HighSchoolHockeyForums.com

I think we all need to remember that these are high school kids we are talking about. I am not making excuses for Edina, but to play up and down is not always the coaches fault. They can prepare the team to play to the best of their abilities and if they play a bad game, well, it happens. This is the good and bad of playing a one and done state tourney. If Edina plays bad one night and Moorhead plays good, Moorhead moves on. Moorhead wanted it more. Maybe Edina was overlooking them a bit, who knows. Looked to me like Edina had one bad night. Something no one can do at state and expect to win.

Doglover wrote:Watching the quality kids on Edina and Moorhead made me proud to be a hockey fan.

Well, I just think it's interesting. Look at the Moorhead team that beat Edina. As others have observed, they were on a mission. THEN, look at the Moorhead team that lost to Eden Prairie Saturday night. That was without question one of the most disappointing games of the tournament. EP goes up 2-0, Moorhead gets a goal disallowed, and the game is OVER. I can't believe with two full periods left to play, Moorhead didn't at least try. It was a very sad thing to watch.

Conversely, when Edina started to make their run back in the 3rd against Moorhead, I think everyone in the rink thought, oh-oh, here they come. Unfortunately, a couple very quick goals by Moorhead put the icing on the "cake".

End of the day, it almost comes down to consistency of effort vs raw talent. While I'll take both, give me a team that wants it.

komada77 wrote:I've gotta believe it's coaching. Edina was hands down the most talented team in the state this year, and all of you who watched the section finals against Jefferson can back me up when I say that, when this team played up to their talent, there is not a team in the state who is within 3 goals of them. If they play every game as well as they did vs. Jefferson, they go undefeated this year and they go down one of the best teams ever in MN. Even if they play 75% as well as they did vs. Jeffeson, I still don't think there's a team in MN that can beat them. It's the coaches job to get a team to play up to their potential, especially in the biggest game(s) of the year, and Giles did not do that.

I also believe coaching is a concern. If anyone watched this Edina team play Jefferson they were a completely different team in the section championship. How do you play like that in sections and not even close to the same level in the State tourney? Are you kidding me?
Lets get real here with or without Budish Edina was still the top ranked team in state. I really hope the Edina people don't blame an injury to Budish as the excuse of not winning state. The Edina team I saw at sections and State tourney were totally two different teams. Someone has to answer to that.

First, I will reiterate what o-town has already pointed out:

07 - state consolation champ
08 - state runner up
09 - state consolation champ

and we are asking "what's wrong with Edina?"

It's kinda like times when there would be some "Team X" who would play a pretty even game (or period) with Edina and then you would see comments about how "Team X" was dominating or outplaying Edina (as if not getting buried by them is equivalent to outplaying them).

Clearly this has been a top team that has some amazing accomplishments the past three years. Too bad for those seniors, they never won it all. But it is hard to do, and more often than not, the favorite team is not the one that wins it. (Who knows, maybe that will be a good thing for the Hornets next year...)

I will offer some critique. I love coaching and have, perhaps, too high of expectations for the coach. I tend to agree with the sentiment that Giles overplayed the first line. I don't think it was as bad this past season as the previous year. But I have similar thoughts to MN hockey08. There is still talent on lines 2 and 3 and I think they could have elevated their play more if Giles put them on the ice more. Also, I was surprised that Giles did not have his defensemen playing tighter particularly as their opponents are breaking out of the zone. Against Jefferson, they were awesome at this -- and for the first five minutes or so of period 3 against Moorhead (the best hockey the Hornets played all tournament). I heard it suggested that Giles may have undercoached this group just trying to let them unleash their talent (or possibly that that is his coaching style in general). I don't know, but there may be something to that argument.

Overall, though, those are not major complaints. If these are the worst things that can be said about a coach, then that's not so bad. I am certainly not going to call for Giles to be replaced. I don't think a team can accomplish so much if they don't have at least a good coach.

Congrats to the entire team on a very good 08-09 season!

