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I aplogize for my recent behavior. I've been a little irritable this week. It's not only the end of summer hockey, but the beginning of association hockey. Double whammy.

These guys are the Chefs:

Everyone thinks they are an above average driver; everyone thinks his or her son or daughter is an above average hockey player, therefore it is all the other kids, not my own, that are diluting the pool.

Here's a fun exercise while we're waiting for the regular season to start:

Let's have O-town et al tell us how many AAA teams there should be in Minnesota to keep it a nice strong concoction. Then we'll rank all the teams top to bottom for each age group. Those that fall under the line should plan to hang up the skates in February of 2012 because they are guilty of wrecking the summer for the rest.

Benito Juarez wrote:I would say it's more of the...If we don't do it my kid will fall behind kind of mentality for playing.

agreed.
I struggle with it every summer, but in the end my son (who is a good , but not great, player) says he'd rather be doing summer things during the summer and not be going into ice arenas.
Weirdo!

Ugottobekiddingme wrote:Why does someone have to accept "facts" towards invite and open placement? If everyone just relied on others development strategy they would end up moving from MN to Florida...and post senseless comments.

The question is whether AAA hockey in Minnesota is watered down. I once watched a AAA practice for a team comprised of all B players.

InigoMontoya wrote:

Gone are the days of friends putting together a team, getting some ice time, and entering some tournaments.

Don't just wax rhapsodic about it; put together a team of your boys friends, skate a couple times, and enter a tournament.

The reason those days are over is because those "diluted" teams would kick your butt. They are bigger, faster, stronger, and more talented - all of them.

IM, Maybe your not aware of how good some of these teams were. When these teams were put together and entered tournaments they played against the top AAA teams that were around at the time. And they competed. I'm not talking about the neighborhood kids in one area of town, but of friends from a larger area. Ya know maybe Edina, Jefferson, Burnsville, Mpls. They would get enough ice for the summer, practice and enter 3-4 tournaments. Coached by dads that volunteer their time, not made their living running the team. If you don't think that having all the AAA teams that are around now days dilutes the skill level, just ask yourself what all the expansion of pro sports did to the overall skill level of their sport.

As for my boy and his friends. You don't even know my boy, so how the H*ll do you know what kind of team they would make?

O-townClown wrote:

Ugottobekiddingme wrote:Why does someone have to accept "facts" towards invite and open placement? If everyone just relied on others development strategy they would end up moving from MN to Florida...and post senseless comments.

The question is whether AAA hockey in Minnesota is watered down. I once watched a AAA practice for a team comprised of all B players.

I was at that same practice in Orlando watching kids skating behind the walker...what was your question?....

I can tell you that I am one of those people who is "guilty" of watering down the AAA scene. We put a practice team together this spring and fall to help kids in our association develop. The goal is to have 20 hours of practice for each tournament in which we play.

Our team ranges from kids that can play on other AAA teams, to kids that can really use ice time to aid in development. My son, for example, is unlikely to make a traditional AAA team. He isn't a bad hockey player, but he isn't elite. But he competes on every shift, and learns each time he is on the ice.

From our standpoint our players will be better hockey players and better kids from their experience. Will they every play in the NHL? Not likely. But neither will 98% of the kids on the traditional teams. There are lessons to learn in losing, and quite frankly those losses don't stay with them long. But when they win it is pretty cool to watch.

Obviously we don't play in the elite, or invite, pools. But we do usually compete at the open level. I guess our coaching staff has a longer term focus than "can my 9 year old bring home a trophy this August weekend"!

I fully support the opportunity for elite players to continue to develop and play at a level comensurate with their skills. But I also believe strongly in providing hockey players of all skill levels the chance to skate if they choose. Call it "watered down", or the "expansion of opportunity".....or whatever you wish. But I promise you it is only us adults that have these conversations. The kids just want to play hockey!

hockeyover40 wrote:

InigoMontoya wrote:

Gone are the days of friends putting together a team, getting some ice time, and entering some tournaments.

Don't just wax rhapsodic about it; put together a team of your boys friends, skate a couple times, and enter a tournament.

The reason those days are over is because those "diluted" teams would kick your butt. They are bigger, faster, stronger, and more talented - all of them.

IM, Maybe your not aware of how good some of these teams were. When these teams were put together and entered tournaments they played against the top AAA teams that were around at the time. And they competed. I'm not talking about the neighborhood kids in one area of town, but of friends from a larger area. Ya know maybe Edina, Jefferson, Burnsville, Mpls. They would get enough ice for the summer, practice and enter 3-4 tournaments. Coached by dads that volunteer their time, not made their living running the team. If you don't think that having all the AAA teams that are around now days dilutes the skill level, just ask yourself what all the expansion of pro sports did to the overall skill level of their sport.

