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Thank you, Puck...I knew someone would appreciate that little snippet of soap-boxery.

rainier wrote:

Ogie wrote:A post to "chunk up", as they say in the NLP (Google it) world...

This just shows ta go ya that when you live in the world of markets you shop around and buy what you want...And if you live by what gubbamint has to offer, you take what you get.

Back in the 60s and 70s, the academic excellence migrated away from places like Central, Edison and Johnson, out to places like Bloomington, Burnsville and Mounds View....And the athletics pretty much followed.

Now that the academic mediocrity, fostered by the nature of paternalistic political bureaucracy, has largely turned the suburban schools into drug infested centers of indoctrination and political correctness, the parents who can muster even the most marginal of economic circumstances are sending their kids to fee-for-service (private, if you will) schools...And the athletics have followed.

Even though this is not a political message forum, the politics of having one set of schools run by politicians and another set of schools being governed by free market economics is the 500 lb gorilla in the room.

/rant

Have enrollments at private schools increased? Or have they just put more money and emphasis on their athletic programs?

And urban sprawl is/was driven by people wanting to escape a "paternalistic political bureaucracy"? Not buying it.

I didn't know Minnetonka, Eden Prairie, and Edina have turned into "drug infested centers of indoctrination and political correctness." I thought they were actually good schools.

If you were aiming to win the most idiotic post in history award, that one has to be considered one of the favorites.

Idiotic? Keep the name calling on the shelf or this thread will be locked, rainier.

As for the post, it actually bears some truth.

rainier wrote:

Ogie wrote:A post to "chunk up", as they say in the NLP (Google it) world...

This just shows ta go ya that when you live in the world of markets you shop around and buy what you want...And if you live by what gubbamint has to offer, you take what you get.

Back in the 60s and 70s, the academic excellence migrated away from places like Central, Edison and Johnson, out to places like Bloomington, Burnsville and Mounds View....And the athletics pretty much followed.

Now that the academic mediocrity, fostered by the nature of paternalistic political bureaucracy, has largely turned the suburban schools into drug infested centers of indoctrination and political correctness, the parents who can muster even the most marginal of economic circumstances are sending their kids to fee-for-service (private, if you will) schools...And the athletics have followed.

Even though this is not a political message forum, the politics of having one set of schools run by politicians and another set of schools being governed by free market economics is the 500 lb gorilla in the room.

/rant

Have enrollments at private schools increased? Or have they just put more money and emphasis on their athletic programs?

And urban sprawl is/was driven by people wanting to escape a "paternalistic political bureaucracy"? Not buying it.

I didn't know Minnetonka, Eden Prairie, and Edina have turned into "drug infested centers of indoctrination and political correctness." I thought they were actually good schools.

If you were aiming to win the most idiotic post in history award, that one has to be considered one of the favorites.

If the privates pushed more money into athletics at the expense of education, who would send their kids to Breck or BSM for the education?

Edina and Minnetonka still have highly desirable communities to live in, so their schools systems reflect that, while inner ring 'burb programs like Richfield and Roseville (Kellogg & Ramsey) have pretty much imploded.

Urban sprawl is irrelevant non sequitur.

Nice touch with the ad homenim attack on me personally.

rainier wrote:

Nostalgic Nerd wrote:

rainier wrote: Or it could be that STA can accumulate so many top players from the surrounding communities that 70% of their roster is good enough to play in the Elite League while Hermantown will have 2 or 3 Elite players, all from one legitimately A-sized community.

STA wanted it more than Hermantown? Please. Who's likely to be more fired up, the small school looking to take down the private bully or the multi-title winning private who gets more criticism than praise after winning? STA had superior depth and just took over as the games went on, simple as that.

It's not hatred, it's contempt. Keep defending metro private schools being in Class A, it's an easy way for other posters to know who the morons are.

