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Night Train wrote:I think what a lot of this is saying is that for hockey wouldn't it be nice if the kids could wait to commit until their 10th grade year. Until a player has completed his second year of bantam, 9th grade for most, if hard to know how likely they would be able to have an impact at a varsity program. Because of our sports structure, likely bantam through 9th grade, it's really difficult to know which school makes the most sense when considering playing high school hockey. Because of all the growth and maturity issues occurring at this age so much can change between the first year of bantam and the second.

Could the rule be changed for hockey? The rules are really in place for academics and sports become part of the discussion so that's a problem when discussing a change. Why just hockey. But, I can't think of another sport where the structure in place takes a youth hockey player through 9th grade which is after the decision of where to attend high school has already been made.

I'll add, in my opinion, it's a very rare circumstance that a player should give up his final year of youth hockey to play JV hockey. To play with their association friends for a final year is to important to pass on. High school athletics comes soon enough. I like the opinion that I've read here. Unless the player is top two lines on varsity as a ninth grader, involved with specialty teams and regular second line shifts, to pass on the development that occurs during a 50 game Bantam A season, travel tournaments, leadership, having success, for a seat on the bench for 25 (several cruddy) games, is a mistake. Families make the decision based on finances and transportation as the top two reasons. Interestingly, because of declining numbers at some high schools, I've heard of coaches asking second year bantam players to consider JV. That is unfortunate and the coaches are wrong in doing it. Let the player finish his final year of youth hockey and develop during a 50 game schedule, that lasts 6 months, as opposed to a selfish request for another body on a JV roster.

Night Train, again, good comments. You have pointed out the dilemma the parents/kids playing first year bantam have this fall. They will likely want to continue to play with their friends in association hockey next year and gain the benefit from the good competition and will likely just slide into going to the same high school as ninth graders. If the association has been successful, its bantam crop is a lot like a mother duck hatching a lot of chicks. They do that because not many survive, only here its because of lack of opportunity. Remember, at the start of this thread, there are lists of high schools that will roster 20 varsity players of which an average of six are sophomores

Tony Soprano wrote:I think the decision to move to high school vs. 2nd year bantam really depends upon the area. With some of the smaller youth associations around that blend into smaller high school programs, it may make sense to make the move even if it means some time with the JV. I agree that if there are dedicated coaches working with the JV, it is far better to benefit from the extra parctice time as long as the focus is overall developemnt. A JV game schedule of around 20 games is sufficient, and will allow for some quality practice hours in the right environment.

On the other hand I have worked with players that did finish out their bantam years and those parents believe it was the best thing to do after the fact. I quess nobody can really say which way is better, it really comes down to each individual case, what your goals are, and if you really have the heart to suceed in the game of hockey or not. I also can come down the fact of quality coaching at the bantam level as well as the high school level. There are a lot of factors to look at, and that need to be managed properly.

I agree with you that at a smaller high school, playing JV maybe the best for a player. Often the JV player moves up to skate with the varsity depending on the game and a Varsity player will move down to skate part of the JV game. It also happens at the larger school, but not as often. One reason maybe the larger school coach is under more scrutiny then then the smaller school coach. One high school game I went to last year between two smaller schools, the third period was played with only 7-8 players on each bench.

Can't Never Tried wrote:Another factor although usually plays a smaller role in hockey decisions is "cost", with everything getting so expensive and the family budgets getting pinched, HS hockey can look very attractive, compared to Bantam hockey.
Not to mention that practices are in most cases everyday right after school with reduced travel etc...

Just throwing it out there

"Cant" you make a good point. I would add that I always thought that if the kid wanted to play, he could find some odd job especially in the summer to help with the costs.

frederick61 wrote:

Can't Never Tried wrote:Another factor although usually plays a smaller role in hockey decisions is "cost", with everything getting so expensive and the family budgets getting pinched, HS hockey can look very attractive, compared to Bantam hockey.
Not to mention that practices are in most cases everyday right after school with reduced travel etc...

Just throwing it out there

"Cant" you make a good point. I would add that I always thought that if the kid wanted to play, he could find some odd job especially in the summer to help with the costs.

It's funny how that works...my kids got jobs when they were young, but that was their money
In their mind I was still supposed to pay for everything else outside of their fun and games...and for some reason sports fell into the dad pays category
I guess I was to easy on them I wouldn't change a thing though.

To summarize what has been said in this thread, there is a consensus developing on a number of points about kids making the transition from youth hockey to high school. These points can be looked at as a set of criteria for parents/kids to consider in the in a non-emotional way to determine what is the best path for the kid.

