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Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:52 am
by Teamusa1980
This is the way I see it as a coach. Referees are being paid to do a job. My expectation is that they are the hardest working individuals on the ice. If a ref(s) are doing their job I will not question calls because I feel they are doing the best they can. However, if a ref(s) are lazy, not moving with the play and consistently out of position they should expect to be questioned. Bottom line to any/all officials out there, your effort will win over any credible hockey coach.
Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 10:06 am
by 57special
Ref22 wrote:57special wrote:If a stick is slashed out of an opposing players hand (very obvious, strong slash) but no contact with the players body is made then is it a penalty? I know they call it most times in the NHL now, but never used to.
Yes, it is a penalty. The purpose of the stick is only to play the puck.
Thought so, but was told that it wasn't by ref at a recent Squirt game. It was one of those times I was left speechless. They were horrible. Having said that, the other two games we has superb reffing. One was in a very tough OT Shootout that went 9 shooters, where it could be argued that just one mistake could've been critical.
As I've gotten older I've found that I argue with officials (baseball and hockey) less and less. Even though I may have a point, it sets a bad example for the kids. 98%of the time refs don't affect the final outcome(though I've found with baseball umpires that the figure is more like 95%).
Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 10:29 am
by Ref22
57special wrote:Ref22 wrote:57special wrote:If a stick is slashed out of an opposing players hand (very obvious, strong slash) but no contact with the players body is made then is it a penalty? I know they call it most times in the NHL now, but never used to.
Yes, it is a penalty. The purpose of the stick is only to play the puck.
Thought so, but was told that it wasn't by ref at a recent Squirt game. It was one of those times I was left speechless. They were horrible. Having said that, the other two games we has superb reffing. One was in a very tough OT Shootout that went 9 shooters, where it could be argued that just one mistake could've been critical.
As I've gotten older I've found that I argue with officials (baseball and hockey) less and less. Even though I may have a point, it sets a bad example for the kids. 98%of the time refs don't affect the final outcome(though I've found with baseball umpires that the figure is more like 95%).
Agreed in my experience as a coach also. Though when I was in college hearing my coaches vocabulary while arguing was impressive and made us chuckle quite a bit.
Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:51 pm
by Double22
SCBlueLiner wrote:Ref22 wrote:bestpopcorn wrote:How many know the rules as they are TODAY?
I don't ref, but have run the clock for 15 years. As such, I am privy to the refs chatting between periods, etc. Many stories revolve around fans and coaches complaining based on old rules.
Coaches are pretty good at staying up to date on rules. I generally try not to be rabbit ears but sometimes with the way the rinks are laid out you can't help but hear the parents in the stands. We hear some crazy stuff, but I wouldn't expect a parent to read the rule book.
One rule a lot of coaches and fans haven't grasped is an icing call that was waived off but the back ref or linesmen but whistled down by the front ref. The face off takes place at the nearest end zone face off spot of where the icing was called. Previously face offs resulting in erroneous icings took place at center ice which is what many think is still the rule. Usually not a huge deal but the question almost gets raised.
I was guilty of getting on a ref about that early this season. Have to admit
, I didn't know the rule and had to look it up. I was wrong, however, I maintain the rule is unfair. We were on a power play when the shorthanded team iced the puck which the ref accidently blew dead. The result was a faceoff in our zone to the right of the goaltender. We lost the faceoff which resulted in a scoring chance for the other team. Thankfully they didn't convert.
Why punish a team with a defensive zone faceoff for a referree's error? It was explained that this is where the puck was when it was blown dead so this is where play should be restarted. Problem is, we were on a power play and the other team was changing lines. The play was not being contested at all in our end and we were freely breaking out. The whistle resulted in a contested faceoff. Two completely different scenarios.
I'll play Devil's Advocate here. Why punish the short-handed team that iced the puck by bringing it back to center ice (with the clock stopped) for the ensuing face-off? That makes no sense either.
I can imagine it can be frustrating for refs to get barked at by coaches who clearly have not taken the time to be well-versed on the playing rules.
Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:58 pm
by DrGaf
Why don't the ref's listen to me more often?