Sure it's hatred. You're already drawing conclusions that I support STA sticking in A. Never said I did. I said in all things being equal on the ice, as in a one-goal in which the victor came back from three goals down, twice, I appreciate the way they came back and won, irregardless of public or private connection. It's hatred because you draw these analogies about one team being the underdog who had the spark to race ahead but couldn't maintain the lead because, then, it is an unfair advantage. But never ever under any circumstances should a private be commended for winning. Or that Hermantown can only blame themselves for losing. Yeah, that hatred.

Fair enough, you don't support private schools. But I find your "STA wanted it more" theory ludicrous.

I'll also allow the hatred characterization. A private school located in a metro area of 2.5 million people celebrating like mad after repeatedly beating a public school from a town of 9,000? What's not to hate about that? You think Hermantown isn't the underdog in these matchups? You think STA doesn't have an obvious advantage over 95% of Class A schools?

I do believe a metro private school should be commended for winning Class A...once. Then it is time to opt up.

A lot of the hatred is well earned.

While Hermantown was the underdog in both of those matchups, there's a clear difference between their 2011 and 2012 losses. The former is frankly their own fault. The '06 team, especially in the final period against Marshall, yeah I'd say they wanted it more. I think it was the way they won each game in the tourney. So I have no problem commending them.

I think the overall point I'm trying to stress on is there's a difference between disagreement and wearing hatred on your sleeve as a badge of honor.

Ogie wrote:

rainier wrote:

Ogie wrote:A post to "chunk up", as they say in the NLP (Google it) world...

This just shows ta go ya that when you live in the world of markets you shop around and buy what you want...And if you live by what gubbamint has to offer, you take what you get.

Back in the 60s and 70s, the academic excellence migrated away from places like Central, Edison and Johnson, out to places like Bloomington, Burnsville and Mounds View....And the athletics pretty much followed.

Now that the academic mediocrity, fostered by the nature of paternalistic political bureaucracy, has largely turned the suburban schools into drug infested centers of indoctrination and political correctness, the parents who can muster even the most marginal of economic circumstances are sending their kids to fee-for-service (private, if you will) schools...And the athletics have followed.

Even though this is not a political message forum, the politics of having one set of schools run by politicians and another set of schools being governed by free market economics is the 500 lb gorilla in the room.

/rant

Have enrollments at private schools increased? Or have they just put more money and emphasis on their athletic programs?

And urban sprawl is/was driven by people wanting to escape a "paternalistic political bureaucracy"? Not buying it.

I didn't know Minnetonka, Eden Prairie, and Edina have turned into "drug infested centers of indoctrination and political correctness." I thought they were actually good schools.

If you were aiming to win the most idiotic post in history award, that one has to be considered one of the favorites.

If the privates pushed more money into athletics at the expense of education, who would send their kids to Breck or BSM for the education?

Edina and Minnetonka still have highly desirable communities to live in, so their schools systems reflect that, while inner ring 'burb programs like Richfield and Roseville (Kellogg & Ramsey) have pretty much imploded.

Urban sprawl is irrelevant non sequitur.

Nice touch with the ad homenim attack on me personally.

You really know a lot of Latin, color me impressed.

I don't agree with your appraisal of the current situation, that's for sure.

Private schools are hardly free market. In fact, they are highly collectivist and quite totalitarian.

Your opinion is valued. Sorry if I have offended.

nota612er wrote: While Hermantown has advantages in “recruiting” (based on HSHW definition) over a Hibbing or TRF based on its proximity to Duluth, to infer small, outstate public schools are on an equal footing to the metro privates in team assembly and ability to compete night in/night out with AA teams is just plain incorrect.

Curious if you can find where I have said anything about "equal footing" because I doubt you can. It's not something I've ever said, nor would I. They are clearly different.
That isn't what classifications are based on, nor are how schools are looked upon. If we were looking for "equal" we would have dozens of classes. Not even sure what "equal" means in this sense.

I also don't understand why there is a distinction made between metro privates and metro publics in your example. Couldn't you say that a metro public schools should have the same advantages that the private schools have?

