HighSchoolHockeyForums.com

muckandgrind wrote:

JSR wrote:I know this, that is all walks of life there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Some kids may do very well skating year round with little or no break and may have the desire and passion and love for the game grow by doing so. They may even develop just fine atheltically etc...

On the other hand I would say these kids are few and far between and the reason coaches, USA Hockey and others suppor the idea of the ADM and the idea of playing multiple sports is because too many kids who do not flourish playing year round are being forced to by overzealous parents trying to create the next Crosby, when in fact those kids might develop into a better hockey player by cross training in other sports.

I am not sure how you identify which kids are which but I would dare say there is no right or wrong way in general. Just right and wrong for a particular child, but who's to say what is right and what is wrong for that child except for that child and his/her parents. There are actually might even be multiple right ways for a particular child.

That said, I think the the experts believe cross training through multiple spros early on will lead to the majority of children developing physically and mentally better under their model and that the minority will still do what they are doing regardless. I don't know that they are right for sure, but for my parenting style it seems to make some sense. It may not for others.

But as I said initially, there is always more than one way to skin a cat and none are inherently right or wrong.

As I and other have said, I would have more respect for these so-called "experts" if they had some data to back up their theories and practiced what they preached....what I'm seeing are these same "experts" recruiting kids for their NTDP in Ann Arbor who have been playing year round hockey and bring them to their facility at the age of 16 to focus strictly on hockey the whole year. I doubt they are encouraging the players on their U-17 and U-18 teams to play football and baseball.

Everything I have seen in regards to playing multiple sports for kids and even the folks who support the ADM seem to be recommending the model for younger players and some of what I have read even says for age 13 and below. Even they seem to believe that it's ok to start specializing somewhere around age 13 or so give or take. So when the NDTP brings in 16 year olds they are not going against their recommendations, they seem to be inline with the idea that specialization is ok for more mature teenagers but not for kids under the age of 12. That does not seem to be a contradiction IMO. As for data, I think they have data to back their claims but as is the case with most THEORIES, it is just that, a theory that cannot be proven to be 100% because you'll always have someone that is the exception to the rule. I have heard you need to focus and specialize for 6 years ot be proficient, that means if a 13 year old kid starts specializing at that age he or she will have ample time to become good enough to play at the college level and will be right in the wheel house for doign so at the right age. Then the best college players, which they'll be part of, might take the next step to the big show. Seems logical to me.

old goalie85 wrote:I talked to a parent at New Hope on sun. He has a 01 Blade. Team is a who's who of hockey names. [Chorske, Nevers, Jutting, Pitlick,Fairchild] This parent told me that coach Jutting comes and runs some of the practices. These guys all played alot of hockey at ahigh level and I'm sure they know what they are doing in terms of skating kids year round.

Oh, you mean Tom Nevers (who was Minnesota's first 1st Round pick in the MLB Draft in about 15 years) and Tom Chorske (who said in an interview that he regrets dropping HS baseball as a senior because his college coaches were telling him to focus on hockey so he'd be ready to play as a freshman).

In other words, guys that played well enough to make money despite being distracted by a second sport as a teenager.

muckandgrind wrote:As I and other have said, I would have more respect for these so-called "experts" if they had some data to back up their theories and practiced what they preached....what I'm seeing are these same "experts" recruiting kids for their NTDP in Ann Arbor who have been playing year round hockey and bring them to their facility at the age of 16 to focus strictly on hockey the whole year. I doubt they are encouraging the players on their U-17 and U-18 teams to play football and baseball.

Muck, I'm with you half way.

The "American Development Model" supporters see things as inverted...too much, too young. As pointed out in another thread, they advocate as much or even more hockey at age 17 than what USHL kids are already playing!

The hypocrisy I see is that they select kids at age 16 that probably played 75+ "AAA" or Tier I games all around the country when they were Squirts. If that supposedly caps their ceiling, shouldn't they interview kids that are a level below but have played just a moderate hockey schedule? (I know, they won't ever do that.)

old goalie85 wrote:I talked to a parent at New Hope on sun. He has a 01 Blade. Team is a who's who of hockey names. [Chorske, Nevers, Jutting, Pitlick,Fairchild] This parent told me that coach Jutting comes and runs some of the practices. These guys all played alot of hockey at ahigh level and I'm sure they know what they are doing in terms of skating kids year round.

I read an article once on Anders Lee (Edina player drafted in 2009 NHL entry draft.) Lee was (is) an exceptional athlete who excelled in football (Edina HS star QB I believe) and Baseball and was big supporter of multiple sports for kids. He believed in playing sports in season but he also cited hockey as the one sport that needed his year round attention. From what I've seen, I couldn't agree with him more.