As for my boy and his friends. You don't even know my boy, so how the H*ll do you know what kind of team they would make?

I guess I'm not going to understand the difference between 10 years ago and today - other than you aren't calling the kids parents to form a team, someone from a "program" is. What you describe is a bunch of teams that have kids practice a few times before a tournament (there are a bunch of teams like that today) that play against the top AAA teams around (there are a bunch of teams like that today). So get on your high horse about how much better it was when your kid played and how much better your kid was than the kids today, but frankly, I don't see the difference. Nobody is worried about whether they are getting their money's worth out of a $75 NHL ticket with the diluted talent out there; they're talking about a bunch of kids playing a game that you claim you love. As a matter of fact, I don't think those on this forum that toss around the terms "watered down" or "diluted" have kids playing summer hockey in Minnesota - whether elite or in the ankle-bender division - it seems to be mostly old timers, or those who have left the state. To the parents of those kids playing hockey in the summer, whether you're driving your kid 8 hours to a tournament or once a week to the local rink - if you're having a good time, and your kid is having a great time, then kudos to you and your kid.

hockeyover40 wrote:

InigoMontoya wrote:

Gone are the days of friends putting together a team, getting some ice time, and entering some tournaments.

Don't just wax rhapsodic about it; put together a team of your boys friends, skate a couple times, and enter a tournament.

The reason those days are over is because those "diluted" teams would kick your butt. They are bigger, faster, stronger, and more talented - all of them.

IM, Maybe your not aware of how good some of these teams were. When these teams were put together and entered tournaments they played against the top AAA teams that were around at the time. And they competed. I'm not talking about the neighborhood kids in one area of town, but of friends from a larger area. Ya know maybe Edina, Jefferson, Burnsville, Mpls. They would get enough ice for the summer, practice and enter 3-4 tournaments. Coached by dads that volunteer their time, not made their living running the team. If you don't think that having all the AAA teams that are around now days dilutes the skill level, just ask yourself what all the expansion of pro sports did to the overall skill level of their sport.

As for my boy and his friends. You don't even know my boy, so how the H*ll do you know what kind of team they would make?

What the h*ll are you looking for? The invite kids play with the invite kids and the open kids play with the open kids.. Should we stamp no chance on the foreheads of babies if their going to be a grade younger and born between Sept - Oct? Since we've gone away from the drunken dad coached AAA midget teams of the 80's and 90's.... We've actually started to put out a product the last ten years.

Those so-called glory years actually sucked for this state.

Question for ya..? At the 2000 level there is one tem at the top and a couple others not too far behind. Should we shut down the chance for the kids on the 4-8 teams and tell them they can't play Hockey in the summer? You're what has held Minnesota Hockey back in the past.

Personally I think the real issue with summer hockey is not that it's being watered down by average to below average players, it's the above average and elite players refusing to play on the correct teams and tournaments.

Here's a recent example:
The 02 Min/Wis Elites entered the Easton AAA Summer Finale. Their record:
Game 1 7-0 Win
Game 2 7-0 Win
Game 3 8-1 Win
Game 4 7-0 Win
Semi 10-1 Win
Champ 6-3 Win

Goals for 45
Goals against 5

The 02 Miracle Black team was slightly less lopsided in it's record. Clearly the Min/Wis team should have played in a more challenging tournament and probably the Miracle Black team as well. You take those two teams out and you probably have a pretty good tournament where the average kids all have a shot at the championship game.

It's quite possible that the Min/Wis coach who entered this tournament didn't know that he was bringing a firehose to a water pistol fight, but with the Caribou going on the same weekend, he probably knew that the best teams around were not going to be showing up at the Summer Finale.

On another note, we need to do something about winter hockey. Talk about watered down........

MrBoDangles wrote:
Those so-called glory years actually sucked for this state.

Sorry Bo the Glory Years phrase is trademark for the Vikings...a.k.a. Purple Puke

HockeyDad41 wrote:Personally I think the real issue with summer hockey is not that it's being watered down by average to below average players, it's the above average and elite players refusing to play on the correct teams and tournaments.

