HighSchoolHockeyForums.com

Gopher Blog wrote:

ACTUALFORMERPLAYER wrote:Most of us wish the BEST player won every year. If the best player was really winning they could change the name to best player award instead of most hyped Gopher recruit.

Considering half of the award winners (Ryan McDonagh, Brian Lee, Tom Gorowsky, and Nate Dey) out of the last eight selections didn't attend the U, you might want to find some new material.

I'm a little hazy about the years that three of those afore mentioned palyers won the award but when Brian Lee won the award they really didn't have any choice but to give to to him even though he wasn't going to the U. It was a two person race between Lee and T.J. Oshie, both of whom were going to play for the Sioux. There wasn't a gopher recruit in the race that year.

warriors41 wrote:

Gopher Blog wrote:

ACTUALFORMERPLAYER wrote:Most of us wish the BEST player won every year. If the best player was really winning they could change the name to best player award instead of most hyped Gopher recruit.

Considering half of the award winners (Ryan McDonagh, Brian Lee, Tom Gorowsky, and Nate Dey) out of the last eight selections didn't attend the U, you might want to find some new material.

I'm a little hazy about the years that three of those afore mentioned palyers won the award but when Brian Lee won the award they really didn't have any choice but to give to to him even though he wasn't going to the U. It was a two person race between Lee and T.J. Oshie, both of whom were going to play for the Sioux. There wasn't a gopher recruit in the race that year.

Agreed. RJ Anderson would have been the closest. And maybe Goligoski in the Gorowsky year. Could it just be that instead of a media conspiracy that the best player in Minnesota just happens to choose to attend the University of MINNESOTA in most years, or is that a crazy idea?

Gopher Blog wrote:

ACTUALFORMERPLAYER wrote:Most of us wish the BEST player won every year. If the best player was really winning they could change the name to best player award instead of most hyped Gopher recruit.

Considering half of the award winners (Ryan McDonagh, Brian Lee, Tom Gorowsky, and Nate Dey) out of the last eight selections didn't attend the U, you might want to find some new material.

You just went back 8 years since it fit your needs. Spin it anyway you want, there is bias. Do the Gophs have two NCAA Championships in the last nine years or two in the last 31?

ACTUALFORMERPLAYER wrote:

Gopher Blog wrote:

ACTUALFORMERPLAYER wrote:Most of us wish the BEST player won every year. If the best player was really winning they could change the name to best player award instead of most hyped Gopher recruit.

Considering half of the award winners (Ryan McDonagh, Brian Lee, Tom Gorowsky, and Nate Dey) out of the last eight selections didn't attend the U, you might want to find some new material.

You just went back 8 years since it fit your needs. Spin it anyway you want, there is bias. Do the Gophs have two NCAA Championships in the last nine years or two in the last 31?

Ok I did a few stats on the last 27 Mr. Hockey Winners:

19 went to the University of Minnesota
2 went to North Dakota
2 went to Wisconsin
2 went to Duluth
1 went to St. Cloud
1 went to Colorado College

From 1988-2000 there were 12 straight Mr. Hockey award winners who choose the U of M. Marty Sertich broke this cycle in 2001 by playing or CC. Four of the last five winners also have played or will play for the U.

Not trying to prove anyone wrong or right. Just throwing out a few stats.

I think if you took a poll of mn kids that played hockey in the entire state from 85 to 05 most would say they would pick the "U" over other schools. [ No stats just my opinion]

ACTUALFORMERPLAYER wrote:

Gopher Blog wrote:

ACTUALFORMERPLAYER wrote:Most of us wish the BEST player won every year. If the best player was really winning they could change the name to best player award instead of most hyped Gopher recruit.

Considering half of the award winners (Ryan McDonagh, Brian Lee, Tom Gorowsky, and Nate Dey) out of the last eight selections didn't attend the U, you might want to find some new material.

You just went back 8 years since it fit your needs. Spin it anyway you want, there is bias. Do the Gophs have two NCAA Championships in the last nine years or two in the last 31?

The point is, if you want to go back in recent years, it isn't quite as big of a bias as you want to claim. I don't dispute that the award has generally been to a kid that is headed to the Gophers (mainly because the early years of the award). But such commentary like yours isn't really backed up quite as heavily as it once was... hence such commentary tends to fall more flat these days. Not to mention, unless you are completely oblivious to reality, the Gophers do tend to land a greater majority of the very best players from the state. (yes, I know the results haven't been up to snuff lately as a team)...