I constantly offer constructive criticism and try to help them make the correct calls on the ice.
I feel like my vast knowledge of what is or isn't a penalty is going unheard and unappreciated.
I'm starting to feel like they are ignoring me. This is unacceptable. I've been a hockey dad for near a decade now. I know things dammit.
Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 1:41 pm
by Ref22
Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 4:02 pm
by Bluewhitefan
DrGaf wrote:Why don't the ref's listen to me more often?
I constantly offer constructive criticism and try to help them make the correct calls on the ice.
I feel like my vast knowledge of what is or isn't a penalty is going unheard and unappreciated.
I'm starting to feel like they are ignoring me. This is unacceptable. I've been a hockey dad for near a decade now. I know things dammit.
Nice broad-brush generalization. Believe it or not, there are actually some reasonable, experienced coaches that simply want an explanation regarding a call - and owe it to their kids to request one. Also, believe it or not, there are actually some, maybe many, refs that make bad calls, don't know the rules, use foul language in front of little kids, treat coaches with no respect and, in short, don't belong on the ice - at any level.
There are bad refs, just as there are bad coaches, parents etc. To imply that every coach is whining just because they want an explanation simply perpetuates the arrogant power trip that some refs are on.
Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 4:13 pm
by Nevertoomuchhockey
So what happens or should happen when the ref calls a player for a penalty that was just getting on the ice, not even playing when the whistle was blown? I know right? Twice in one game this summer.
And do coaches have the authority to correct the stat sheet when goals/assists are attributed to the wrong kids? I think in general fans and teams mostly overlook that as long as the right team was credited. But I've seen a few incidences recently where you'd think Johnny's D1 dreams were at risk because the refs gave the point to Mikey.
Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 4:28 pm
by Ref22
Nevertoomuchhockey wrote:
And do coaches have the authority to correct the stat sheet when goals/assists are attributed to the wrong kids? I think in general fans and teams mostly overlook that as long as the right team was credited. But I've seen a few incidences recently where you'd think Johnny's D1 dreams were at risk because the refs gave the point to Mikey.
No they can't alter the stat sheet unless the change is made before the referees sign it after the game. Thing is most coaches don't see the scoreshhet until after they leave the lockerroom to head home and the team manager hands it to them. I would never be one bit bothered if a coach wanted me to correct the scoring. We get it right most of the time but not 100%. At the youth level though keeping unofficial stats on a spreadsheet or something would obviously be something you could switch to the correct player on for accuracy.
Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 4:29 pm
by Bluewhitefan
Nevertoomuchhockey wrote:So what happens or should happen when the ref calls a player for a penalty that was just getting on the ice, not even playing when the whistle was blown? I know right? Twice in one game this summer.
And do coaches have the authority to correct the stat sheet when goals/assists are attributed to the wrong kids? I think in general fans and teams mostly overlook that as long as the right team was credited. But I've seen a few incidences recently where you'd think Johnny's D1 dreams were at risk because the refs gave the point to Mikey.
Have you been to an Elite D or Elite League game? In those stats-intensive leagues players lobby the refs for assists before the puck is dropped!
Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 4:35 pm
by Ref22
Bluewhitefan wrote:Nevertoomuchhockey wrote:So what happens or should happen when the ref calls a player for a penalty that was just getting on the ice, not even playing when the whistle was blown? I know right? Twice in one game this summer.
And do coaches have the authority to correct the stat sheet when goals/assists are attributed to the wrong kids? I think in general fans and teams mostly overlook that as long as the right team was credited. But I've seen a few incidences recently where you'd think Johnny's D1 dreams were at risk because the refs gave the point to Mikey.
Have you been to an Elite D or Elite League game? In those stats-intensive leagues players lobby the refs for assists before the puck is dropped!
Yes, many want the phantom assist in those leagues.
Posted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:32 am
by DrGaf
Bluewhitefan wrote:DrGaf wrote:Why don't the ref's listen to me more often?
I constantly offer constructive criticism and try to help them make the correct calls on the ice.
I feel like my vast knowledge of what is or isn't a penalty is going unheard and unappreciated.