Ultimately, the only reason we're having this conversation is because Hermantown has lost a couple games.
Three years ago, Breck came from behind to win a 1 goal game.
Two years ago St Thomas came back from starting out down by 3 to win in OT.
Last year Hermantown was overhyped, had a bad game and lost by a lot.
Had Hermantown held their lead two years ago, for example, we'd be debating who the best of the three schools is and not having the conversation we are now. This conversation comes down to the difference of a couple goals.
No one is pretending anything is more than it is, but when does it finally get to just be about what happens on the ice? If Hermantown is so disadvantaged, as so many make it seem, how are they able to do so well?

They lost to EP by 1 two years in a row, were on a 4 year winning streak over Rapids recently and do well against Cloquet regularly, in addition to doing well against other good area teams like Marshall. They have gotten 2nd in state 3 years in a row and a few years before that were one of only a select group of teams to be undefeated in a season and won state that year in 2007. If they have so many disadvantages, I'm not seeing them...

Please explain Roseau and Cloquet to me while you're at it.

defense wrote:I hate to bring up old bs...but there was a time when most people wanted Warroad out of class A..... then the private schools started winning class A and most forgot....

After this year, what is the next thing people will complain about?

rainier wrote:Private schools are hardly free market. In fact, they are highly collectivist and quite totalitarian.

Actually, private schools don't fall under totalitarianism considering they are not funded and are more "loosely" regulated by the state. Public schools fall far more under that characterization.

However, I do agree that private schools are more collectivist in modern times than what they were two decades ago.

PuckU126 wrote:

rainier wrote:

Ogie wrote:A post to "chunk up", as they say in the NLP (Google it) world...

This just shows ta go ya that when you live in the world of markets you shop around and buy what you want...And if you live by what gubbamint has to offer, you take what you get.

Back in the 60s and 70s, the academic excellence migrated away from places like Central, Edison and Johnson, out to places like Bloomington, Burnsville and Mounds View....And the athletics pretty much followed.

Now that the academic mediocrity, fostered by the nature of paternalistic political bureaucracy, has largely turned the suburban schools into drug infested centers of indoctrination and political correctness, the parents who can muster even the most marginal of economic circumstances are sending their kids to fee-for-service (private, if you will) schools...And the athletics have followed.

Even though this is not a political message forum, the politics of having one set of schools run by politicians and another set of schools being governed by free market economics is the 500 lb gorilla in the room.

/rant

Have enrollments at private schools increased? Or have they just put more money and emphasis on their athletic programs?

And urban sprawl is/was driven by people wanting to escape a "paternalistic political bureaucracy"? Not buying it.

I didn't know Minnetonka, Eden Prairie, and Edina have turned into "drug infested centers of indoctrination and political correctness." I thought they were actually good schools.

If you were aiming to win the most idiotic post in history award, that one has to be considered one of the favorites.

Idiotic? Keep the name calling on the shelf or this thread will be locked, rainier.

As for the post, it actually bears some truth.

I called his post idiotic, not him. And the best way to get this thread locked is to keep bringing up your politics.

HShockeywatcher wrote:

nota612er wrote: While Hermantown has advantages in “recruiting” (based on HSHW definition) over a Hibbing or TRF based on its proximity to Duluth, to infer small, outstate public schools are on an equal footing to the metro privates in team assembly and ability to compete night in/night out with AA teams is just plain incorrect.

Curious if you can find where I have said anything about "equal footing" because I doubt you can. It's not something I've ever said, nor would I. They are clearly different.
That isn't what classifications are based on, nor are how schools are looked upon. If we were looking for "equal" we would have dozens of classes. Not even sure what "equal" means in this sense.

I also don't understand why there is a distinction made between metro privates and metro publics in your example. Couldn't you say that a metro public schools should have the same advantages that the private schools have?

Ultimately, the only reason we're having this conversation is because Hermantown has lost a couple games.
Three years ago, Breck came from behind to win a 1 goal game.
Two years ago St Thomas came back from starting out down by 3 to win in OT.
Last year Hermantown was overhyped, had a bad game and lost by a lot.
Had Hermantown held their lead two years ago, for example, we'd be debating who the best of the three schools is and not having the conversation we are now. This conversation comes down to the difference of a couple goals.
No one is pretending anything is more than it is, but when does it finally get to just be about what happens on the ice? If Hermantown is so disadvantaged, as so many make it seem, how are they able to do so well?