Judgeandjury wrote:I also believe coaching is a concern. If anyone watched this Edina team play Jefferson they were a completely different team in the section championship. How do you play like that in sections and not even close to the same level in the State tourney? Are you kidding me?
Lets get real here with or without Budish Edina was still the top ranked team in state. I really hope the Edina people don't blame an injury to Budish as the excuse of not winning state. The Edina team I saw at sections and State tourney were totally two different teams. Someone has to answer to that.

To speak specifically to this, I'll say a few things.

First off, with all due respect to Jefferson, I think they were a bit overrated. Not so bad that they should lose 5-0, but I probably would have predicted a 3-goal margin or something like that. Some of the Jefferson observers after that game said they didn't show much fight after going down early, so that might also be part of the reason it ended up looking so lopsided too.

Also relating to the point I touched on in my last post about mentality, Edina has never had any trouble getting out of sections with this group, so their confidence level probably wasn't an issue. The state tournament, however, has been a different story for the Hornets.

Moorhead also followed the established formula to beat Edina perfectly. I didn't see the game in sections, but I'm going to hazard to guess that Jefferson did not. I don't mean for this to sound like a rip on Jefferson; they'd had a very successful year and probably went with what they were used to. Morinville and the Spuds deserve a lot of credit for following the formula and doing what needed to be done.

Could coaching have been at fault? Maybe. But we really have no way to know. It's possible Giles took Moorhead lightly, or failed to make necessary adjustments. It's also possible that he tried everything that he could and it still failed. Anyone who's worked with high school kids knows how impossible communication can be at times, even for those who are usually very skilled at it. Maybe they panicked, got frustrated, or tried to do too much. It didn't have to be a collective failure; all it takes is a handful to screw things up. But unless anyone here was inside the Edina locker room, I don't think speculation for either side will get us anywhere.

It's interesting that several folks are observing how much better Edina played in the section final against Jefferson. Got me to thinking, and I went back and looked -- over the last 3 years at Mariucci, in three section finals (all against top 10 teams, including #1 Jefferson) and in 4 state tournament games (again, some quality teams such as DE and HM), Edina went 7-0 and outscored their opponents 34-13.

What does this mean? Well, I don't buy that it means Giles can't get his teams up or prepare for big games -- section finals against teams like Jefferson, Burnsville and Eden Prairie have just as much meaning and intensity, sometimes more, than state tourney games. I think it supports Scoreboard 33's and Karl(East)'s theories about teams playing physical as the formula to beat Edina. That's much tougher to do on the big sheet at Mariucci. High skill guys like Lee, Everson, et. al. with that much more free space have the opportunity to do more damage at Mariucci (see M. Everson - 7 goals in 2 games at Mariucci). At the X, a team that wants to play physical and lock down those skill players has at least a better chance at accomplishing that. I guess the short of it is that it may be somewhat apples & oranges to compare how Edina played at Mariucci vs. the X. (And also that Edina should have petitioned to have the state tournament at Mariucci this year.)

Either which way. Edina has had a good run over the past three years and no one will dispute it. It's a fact like it or not they have not won the big game over the past three years with a loaded team.
I think most people thought three years ago the boys are young just wait until next year. Then last year people said they ran into a hot goalie playing against Hill-Murray.
This year with or without Budish they simply didn't win the big game. I'm starting to see a trend with this team. If your a Edina fan and feel that this team has done good then great. Fact is some of these players gave up bigger and better things to stay at Edina to win the big game and it didn't happen.

I'm hoping that the media learned a good lesson here. Lets not crown Edina Champs until they actually win the big game. We all know that Edina has been over hyped by the media. Just take a look at all the publications all around town. Look at the media covering Edina, Edina, Edina. Moorehead did everyone a favor by beating Edina.
How about the guy from Sports illustraded admitting he was here to do a story on Edina hockey as they were losing the game. Then he said he might have to change the story to Minnesota hockey instead. Do you think?
If some one wants to do a story on a hockey team go to Roseau. They have less people and won state three years ago. THAT"S A STORY!