The first point is the key date for decisions is probably the month before the kid starts his ninth grade. I believe that parents should use the year of hockey ahead of that date to mutually decide with the kid and set goals accordingly for making the decision. But that’s my belief.

The parents/kid need to understand the rules and penalties associated with changing schools once the ninth grade is started. Those have been summed here, but I don’t know if this thread has actually described the open enrollment (or OE) option accurately because there were some differences. And you don't know if the school potentially being transferred to views the rules as interpreted here.

The parents should know the high school coach/JV program on that the kid is currently going to. Both are variables and can be positives and negatives for the individual kid. That has to be combined with opportunity to make the high school varsity at some point in the kid’s four year high school experience. You and your kid have to decide this yourself. Ask questions but don’t rely on others.

Look at the association and its pending bantam program for the kid if he plays bantam as a ninth grader. Are the coaches coming back? Is the coaching reasonable? Is the association stable? And keep in mind, the year maybe fun and very competitive, but it could lock out any decision at the high school level. Note, I didn’t say that making the A bantam was key, this thread started by relating what had happened to the kids who played in the B bantam state tourney three years ago.

On any path decided, include a reasonable estimate on the cost and how it can be paid, but don’t reject the path because of cost until you and kid have worked it out.

Does anyone want to add to this list? Please do. I hope to use this list and take a hard look at the Lake Conference schools and apply the points in the list as if I had a competitive kid who will be starting ninth grade in the fall of 2009. I would like to do that thread as part two in the next 10 days to help parents/kids.

This all takes time, but now-summer-is when the parent and kid should take the time, then relax and enjoy the bantam years with your kid.

As a continuation of the this thread, I wanted to provide a thought process on how to develop paths for your kid by applying the points above. To do that, I will assume that the kid would have to skate somewhere in the Lake Conference. The first part would be to breakdown the Lake Conference this year from the perspective of a kid that would transfer into that high school.

This will focus on hockey as the motivation for the kid to transfer. But my advice to parents is to take a close look at the kid and try to get understand his other interests. Some of the Lake schools may focus on other interests the kid has, so picking a school just for hockey, may not be the right decision in the long haul.

The first thing to understand is the Lake Conference itself.

The Lake Conference has been stable since the split driven by schools in what is now left of the Classic Lake Conference. It is worth knowing that bit of history because the Classic Lake is close to falling under the minimum schools required by the state to remain a conference. That means they will have to disband. The five Classic Lake schools (Armstrong, Edina, Hopkins, Wayzata, and Minnetonka) could become four in the next two years if Armstrong leaves. That means the remaining four will have to scramble and there will be pressure on the Lake to re-align (they have grown to eleven schools).

Part of the problem is that the Classic Lake high schools in the “Lake Conference” staged a sort of walkout to form the Classic Lake about 15 years ago without "involving" the remaining schools. At that time other high schools joined the Classic such as St. Louis Park. But these schools have since moved on to other conferences while the snubbed Lake Conference school numbers have grown to eleven schools. There will be some “highly debated” changes in the next five years.

There are some new high schools coming on-line in the next few years in the Lake conference area and in Farmington. Those schools could effect re-alignment of conferences. None of the schools are promoting hockey. None of the schools play as “combines”.

The Lake Conference teams go to four different sections for the playoffs. There is no pattern except the Bloomington schools and the ISD #196 schools are in the same sections. MSHL re-aligns sections regularly driven by new schools and conference alignments plus shifting of high school hockey teams (AA to A or forming a combine). The only school really down in hockey this year is Kennedy (winless last year).

The section alignments last year are listed below.
Burnsville/Jefferson/Chaska/Kennedy Section 2AA
Lakeville South/North Section 1AA
Eden Prairie Section 6AA
Rosemount/Eastview/Eagan/Apple Valley Section 3A
Note that the Lakeville teams, Eagan and Rosemount all play District 8 hockey at the youth level. The rest play District 6.

I plan to break down the teams in the Lake at a high level in the next few posts. I will try and keep that breakdown as factual as possible. That will allow paths to be developed for a kid playing first year bantam this year to develop paths and a strategy to make one of the Lake teams in high school.

But before that can be done, we will need to create a kid and adopt him with all his foibles and his promise. My plan is to introduce “Joe” in the next post. He should be, if I get it right, a typical kid who wants to play high school hockey. I will also create a factious association with all its foibles that he would be currently playing in.

I want you to meet our imaginary kid, Joe. He has a sister, Jane. Both play hockey. Joe is a year older. Both love hockey. Joe is going to be an eighth grader and Jane is going to be a seventh grader.