I'm starting to feel like they are ignoring me. This is unacceptable. I've been a hockey dad for near a decade now. I know things dammit.
Nice broad-brush generalization. Believe it or not, there are actually some reasonable, experienced coaches that simply want an explanation regarding a call - and owe it to their kids to request one. Also, believe it or not, there are actually some, maybe many, refs that make bad calls, don't know the rules, use foul language in front of little kids, treat coaches with no respect and, in short, don't belong on the ice - at any level.
There are bad refs, just as there are bad coaches, parents etc. To imply that every coach is whining just because they want an explanation simply perpetuates the arrogant power trip that some refs are on.
Gaf:
Why did the chicken cross the road?
bluewhite:
Nice broad-brush generalization. Believe it or not, there are actually some reasonable, experienced chickens that simply want an explanation regarding a call - and owe it to their eggs to request one. Also, believe it or not, there are actually some, maybe many, farmers that make bad calls, don't know the rules, use foul (ha!) language in front of chickies, treat farmers with no respect and, in short, don't belong on the farm - at any level.
There are bad foxes, just as there are bad chickens, poultry etc. To imply that every chicken is whining just because they want an explanation simply perpetuates the arrogant power trip that some farmers are on.
Gaf:
uuuuuuhhhhh ... the answer was to get to the other side.
Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:02 pm
by Ref22
Good afternoon, welcome to talker Thursday.
Let's start off by a little quiz here. Who can name the criteria needed for a penalty shot? I awarded a penalty shot last evening just my 2nd of the year.
Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:31 pm
by Bleed Maroon and Gold
[quote="Ref22"]Good afternoon, welcome to talker Thursday.
Let's start off by a little quiz here. Who can name the criteria needed for a penalty shot? I awarded a penalty shot last evening just my 2nd of the year.[/quote]
Need to be beyond the defending blue line
Need to have a scoring opportunity taken away
Need to be in possession of the puck
Need to have a penalty occur against them
No opponent can be between the player with the puck and the goalie.
Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:35 pm
by Bleed Maroon and Gold
[quote="Ref22"]Good afternoon, welcome to talker Thursday.
Let's start off by a little quiz here. Who can name the criteria needed for a penalty shot? I awarded a penalty shot last evening just my 2nd of the year.[/quote]
Speaking of penalty shots. I already know the answer to this so won't give it away.
Lets add on to that quiz.
A player is on a breakaway with a player 2 steps behind him. The net is empty and the player is tripped.
What would be the call and the answer for this.
Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:43 pm
by Ref22
Bleed Maroon and Gold wrote:Ref22 wrote:Good afternoon, welcome to talker Thursday.
Let's start off by a little quiz here. Who can name the criteria needed for a penalty shot? I awarded a penalty shot last evening just my 2nd of the year.
Need to be beyond the defending blue line
Need to have a scoring opportunity taken away
Need to be in possession of the puck
Need to have a penalty occur against them
No opponent can be between the player with the puck and the goalie.
I "phantom assist" awarded to Bleed Maroon.
Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:46 pm
by the_juiceman
Bleed Maroon and Gold wrote:Ref22 wrote:Good afternoon, welcome to talker Thursday.
Let's start off by a little quiz here. Who can name the criteria needed for a penalty shot? I awarded a penalty shot last evening just my 2nd of the year.
Speaking of penalty shots. I already know the answer to this so won't give it away.
Lets add on to that quiz.
A player is on a breakaway with a player 2 steps behind him. The net is empty and the player is tripped.
What would be the call and the answer for this.
if the goal was empty...a goal should be awarded.
Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:47 pm
by Ref22
Next one
2 squirts or peewees have dropped the mitts and they have a pretty good tilt going.Both can throw them decently. Parents are screaming their heads off at me to break it up. At which point do I jump in to break it up?
Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:48 pm
by Bleed Maroon and Gold
[quote="the_juiceman"][quote="Bleed Maroon and Gold"][quote="Ref22"]Good afternoon, welcome to talker Thursday.
Let's start off by a little quiz here. Who can name the criteria needed for a penalty shot? I awarded a penalty shot last evening just my 2nd of the year.[/quote]
Speaking of penalty shots. I already know the answer to this so won't give it away.
