HighSchoolHockeyForums.com

blacklung wrote:

PuckRanger wrote:

HShockeywatcher wrote:You're right; you and two other have repeated over and over that SOS doesn't matter and "it doesn't get much better than" doing all right against mediocre competition and saying you would play with top competition in the state? Check the AA rankings thread as well. People outside of Hermantown and Eagan understand that SOS/who you play matters. Plain and simple, if you are playing lesser competition you need to do much better against them.

SOS isn't the issue here, and I never said it doesn't matter at all. Hermantown has a pretty good schedule for class A. Do you realize that if you plugged Hill into Hermantown's schedule twice that Hermantown would have a stronger SOS on Pagestat than STA? Thats right, the only difference in their SOS rankings is 1 or 2 games against good AA opponents - that's it.


And for the record, I am not a Hermantown fan. Far from it. In fact, where I live, I would probably be hung if I were.

HShockeywatcher wrote:Find a dictionary and look up the word defense. No where will it say "the best defense is a good offense" or anything to that effect. Saying they have good defense because they scored a lot doesn't make sense.

I never mentioned offense, in fact I pointed out a very good defensive record. And for the record, a good offense will certainly help with the defense... and I no longer own a dictionary.

HShockeywatcher wrote:These aren't some new age philosophies I'm trying to make up to make a team look bad. I'm pointing out things that based on the results of their games are accepted practice in sports.

No, the philosophies are not new age, but your application of the principles to them appears to be.

HShockeywatcher wrote:LF went on a tear for a while allowing 6 goals in 11 games but was dismissed by most because it was against easy opponents. Somehow, Hermantown is allowed to do the same thing for some reason and not follow the same logic others have to.

Little Falls went from unranked to ranked, so that was not dismissed. They also lost a handful of games and are not undefeated which is why they aren't relevant to this discussion.

HShockeywatcher wrote:It's a crazy world we live in

And its grand chancelor is you!

All kidding aside, my main point is that Hermantown has been outright stingy on defense almost every game, but you chose to harp on 2 or 3 games that they had well in hand where they gave up 3 or 4 goals (note, not 6 or 7) when it was all said and done.

When you allow a goal or less in 15 games, its no fluke - and Hermantown does not have 15 cupcake teams on its schedule. Hermantown has allowed less than a goal and a half (1.48 to be exact) per game throughout the ENTIRE SEASON, not just against the likes of Ashland, Proctor, Crookston, and Monticello.

While you were quick to jump on them for allowing a pretty good Bemidji team to score 4 times on them earlier this year, you still only acknowledge their past couple games as being sound defensively. Here is what I, along with several others, saw that you ignored...

Rogers: Allowed 1 goal
Virginia: Allowed 1 goal
Denfeld: Allowed 2 goals total in 2 games
Duluth Marshall: Allowed 1 goal
International Falls: Allowed 1 goal
St. Cloud Cathedral: Allowed 1 goal
Grand Rapids: Allowed 2 goals
Little Falls: Shutout
Cloquet: Allowed 1 goal

There is 10 games against some pretty good teams with a total of 10 goals allowed. You will be hard pressed to find another team that will do that against those same teams. That doesn't even include the Totino game where they allowed ZERO shots on goal in the entire first period. Yet, this is suspect defense and is apparently "devalued" because they did not play Duluth East and Hill-Murray twice.

You have been questioning the Herm defense all season and continue to do so.
Just what is a good defense to you? Why do you feel the need to question Herms D every week??
You’re talking about a team that has won 24 straight games without a tie.
In the unpredictable game of Hockey, Herm has won every game that it has played and in the process, done it’s best to develop all the players not just a select few.
Herm has not been worried about winning every game and not allowing any goals. Hermantown will be a better team at the end of the season because of this.
As a poster said above, the Herm defense is very offensive. Occasionally the other team will get a breakaway.
When the forwards are having trouble getting the puck in the net, the D is there to help out.
The Herm D has scored 39 goals this year.
In your numbers limited mind you see none of this. This is what you call suspect?
On top of that you are STA BIASED. Do you not see that you make yourself look like a tool?
How many fewer goals needed to be scored on them as to not question and call the Herm defense “suspect”? or If there “here to stay”, etc.??
Is your expectation that they go 31-0 and have Zero goals scored against them before they are blessed by you?
I still think you would find something wrong.