They lost to EP by 1 two years in a row, were on a 4 year winning streak over Rapids recently and do well against Cloquet regularly, in addition to doing well against other good area teams like Marshall. They have gotten 2nd in state 3 years in a row and a few years before that were one of only a select group of teams to be undefeated in a season and won state that year in 2007. If they have so many disadvantages, I'm not seeing them...

Please explain Roseau and Cloquet to me while you're at it.

defense wrote:I hate to bring up old bs...but there was a time when most people wanted Warroad out of class A..... then the private schools started winning class A and most forgot....

After this year, what is the next thing people will complain about?

When STA wins a AA title?

Your comments pretty much express what I've been trying to say. Let them decide it on the ice. STA needs to opt up because they draw from an unfair pool and are winning over inferior competition, usually. But that doesn't stop me from appreciation the '06 team or the final from two years ago. I just think the hatred runs so deep in some of these people they cannot appreciate an '06 Cretin (who'd never done nothing till then) or the textbook play of '08 Hill.

Edit: I liked the job Cretin did in '09 too when they beat DE in quarters. That was pretty unexpected. Guess I always thought of Cretin hockey as something the athletes do in order to stay fit before baseball arrives. So when they won it in '06 that was pretty special. They'd had many above average teams that could compete, but nothing like '06.

rainier wrote:I called his post idiotic, not him. And the best way to get this thread locked is to keep bringing up your politics.

I agree; however, one has to bring up social and economical issues when discussing this subject in depth.

The difference is facts and opinions must be discussed civilly, which to my surprise we have done well thus far... lets keep it up!

rainier wrote:

Ogie wrote:

rainier wrote: Have enrollments at private schools increased? Or have they just put more money and emphasis on their athletic programs?

And urban sprawl is/was driven by people wanting to escape a "paternalistic political bureaucracy"? Not buying it.

I didn't know Minnetonka, Eden Prairie, and Edina have turned into "drug infested centers of indoctrination and political correctness." I thought they were actually good schools.

If you were aiming to win the most idiotic post in history award, that one has to be considered one of the favorites.

If the privates pushed more money into athletics at the expense of education, who would send their kids to Breck or BSM for the education?

Edina and Minnetonka still have highly desirable communities to live in, so their schools systems reflect that, while inner ring 'burb programs like Richfield and Roseville (Kellogg & Ramsey) have pretty much imploded.

Urban sprawl is irrelevant non sequitur.

Nice touch with the ad homenim attack on me personally.

You really know a lot of Latin, color me impressed.

I don't agree with your appraisal of the current situation, that's for sure.

Private schools are hardly free market. In fact, they are highly collectivist and quite totalitarian.

Your opinion is valued. Sorry if I have offended.

You haven't offended, you've amused.

And I value your opinion as well...In fact, you're exactly the kind of person that I appreciate in making the case for gubbamint schools that you do.

Please, continue at length....I am enthralled.

HShockeywatcher wrote: After this year, what is the next thing people will complain about?

We have lots of things;
*how weak 1AA is and how some metro team should be put in that section to make it better, never mind we're 4-2 the last two years only losing to the eventual champ but I digress....
*how all private schools need to be in 1 section, probably 1AA because they stink
*Which coach deserves to fired because he didn't play Johnny on the right line or give him enough ice time
*why the MSHSL is out of touch for penalizing kids who break the law
*why the WHL (or whatever Canadian league) is the greatest thing since the wheel
*14 pages on how bad the Luverne coach is (mostly because he beat your team)
*where Hermantown is rated...how dare you put them at #4, they're #3!!!!
*6 pages on why Lourdes is the best team EVER
*How great XYZ #24 is, he's not me but my screen name is XYZ24rules

Where have you been to think STA going to AA will end the complaining?

goldy313 wrote:

HShockeywatcher wrote: After this year, what is the next thing people will complain about?