Joe has always been big for his age group and has skated in the same association from squirts through peewees and will be trying out for bantams this year. He made the A squirt team in his second year, but was one of the bubble kids the two years at peewee. But he can’t wait for bantam tryouts. He feels is ready and that he has a good opportunity to make the A’s.

There are some reasons to believe he can make the move. First, two of the A peewee kids are moving out of the association and a third (one of Joe’s “best” friends) has enrolled in a private school. Only half of the A peewees were second year. There will be less competition in the tryouts from the A peewees in the fall.

Second, because of his size, he feels that as a peewee he has been “unfairly” penalized on any physical contact and that has slowed him down. Coaches were always on him about not taking penalties and he felt that he didn’t get ice time in critical situations because of this. His peewee B coach was nice last year and Joe was one of three captains. His coach suggested some specific off season classes training to improve on his speed and recommended a summer program. Joe has been doing that.

Joe has been growing taller since last fall and his speed has improved since the 07 tryouts.

He played defense last year and had difficulty as a peewee keeping the faster wings from turning the corner. Still he has a good shot and had two games where he scored three goals against weaker competition. He seemed to have improved on his skating and his team came close to making it to the regionals, losing in the final district elimination game.

His peewee B team had a better season then the either the Bantam A or B teams this year. The Bantam A did make it into the district playoffs and most were second year players; only three were first year players. The Bantam B team really fell apart as the season wore on and didn’t make it to the district playoffs, finishing third from the bottom.

The association struggled to get a B bantam coach, because board politics caused a “game of musical chairs” among the coaches and when the coaches “sat down”, no one wanted the B bantam team. The association had to scramble and they brought in a couple of young guys from the outside at the last minute. They really struggled with the kids and when some of the bantam B’s got into trouble at an out of town tourney, the coaches were disciplined and are not likely to be back. Sam on the board spoke to us about this. He was nice and appeared genuine when he said it won’t happen this year.

The association also had trouble with city over ice usage and paying bills, so there is some talk of the city cutting their commitment on hours to the association. Two neighboring associations want the additional ice.

But Joe is anxious. He wants give up soccer and concentrate on hockey. He needs to do something physical, he is on the computer too much playing games and chatting with friends. And he is starting to really get belligerent about some things. He was really upset when we told him he couldn’t play AAA in the summer-we can’t afford it and we need to do other things as a family. But he is a good kid, grades are better then average and the teachers like him in his middle school.

Any comments on what Joe should be? Other traits?

frederick61 wrote:I want you to meet our imaginary kid, Joe. He has a sister, Jane. Both play hockey. Joe is a year older. Both love hockey. Joe is going to be an eighth grader and Jane is going to be a seventh grader.

Joe has always been big for his age group and has skated in the same association from squirts through peewees and will be trying out for bantams this year. He made the A squirt team in his second year, but was one of the bubble kids the two years at peewee. But he can’t wait for bantam tryouts. He feels is ready and that he has a good opportunity to make the A’s.

There are some reasons to believe he can make the move. First, two of the A peewee kids are moving out of the association and a third (one of Joe’s “best” friends) has enrolled in a private school. Only half of the A peewees were second year. There will be less competition in the tryouts from the A peewees in the fall.

Second, because of his size, he feels that as a peewee he has been “unfairly” penalized on any physical contact and that has slowed him down. Coaches were always on him about not taking penalties and he felt that he didn’t get ice time in critical situations because of this. His peewee B coach was nice last year and Joe was one of three captains. His coach suggested some specific off season classes training to improve on his speed and recommended a summer program. Joe has been doing that.

Joe has been growing taller since last fall and his speed has improved since the 07 tryouts.

He played defense last year and had difficulty as a peewee keeping the faster wings from turning the corner. Still he has a good shot and had two games where he scored three goals against weaker competition. He seemed to have improved on his skating and his team came close to making it to the regionals, losing in the final district elimination game.

His peewee B team had a better season then the either the Bantam A or B teams this year. The Bantam A did make it into the district playoffs and most were second year players; only three were first year players. The Bantam B team really fell apart as the season wore on and didn’t make it to the district playoffs, finishing third from the bottom.

The association struggled to get a B bantam coach, because board politics caused a “game of musical chairs” among the coaches and when the coaches “sat down”, no one wanted the B bantam team. The association had to scramble and they brought in a couple of young guys from the outside at the last minute. They really struggled with the kids and when some of the bantam B’s got into trouble at an out of town tourney, the coaches were disciplined and are not likely to be back. Sam on the board spoke to us about this. He was nice and appeared genuine when he said it won’t happen this year.

The association also had trouble with city over ice usage and paying bills, so there is some talk of the city cutting their commitment on hours to the association. Two neighboring associations want the additional ice.