Here's a recent example:
The 02 Min/Wis Elites entered the Easton AAA Summer Finale. Their record:
Game 1 7-0 Win
Game 2 7-0 Win
Game 3 8-1 Win
Game 4 7-0 Win
Semi 10-1 Win
Champ 6-3 Win

Goals for 45
Goals against 5

The 02 Miracle Black team was slightly less lopsided in it's record. Clearly the Min/Wis team should have played in a more challenging tournament and probably the Miracle Black team as well. You take those two teams out and you probably have a pretty good tournament where the average kids all have a shot at the championship game.

It's quite possible that the Min/Wis coach who entered this tournament didn't know that he was bringing a firehose to a water pistol fight, but with the Caribou going on the same weekend, he probably knew that the best teams around were not going to be showing up at the Summer Finale.

On another note, we need to do something about winter hockey. Talk about watered down........

The scores in the Winter season.....
We're lucky they're only hour games.

HO40 must feel a huge need for Minnesota kids to have Tier 1 Hockey.

Benito Juarez wrote:

MrBoDangles wrote:
Those so-called glory years actually sucked for this state.

Sorry Bo the Glory Years phrase is trademark for the Vikings...a.k.a. Purple Puke

Spelling error, drop the L.

MrBoDangles wrote:The scores in the Winter season.....
We're lucky they're only hour games.

HO40 must feel a huge need for Minnesota kids to have Tier 1 Hockey.

Sorry - my post was not about furthering your Tier 1 agenda.

HockeyDad41 wrote:

MrBoDangles wrote:The scores in the Winter season.....
We're lucky they're only hour games.

HO40 must feel a huge need for Minnesota kids to have Tier 1 Hockey.

Sorry - my post was not about furthering your Tier 1 agenda.

I go by the name Puppet Master.

Puckhead631 wrote:Ok - I have a questions for you all that are in to the AAA world (talking boys hockey).

I have been out of the AAA world for a number of years. To my absolute amazement.

Mid-2000's, there were the Blades, Spirit, Rockets, Metro Wings, Raptors, Northern Wings, Lake Superior Stars, and Lightning - oh, and Bernie McBain's MN 88's. I excluded the Showcase AAA teams as they didn't count back then.

There are plenty of high caliber 1993, 94, and 95s players that played and won on Showcase AAA teams. Some teams even managed to make it to the championsihip game in the tournaments. Lightning on the otherhand. Problem was there was no rules in team formation or player retention and some Showcase teams were great, others - well - sucked. Even back then Showcase teams were notorious for bringing in "ringers" for key games or tournaments - again no accountability or real rules.

Showcase:The mostly games and fewer practices coupled with the idea that I do not need the Showcase "overhead" resulted in competitive organizations and independent teams forming all over the metro and MN/WI region.

Awhile back I would argue you had the Iceman, Blades, and Fire. I guess you could add a few early MM teams too. True invite - best player teams. Coaches (whose kids were left off because they could not compete at that level) then formed their own teams - often within Showcase AAA league. More kids playing summer hockey - what is wrong with that ?

InigoMontoya wrote:I aplogize for my recent behavior. I've been a little irritable this week. It's not only the end of summer hockey, but the beginning of association hockey. Double whammy.

What is your leadership or volunteer position on your local association hockey board of directors ?

I agree with hockeydad41. Anyone can put a team together now a days and call them triple A. The big problem is teams entering elite divisions when they are no where near that level (stars and stripes 02 division had some teams that were way out of their league) and vice versa. I hate seing kids get beat by 10 plus goals, its not good for either team. Coaches need to be realistic as far as their teams abilities and managers need to research the tournaments that they are looking at entering before doing so. Tournament organizers need to take some responsibility as well.

MrBoDangles wrote:

hockeyover40 wrote:

InigoMontoya wrote: Don't just wax rhapsodic about it; put together a team of your boys friends, skate a couple times, and enter a tournament.

The reason those days are over is because those "diluted" teams would kick your butt. They are bigger, faster, stronger, and more talented - all of them.

IM, Maybe your not aware of how good some of these teams were. When these teams were put together and entered tournaments they played against the top AAA teams that were around at the time. And they competed. I'm not talking about the neighborhood kids in one area of town, but of friends from a larger area. Ya know maybe Edina, Jefferson, Burnsville, Mpls. They would get enough ice for the summer, practice and enter 3-4 tournaments. Coached by dads that volunteer their time, not made their living running the team. If you don't think that having all the AAA teams that are around now days dilutes the skill level, just ask yourself what all the expansion of pro sports did to the overall skill level of their sport.

As for my boy and his friends. You don't even know my boy, so how the H*ll do you know what kind of team they would make?