We have lots of things;
*how weak 1AA is and how some metro team should be put in that section to make it better, never mind we're 4-2 the last two years only losing to the eventual champ but I digress....
*how all private schools need to be in 1 section, probably 1AA because they stink
*Which coach deserves to fired because he didn't play Johnny on the right line or give him enough ice time
*why the MSHSL is out of touch for penalizing kids who break the law
*why the WHL (or whatever Canadian league) is the greatest thing since the wheel
*14 pages on how bad the Luverne coach is (mostly because he beat your team)
*where Hermantown is rated...how dare you put them at #4, they're #3!!!!
*6 pages on why Lourdes is the best team EVER
*How great XYZ #24 is, he's not me but my screen name is XYZ24rules

Where have you been to think STA going to AA will end the complaining?

Let's beat the traffic and start these threads!

In response to the exchange between rainier and Ogie (which I will not bother to quote since it got a bit long):

I think a major source of private/public animosity in this state is the fact that Ogie's description of the rise in competition/free market in schooling in the Metro area has absolutely zero relevance to someone from a small town up north. In a small town, one school is enough to saturate the market. In a small town, there's also a lot more community buy-in; many people there graduated from the school, and school events may be the biggest thing going on in town on a given night. As a result, public schools in these towns feel like something far more intimate, and are generally less in the thralls of some distant educational bureaucratic nightmare (this isn't to say all of them are run well, but they can be a lot more responsive). In the Metro, if you don't like your public school, you just enroll in the private school down the road. Anywhere else, what you have is what there is, and your only real option short of moving is to change it from within--which can lead to much more private buy-in to public schools, creating a stronger partnership and sense of a shared mission. (Again, doesn't always work that way in practice, but it can.)

It's two different worlds, really. Places like Duluth, Rochester, and St. Cloud hover somewhere in between.

For those who think private schools shouldn't be in the MSHSL (like Shattuck), I'll give you a few arguments for why they should be:

-These forums turn into an echo chamber. All we talk about is hockey here. We forget that there are other sports, activities, or even academics at these places. When it comes down to it, these are schools, not hockey factories. I bet if you ask a random student why they go to HM, AHA, BSM, or CDH, they'll say, "Because this is my school." It's not as meticulously plotted as many on here think. Alumni will send their kids there. Parents who went to private schools send there kids there. I know my parents sent me to private school because they didn't like how the EP district moved kids around every two years. Others had bad experiences at a public middle school and thought they'd give it a try. There are plenty of reasons. I'm not saying NOBODY goes to private schools for sports, but if you looked through a roster, I bet you could find some sort of connection between most players families and the school.

What I'm trying to say is that people on here build up the differences between public and private, when, in the end, they're all just schools.

-If players leaving public programs is the main cause of the hatred, I don't think you want private schools leave the MSHSL. You want recruiting? Put them in a league where it's legal. Players could go for free because there would be no restrictions on athletic scholarships. If you're a parent and could give your child a free private school education, why wouldn't you send them? to a private school? If you're a kid and can play 75 games against top competition without leaving home, why wouldn't you go to a private school?

-Also, many public schools have open enrollment now, so the "private schools get to pick anyone in the state" notion just doesn't make any sense.


These are my thoughts and observations from my experiences. Just trying to share my perspective. I sure have learned a lot about the other point of view from the (constructive) public school posts.

karl(east) wrote:In response to the exchange between rainier and Ogie (which I will not bother to quote since it got a bit long):

I think a major source of private/public animosity in this state is the fact that Ogie's description of the rise in competition/free market in schooling in the Metro area has absolutely zero relevance to someone from a small town up north. In a small town, one school is enough to saturate the market. In a small town, there's also a lot more community buy-in; many people there graduated from the school, and school events may be the biggest thing going on in town on a given night. As a result, public schools in these towns feel like something far more intimate, and are generally less in the thralls of some distant educational bureaucratic nightmare (this isn't to say all of them are run well, but they can be a lot more responsive). In the Metro, if you don't like your public school, you just enroll in the private school down the road. Anywhere else, what you have is what there is, and your only real option short of moving is to change it from within--which can lead to much more private buy-in to public schools, creating a stronger partnership and sense of a shared mission. (Again, doesn't always work that way in practice, but it can.)