Another interesting kid in this regard is Patrick Kane. From the time he was 10 years old his father set out 4 goals for him at the beggining of the year.

1.) skate 360 out of 365 days during the year
2.) play 300 games
3.) score 1000 goals
4.) attend hockey camps 9 out of the 10 summer weeks (he said they would have done 10 but there were only camps available in the Buffalo area 9 of the 10 weeks)

They then shipped him off to Detroit when he was 14 years old to play summer Tier 1 AAA hockey with Detroit Compuware. He lived in his coaches basement, lived, slept and ate hockey.

For Patrick Kane it paid off. He was selected to play with the London Knights of the OHL and then drafted #1 overall in the NHL entry draft. Kane said on his draft day he hugged his dad and procl;aimed "we did it!"

Several years later he punched a cabby in the face over a few nickels - I think that's as close as he got to a second sport ...

Just goes to show ... different srokes for different folks ... there is more than 1 way to skin a cat

WhosPuckIsItAnyways? wrote:Another interesting kid in this regard is Patrick Kane. From the time he was 10 years old his father set out 4 goals for him at the beggining of the year.

1.) skate 360 out of 365 days during the year
2.) play 300 games
3.) score 1000 goals
4.) attend hockey camps 9 out of the 10 summer weeks (he said they would have done 10 but there were only camps available in the Buffalo area 9 of the 10 weeks)

They then shipped him off to Detroit when he was 14 years old to play summer Tier 1 AAA hockey with Detroit Compuware. He lived in his coaches basement, lived, slept and ate hockey.

For Patrick Kane it paid off. He was selected to play with the London Knights of the OHL and then drafted #1 overall in the NHL entry draft. Kane said on his draft day he hugged his dad and procl;aimed "we did it!"

Several years later he punched a cabby in the face over a few nickels - I think that's as close as he got to a second sport ...

Just goes to show ... different srokes for different folks ... there is more than 1 way to skin a cat

I think guys like this would be successful whatever route they take. How about a kid like TJ Oshie who never really skated on ice much until a 10th grader.

These guys that make it to elite levels are pure genetic freaks.

Play and have fun, if you are good enough they will find you.

There is something to be said for hard work as well - and parental guidance.

Wayne Gretzky was a talented multi-sport athlete (baseball & lacrosse as well) but he never rested on his athletic ability - his philosophy was simple and two fold.

1.) Be the first one to practice and the last one to leave. That's a habit that was taught to him by his father.

2.) Never take even a single shift off. An interesting story behind that one. After making the national media in Canada as an Atom hockey player - be first year squirt here in Minnesota - his idol, Gordy Howe, was invited as a guest at their association wind up. As part of the wind up, a game was played, but 10 year old Wayne wasn't interested in the game or the windup - rather he couldn't keep his mind off a baseball game that he was missing due to this function. He played awful in the game and when the function was over and he was alone with his father Walter - his dad blew a gasket. Walter flipped out on Wayne for playing so lowsy in the presence of Gordy Howe after such a big deal was made about him in the media - he went up one side of him and down the other and tore him a new one - in Wayne's words "I had never seen my father like that before or since but it was effective and I never took another shift off - not one - the rest of my career"

Morale of the story - there is no substitution for commitment, dedication and hard work. DNA is never enough. There is no entitlement. These are great lessons not just in hockey but in life.

Kids who learn commitment, dedication and hard work through hockey NEVER FALL THROUGH THE CRACKS, regardless of where their hockey careers end up or don't end up, as these life habits themselves are already a greater prize than any goal they could ever achieve on ice.

old goalie85 wrote:I talked to a parent at New Hope on sun. He has a 01 Blade. Team is a who's who of hockey names. [Chorske, Nevers, Jutting, Pitlick,Fairchild] This parent told me that coach Jutting comes and runs some of the practices. These guys all played alot of hockey at ahigh level and I'm sure they know what they are doing in terms of skating kids year round.

Its been said many times. there is no one way. Many kids are multi sport athletes including skating in summer because they like to and they excel. Some kids don't like other sports and play hockey exclusively in summer and excel. I think the key is what the KID wants to do because if they don't want to play other sports, forcing them won't help hockey. Conversely if you force them to play hockey only and they want to play other sports they will resent that and it won't help them in hockey. Ask and they shall lead you to the best decision ...

black sheep wrote:I think guys like this would be successful whatever route they take.

Could be. What strikes me is learning (and living) that type of devotion and dedication as a youngster prepares him well to be succesful at anything he tries.

WhosPuckIsItAnyways? wrote:Another interesting kid in this regard is Patrick Kane. From the time he was 10 years old his father set out 4 goals for him at the beggining of the year.