This run of three years has been fantastic, even without the crown jewel each time. Coach Giles has not only guided these athletes to be the best they can be on the ice, but he can take some of credit for the character of these young men as well.

rudy wrote:This run of three years has been fantastic, even without the crown jewel each time. Coach Giles has not only guided these athletes to be the best they can be on the ice, but he can take some of credit for the character of these young men as well.

You're right Edina has had a great run. The sad truth is the fact that these players gave up a chance to play for the U.S. development team or USHL. There is no question Coach Giles has had more than enough players to win it all.
I think because this group of so called super stars didn't get the job done it will make the decision easier for future Edina stars. Go to the development program or USHL.

Making the state tourney three years in a row is great. Not winning the championship is priceless.

When's the last time Edina has won the state championship?

Judgeandjury wrote:The sad truth is the fact that these players gave up a chance to play for the U.S. development team or USHL...I think because this group of so called super stars didn't get the job done it will make the decision easier for future Edina stars. Go to the development program or USHL.

I'm sure they're extremely disappointed to not have won it all, but I seriously doubt they are looking at it this way. After all, they did get to the big stage three times, they played a very challenging schedule over the three years, during which they got tons of publicity, and they got their college scholarships (including Harvard, Notre Dame and the U of M). But maybe most important they got to stay in their hometown and spend their high school years with their friends, classmates and families.

All in all, not a bad tradeoff if you ask me.

MNHockeyFan wrote:

Judgeandjury wrote:The sad truth is the fact that these players gave up a chance to play for the U.S. development team or USHL...I think because this group of so called super stars didn't get the job done it will make the decision easier for future Edina stars. Go to the development program or USHL.

I'm sure they're extremely disappointed to not have won it all, but I seriously doubt they are looking at it this way. After all, they did get to the big stage three times, they played a very challenging schedule over the three years, during which they got tons of publicity, and they got their college scholarships (including Harvard, Notre Dame and the U of M). But maybe most important they got to stay in their hometown and spend their high school years with their friends, classmates and families.

All in all, not a bad tradeoff if you ask me.

I agree completely with MNHockeyFan. Frankly, I think the opposite line of thinking is way, way off.

I remember thinking, back when I heard about the pact that they made as sophomores to stay at Edina, that it could be a great thing for MN hockey if they stuck together. They did, and they've served as the perfect example of how kids can end up exactly where they want to be WITHOUT bolting for juniors and undergoing that complicated process. I'd be willing to bet a fair amount of money that, given the chance to do it all over again, they'd all do the same thing. Sure, not everything worked out completely, and that is going to gnaw at them for a while. But high school is about so much more than just a trophy in a single sport, and from my observations of this group, they seem to understand that completely.

And I will again repeat that, for all the front line talent, there were 12 players seeing significant ice time on this team other than the four stars who made it through and played their senior year. Hockey is a team sport, and if some of them can't hold up their end, it won't matter how much those four give.

Judgeandjury wrote:

rudy wrote:This run of three years has been fantastic, even without the crown jewel each time. Coach Giles has not only guided these athletes to be the best they can be on the ice, but he can take some of credit for the character of these young men as well.

You're right Edina has had a great run. The sad truth is the fact that these players gave up a chance to play for the U.S. development team or USHL. There is no question Coach Giles has had more than enough players to win it all.
I think because this group of so called super stars didn't get the job done it will make the decision easier for future Edina stars. Go to the development program or USHL.

Making the state tourney three years in a row is great. Not winning the championship is priceless.

When's the last time Edina has won the state championship?