What the h*ll are you looking for? The invite kids play with the invite kids and the open kids play with the open kids.. Should we stamp no chance on the foreheads of babies if their going to be a grade younger and born between Sept - Oct? Since we've gone away from the drunken dad coached AAA midget teams of the 80's and 90's.... We've actually started to put out a product the last ten years.

Those so-called glory years actually sucked for this state.

Question for ya..? At the 2000 level there is one tem at the top and a couple others not too far behind. Should we shut down the chance for the kids on the 4-8 teams and tell them they can't play Hockey in the summer? You're what has held Minnesota Hockey back in the past.

I think we're going in different directions here. I never called them glory years, you did. Do I think every kid should have a chance to play, of course. It's great for MN hockey. So, I think we agree on some things. The question was is AAA hockey diluted. Well it depends on your definition of AAA. In my opinion it is. How many AAA teams are there? Forty? Fifty? There's a AAA team on every street corner. It can't help but be diluted. Is there a place for everyone to play, of course. And that's a good thing.

Should programs, or teams do a better job of placing their teams in the correct divisions, yes. I think everyone agrees it's not good for either team when someone wins 15-0. So, I'm not talking about teams 4-8.

hockeyover40 wrote:

MrBoDangles wrote:

hockeyover40 wrote: IM, Maybe your not aware of how good some of these teams were. When these teams were put together and entered tournaments they played against the top AAA teams that were around at the time. And they competed. I'm not talking about the neighborhood kids in one area of town, but of friends from a larger area. Ya know maybe Edina, Jefferson, Burnsville, Mpls. They would get enough ice for the summer, practice and enter 3-4 tournaments. Coached by dads that volunteer their time, not made their living running the team. If you don't think that having all the AAA teams that are around now days dilutes the skill level, just ask yourself what all the expansion of pro sports did to the overall skill level of their sport.

As for my boy and his friends. You don't even know my boy, so how the H*ll do you know what kind of team they would make?

What the h*ll are you looking for? The invite kids play with the invite kids and the open kids play with the open kids.. Should we stamp no chance on the foreheads of babies if their going to be a grade younger and born between Sept - Oct? Since we've gone away from the drunken dad coached AAA midget teams of the 80's and 90's.... We've actually started to put out a product the last ten years.

Those so-called glory years actually sucked for this state.

Question for ya..? At the 2000 level there is one tem at the top and a couple others not too far behind. Should we shut down the chance for the kids on the 4-8 teams and tell them they can't play Hockey in the summer? You're what has held Minnesota Hockey back in the past.

I think we're going in different directions here. I never called them glory years, you did. Do I think every kid should have a chance to play, of course. It's great for MN hockey. So, I think we agree on some things. The question was is AAA hockey diluted. Well it depends on your definition of AAA. In my opinion it is. How many AAA teams are there? Forty? Fifty? There's a AAA team on every street corner. It can't help but be diluted. Is there a place for everyone to play, of course. And that's a good thing.

Should programs, or teams do a better job of placing their teams in the correct divisions, yes. I think everyone agrees it's not good for either team when someone wins 15-0. So, I'm not talking about teams 4-8.

Would the same ring true for the top 45 kids to play the "top AAA teams around" in the winter(is it just as important to you?)...? These are your words, right?

Edina A Squirts 16
Eden Prairie 0?

There are way more examples in association Hockey.

Who should do a better job?????

Who should do a better job?????

Good question. Who is responsible for scouting 7 year olds and tracking which summer teams they're playing on, so they can deny entry to the elite division?

Also still looking for that magic number of AAA teams that is acceptable. It must not be 40 or 50. Is it 30, 20, ... 10?

Marty wrote:

InigoMontoya wrote:I aplogize for my recent behavior. I've been a little irritable this week. It's not only the end of summer hockey, but the beginning of association hockey. Double whammy.

What is your leadership or volunteer position on your local association hockey board of directors ?

Why don't you start? Let me know how you've been on the board for the last 12 years. Also tell me that you are associated with Edina, or Eden Prairie, or OMG, or any of the other associations that struggle to make ends meet.

The only fool proof solution to the Summer AAA mess is to outlaw hockey from Mid April- Mid October.


All in favor?

As summer hockey matures, I think the hope would be for the lopsided scores to balance out and every team finds it correct level of competition.

Again, it's unfortunate that hockey between March and September is referred to as AAA, that term is not indicative of the current trend in summer hockey. I think it makes sense to call it something like Elite, Invite and Open. You know kind of like winter has A, B, & C.

Do a good job of picking your team and get in the correct tournaments and it all works out. Easy right?