1.) skate 360 out of 365 days during the year
2.) play 300 games
3.) score 1000 goals
4.) attend hockey camps 9 out of the 10 summer weeks (he said they would have done 10 but there were only camps available in the Buffalo area 9 of the 10 weeks)

They then shipped him off to Detroit when he was 14 years old to play summer Tier 1 AAA hockey with Detroit Compuware. He lived in his coaches basement, lived, slept and ate hockey.

For Patrick Kane it paid off. He was selected to play with the London Knights of the OHL and then drafted #1 overall in the NHL entry draft. Kane said on his draft day he hugged his dad and procl;aimed "we did it!"

Several years later he punched a cabby in the face over a few nickels - I think that's as close as he got to a second sport ...

Just goes to show ... different srokes for different folks ... there is more than 1 way to skin a cat

If this is true....Patrick Kane's father is a fanatic. Time will tell if this paid off. Sending your 14 year old child to live with a junior coach. Think ABOUT THAT ! Does the name Theo Fluery ring a bell?

Kids who learn commitment, dedication and hard work through hockey NEVER FALL THROUGH THE CRACKS, regardless of where their hockey careers end up or don't end up, as these life habits themselves are already a greater prize than any goal they could ever achieve on ice.[/quote]

Well said puck - wholeheartedly agree

black sheep wrote:

WhosPuckIsItAnyways? wrote:Another interesting kid in this regard is Patrick Kane. From the time he was 10 years old his father set out 4 goals for him at the beggining of the year.

1.) skate 360 out of 365 days during the year
2.) play 300 games
3.) score 1000 goals
4.) attend hockey camps 9 out of the 10 summer weeks (he said they would have done 10 but there were only camps available in the Buffalo area 9 of the 10 weeks)

They then shipped him off to Detroit when he was 14 years old to play summer Tier 1 AAA hockey with Detroit Compuware. He lived in his coaches basement, lived, slept and ate hockey.

For Patrick Kane it paid off. He was selected to play with the London Knights of the OHL and then drafted #1 overall in the NHL entry draft. Kane said on his draft day he hugged his dad and procl;aimed "we did it!"

Several years later he punched a cabby in the face over a few nickels - I think that's as close as he got to a second sport ...

Just goes to show ... different srokes for different folks ... there is more than 1 way to skin a cat

I think guys like this would be successful whatever route they take. How about a kid like TJ Oshie who never really skated on ice much until a 10th grader.

These guys that make it to elite levels are pure genetic freaks.

Play and have fun, if you are good enough they will find you.

I agree that if you are good enough they will find you. The problem is how do you get good enough?

There is no single answer to that question. The reason there is more than one way to skin a cat is because every person is different. The less genetically gifted you are the harder you are going to have to work to get good enough to play at that level. Some guys are just naturally so gifted both in talent and physically they don;t have to work as hard to get to the big show as some other guys. If they do work that hard those guys usually are the ones who become the best of the best.

I agree with the other poster who said something to the degree of asking your kid what they want, then use that as your guide. If you create opportunities for your child within the spectrum of what they want and then encourage them in the right way for them they'll become successful both on and off the ice

For my oldest son I don't tell him to go shoot pucks in the basement. Instead I say "do you want to go downstairs together and have a shooting contest", it allows us to spend time together and he really tries hard to beat me. We end up shooting 50 pucks or so at a pop during these contests and we have alot of fun all the while he's getting better and more accurate without realizing it.

I don't tell him to go play pond hockey, instead I ask him if he wants to round up some buddies and get a hockey game going out on the pond.

Whereas my youngest son, I don't say a thing to him about hockey. Ever, he is either downstairs shooting, stickhandling, rollerblading with a ball or on the outside ice everyday for hours on end. I have to make him come inside.

Every kid is different and needs to different motiviations to try and achieve, but in the end it comes down to the old saying about "you'll never work a day in your life if you love what you are doing", if the kid loves it he shouldn't need much pushing or prodding to do it, if he does, maybe he doesn't love it as much as you do.

JSR wrote:

black sheep wrote:

WhosPuckIsItAnyways? wrote:Another interesting kid in this regard is Patrick Kane. From the time he was 10 years old his father set out 4 goals for him at the beggining of the year.

1.) skate 360 out of 365 days during the year
2.) play 300 games
3.) score 1000 goals
4.) attend hockey camps 9 out of the 10 summer weeks (he said they would have done 10 but there were only camps available in the Buffalo area 9 of the 10 weeks)

They then shipped him off to Detroit when he was 14 years old to play summer Tier 1 AAA hockey with Detroit Compuware. He lived in his coaches basement, lived, slept and ate hockey.