It's two different worlds, really. Places like Duluth, Rochester, and St. Cloud hover somewhere in between.

1. With current open enrollment and transfer rules, you can also "just enroll in the public school down the road" and many people do. This is a point many are missing.
The points Ogie is bringing up are parts of the reason that many are going to private schools as well. Those cannot be ignored. Ignoring them by the people in the position to make the changes is part of why things are the way they are.
Those not from the metro may not know or understand them, but telling someone their post is idiotic because it is about something foreign to you makes little sense.

2. It's two totally different worlds and no one is saying otherwise.
But there definitely are advantages to the communities, aren't there?
Ignoring all the advantages to being from a community would be quite silly. How do programs like Roseau, Warroad, and even Hermantown get success if everything everything is stacked against them as so many want us all to believe?
Ultimately, it's apples and oranges.

It's two totally different worlds. And there are other unique communities. And that is the beauty of the state tournament; communities big and small get to come together to play games for a couple days. There are David and Goliath situations and there are fun stories that come about from upsets and specific match ups, but isn't that what it's all about?

hockey247365 wrote:-Also, many public schools have open enrollment now, so the "private schools get to pick anyone in the state" notion just doesn't make any sense.

Exactly. Transfer rules and open enrollment treat public and private schools exactly the same.

Of course I root against private schools, but I don't really hate them and I don't think they should be removed from the MSHSL (although I think an all private section has merit).

What does bother me about private schools is the notion that they play by the same rules as public schools. Yes, they have to abide by MSHSL rules just as public schools do, but private schools have advantages that are inherent in their very structure.

1. Private schools have a unique ability to make themselves more attractive because they can raise money far beyond what taxes will pay for at public schools. This allows them to build facilities that many public schools can only dream of. In my hometown of Hibbing, I believe the last major referendum for any kind of significant upgrade to sports facilities was at least 20 years ago. To build new facilities at a public school, you need to essentially win an election (referendum). This is not the case at private schools.

2. Private schools can offer a commodity that has a real world cash value to potential recruits. I know not all, but many players do get scholarships from private schools. Private schools have resources not available to public schools, and they can use these to offer free tuition. A public school cannot offer to waive a kid's participation fees, pay for his hockey equipment, or give anything beyond what his family's taxes have already paid for.

Why did it take so long for the MSHSL to allow private schools in? Because private schools play by different rules.

It's fine private schools have the ability to do these things, they are private enterprises, after all, and can spend their money how they like. But to suggest that a public school is on equal footing when it comes to the ability to attract players is just plain ludicrous.

This is what stings private school fans the most: the fact that they and everyone else knows they have advantages, and when they win a title, some of the luster is lost because of it (especially in Class A). So they compensate for this by trying to convince others that public schools are in the same situation they are, so therefore everything is equal and they should get just as much respect as a Roseau or Hermantown when they win it. And it kills them that they don't get it.

It doesn't matter how or why the private schools have these advantages, what matters is that they have them.

You mean to say that the free market has distinct advantages over monopoly and forced use?

Who would have ever guessed?

karl(east) wrote:In response to the exchange between rainier and Ogie (which I will not bother to quote since it got a bit long):

I think a major source of private/public animosity in this state is the fact that Ogie's description of the rise in competition/free market in schooling in the Metro area has absolutely zero relevance to someone from a small town up north. In a small town, one school is enough to saturate the market. In a small town, there's also a lot more community buy-in; many people there graduated from the school, and school events may be the biggest thing going on in town on a given night. As a result, public schools in these towns feel like something far more intimate, and are generally less in the thralls of some distant educational bureaucratic nightmare (this isn't to say all of them are run well, but they can be a lot more responsive). In the Metro, if you don't like your public school, you just enroll in the private school down the road. Anywhere else, what you have is what there is, and your only real option short of moving is to change it from within--which can lead to much more private buy-in to public schools, creating a stronger partnership and sense of a shared mission. (Again, doesn't always work that way in practice, but it can.)