Personally, I am sick and tried of the Edina super group of seniors. Promoted to be the dominate team in the newspaper and media to win it all and the MYFOX love affair with this team. Sorry, they didn't get it done this year. May be over rated due to the media. This team was exposed via their defense and goalie. Yes, they have talented players, but come on, if they couldn't get past Moorhead leaves me to think they were thinking well beyond the teams ahead of them. Congrats, to the EP team that played together and had a 18 game winning streak into the tournament. A consistant team effort to only dominate a Moorhead team in the final, rather than a individual team effort. I think this years Edina team is a dis appointment in not getting to the finals. An EP versus Edina would have filled the X-Cell to 18000+. EP should be a dominate team for the next two years.

I have had a lot of respect for the Edina teams going back to the early '70's.
As far as the team itself, it has probably been the best team in the state over the last 3 years. (There are a few others that would be in the mix)
According to most on here, when Roseau got beat last year it was because of the "weak" schedule they played all year.
According to most on here, when GR beat Edina at state 2 years ago, it was a fluke.
When Edina loses at state, it's because anyone can have an off night.
Here's a couple stats for you to chew on.
GR is 29-13 all time at state.
They are 1-6 at state vs. teams from up north.
They are 28-7 vs teams not from up north. (including 4-1 recently)
They have played Edina-Jefferson- Hill a total of 14 times.
GR is 9-5 in those games. (including 2-0 recently)
Maybe when Roseau and GR and Duluth East get beat at state, it's for the same reason that Edina and Hill and Jefferson lose at state.
It's not that easy to win it all.

Lakeviewing wrote:Personally, I am sick and tried of the Edina super group of seniors. Promoted to be the dominate team in the newspaper and media to win it all and the MYFOX love affair with this team.

I have to agree and hate to admit I kind of enjoyed the intermission interview during the Edina/Moorhead game with the guy from Sports Illustrated who said he was at the tournament (in part) to do a story on Edina and these seniors "unless they lose". Well, so much for that story. That's the problem with too much hype. Can we PLEASE just get back to just letting the boys play the game???

giles DOES NOT deserve to coach as long as he wants. He's had 10 years. no edina coach has gone that long without winning a title. He's had the best class to come thru in many many years and never really came close to winning the title with them. Have you ever seen a practice? he stands against the boards with his jeans rolled up, skates untied and lets a asst. coach run the drills. Communication, there is none. Promotion of players thru the years: zero !! Please go away little man, for the sake of edina hockey.

I think this article paints a much more accurate picture of Coach Giles than what was just posted above:

http://www.twincities.com/ci_11891773

grindiangrad-80 wrote:I have had a lot of respect for the Edina teams going back to the early '70's.
As far as the team itself, it has probably been the best team in the state over the last 3 years. (There are a few others that would be in the mix)
According to most on here, when Roseau got beat last year it was because of the "weak" schedule they played all year.
According to most on here, when GR beat Edina at state 2 years ago, it was a fluke.
When Edina loses at state, it's because anyone can have an off night.
Here's a couple stats for you to chew on.
GR is 29-13 all time at state.
They are 1-6 at state vs. teams from up north.
They are 28-7 vs teams not from up north. (including 4-1 recently)
They have played Edina-Jefferson- Hill a total of 14 times.
GR is 9-5 in those games. (including 2-0 recently)
Maybe when Roseau and GR and Duluth East get beat at state, it's for the same reason that Edina and Hill and Jefferson lose at state.
It's not that easy to win it all.

Very well stated! Couldn't agree more.

rudy wrote:I think this article paints a much more accurate picture of Coach Giles than what was just posted above:

http://www.twincities.com/ci_11891773

Leave it to the Cake eaters. "Giles has surrounded himself with assistant coaches rooted in Edina and North Stars mystique. Dick Blooston was a longtime youth coach and Dave Terwilliger played for the Hornets. Beaupre, who played nine of his 17 NHL seasons in Minnesota, works with the team's goaltenders. Giles' former defense partner, Dave Langevin, works with the Hornets' blue-liners". Do they have a couple of JV coaches as well?