But Joe is anxious. He wants give up soccer and concentrate on hockey. He needs to do something physical, he is on the computer too much playing games and chatting with friends. And he is starting to really get belligerent about some things. He was really upset when we told him he couldn’t play AAA in the summer-we can’t afford it and we need to do other things as a family. But he is a good kid, grades are better then average and the teachers like him in his middle school.

Any comments on what Joe should be? Other traits?

Not sure where you're trying to go, or what you're trying to do with this, but you probably just described half the kids that play hockey in Minn. You should be a writer. It seems like you may want advice or are offering advice for parents with hockey players. Parents shouldn't be "managers" as you put it earlier, they should be parents. Players should play and do their best no matter what the circumstances. Your talk of "realistic" chances to make a high school team is a little bothersome to me. I'm of the opinion, that if a kid really wants something, he's going to do all he can to achieve that something. As a parent, all we can do is encourage, support and allow for some of those opportunities. We shouldn't move to the place where there's the best chance or manage their careers. Play the hand you're dealt and be satisfied with your very best effort. End of story.

GR3343, I appreciate your comments. You have raised a question that I was trying to figure out how to get into this thread. But first, thank you for your comment about being a writer. I’m not. You are right in that not all parents can or should be managers, especially if they live in a smaller out state community where there are few opportunities without moving. I don’t think moving is a very good option either.

But here in the cities, there are multiple opportunities to open enroll without moving. I did a search on available high schools within 10 miles of zip code 55416 (essentially St. Louis Park). The site came up with 344 schools. Not all these high schools have ties to a hockey program; but a lot of them do. My point is that there are opportunities and the kid maybe better off if a parent becomes a “manager” to sort out the opportunities with the kid because the parent can help get the information. In effect, the parent is giving the kid the opportunity to do best and working with the kid to find solutions.

It is too easy to get a child involved in a sport like hockey and then leave them to flounder at the end of their career which could be as soon as their bantam years are over. I believe that a parent brings the kid to hockey and then needs to help the kid find his place in the sport as his opportunities to play competitively wind down.

frederick61 wrote:I want you to meet our imaginary kid, Joe. He has a sister, Jane. Both play hockey. Joe is a year older. Both love hockey. Joe is going to be an eighth grader and Jane is going to be a seventh grader.

Joe has always been big for his age group and has skated in the same association from squirts through peewees and will be trying out for bantams this year. He made the A squirt team in his second year, but was one of the bubble kids the two years at peewee. But he can’t wait for bantam tryouts. He feels is ready and that he has a good opportunity to make the A’s.

There are some reasons to believe he can make the move. First, two of the A peewee kids are moving out of the association and a third (one of Joe’s “best” friends) has enrolled in a private school. Only half of the A peewees were second year. There will be less competition in the tryouts from the A peewees in the fall.

Second, because of his size, he feels that as a peewee he has been “unfairly” penalized on any physical contact and that has slowed him down. Coaches were always on him about not taking penalties and he felt that he didn’t get ice time in critical situations because of this. His peewee B coach was nice last year and Joe was one of three captains. His coach suggested some specific off season classes training to improve on his speed and recommended a summer program. Joe has been doing that.

Joe has been growing taller since last fall and his speed has improved since the 07 tryouts.

He played defense last year and had difficulty as a peewee keeping the faster wings from turning the corner. Still he has a good shot and had two games where he scored three goals against weaker competition. He seemed to have improved on his skating and his team came close to making it to the regionals, losing in the final district elimination game.

His peewee B team had a better season then the either the Bantam A or B teams this year. The Bantam A did make it into the district playoffs and most were second year players; only three were first year players. The Bantam B team really fell apart as the season wore on and didn’t make it to the district playoffs, finishing third from the bottom.

The association struggled to get a B bantam coach, because board politics caused a “game of musical chairs” among the coaches and when the coaches “sat down”, no one wanted the B bantam team. The association had to scramble and they brought in a couple of young guys from the outside at the last minute. They really struggled with the kids and when some of the bantam B’s got into trouble at an out of town tourney, the coaches were disciplined and are not likely to be back. Sam on the board spoke to us about this. He was nice and appeared genuine when he said it won’t happen this year.

The association also had trouble with city over ice usage and paying bills, so there is some talk of the city cutting their commitment on hours to the association. Two neighboring associations want the additional ice.

But Joe is anxious. He wants give up soccer and concentrate on hockey. He needs to do something physical, he is on the computer too much playing games and chatting with friends. And he is starting to really get belligerent about some things. He was really upset when we told him he couldn’t play AAA in the summer-we can’t afford it and we need to do other things as a family. But he is a good kid, grades are better then average and the teachers like him in his middle school.