I'd also point out that in the voting process, there is only one vote that the Gophers control... their own. Each individual D1 school program in the state has just as many votes in the process as the Gophers do. They could easily outvote the sole Gopher vote if they felt it wasn't the correct choice.

Gopher Blog wrote:

ACTUALFORMERPLAYER wrote:

Gopher Blog wrote: Considering half of the award winners (Ryan McDonagh, Brian Lee, Tom Gorowsky, and Nate Dey) out of the last eight selections didn't attend the U, you might want to find some new material.

You just went back 8 years since it fit your needs. Spin it anyway you want, there is bias. Do the Gophs have two NCAA Championships in the last nine years or two in the last 31?

The point is, if you want to go back in recent years, it isn't quite as big of a bias as you want to claim. I don't dispute that the award has generally been to a kid that is headed to the Gophers (mainly because the early years of the award). But such commentary like yours isn't really backed up quite as heavily as it once was... hence such commentary tends to fall more flat these days. Not to mention, unless you are completely oblivious to reality, the Gophers do tend to land a greater majority of the very best players from the state. (yes, I know the results haven't been up to snuff lately as a team)...

I'd also point out that in the voting process, there is only one vote that the Gophers control... their own. Each individual D1 school program in the state has just as many votes in the process as the Gophers do. They could easily outvote the sole Gopher vote if they felt it wasn't the correct choice.

While this is true let's not forget that people in the media also get to vote for the award. I can't say for sure who gets to vote for the award from the media but I'm willing to bet that a lot of these media votes come from the metro area. They are probably partial to the Gophers I would imagine. Plus many kids who win the award are from the city area so these media folk vote for who they have seen play in person. And since these kids are from the metro they also tend to be Gopher fans and choose them over other schools. There are several factors that lead to the gophers getting mr hockey winners. But overall, I would say there is some bias toward a player committed to the Gophers. Let's not be naive.

warriors41 wrote:While this is true let's not forget that people in the media also get to vote for the award. I can't say for sure who gets to vote for the award from the media but I'm willing to bet that a lot of these media votes come from the metro area.

Best guess is there are two media votes from the Twin Cities and that being the two major newspapers. I'd bet there are non-metro papers that get votes as well (a la the Duluth News Tribune). Just because the Twin Cities contains the majority of the state's population doesn't mean it controls the voting.

Pro scouts are involved (and they should have no bias toward any one college) and there are clearly a number of votes that come outside of the metro. I think it is pretty tough to say any one facet controls the voting. Which is why I never really thought much of the arguments toward conspiracy theories... just seemed like a lot of sour grapes from those whose chosen player didn't get the award.

Personally, I wish the voting process were more transparent. The award is done a disservice by the lack of transparency because it leads to (mostly ridiculous) conspiracy theories.

Gopher Blog wrote:

warriors41 wrote:While this is true let's not forget that people in the media also get to vote for the award. I can't say for sure who gets to vote for the award from the media but I'm willing to bet that a lot of these media votes come from the metro area.

Best guess is there are two media votes from the Twin Cities and that being the two major newspapers. I'd bet there are non-metro papers that get votes as well (a la the Duluth News Tribune). Just because the Twin Cities contains the majority of the state's population doesn't mean it controls the voting.

Pro scouts are involved (and they should have no bias toward any one college) and there are clearly a number of votes that come outside of the metro. I think it is pretty tough to say any one facet controls the voting. Which is why I never really thought much of the arguments toward conspiracy theories... just seemed like a lot of sour grapes from those whose chosen player didn't get the award.

Personally, I wish the voting process were more transparent. The award is done a disservice by the lack of transparency because it leads to (mostly ridiculous) conspiracy theories.

I don't believe there is a conspiracy, but that doesn't mean the process is neccesarily fair either. I also wish the process was more transparent.

warriors41 wrote:

Gopher Blog wrote:

ACTUALFORMERPLAYER wrote:You just went back 8 years since it fit your needs. Spin it anyway you want, there is bias. Do the Gophs have two NCAA Championships in the last nine years or two in the last 31?

The point is, if you want to go back in recent years, it isn't quite as big of a bias as you want to claim. I don't dispute that the award has generally been to a kid that is headed to the Gophers (mainly because the early years of the award). But such commentary like yours isn't really backed up quite as heavily as it once was... hence such commentary tends to fall more flat these days. Not to mention, unless you are completely oblivious to reality, the Gophers do tend to land a greater majority of the very best players from the state. (yes, I know the results haven't been up to snuff lately as a team)...