For Patrick Kane it paid off. He was selected to play with the London Knights of the OHL and then drafted #1 overall in the NHL entry draft. Kane said on his draft day he hugged his dad and procl;aimed "we did it!"

Several years later he punched a cabby in the face over a few nickels - I think that's as close as he got to a second sport ...

Just goes to show ... different srokes for different folks ... there is more than 1 way to skin a cat

I think guys like this would be successful whatever route they take. How about a kid like TJ Oshie who never really skated on ice much until a 10th grader.

These guys that make it to elite levels are pure genetic freaks.

Play and have fun, if you are good enough they will find you.

I agree that if you are good enough they will find you. The problem is how do you get good enough?

There is no single answer to that question. The reason there is more than one way to skin a cat is because every person is different. The less genetically gifted you are the harder you are going to have to work to get good enough to play at that level. Some guys are just naturally so gifted both in talent and physically they don;t have to work as hard to get to the big show as some other guys. If they do work that hard those guys usually are the ones who become the best of the best.

I agree with the other poster who said something to the degree of asking your kid what they want, then use that as your guide. If you create opportunities for your child within the spectrum of what they want and then encourage them in the right way for them they'll become successful both on and off the ice

For my oldest son I don't tell him to go shoot pucks in the basement. Instead I say "do you want to go downstairs together and have a shooting contest", it allows us to spend time together and he really tries hard to beat me. We end up shooting 50 pucks or so at a pop during these contests and we have alot of fun all the while he's getting better and more accurate without realizing it.

I don't tell him to go play pond hockey, instead I ask him if he wants to round up some buddies and get a hockey game going out on the pond.

Whereas my youngest son, I don't say a thing to him about hockey. Ever, he is either downstairs shooting, stickhandling, rollerblading with a ball or on the outside ice everyday for hours on end. I have to make him come inside.

Every kid is different and needs to different motiviations to try and achieve, but in the end it comes down to the old saying about "you'll never work a day in your life if you love what you are doing", if the kid loves it he shouldn't need much pushing or prodding to do it, if he does, maybe he doesn't love it as much as you do.

Great, great post.

I'm not a parent yet, but posting on hockey forums has taught me a thing or two about parenting, for when that day comes.

It's easy to fall into a trap of wanting to move heaven on earth to do "what's best" for one's kids, but I firmly believe the best parents guide their children to make their own choices about their lives. Sure, they may make their share of mistakes along the way, but I suspect they'll be thankful in the end.

I know I am, as someone who was given that freedom and still has yet to "work a day in his life" in the essence of that quote.

Great post. Sometimes they dodn't love it as much as you. Then the kid two years younger loves it more than you. My oldest changed, as he got older his interest in training grew. one of his younger bros has no interest in getting better yet is blessed with more ability. All five are way different!!! What a trip, sometimes I'm amazed that they came from the same womb.

Pens4 wrote:Sending your 14 year old child to live with a junior coach. Think ABOUT THAT ! Does the name Theo Fluery ring a bell?

Well, it wasn't just any junior coach. The HONEYBAKED (I believe I said Compuware in the earlier thread) Coach was former NHL All Star Pat Verbeek - a far cry from pedophile Graham James, (who by the way, landed a coaching job in Europe after being booted from Hockey Canada - how does that happen!?)

In an ESPN interview Donna Kane (Patricks mother) recalls the day she dropped him off ...

Less than an hour after his family dropped him off in Detroit to play junior hockey and chase his NHL dreams, Pat tried to quit.

"I told him, 'Pat, we're not quitters. We've never been quitters. We made a commitment to a team and an organization and a family, and we can't just walk away without trying it.' It was a tough couple of months," Donna said, "but we got through it."

Here's an interesting article from the Buffalo News entitled - Raising Kane; South Buffalo hockey prodigy Patrick Kane had to leave home to reach stardom

http://www.blackhawkzone.com/downloads/ ... romcss.pdf

BTW: This is pretty run of the mill stuff up north. Bantam kids who get drafted in the WHL Draft or the OHL's Selection Priotity most often have to leave home and live with 'billets' while taking on whatever assignment (usually Midget AAA or AA) their clubs put forth for them.

One of the GREAT ADVANTAGES for Minnesota kids past Bantam is the security of their own homes and the guidance of their own parents during their High School / U16, Jr Gold etc. years - A LOT OF CANADIAN KIDS fall through cracks once they leave home and succumb to the temptations offered as minor celebrities in small hockey crazed communities - a lot of pressure for 15-20 year old kids.

I think Pens4 knows a lot more about what it takes to make it to the show than most anyone here since he did it himself.