Lets add on to that quiz.
A player is on a breakaway with a player 2 steps behind him. The net is empty and the player is tripped.
What would be the call and the answer for this.[/quote]
if the goal was empty...a goal should be awarded.[/quote]
That would be correct happened to our team this year. Was actually confused at first when the official told us it was a penalty shot and we had to put the goalie back into the net. The other coach corrected the official because I was not going to.
Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 2:00 pm
by SCBlueLiner
Ref22 wrote:Next one
2 squirts or peewees have dropped the mitts and they have a pretty good tilt going.Both can throw them decently. Parents are screaming their heads off at me to break it up. At which point do I jump in to break it up?
The linesmen should wait until one of the young scrappers has an advantage over the other, probably when they go to the ice. You don't want to go in to break up the fight and inadvertently catch a haymaker.
I kid, I kid.
Actually, I learned this when I was doing some line work at some USHL camps long ago. The reason the linesman doesn't step in is two-fold. 1. He could accidently catch one, and 2. More importantly, during that second when he first engages the fight to break it up he could cause one of the combatants to be defenseless and open to taking a shot from his opponent. This is why you see linesman step in only when things have stalemated or one player has distinct advantage over the other. At least this is how I was taught.
Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 2:11 pm
by Ref22
the_juiceman wrote:Bleed Maroon and Gold wrote:Ref22 wrote:Good afternoon, welcome to talker Thursday.
Let's start off by a little quiz here. Who can name the criteria needed for a penalty shot? I awarded a penalty shot last evening just my 2nd of the year.
Speaking of penalty shots. I already know the answer to this so won't give it away.
Lets add on to that quiz.
A player is on a breakaway with a player 2 steps behind him. The net is empty and the player is tripped.
What would be the call and the answer for this.
if the goal was empty...a goal should be awarded.
Yep. didn't that happen with Brodziak a week or so ago? If we didn't award a goal in that situation we would have players throwing sticks and other sheez all the time.
Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 2:14 pm
by Ref22
SCBlueLiner wrote:Ref22 wrote:Next one
2 squirts or peewees have dropped the mitts and they have a pretty good tilt going.Both can throw them decently. Parents are screaming their heads off at me to break it up. At which point do I jump in to break it up?
The linesmen should wait until one of the young scrappers has an advantage over the other, probably when they go to the ice. You don't want to go in to break up the fight and inadvertently catch a haymaker.
I kid, I kid.
Actually, I learned this when I was doing some line work at some USHL camps long ago. The reason the linesman doesn't step in is two-fold. 1. He could accidently catch one, and 2. More importantly, during that second when he first engages the fight to break it up he could cause one of the combatants to be defenseless and open to taking a shot from his opponent. This is why you see linesman step in only when things have stalemated or one player has distinct advantage over the other. At least this is how I was taught.
Yup. Wait for your partner and each take a guy. at the squirt and peewee level we could obviously step in right away and probably not get catch a knuckle sandwich but it's protocol. Obviously if a guy is whaling on a guy and my partner isn't close I will jump in right away.
When was the last fight you witnessed in person at the Bantam level or below? Youngest fight?
Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:06 pm
by Froggy Richards
Ref22 wrote:Good afternoon, welcome to talker Thursday.
Let's start off by a little quiz here. Who can name the criteria needed for a penalty shot? I awarded a penalty shot last evening just my 2nd of the year.
Defending Player (other than the goalie), covers the puck in the crease.
Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:32 pm
by Ref22
Froggy Richards wrote:Ref22 wrote:Good afternoon, welcome to talker Thursday.
Let's start off by a little quiz here. Who can name the criteria needed for a penalty shot? I awarded a penalty shot last evening just my 2nd of the year.
Defending Player (other than the goalie), covers the puck in the crease.
Yep, that'll get an a coach hot calling that on his team in a tight game. Gotta call it every time though.
Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:35 pm
by Nevertoomuchhockey
Nevertoomuchhockey wrote:So what happens or should happen when the ref calls a player for a penalty that was just getting on the ice, not even playing when the whistle was blown? I know right? Twice in one game this summer.