And I thought WBL had too many coaches.

knockneed wrote:giles DOES NOT deserve to coach as long as he wants. He's had 10 years. no edina coach has gone that long without winning a title. He's had the best class to come thru in many many years and never really came close to winning the title with them. Have you ever seen a practice? he stands against the boards with his jeans rolled up, skates untied and lets a asst. coach run the drills. Communication, there is none. Promotion of players thru the years: zero !! Please go away little man, for the sake of edina hockey.

Don't you think the dynamics of high school hockey in MN have changed a little bit since the days when Edina dominated the state scene??? Back then, they had no real competition in the SW metro. First Jefferson caught up, and now EP, Tonka, and Wayzata are, or are in the process of doing so, as well. This decade has also seen the rise of the privates. There's nothing Edina can do about those things. In fact, it might have caused them; they set a very high bar that the rest of the area has had to compete with.

Yes, he did not win with one amazing class, but (wow, am I beating a dead horse here) it takes a lot more than one good class to win in a team sport. But his overall track record is still very strong despite the lack of the big trophy. And that missing trophy is absolutely not a reason to consider forcing out a coach. Edina hockey is a high school organization and does not exist to meet the demands of any fan base for trophy accumulation. Edina hockey fans are not entitled a team that wins state championships.

Edina hockey does exist to give kids the opportunity to play and develop as hockey players and people. If Giles has failed on this front, I will insist (as I did to people criticizing Tim Sager at WBL a bit ago) that these are internal issues and probably are beyond what should be discussed on here. Go complain to Giles, or other people in the Edina hockey association.

If you want to criticize his game management or line construction, I think that's perfectly fine. But realize that that is absolutely not a reason for his dismissal. There is no mandate for getting rid of high school coaches simply because they are not winning.

CasseauCougar wrote:

Doglover wrote:Watching the quality kids on Edina and Moorhead made me proud to be a hockey fan.

Well, I just think it's interesting. Look at the Moorhead team that beat Edina. As others have observed, they were on a mission. THEN, look at the Moorhead team that lost to Eden Prairie Saturday night. That was without question one of the most disappointing games of the tournament. EP goes up 2-0, Moorhead gets a goal disallowed, and the game is OVER. I can't believe with two full periods left to play, Moorhead didn't at least try. It was a very sad thing to watch.
Conversely, when Edina started to make their run back in the 3rd against Moorhead, I think everyone in the rink thought, oh-oh, here they come. Unfortunately, a couple very quick goals by Moorhead put the icing on the "cake".

End of the day, it almost comes down to consistency of effort vs raw talent. While I'll take both, give me a team that wants it.

I have no idea what game you were watching.Moorhead's goal that was disallowed would have been the first goal of the game.It was not 2-0 and then the goal was disallowed.
Moorhead did not quit,they ending up outshooting EP 28-21 for the game.The game was closer than the 3-0 score indicated.But there is no doubt they were the better team that night.Don't throw Moorhead under the bus;they over-achieved at the tournament.

doubleeagle wrote:

CasseauCougar wrote:

Doglover wrote:Watching the quality kids on Edina and Moorhead made me proud to be a hockey fan.

Well, I just think it's interesting. Look at the Moorhead team that beat Edina. As others have observed, they were on a mission. THEN, look at the Moorhead team that lost to Eden Prairie Saturday night. That was without question one of the most disappointing games of the tournament. EP goes up 2-0, Moorhead gets a goal disallowed, and the game is OVER. I can't believe with two full periods left to play, Moorhead didn't at least try. It was a very sad thing to watch.
Conversely, when Edina started to make their run back in the 3rd against Moorhead, I think everyone in the rink thought, oh-oh, here they come. Unfortunately, a couple very quick goals by Moorhead put the icing on the "cake".

End of the day, it almost comes down to consistency of effort vs raw talent. While I'll take both, give me a team that wants it.

I have no idea what game you were watching.Moorhead's goal that was disallowed would have been the first goal of the game.It was not 2-0 and then the goal was disallowed.
Moorhead did not quit,they ending up outshooting EP 28-21 for the game.The game was closer than the 3-0 score indicated.But there is no doubt they were the better team that night.Don't throw Moorhead under the bus;they over-achieved at the tournament.