Below are Herm goal stats, a comparison of the 4 Herm/East common games,
and all Hermantown game scores.
Readers, if you are not sick of this, review for yourself.
Do you think watcher is being fair H-Town?
I could really give a crap what he says except that he does these rankings that everybody reads.

GOALS FOR: 142
GOALS AGAINST: 34
PP GOALS AGAINST: 9
SHORTHANDED GOALS: 7 These stats sure show bad D...


HERM / EAST 2011 COMMON OPPONENT Easy to see here what a terrible D Herm has...
No disrespect to East, but Herm has faired better in the latest common opponents
Herm scored
1 MORE goal and allowed
4 LESS goals than East against the same teams.

Also please note the East/Superior game.
Superior is one HSHW’s lesser teams.
(They are ranked 2nd in Wisconsin)

GAME East Herm
East – Herm 4 5
Grand Rapids 3 1
Diff 1 4

East - Herm 4 4
Superior (Wis.) 3 3
Diff 1 1

East - Herm 5 2
Cloquet/Esko/Carlton 2 1
Diff 3 1

East - Herm 4 7
Duluth Denfeld 1 0
Diff 3 7

Total Goals For 17 18 +1 HERM
Total Goals Against 9 5 +4 HERM

ALL HERM GAMES Bad D here too...
Hermantown 8
Sauk Rapids-Rice0

Hermantown 5
Hopkins 3

Hermantown 7
Totino-Grace 3

Hermantown 3
Superior (Wis.)2

Hermantown 2
Rogers 1

Hermantown 8
Virginia 1

Hermantown 3
Thief River Falls1

Hermantown 5
Duluth Denfeld2

Hermantown 11
Crookston 1

Hermantown 8
Bottineau (N.D.)2

Hermantown 5
Duluth Marshall1

Hermantown 7
International Falls1

Hermantown 2
St. Cloud Cathedral 1

Hermantown 5
Grand Rapids2

Hermantown 7
Monticello 1

Hermantown 4
Superior (Wis.) 3

Hermantown 10
Bemidji 4

Hermantown 13
Ashland (Wis.) 0

Proctor 1
Hermantown 7

Hermantown 5
New Prague 3

Hermantown 2
Cloquet/Esko/Carlton1

Hermantown 7
Duluth Denfeld 0

Hermantown 6
Red Wing 0

Hermantown 2
Little Falls 0

KrautBache wrote:http://youtu.be/AAB858elJOw

PuckU126 wrote:

KrautBache wrote:http://youtu.be/AAB858elJOw

You caught me! I tried to delete it to avoid further exchanges, but oh well. Glad you enjoyed it.

http://youtu.be/AAB858elJOw

KrautBache wrote:

PuckU126 wrote:

KrautBache wrote:http://youtu.be/AAB858elJOw

You caught me! I tried to delete it to avoid further exchanges, but oh well. Glad you enjoyed it.

http://youtu.be/AAB858elJOw

I was wondering why the post was deleted; it was pretty spot on.

Thanks for sharing the video; its so true. Especially for some of the folks around here.

PuckU126 wrote:

KrautBache wrote:

PuckU126 wrote:

You caught me! I tried to delete it to avoid further exchanges, but oh well. Glad you enjoyed it.

http://youtu.be/AAB858elJOw

I was wondering why the post was deleted; it was pretty spot on.

Thanks for sharing the video; its so true. Especially for some of the folks around here.

You two clowns might want to take a look in the mirror.

PuckU126 wrote:

KrautBache wrote:

PuckU126 wrote:

You caught me! I tried to delete it to avoid further exchanges, but oh well. Glad you enjoyed it.

http://youtu.be/AAB858elJOw

I was wondering why the post was deleted; it was pretty spot on.

Thanks for sharing the video; its so true. Especially for some of the folks around here.

Love it.

rainier wrote:You two clowns might want to take a look in the mirror.

One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest comment was the most accurate.

This sure is an interesting thread all of a sudden.