Any comments on what Joe should be? Other traits?

Good story, but what happened to Jane?

Ogee Ogelthorpe asked what happened Jane. She will become part of the discussion as it progresses. Tomorrow I will post more on the Lake Conference schools with some interesting data. But I looking for comment and information on the 344 high schools within 10 miles of zip code 55416 and is everybody satisfied with "Joe".

frederick61 wrote:Ogee Ogelthorpe asked what happened Jane. She will become part of the discussion as it progresses. Tomorrow I will post more on the Lake Conference schools with some interesting data. But I looking for comment and information on the 344 high schools within 10 miles of zip code 55416 and is everybody satisfied with "Joe".

Fred: Joe seems like a young man that has the desire and motivation to continue his development, so for satisfaction for "Joe" he seems normal.

The parents also seem normal (to people outside of hockey mania) in they want a life outside of hockey, so if your question is should he open enroll to another school or assoc my answer would be NO. Primarily because as a family unit the dedication is not there from top to bottom and in this sport it all has to be there.

If and when the family has the desire (they may believe Joe needs to stay more rounded as an individual in regards to sports and academics) and/or the ability to fund more development and Joe takes the initiative to train and drive much of the development personally then I would think you may look at options outside of the assoc they are in if that Assoc does not get its ducks in a row to help develop it's players.

Not sure if this is where you are headed with this, but my two cents.

Bronc, what I am trying to do with this thread is to provide information and ideas to parents about what they can do with their kids if the kid has the desire to continue to play hockey in high school. I am setting up a hypothetical situation where Joe is a kid and we (meaning those people following this thread) are the parents. My goal is give parents in real life of second year peewee and first year bantam kids (starting this fall) some ideas of what is ahead for their kid and the opportunities they have to play hockey in high school, along with the rules that will govern that play. I am trying to be factual on the school side and I am using the Lake Conference as the target. On the other hand, “Joe” is fictional.

I plan to take “Joe” and look closely at the Lake Conference as target to develop ideas as to what paths parents can take. The first data point that I hope most agree on is that if you are going to stay in the current association’s principle high school as a second year bantam, then under current high school rules, you will likely stay at that high school for all four years because of the ninth grade rule.

Your post makes two good points that I see (others may see more). One is that the parents may have to invest more time and effort to make Joe successful outside the association. I don’t necessary agree with that because of Joe’s physical development. Joe’s body maybe at a point where he just needs to grow physically to that next level of body development and all the training in the world can not accelerate his skills. But I don’t know that except it is a good point you bring up.

The second is “the association does not get its ducks in order”. How does a parent know that and if he believes that what should he do before tryouts? This is a very good question and if somebody has some further thoughts, it would be nice to hear them.

In tomorrow’s post, I am starting to look at the Lake Conference schools and gradually breakdown the schools based on what is actually happening this fall to develop thoughts as what is the best for “our Joe”. Certainly two paths are available, open enroll in a school in 2009 or stay put. There should be more.

Fred.......i'm going to take some time and think about how "we" can turn our typical, but average player, with typical, but average motivation, and typical but average skills, into a varsity player.....so "we" can all go to the rink and hold our heads high with our egos pumped.

The solution just might be to move him away from his home school and his friends and find a program soft enough for him to "earn" a spot. The illusion will hopefully make us feel just as good as if he had stayed and learned how to make his way.

Please keep writing so we can all become good "managers" of our children's hockey careers. After all, the monetary difference between a 1st and 2nd round draft selection is enormous.

On second thought, maybe we should let Joe figure it out on his own, and settle for the 2nd round money. I do understand that there will be less press for all of us to puff out our chests about, but some, may be better than nothing.

Joe may make some mistakes. He may not make varsity. He may let this great life opportunity slip through his hands. He may do what he needs to do and, along with his natural abilities, become something "we" all can be proud of. I for one am ok with "our" son Joe either way. In the future when he's at work whether it be at a desk or in a ditch, ideally he will look back on his hockey career as great fun and will be thrilled when he starts to recognize how the struggles and successes HE experienced are making his life richer, and is able to allow his own children to innocently have fun playing a sport while learning the way life works.

Oops, i forgot about finding the right asscociation with a stable board. I'll have to put some more thought into it and get back to you.

SECoach, you understand this thread and I appreciate that. But what does “average” mean to the parents and kids. One can look at a single kid and say he is average by evaluating his play. Another way of looking at “average” is to average the play of a group which essentially then evaluates the all of the kids against each other and rates them. Up to bantams, this is what the association does, it evaluates the group and places them on A/B/C teams and keeps them as a group.