It's two different worlds, really. Places like Duluth, Rochester, and St. Cloud hover somewhere in between.

Wish I had said that.

rainier wrote:Of course I root against private schools, but I don't really hate them and I don't think they should be removed from the MSHSL (although I think an all private section has merit).

What does bother me about private schools is the notion that they play by the same rules as public schools. Yes, they have to abide by MSHSL rules just as public schools do, but private schools have advantages that are inherent in their very structure.

1. Private schools have a unique ability to make themselves more attractive because they can raise money far beyond what taxes will pay for at public schools. This allows them to build facilities that many public schools can only dream of. In my hometown of Hibbing, I believe the last major referendum for any kind of significant upgrade to sports facilities was at least 20 years ago. To build new facilities at a public school, you need to essentially win an election (referendum). This is not the case at private schools.

2. Private schools can offer a commodity that has a real world cash value to potential recruits. I know not all, but many players do get scholarships from private schools. Private schools have resources not available to public schools, and they can use these to offer free tuition. A public school cannot offer to waive a kid's participation fees, pay for his hockey equipment, or give anything beyond what his family's taxes have already paid for.

Why did it take so long for the MSHSL to allow private schools in? Because private schools play by different rules.

It's fine private schools have the ability to do these things, they are private enterprises, after all, and can spend their money how they like. But to suggest that a public school is on equal footing when it comes to the ability to attract players is just plain ludicrous.

This is what stings private school fans the most: the fact that they and everyone else knows they have advantages, and when they win a title, some of the luster is lost because of it (especially in Class A). So they compensate for this by trying to convince others that public schools are in the same situation they are, so therefore everything is equal and they should get just as much respect as a Roseau or Hermantown when they win it. And it kills them that they don't get it.

It doesn't matter how or why the private schools have these advantages, what matters is that they have them.

Bravo!

Plastic excitement... For plastic teams.

Why did it take so long for the MSHSL to allow private schools in? Because private schools play by different rules.

Then why not question the validity of "the rules" as they relate to gubbamint schools, rather than wring your hands over the fact that market-based schools have more to offer?

Ogie wrote:

Why did it take so long for the MSHSL to allow private schools in? Because private schools play by different rules.

Then why not question the validity of "the rules" as they relate to gubbamint schools, rather than wring your hands over the fact that market-based schools have more to offer?

We should question all of it.

Ogie wrote:You mean to say that the free market has distinct advantages over monopoly and forced use?

Who would have ever guessed?

Ogie want a cracker?

Original thought is allowed on this message board, you know.

Unleash the free market on all of our schools? Okay, then when some company (let's call them Educorp), comes along and starts to purchase schools, let's see what happens.

1. Educorp gets a foothold in MN schools by buying a few strategically placed schools.

2. Educorp grows large enough to offer educational services for below cost, a loss they are willing to sustain so they can undercut other schools and force them out of business.

3. Educorp becomes dominant education company in MN, and soon all other companies sell out to them instead of ending up in bankruptcy.

4. With their monopoly firmly in hand, Educorp begins to raise prices and cut services in order to increase profits. Teachers' salaries are slashed as they have no other choice of where to work. Students' educations suffer, but nothing can be done because everyone has swallowed the idea that free markets are infallible.

5. Government is eventually forced to intercede and break up the Educorp trust, and the educational system will return to how it was before, until people once again forget the lessons learned and substitute their own thinking with that which they hear on talk radio.

Theodore Roosevelt, a man whose face happens to be carved into the side of a mountain alongside Washington, Lincoln, and Jefferson, knew that a totally free market ultimately ends up in screwing the consumer and he broke up the monopolies created by the free market.

I can't think of a worse idea to apply to our entire education system.