I just checked my dictionary and found:
"defense - has better offense than opposing team"

You were right all along blacklung, Hermantown has the best team in high school hockey probably in the country. They have few losses than Shattuck, heck even the Wild, they are awesome. This week's rankings St Thomas will be #5 to give 4 spots for the almighty #1 team in the land

Did all this really come from my making a positive post about Hermantown?! I wonder what would happen to a couple posters if someone made a negative post

HShockeywatcher wrote:This sure is an interesting thread all of a sudden.

I just checked my dictionary and found:
"defense - has better offense than opposing team"

You were right all along blacklung, Hermantown has the best team in high school hockey probably in the country. They have few losses than Shattuck, heck even the Wild, they are awesome. This week's rankings St Thomas will be #5 to give 4 spots for the almighty #1 team in the land

Did all this really come from my making a positive post about Hermantown?! I wonder what would happen to a couple posters if someone made a negative post

Nice try, but I never said Hermantown was the best team in HS Hockey, and you’re minimizing the things you say. I am just countering your constant subtle and not so subtle belittling of the teams defense. I have never said anything against your STA team except that they are good and will be every year. For some reason you feel compelled to find anything you can to discredit Herm and I and a few others call you on it. It’s as simple as that. Why you feel you need to do this is beyond me. If Herm and STA do meet in the final, (both could very well lose before they get there), would it not be better to win or lose against a great team and not one you cut down all season? Can you not handle your team not being ranked #1 for one year? I am sure next year they will be clearly on top of Class A again and all will be right in your world. Cheers!

Grow up. Hermantown is #1 in my rankings, where I believe they should be at this point. I have not put Hermantown down at all all season nor belittled them (maybe some posters, but not the team). They are clearly the two best teams in the state and I hope they meet again.

I give my opinion of many different teams in a thread about my rankings. I have also questioned the defense of Breck and offense of St Thomas; not going to call me out for belittling them?

My apologies to all for making observations of game results with my "numbers limited mind" about the teams I rank.

HShockeywatcher wrote:Watch this-
Lourdes: 1 goal
SSP: 1 goal in 2 games
Tartan: 1 goal in 2 games
Holy Family: shutout
Totino: shutout
Breck: 2 goals
Maht: 4 goals in 2 games

Ta-da! 9 goals in 10 games with 4 times as many shut outs as you listed against teams just as good/better than the "pretty good" teams you listed.

Amazing what you can do when you pick and choose what you stats you look at.

What is that? STA I'm assuming? So what? I never said STA had suspect defense. Your missing the point. I picked those games to show you that they play very well defensively when they play the better teams. Did you want me to list all 24 games? Less that one Bemidji game where they gave up the HUGE 4 spot , they allowed 30 goals in 23 games. A team with suspect defense can't do that, plain and simple. The bottom line is they have allowed the fewest goals in the state - in either class (and I doubt Hibbing will score enough in their last game for that to change).

HShockeywatcher wrote:To what you said:
1a. I didn't realize that because the math doesn't justify it. Just like how I redid all of the math for taking MG/Tonka off Edina's schedule, adding one team to a schedule once or twice doesn't change the overall SOS that much. It's a pattern.

Not true. The difference between #30 and #53 in SOS is minute. Replace Monticello and Ashland with Hill-Murray on Hermantown's schedule, and their score will go up plenty.

HShockeywatcher wrote:1b. Then they should schedule better teams. I'm not commenting on my opinion of the people on the team, just the teams they play.

I am sure they aren't too concerned with rearranging their schedule to appease your misperception of their defensive abilities. Their schedule is about as good as it can get for an outstate class A team. Lets not forget that Minnetonka and Eden Priaire have been on their schedule in the past and have since dropped them, its not as simple as scheduling whoever they want. There are travel and budget concerns for a small public school as well.

HShockeywatcher wrote:2. Using running time as a way to defend giving up a lot of goals isn't bringing up offense?

The point being that when your up by a bunch, the intensity drops and the extra D and 3rd and 4th line tends to see a lot more action - not the guys you will see playing much when it really matters. Nothing to do with offense.

HShockeywatcher wrote:3. Just applying them the same way others have applied them to other teams in the past.

Apples and Oranges. Those in the past were teams with a far more inferior schedule than that of Hermantown's. Hermantown has a top ten class A strength of schedule. This isn't like Little Falls a few years ago when they were in the bottom third in overall schedule strength.