But in high school, the kid is now evaluated on a individual skills basis and that evaluation influences the coach’s choice. Since there are more kids trying out for only two teams, the pressure builds since every kid knows they can’t all make the team. I am glad you see Joe as more average then above average. Otherwise he would make the high school team, end of story.

It is not a case of moving him away from home to find a softer spot, but rather an opportunity to continue to play because it means that much to the kid. And as I pointed out, depending on where you live, there can be many opportunities to play because the high school world is changing. The kid does not stop developing in high school.

The parents should be proactive in helping the kid make these decisions. I use the word manager, but the reason to manage is not that the kid will be play hockey beyond high school, who knows, but the kid needs to know and understand what his options are to continue to play hockey. The high school world has changed in certain areas of the state and those changes can help the kid.

I agree with you that this is a life opportunity for Joe to survive his struggles and his successes to make his life richer. But for the parents/kids now, how do they do that? One can’t just say that and somehow it happens. A coach’s son has the guidance of the coach father or mother who understands the hockey system, but most parent/kids are just living their lives, going to work. I’m trying to give them some insight in a changing world.

Fred,

I have to agree with others here. Many of your posts have been very objective and entertaining - but you're way over the top now. If you had three kids playing A hockey in squirts, peewees & bantams, in every association in the state, I'd still think you're out of your mind with this little game.

Kids need parents, not managers. Parents do their best to offer opportunities for success and for life lessons - the variables involved for each individual child and family are countless and do not fit into any neat little formulas.

There are no right and no wrong answers here. You can't even begin with a goal that everyone would accept! If it's to play HS hockey? That's easy - move to Northfield! For most of us, it goes beyond that - community, life lessons, development for future opportunity, FUN, etc. etc. and if a kid "fails" to move on to the next level, the lesson should be that there is ALWAYS a place to play and enjoy it.

Please go back to watching games and offering your opinions re. talent. You're good at that!

Jimbo99 wrote:Fred,

I have to agree with others here. Many of your posts have been very objective and entertaining - but you're way over the top now. If you had three kids playing A hockey in squirts, peewees & bantams, in every association in the state, I'd still think you're out of your mind with this little game.

Kids need parents, not managers. Parents do their best to offer opportunities for success and for life lessons - the variables involved for each individual child and family are countless and do not fit into any neat little formulas.

There are no right and no wrong answers here. You can't even begin with a goal that everyone would accept! If it's to play HS hockey? That's easy - move to Northfield! For most of us, it goes beyond that - community, life lessons, development for future opportunity, FUN, etc. etc. and if a kid "fails" to move on to the next level, the lesson should be that there is ALWAYS a place to play and enjoy it.

Please go back to watching games and offering your opinions re. talent. You're good at that!

Jimbo99, at the core I believe we agree on parents and kids. I can understand your perspective that this is thread not worth doing. I think it is because it is becoming a different world in high schools.

I would ask you to consider why there are 344 high schools in a 10 mile radius of zip code 55416. Under normal circumstances, I would have rattled off 4 or 5 beginning with St. Louis Park. I still wonder about the 344 number, but even if it is a third, it speaks to opportunity for the kid to do exactly what you are saying to explore community, life lessons and future opportunities.

This not about a kid moving to Northfield because he can play hockey there. To be honest, Jimbo99, I suspect you made a number of Northfield people mad. Beside, I like their "funky" rink, if only the people would sit down and watch the game there.

As I promised the following is the first set of data about the Lake Conference schools. The following talks about enrollment sizes and other things.

The enrollment sizes below are for grades 9-12 of each Lake Conference School, but remember some schools have a middle school (ISD #196 schools such as Rosemount) and others have Junior High schools such as Burnsville. That means Rosemount (1978 students) will have most of the 1978 students in the high school. Burnsville with 2984 students will have less in grades 10-12 in a single school.

The point is a high school in not necessary a single building anymore. All schools list the total number of kids 9-12 because under current evaluation standards such as “no child left behind” they have to base the high school’s performance on grades 9-12.

Also note that an Independent School District (ISD) may offer special schools that one can go to when they reach a certain grade. ISD #196 has the “Zoo School” or school of environmental studies that is open to anyone who is attending an ISD #196 high school at a certain grade level. Burnsville high school has bought an old shopping mall (Diamond Head) and uses it for their senior class only. The lower level is a senior (as in over 60) center which results in the building having an odd combination of seniors.

