrong, it's just the best for him. A friend of mine is from Warroad and his favorite rivalry is the Warroad-Roseau rivalry. I bet he doesn't even know that Luverne has an undefeated team this year. I'm also sure he couldn't name who their rival is.

So, when you say not many people outside of SW Minnesota are going to travel to Luverne or Marshall to watch those teams play, that's the point I was making too. Similarly, not many people from Luverne are going to travel to Warroad or Roseau for that rivalry, or up to Duluth or Cloquet for that one.

Best is subjective and largely dependent on personal interest.

All that being said the arguments are fun to watch about which is best. And, I'm sorry for going a bit off point on the thread. My favorite 7AA rivalry is East-Cloquet, but until this year it wasn't much of a rivalry as of late.

While I agree with much of this--there is plenty of subjectivity at play here, and there's no way to really compare the intensity of East-Cloquet to Luverne-Marshall or whatever--we do have some history to fall back on. Someone did a study of the major AA playoff rivalries a few years back, and I believe East-Cloquet had the tightest overall record (11-9 East), the closest scoreline, and the most close games. There have been some stretches where East has taken control (the late 90s, the past 5 years), but for whatever reason, this one is consistently very even. 5 of their last 7 playoff meetings have ended with the lower seed winning (though in a few of those cases, the gap in the rankings and talent between the two was pretty much nonexistent). I'm not going to try to call it "better" than other rivalries, but from the objective data we do have, East-Cloquet stands out as unique, at the very least.

I'm not saying this should be some excuse that gets East a higher seed, or that it somehow lessens the value of Cloquet's win--I'm just saying something is going on there.

In response to another argument being thrown around here, I will also point out the Cloquet is substantially ahead of Virginia in all of the computer rankings. Head-to-head results can seem clear enough, but it doesn't take much effort to create a web of transitive property nonsense, especially in this year's 7AA. That's why I'll beat the same drum I've been beating for years, no matter which section or teams are involved: use the rankings first, and then separate any close teams with head-to-head results from there.

Ultimately, if I throw my red and grey glasses back on, I'm pretty ambivalent about possible semifinal opponents. I think there are pluses and minuses to playing each of the other top three, and because of that, I don't much care which seed East gets.

There is, however, one quarterfinal matchup that I would really prefer they'd avoid.

karl(east) wrote:

There is, however, one quarterfinal matchup that I would really prefer they'd avoid.

Amen!

karl(east) wrote:That's why I'll beat the same drum I've been beating for years, no matter which section or teams are involved: use the rankings first, and then separate any close teams with head-to-head results from there.

So does that mean your section seeds would be:

1. Andover
2. Elk River
3. Duluth East

Traxler wrote:

karl(east) wrote:That's why I'll beat the same drum I've been beating for years, no matter which section or teams are involved: use the rankings first, and then separate any close teams with head-to-head results from there.

So does that mean your section seeds would be:

1. Andover
2. Elk River
3. Duluth East

And East beat Andover 3-1 so that doesnt work for what you have..

Usthockey13 wrote:

Traxler wrote:

karl(east) wrote:That's why I'll beat the same drum I've been beating for years, no matter which section or teams are involved: use the rankings first, and then separate any close teams with head-to-head results from there.

So does that mean your section seeds would be:

1. Andover
2. Elk River
3. Duluth East

And East beat Andover 3-1 so that doesnt work for what you have..

For what who has? I was asking him a question not stating my opinion.

So who's going to drive down to hinckley and secretly record the seeding meeting to highschoolcube??

I'm sure someone can get the inside scoop from their connections with some coaches. Typically things go the way they should.

With attention on the Andover V Blaine game tonight let's not sleep on ER at Anoka. Anoka played Andover tough in a 3-2 loss and have been playing well with good goaltending. They played a close game last Monday in ER in a 3:00 game. Can you say trap game? ER played well against Centennial and this game may show us if they have adjusted post Zerban and if they can get the mojo back and have a shot at sections.

Slammer wrote:So who's going to drive down to hinckley and secretly record the seeding meeting to highschoolcube??

I'm on it boys

Traxler wrote:

karl(east) wrote:That's why I'll beat the same drum I've been beating for years, no matter which section or teams are involved: use the rankings first, and then separate any close teams with head-to-head results from there.

So does that mean your section seeds would be:

1. Andover
2. Elk River
3. Duluth East

No, the top 3 are close enough to separate with head-to-head. With those 3, it's mercifully easy: Elky is 2-1 against that group, East is 1-1, and Andover is 1-2.

1. Elk River
2. East
3. Andover

Rapids has hit just enough bumps in the road to be #4, though they are close enough that I wouldn't protest much if they nudged up to #3. No higher than that, though.

karl(east) wrote:

Traxler wrote:

karl(east) wrote:That's why I'll beat the same drum I've been beating for years, no matter which section or teams are involved: use the rankings first, and then separate any close teams with head-to-head results from there.

So does that mean your section seeds would be:

1. Andover
2. Elk River
3. Duluth East

No, the top 3 are close enough to separate with head-to-head. With those 3, it's mercifully easy: Elky is 2-1 against that group, East is 1-1, and Andover is 1-2.

1. Elk River
2. East
3. Andover

Rapids has hit just enough bumps in the road to be #4, though they are close enough that I wouldn't protest much if they nudged up to #3. No higher than that, though.

I agree with that analysis. Part of me hopes the seeds are completely wild just to lead to more discussion about why. Specifically it'd be fun to see someone other than Elk River as the #1. I think Elk River should be #1, but would be amused if they weren't.

Gordie Roberts is most likely not that concerned about his seed as he is about having his club prepared.

I don't buy that a coach isn't concerned about their seed. Are you suggesting that during the "make a case for their team" portion of the seeding meeting Gordie Roberts is going to pass and just let all the other coaches talk?

Traxler wrote:I don't buy that a coach isn't concerned about their seed. Are you suggesting that during the "make a case for their team" portion of the seeding meeting Gordie Roberts is going to pass and just let all the other coaches talk?

No he just doesn't seem that dynamic, laid back but ultra competitive. After SARS it is a big change.