HShockeywatcher wrote:

karl(east) wrote:In response to the exchange between rainier and Ogie (which I will not bother to quote since it got a bit long):

I think a major source of private/public animosity in this state is the fact that Ogie's description of the rise in competition/free market in schooling in the Metro area has absolutely zero relevance to someone from a small town up north. In a small town, one school is enough to saturate the market. In a small town, there's also a lot more community buy-in; many people there graduated from the school, and school events may be the biggest thing going on in town on a given night. As a result, public schools in these towns feel like something far more intimate, and are generally less in the thralls of some distant educational bureaucratic nightmare (this isn't to say all of them are run well, but they can be a lot more responsive). In the Metro, if you don't like your public school, you just enroll in the private school down the road. Anywhere else, what you have is what there is, and your only real option short of moving is to change it from within--which can lead to much more private buy-in to public schools, creating a stronger partnership and sense of a shared mission. (Again, doesn't always work that way in practice, but it can.)

It's two different worlds, really. Places like Duluth, Rochester, and St. Cloud hover somewhere in between.

1. With current open enrollment and transfer rules, you can also "just enroll in the public school down the road" and many people do. This is a point many are missing.
The points Ogie is bringing up are parts of the reason that many are going to private schools as well. Those cannot be ignored. Ignoring them by the people in the position to make the changes is part of why things are the way they are.
Those not from the metro may not know or understand them, but telling someone their post is idiotic because it is about something foreign to you makes little sense.

2. It's two totally different worlds and no one is saying otherwise.
But there definitely are advantages to the communities, aren't there?
Ignoring all the advantages to being from a community would be quite silly. How do programs like Roseau, Warroad, and even Hermantown get success if everything everything is stacked against them as so many want us all to believe?
Ultimately, it's apples and oranges.

It's two totally different worlds. And there are other unique communities. And that is the beauty of the state tournament; communities big and small get to come together to play games for a couple days. There are David and Goliath situations and there are fun stories that come about from upsets and specific match ups, but isn't that what it's all about?

hockey247365 wrote:-Also, many public schools have open enrollment now, so the "private schools get to pick anyone in the state" notion just doesn't make any sense.

Exactly. Transfer rules and open enrollment treat public and private schools exactly the same.

Right, a Bemidji kid is going to open enroll to ????
Intl Falls to ????
Crookston???? to East Grand or Red Lake Falls??? You still have a 50-60 mile drive every day.

Yup, exactly the same.

rainier wrote:

Ogie wrote:You mean to say that the free market has distinct advantages over monopoly and forced use?

Who would have ever guessed?

Ogie want a cracker?

Original thought is allowed on this message board, you know.

Unleash the free market on all of our schools? Okay, then when some company (let's call them Educorp), comes along and starts to purchase schools, let's see what happens.

1. Educorp gets a foothold in MN schools by buying a few strategically placed schools.

2. Educorp grows large enough to offer educational services for below cost, a loss they are willing to sustain so they can undercut other schools and force them out of business.

3. Educorp becomes dominant education company in MN, and soon all other companies sell out to them instead of ending up in bankruptcy.

4. With their monopoly firmly in hand, Educorp begins to raise prices and cut services in order to increase profits. Teachers' salaries are slashed as they have no other choice of where to work. Students' educations suffer, but nothing can be done because everyone has swallowed the idea that free markets are infallible.

5. Government is eventually forced to intercede and break up the Educorp trust, and the educational system will return to how it was before, until people once again forget the lessons learned and substitute their own thinking with that which they hear on talk radio.

Theodore Roosevelt, a man whose face happens to be carved into the side of a mountain alongside Washington, Lincoln, and Jefferson, knew that a totally free market ultimately ends up in screwing the consumer and he broke up the monopolies created by the free market.

I can't think of a worse idea to apply to our entire education system.

The private school system works fine,
when you don't have to take care of ALL the kids out there.

But if you can afford it, use it.

The problem a lot of us have is there are enough holier than thou private schoolers to make us despise all of you.
So add a class to the freshman curriculum, humility.

And winning or losing a hockey game means nothing. We understand what we have here in the outstate. We cheer loud when we have that exceptional group of athletes. And we cheer loud when we get our ass handed to us.