One thing hockey does that is different from other sports is that it is a sport that a player has to play consistently to keep competitive. By that, I don’t mean everyday of the year, but consistently over each year. Not any kid can just strap on skates and grab a stick and tryout for high school. That is important to understand that when looking at the schools number of students. The numbers really apply to Joe’s ability to adapt in the classroom.

In sports not as demanding in commitment as hockey, there will be organized youth teams, but that does not prevent any kid from trying out. The point is a large student population commonly generates a large number of kids trying out for a sport. Hockey is limited to the kids that have been playing the sport through the system. This puts Joe in the same situation as a kid from any of the associations that support the Lake Conference Schools. The problem Joe will have in open enrolling is getting to know the kids and the coaches, but he already may know them through summer hockey activities.

Joe or any of these kids have one advantage that high schools and coaches do not have. They can choose where to play the game. But once the choice is made, they have to play the school and coach’s game. On the other hand, the high schools and coaches have to compete more and more for those players. This happening to high schools, not because of hockey, but because of the trend to smaller “high schools” that offer choice. The high schools in the Lake conference don’t “emphasis” hockey, but other high schools do because there is a growing awareness that a successful hockey team can be an attraction to other students. Remember, when your kid open enrolls, the school he enrolls in gets additional state aid money (about $5,000 a year, but I would like someone to verify this).

This next point I am not sure of, but it is worth trying to understand. “No child left behind” is about to kick into penalty phases for some local high schools. Under this federal law, a school in its third year on the list of “being deficient” cannot not stop students from open enrolling in another school and no penalties can be applied (at least that’s my belief). If the school does not hit the mark in the fourth year (this coming year for some) it could force the high school to shut down (no school) until they have an approved go forward plan implemented. Some may miss the mark and enter into a third year phase where the open enrollment kicks in. All this is based on testing the schools which occurs every year. Ever wonder why the school administrators and teachers pan “no child left behind”. It forces the school to evaluate itself for performance and penalizes them for under performing constantly. To my knowledge, no Lake Conference school is in this situation.

The following list the Lake Conference schools by size in grades 9-12. Remember, not all high schools are a single large school when looking at these numbers. After each school, I have listed the number of students attending in 07-08 and a comment looking at the maturity of the community and if new schools are planned. A mature community means that the school population has peaked and likely to drop in the next 5 years.

1. Eden Prairie 3099-Still growing. Is there a new high school and when will it open?
2. Burnsville 2984-Mature community that kept a single high school in a single ISD
3. Chaska 2426-Still growing. Is there a new high school and when will it open?
4. Eagan 2351-Community still being developed, but should slow, part of ISD #196
5. Eastview 2211-Developed and part of ISD #196
6. Apple Valley 2180-Developed and part of ISD #196
7. Rosemount 1978 Community with the most undeveloped land, part of ISD #196
8. Jefferson 1676-Mature community, school population decreasing, part of ISD 271
9. Lakeville North 1674-Community being developed, part of ISD #194
10. Lakeville South 1670-Community being developed, part of ISD #194
11. Kennedy 1483-Mature community, school population decreasing, part of ISD 271

How would this work for Joe? If Joe were interested in the environment, then perhaps enrolling in an ISD #196 high school would be a path for him to develop interest in work. That could focus his choice. Another potential path is attending a school that will split will likely provide an opportunity to play as the student population shifts in either school.

More high school data coming in the next post, Monday or Tuesday of next week.

Old posts but they needed a response;
*whatthe is right on his post.
*OE is open Enrollment and can be done at any time with a few restrictions. There is no athletic penalty for OE prior to the first day of 9th grade.
*JV hockey suffers from the preception that it is B hockey and parents and kids who have never played B hockey are, for lack of a better term, insulted that they are on a B team as they haven't been in a few years if ever. However High School is 3 years, not 2 like youth. The size and strength issues keep some kids from really getting hurt, honestly your kid may be a great bantam at 5'9" 135 lbs but that size will get him hurt in Varsity hockey because there will be a defenseman who's 6"2 220lbs and bench presses 285 for a warm up, that's life. The JV programs at bigger schools are made up primarily of former Bantam A players, very very few kids go straight from Bantam A to Varsity players as Sophomores. As a long time HS and youth official I can say that without a doubt big school JV teams are better than their Bantam A teams.

frederick61 wrote:Jimbo99, at the core I believe we agree on parents and kids. I can understand your perspective that this is thread not worth doing. I think it is because it is becoming a different world in high schools.

I would ask you to consider why there are 344 high schools in a 10 mile radius of zip code 55416. Under normal circumstances, I would have rattled off 4 or 5 beginning with St. Louis Park. I still wonder about the 344 number, but even if it is a third, it speaks to opportunity for the kid to do exactly what you are saying to explore community, life lessons and future opportunities.