I'd also point out that in the voting process, there is only one vote that the Gophers control... their own. Each individual D1 school program in the state has just as many votes in the process as the Gophers do. They could easily outvote the sole Gopher vote if they felt it wasn't the correct choice.

While this is true let's not forget that people in the media also get to vote for the award. I can't say for sure who gets to vote for the award from the media but I'm willing to bet that a lot of these media votes come from the metro area. They are probably partial to the Gophers I would imagine. Plus many kids who win the award are from the city area so these media folk vote for who they have seen play in person. And since these kids are from the metro they also tend to be Gopher fans and choose them over other schools. There are several factors that lead to the gophers getting mr hockey winners. But overall, I would say there is some bias toward a player committed to the Gophers. Let's not be naive.

I would like to know in what year did a gopher recruit get the Mr. Hockey award when the player clearly should not have.

FREDFLINTSTONE wrote:

warriors41 wrote:

Gopher Blog wrote: The point is, if you want to go back in recent years, it isn't quite as big of a bias as you want to claim. I don't dispute that the award has generally been to a kid that is headed to the Gophers (mainly because the early years of the award). But such commentary like yours isn't really backed up quite as heavily as it once was... hence such commentary tends to fall more flat these days. Not to mention, unless you are completely oblivious to reality, the Gophers do tend to land a greater majority of the very best players from the state. (yes, I know the results haven't been up to snuff lately as a team)...

I'd also point out that in the voting process, there is only one vote that the Gophers control... their own. Each individual D1 school program in the state has just as many votes in the process as the Gophers do. They could easily outvote the sole Gopher vote if they felt it wasn't the correct choice.

While this is true let's not forget that people in the media also get to vote for the award. I can't say for sure who gets to vote for the award from the media but I'm willing to bet that a lot of these media votes come from the metro area. They are probably partial to the Gophers I would imagine. Plus many kids who win the award are from the city area so these media folk vote for who they have seen play in person. And since these kids are from the metro they also tend to be Gopher fans and choose them over other schools. There are several factors that lead to the gophers getting mr hockey winners. But overall, I would say there is some bias toward a player committed to the Gophers. Let's not be naive.

I would like to know in what year did a gopher recruit get the Mr. Hockey award when the player clearly should not have.

My memory isn't great, but with the benefit of hindsight...

2002 - Gino Guyer won, David Backes was a finalist.

The jury is still out on 2009 (Hanowski/Leddy) and 2008 (Gardiner/Ness)

Since when is what they do after their senior year what determines who "should have" won? It was never meant as award to predict who has the most success many years later. If you are going to make an argument on who should have won, then you had better be using the same type of info the voters had at the time they voted. Otherwise your reasoning is baloney. It isn't meant as a reward for anything other than what was going on at the time.

Gopher Blog wrote:Since when is what they do after their senior year what determines who "should have" won? It was never meant as award to predict who has the most success many years later. If you are going to make an argument on who should have won, then you had better be using the same type of info the voters had at the time they voted. Otherwise your reasoning is baloney. It isn't meant as a reward for anything other than what was going on at the time.

Like I said, with the benefit of hindsight. I have no idea how Backes/Guyer were perceived back in 2002. I thought I made that clear.

Of course, if (like you claim) it's reward for "what was going on at the time", then why would they involve college coaches and NHL scouts in the voting? Shouldn't they just use high school coaches? Who could possibly be more attuned to the "best high school player" than them?

The Exiled One wrote:

Gopher Blog wrote:Since when is what they do after their senior year what determines who "should have" won? It was never meant as award to predict who has the most success many years later. If you are going to make an argument on who should have won, then you had better be using the same type of info the voters had at the time they voted. Otherwise your reasoning is baloney. It isn't meant as a reward for anything other than what was going on at the time.

Like I said, with the benefit of hindsight. I have no idea how Backes/Guyer were perceived back in 2002. I thought I made that clear.

Of course, if (like you claim) it's reward for "what was going on at the time", then why would they involve college coaches and NHL scouts in the voting? Shouldn't they just use high school coaches? Who could possibly be more attuned to the "best high school player" than them?

Guyer was a no brainer at the time. Just as Gorowsky (Badger) was in 04 even though "hindsight" might now tell you that Goligoski (Gopher) should have won.