HShockeywatcher wrote:Anyway, I'll keep complementing Hermantown and getting put down for it

Your compliments are always preceded with subtle jabs which is why you provoke these responses.

From webster.com:
suspect
-regarded or deserving to be regarded with suspicion
suspicion
-the act or an instance of suspecting something wrong without proof or on slight evidence
defense
1. the act or action of defending
2. capability of resisting attack
3. means or method of defending or protecting oneself, one's team, or another

If you don't know the definition of a word, and you have the internet, look it up. It's as simple as that. As I've stated numerous times, I haven't seen them play, I have seen their box scores; when you play lower ranked teams and allow the goals they did earlier in the season, that is suspicious of a defense many of their fans have referred to as "the best in the state."

PuckRanger wrote:

HShockeywatcher wrote:To what you said:
1a. I didn't realize that because the math doesn't justify it. Just like how I redid all of the math for taking MG/Tonka off Edina's schedule, adding one team to a schedule once or twice doesn't change the overall SOS that much. It's a pattern.

Not true. The difference between #30 and #53 in SOS is minute. Replace Monticello and Ashland with Hill-Murray on Hermantown's schedule, and their score will go up plenty.

1. Let's not try to live in the hypothetical world where teams in the LSC can choose to not play their conference opponents.
2. I'm not going to try to guess how Ashland would be ranked, and yes Monti is low. To make up the 1.45 difference in the two teams with just two games, those teams would need to be ranked roughly 15 higher than the teams you're replacing. HM is about 8 higher than Monti, so it would "go up plenty" you are right, but still be lower.

PuckRanger wrote:

HShockeywatcher wrote:1b. Then they should schedule better teams. I'm not commenting on my opinion of the people on the team, just the teams they play.

I am sure they aren't too concerned with rearranging their schedule to appease your misperception of their defensive abilities. Their schedule is about as good as it can get for an outstate class A team. Lets not forget that Minnetonka and Eden Priaire have been on their schedule in the past and have since dropped them, its not as simple as scheduling whoever they want. There are travel and budget concerns for a small public school as well.

1. If they are fine with the schedule and it helps them prepare for state just fine, then why all this arguing with me? I haven't ever said they need to change their schedule.
Their schedule isn't as tough as others. That isn't only my opinion, that is what accepted formulas have come up with.
2. "Budget concerns" let them travel 156 miles to Int. Falls, 236 miles to TRF, 177 miles to Monticello, as well as Red Wing and New Prague? Right.
3. I have no "misperception of their defensive abilities" nor have I commented on the "abilities" of anyone on the team. Refer to opening remarks.

PuckRanger wrote:

HShockeywatcher wrote:3. Just applying them the same way others have applied them to other teams in the past.

Apples and Oranges. Those in the past were teams with a far more inferior schedule than that of Hermantown's. Hermantown has a top ten class A strength of schedule. This isn't like Little Falls a few years ago when they were in the bottom third in overall schedule strength.

No one is saying they're not. Right now their schedule is #9 in class A and has been right there for quite some time. Over the last couple weeks, they have risen slightly and #1 has dropped a bit, so the gap has closed a bit.
From high school sports to college sports, there's Hawaii, Boise, Murray St, Merrimack, etc, etc; take your pick. SOS matters. It always has and most likely always will. There's a reason for that.
Take a look at Eagan; they have a worse schedule, relatively speaking, than Hermantown. But they have been a top 3-4 team all season with the computers. Why? Because of what they have done with their schedule.

PuckRanger wrote:

HShockeywatcher wrote:Anyway, I'll keep complementing Hermantown and getting put down for it

Your compliments are always preceded with subtle jabs which is why you provoke these responses.

Subtle jab? I commented that they shut out three teams in a row, said who those teams were, commented on how they have risen in the computerized rankings, commented on a positive turn in their performace and asked a historical question about something I think it would be cool to see Hermantown do.

All positives...unless of course you are looking to twist something I've said to make up some mystery point


Thanks to those who are able to have respectful discussions. Hopefully the next few weeks are full of some great hockey and match ups. I look forward to being able to see teams play I haven't been able to see all season.