This not about a kid moving to Northfield because he can play hockey there. To be honest, Jimbo99, I suspect you made a number of Northfield people mad. Beside, I like their "funky" rink, if only the people would sit down and watch the game there.

- Fact is, I believe there are a lot of good reasons to move to Northfield. And if a kid gets a better chance of playing HS hockey there? - That is not a "bad" reason in my book. It's just that there is so much more that goes into the decision. Your game is too simplistic and ultimately worthless because it is all SO based on individual experience.

I like most of what you do - just not this.

I don't care if "Joe" enrolls at Holy Angels, moves to Northfield, quits hockey and plays basketball or decides to start practicing his trombone! Life goes on...

Little Joe is going to one bitter, depressed and resentful kid when he transfers away from all his neighborhood buddies, teachers, coaches, teammates, etc. and has to hitch a ride with Mom or Dad every day to school.

Maybe you should outline the quality of the counseling services at the different Lake Conference schools?

Ok, this has been 20 minutes of my life I'll never get back.

Whatthe wrote:Little Joe is going to one bitter, depressed and resentful kid when he transfers away from all his neighborhood buddies, teachers, coaches, teammates, etc. and has to hitch a ride with Mom or Dad every day to school.

Maybe you should outline the quality of the counseling services at the different Lake Conference schools?

- illustrates the point. You can't know all that. There's just no hard and fast rule that says the best thing to do is stay in your neighborhood and see it all through! Different players, different skill levels, different associations, coaches, parents, friends, teams, values, communities, experiences, etc. etc. It's very possible to move and be happy - even happier!

Maximizing your kid's chances of playing a HS sport at a level where he can compete, is not a "bad" thing to want for your kid. It just should never be the only thing that matters. And you have to remember there are ten thousand different kids, and a hundred different ways of doing it all. None right - none wrong.

What's wrong with the EP kid mired in B-hockey that could play HS hockey in any number of nearby schools, and decides to make that move? There are lots of kids moving in and out of lots of districts every year, for a lot of reasons. They find friends.

And it's just as true that a kid can stay in town, miss the cut, and fill the "void" with any number of healthy pursuits and be fulfilled.

Fred's just bitten off more than he can chew is all - because there's just no way to quantify all the variables in these arguments.

Time to move on.

goldy313 wrote:Old posts but they needed a response;
*whatthe is right on his post.
*OE is open Enrollment and can be done at any time with a few restrictions. There is no athletic penalty for OE prior to the first day of 9th grade.
*JV hockey suffers from the preception that it is B hockey and parents and kids who have never played B hockey are, for lack of a better term, insulted that they are on a B team as they haven't been in a few years if ever. However High School is 3 years, not 2 like youth. The size and strength issues keep some kids from really getting hurt, honestly your kid may be a great bantam at 5'9" 135 lbs but that size will get him hurt in Varsity hockey because there will be a defenseman who's 6"2 220lbs and bench presses 285 for a warm up, that's life. The JV programs at bigger schools are made up primarily of former Bantam A players, very very few kids go straight from Bantam A to Varsity players as Sophomores. As a long time HS and youth official I can say that without a doubt big school JV teams are better than their Bantam A teams.

Goldy313, I appreciate the clarification of open enrollment, but I frankly get tired of educators, coaches and politicians who double speak. That comment is not aimed at you Goldy, but at the myth that open enrollment can be done at anytime. It can’t. I have looked at the form that a parent fills out. The first rule is that an open enrollment form has to be submitted to the school the kid would go to by Jan 15th of the year in which he would open enroll. That means Joe has to submit his open enrollment application by Jan 15, 2009 in order to enter class in Sept, 2009.

Second, he has to announce to his current school of his intention to open enroll prior to submitting the form. He has to state a reason and list any other schools he maybe considering for open enrollment on the form he sends to the new school. The new school has to respond (accept/reject) by Feb 9. If they reject, there is a section on the form where they check the reason, one of four reasons.

You cannot open enroll at anytime. For Joe, he has the time between now and Jan 15 of next year if he wants to play hockey in someway at the new school. But even if he wants to play association hockey as a ninth grader (second year bantam) and tryout for varsity as a sophomore, he can’t wait until his sophomore year (Jan 15th) because Joe would not be allowed to tryout for hockey in his sophomore year at the new school.

I appreciate the size point, but not all high school players are that size. In the Lake conference, I doubt that you find large numbers of over 6 foot, 220 hockey players. To me, most bantam kids are entering their sophomore year at the end of their bantam play and will be trying out for the first time in high school.