I hate to burst your bubble but the disallowed goal was a perfect call in that game. Leddy was looking the other way and the Moorhead skater tripped over Leddy's skate and into the goalie which is goalie interference and the call was made.
It's great that Moorehead outshot EP in the championship game but last I looked they don't give out trophys for outshooting a team in state. Moorehead lost. Get over it!

It's time for the Giles era to end and the Chapman era to begin. How do you not win one tourney and only make it to one championship with all the talent these teams have had?????

Judgeandjury wrote:

doubleeagle wrote:

CasseauCougar wrote: Well, I just think it's interesting. Look at the Moorhead team that beat Edina. As others have observed, they were on a mission. THEN, look at the Moorhead team that lost to Eden Prairie Saturday night. That was without question one of the most disappointing games of the tournament. EP goes up 2-0, Moorhead gets a goal disallowed, and the game is OVER. I can't believe with two full periods left to play, Moorhead didn't at least try. It was a very sad thing to watch.
Conversely, when Edina started to make their run back in the 3rd against Moorhead, I think everyone in the rink thought, oh-oh, here they come. Unfortunately, a couple very quick goals by Moorhead put the icing on the "cake".

End of the day, it almost comes down to consistency of effort vs raw talent. While I'll take both, give me a team that wants it.

I have no idea what game you were watching.Moorhead's goal that was disallowed would have been the first goal of the game.It was not 2-0 and then the goal was disallowed.
Moorhead did not quit,they ending up outshooting EP 28-21 for the game.The game was closer than the 3-0 score indicated.But there is no doubt they were the better team that night.Don't throw Moorhead under the bus;they over-achieved at the tournament.

I hate to burst your bubble but the disallowed goal was a perfect call in that game. Leddy was looking the other way and the Moorhead skater tripped over Leddy's skate and into the goalie which is goalie interference and the call was made.
It's great that Moorehead outshot EP in the championship game but last I looked they don't give out trophys for outshooting a team in state. Moorehead lost. Get over it!

I didn't say it was a bad call.I've watched it more than a few times and it was the correct call.Also,I realize they don't give out trophies for SOG,just using it to point out Moorhead didn't quit with 2 periods of hockey left.

doubleeagle wrote:

CasseauCougar wrote:

Doglover wrote:Watching the quality kids on Edina and Moorhead made me proud to be a hockey fan.

Well, I just think it's interesting. Look at the Moorhead team that beat Edina. As others have observed, they were on a mission. THEN, look at the Moorhead team that lost to Eden Prairie Saturday night. That was without question one of the most disappointing games of the tournament. Moorhead gets a goal disallowed, EP goes up 2-0, Moorhead gets a goal disallowed, and the game is OVER. I can't believe with two full periods left to play, Moorhead didn't at least try. It was a very sad thing to watch.
Conversely, when Edina started to make their run back in the 3rd against Moorhead, I think everyone in the rink thought, oh-oh, here they come. Unfortunately, a couple very quick goals by Moorhead put the icing on the "cake".

End of the day, it almost comes down to consistency of effort vs raw talent. While I'll take both, give me a team that wants it.

I have no idea what game you were watching.Moorhead's goal that was disallowed would have been the first goal of the game.It was not 2-0 and then the goal was disallowed.
Moorhead did not quit,they ending up outshooting EP 28-21 for the game.The game was closer than the 3-0 score indicated.But there is no doubt they were the better team that night.Don't throw Moorhead under the bus;they over-achieved at the tournament.

VERY sorry I got the timing of the disallowed goal wrong (too much time at the Eagle), but you can't tell me you thought the Spuds skated hard, let alone as hard and with as much determination as they did in the Edina game. That's nutz. They had no spark for those last two periods, I don't care how many shots they got off. They looked totally whipped.