Scouts get to watch all the best players, usually multiple times. A HS coach watches the the players his team plays against.

DubCHAGuy wrote:

The Exiled One wrote:

Gopher Blog wrote:Since when is what they do after their senior year what determines who "should have" won? It was never meant as award to predict who has the most success many years later. If you are going to make an argument on who should have won, then you had better be using the same type of info the voters had at the time they voted. Otherwise your reasoning is baloney. It isn't meant as a reward for anything other than what was going on at the time.

Like I said, with the benefit of hindsight. I have no idea how Backes/Guyer were perceived back in 2002. I thought I made that clear.

Of course, if (like you claim) it's reward for "what was going on at the time", then why would they involve college coaches and NHL scouts in the voting? Shouldn't they just use high school coaches? Who could possibly be more attuned to the "best high school player" than them?

Guyer was a no brainer at the time. Just as Gorowsky (Badger) was in 04 even though "hindsight" might now tell you that Goligoski (Gopher) should have won.

Scouts get to watch all the best players, usually multiple times. A HS coach watches the the players his team plays against.

Scouts watch WAY more metro games than outstate games. They only target outstate games when there are particular players of interest to watch, but they still end up seeing those players far less than the metro kids.

Besides, since HS teams all play a similar number of games, then no coach's vote is going to be worth more than any other coach's vote. If they don't want to vote for a kid who they didn't see play, they don't have to. The metro coaches don't have to vote for an outstate kid and the outstate coaches don't have to vote for a metro kid.

Here's a compromise: How about they just add the HS coaches' votes into the process, in lieu of replacing any of the current voters?

P.S. - I noticed the Goligoski/Gorowsky one as well, but that wasn't the question posed.

DubCHAGuy wrote:Scouts get to watch all the best players, usually multiple times. A HS coach watches the the players his team plays against.

Exactly...

As for the "logic" of who scouts see, those comments clearly come from somebody with no significant interaction with these guys. The candidate list for this award is not a shock to any of these guys before the season. They know who they have to watch and it is their job to see them all at least a few times during the year. Whether they play in the metro or not is insignificant... hell, some of these guys are BASED in non-metro places.

The idea of adding "HS coaches" doesn't make much sense to me. No more than the media having votes since most of them don't see all the candidates either (I doubt newspaper guys that cover HS sports that travel throughout the state... even the bigger paying cities papers). If it were my choice, it would be college and pro scouts and that is it. They are the only ones that see a wide scope during the season.

Gopher Blog wrote:The idea of adding "HS coaches" doesn't make much sense to me. No more than the media having votes since most of them don't see all the candidates either (I doubt newspaper guys that cover HS sports that travel throughout the state... even the bigger paying cities papers). If it were my choice, it would be college and pro scouts and that is it. They are the only ones that see a wide scope during the season.

The Hobey Baker Award uses college coaches and media to vote for the winner. Are you saying that process is flawed?

Gopher Blog wrote:Since when is what they do after their senior year what determines who "should have" won? It was never meant as award to predict who has the most success many years later. If you are going to make an argument on who should have won, then you had better be using the same type of info the voters had at the time they voted. Otherwise your reasoning is baloney. It isn't meant as a reward for anything other than what was going on at the time.

This is your dumbest post yet. Go back to the early days and the entire voting process had nothing to do with what had already been done. It was 100% scouts trying to predict who would be the best and had nothing to do with who the best high school player was. Every year Mr Hockey and the AP POY are different I'll guarentee the AP POY had a better high school career and Mr. Hockey went to Minnesota.

ACTUALFORMERPLAYER wrote:

Gopher Blog wrote:

ACTUALFORMERPLAYER wrote:Most of us wish the BEST player won every year. If the best player was really winning they could change the name to best player award instead of most hyped Gopher recruit.

Considering half of the award winners (Ryan McDonagh, Brian Lee, Tom Gorowsky, and Nate Dey) out of the last eight selections didn't attend the U, you might want to find some new material.

You just went back 8 years since it fit your needs. Spin it anyway you want, there is bias. Do the Gophs have two NCAA Championships in the last nine years or two in the last 31?

Both, I wouldn't be any more wrong saying 2 in 9 years. They do have 2 in the last 9 years.

ACTUALFORMERPLAYER wrote:This is your dumbest post yet. Go back to the early days and the entire voting process had nothing to do with what had already been done. It was 100% scouts trying to predict who would be the best and had nothing to do with who the best high school player was. Every year Mr Hockey and the AP POY are different I'll guarentee the AP POY had a better high school career and Mr. Hockey went to Minnesota.

You call my post dumb and yet you you say POTY had the "better career"? Well, player of the year is supposed to be just that... best player of that YEAR.

And I'd take the scouts opinion any day over a media vote. Unless you think media people (the vast majority of whom don't see many players outside of their own area) are actually better talent evaluators?

But since you apparently think AP is the better judge, let's take a look....

Associated Press Player of the Year:

2010 - Nick Bjugstad, F, Blaine
2009 - Ben Hanowski, F, Little Falls
2008 - Aaron Ness, D, Roseau
2007- Patrick White, F, Grand Rapids
2006 - David Fischer, D, Apple Valley
2005 - Brian Lee - Moorhead
2004 - Tom Gorowsky, F, Centennial
2003 - Mike Lundin, D, Apple Valley
2002 - Gino Guyer, F, Greenway
2001 - Gino Guyer, F, Greenway
2000 - Paul Martin, D, Elk River
1999 - Dan Welch, F, Hastings
1998 - John Pohl, F, Red Wing
1997 - Dylan Mills, D, Duluth East
1996 - Dave Spehar, F, Duluth East
1995 - Matt Cullen, F, Moorhead

Hmm... 11 winners ended up at the U and 5 didn't. Looks like those AP types are just as "biased".

The Exiled One wrote:The Hobey Baker Award uses college coaches and media to vote for the winner. Are you saying that process is flawed?

It may use the same format but it is far easier for the voters on the college level to see various candidates (although less so 20 years ago than today) than it is for a local HS coach to scan the candidates around the state.

Gopher Blog wrote:

The Exiled One wrote:The Hobey Baker Award uses college coaches and media to vote for the winner. Are you saying that process is flawed?

It may use the same format but it is far easier for the voters on the college level to see various candidates (although less so 20 years ago than today) than it is for a local HS coach to scan the candidates around the state.

38 D1 college teams did NOT play against Blake Geoffrion last year. Either the Hobey Baker selection criteria are flawed, or adding HS coaches to the Mr. Hockey voting is not THAT bad of an idea. You can't have it both ways.

Gopher Blog wrote:

ACTUALFORMERPLAYER wrote:This is your dumbest post yet. Go back to the early days and the entire voting process had nothing to do with what had already been done. It was 100% scouts trying to predict who would be the best and had nothing to do with who the best high school player was. Every year Mr Hockey and the AP POY are different I'll guarentee the AP POY had a better high school career and Mr. Hockey went to Minnesota.

You call my post dumb and yet you you say POTY had the "better career"? Well, player of the year is supposed to be just that... best player of that YEAR.

And I'd take the scouts opinion any day over a media vote. Unless you think media people (the vast majority of whom don't see many players outside of their own area) are actually better talent evaluators?

But since you apparently think AP is the better judge, let's take a look....

Associated Press Player of the Year:

2010 - Nick Bjugstad, F, Blaine
2009 - Ben Hanowski, F, Little Falls
2008 - Aaron Ness, D, Roseau
2007- Patrick White, F, Grand Rapids
2006 - David Fischer, D, Apple Valley
2005 - Brian Lee - Moorhead
2004 - Tom Gorowsky, F, Centennial
2003 - Mike Lundin, D, Apple Valley
2002 - Gino Guyer, F, Greenway
2001 - Gino Guyer, F, Greenway
2000 - Paul Martin, D, Elk River
1999 - Dan Welch, F, Hastings
1998 - John Pohl, F, Red Wing
1997 - Dylan Mills, D, Duluth East
1996 - Dave Spehar, F, Duluth East
1995 - Matt Cullen, F, Moorhead

Hmm... 11 winners ended up at the U and 5 didn't. Looks like those AP types are just as "biased".

Tard, I said when they weren't the same, as in different players winning each award. Since you like to cherry pick years I will too. The scouts gave Nate Dey Mr. Hockey and the media picked Mike Lundin. Great job by the scouts!
BTW, Mr. Hockey started before 1995.

Ouch, your name calling hurts me. I know Mr Hockey goes back further. I just grabbed the AP winners from 95 onward because that is what I found.

In any case, if you feel media are better judges and see more candidates, fair enough. I think that is a ridiculous take. Almost as ridiculous as the whole conspiracy theories on Mr Hockey