The ADM Question

Quasar · Post by **Quasar** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:46 pm

HockeyDad41 wrote:Devil's advocate says: "Assuming that the format is similar to the one existing alternative and they use 80-90 minute ice times for practice, plus the fact that the associations will have most all of the prime ice hours, how do you sell the idea that the players will more than likely not get to bed before midnight several nights a week during the school year?"

No one said it would easy. We are talking about parents, and kids that want more. They will deal with it. I'm not hauling any kids around now, but years ago in our small association the only way we could get good competition was to to drive to the cities.
I've spend many nights heading home with a load of sleeping kids in the back of the wagon. And that was after hosing down the ice.

I think that the kids out side the beltway are still doing the same today
No outside ice any more . That's really too bad. .

It's all about the parents, and it will be until the kid is 15 years old, at which time Daddy and Mommies influence is diminished to a great decree, unless they slide up the ladder to the High School booster club.

The tough kids handle it, the others do something else. Really not that big a deal until Bantams. After the last year of bantam there are few choices for good players. That's why I said in a previous post some program for High School prep is needed night now.

Otherwise it's Tier 111 Juniors, or Junior gold. neither are very good choices for a promising 15 year old as far as I'm concerned.

Every thing is cool for you right now with the choices you have . That's good. The guys a few years ahead of you didn't have those choices, and still don't if their kid is a Bantam. All we're trying to do is make sure there are some choices for you and your kid when you get there.

If your lucky, and your kid breaks out of the pack when he's 14, you'll be willing to do whatever it takes. Could be easy with a lot of choices, or.. could be what we have now, it's up to you...

Quasar · Post by **Quasar** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:05 pm

frederick61 wrote:
Quasar wrote:
HockeyDad41 wrote: Can those 5 centers exist without the creation of new ice sheets? I don't want to drive 30 miles for ice at 9:30pm.
You may not want to drive 30 miles at 9:30. I'll bet some others woulld.
As for the other part of your post...

The National Sports Center Blaine Mn....... 8, count them, 8 sheets of ice. Hard to get to?? Distance in miles

Downtown Minneapolis .....19
Downtown St Paul ..............19.5
Edina....................................25
Stillwater .............................30
White Bear lake ...................20
North Branch .......................32.3 ...I think BO could handle this!
Forest Lake .........................16.5
New Brighton .......................8.8
Mounds View.........................7.5
Fridley.....................................8.3
Plymouth ...............................24.7
Woodbury .............................29.3

A lot of big time hockey players within 32.3 miles of 8 sheets of ice in one place. Not to hard to get your head around that if your looking for an alternative.. Some one home basing at the NSC could run down to Edina ( 30 mi. about 25 min )to scrimmage the Made without even breaking a sweat.

This stuff is not difficult...
Currently, the Super Rink sells the sheets for the winter season to local associations. Irondale uses Rink 1 as its home. I believe Moundsview has at least two of the rinks. Blaine had a rink (Rink 7?) last year. Bethel College may also have own the winter ice last year. I don't know if they are long term agreements, but I suspect some are.

Yes, your right. Prime time ice is probably out of the question. You can look at the distances and substitute for the single shees spread out all over within a 40 mile radius of downtown Minneapolis. Any thing up to and including 10:00 pm will work for the driven. Ice is not the problem!! that's just a straw man. The off hours will deter quite a few. But that's ok because they are not the people we are talking about.

I heard that Mounds View is moving to the new rink out by Tousley Ford. Have you heard anything? If so they will have to wiggle out of their contract. Could be an opportunity for some one to pick up some prime time ice. Like maybe a bantam prep league ?????

MnMade-4-Life · Post by **MnMade-4-Life** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:24 pm

frederick61 wrote:
Quasar wrote:
HockeyDad41 wrote: Can those 5 centers exist without the creation of new ice sheets? I don't want to drive 30 miles for ice at 9:30pm.
You may not want to drive 30 miles at 9:30. I'll bet some others woulld.
As for the other part of your post...

The National Sports Center Blaine Mn....... 8, count them, 8 sheets of ice. Hard to get to?? Distance in miles

Downtown Minneapolis .....19
Downtown St Paul ..............19.5
Edina....................................25
Stillwater .............................30
White Bear lake ...................20
North Branch .......................32.3 ...I think BO could handle this!
Forest Lake .........................16.5
New Brighton .......................8.8
Mounds View.........................7.5
Fridley.....................................8.3
Plymouth ...............................24.7
Woodbury .............................29.3

A lot of big time hockey players within 32.3 miles of 8 sheets of ice in one place. Not to hard to get your head around that if your looking for an alternative.. Some one home basing at the NSC could run down to Edina ( 30 mi. about 25 min )to scrimmage the Made without even breaking a sweat.

This stuff is not difficult...
Currently, the Super Rink sells the sheets for the winter season to local associations. Irondale uses Rink 1 as its home. I believe Moundsview has at least two of the rinks. Blaine had a rink (Rink 7?) last year. Bethel College may also have own the winter ice last year. I don't know if they are long term agreements, but I suspect some are.

Rink 1 - Coon Rapids
2 - Blaine
3 - MASC/Centennial
4 - Ramsey County (I think this is Moundsview's home rink
5 - Bethel/Irondale
6 - Herb Brooks/USA womens(?)
7 - Blaine
8 - Centennial

http://www.nscsports.org/facilities/superrink/index.stm

Winter ice in the super rink is not as available as you may think... not saying, just saying. Sure you could find enough off-peak ice to field a couple teams, but definately not a league. Even if you throw in Fogerty/Andover/Blaine sheets you'd be hard pressed to find enough in that area.

Write the check for Columbia Arena and do it there, those sheets have been dry for quite some time.

MrBoDangles · Post by **MrBoDangles** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:15 pm

There are tons of unused ice hours in the north metro. Even Schwans has plenty of prime hours if you call a month or so in advance.... These WOULD be planned events.

I don't know much about the south metro, but there has to be plenty. Isn't the Waconia rink barely breathing because they can't sell any ice?

Would be more of a one time a week during the season thing and then more loaded the two months after(district teams) and two months before(elite type league). Just ideas and it would be optional.

MrBoDangles · Post by **MrBoDangles** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:32 pm

There's one District 10 association that has nothing scheduled on any Sundays during the season.

HockeyDad41 · Post by **HockeyDad41** » Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:53 pm

Well what's the hold up then?

old goalie85 · Post by **old goalie85** » Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:34 am

Someone said Buff. has ice. I think with planning alot would work. .........Keek your eyes on Ree-nats I think they are prepin...

Quasar · Post by **Quasar** » Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:44 am

How about this. An association waivers in kids from the district to form teams at the peewee and bantam levels. This team then continues to play in the summer season as a AAA team. Spring and fall tryouts for kids that are registered within the District . The team is now playing year around at a more sane level than most of the summer teams, because they don't have to get it all done each summer and they have an ironclad roster. Maybe something like three summer tournaments. Stars and Stripes, The Subway and the Caribou Cup.

Now you have a District team operating within the Minnesota model, using the Summer AAA as part of their program. If one association in each district were chosen to be the "District Team" There would be more than enough teams to hold their own State tournament Let's call them AA. Perhaps some kind of lottery to determine which association hosts the district team. National exposure as the D10 Eagles during the summer., and true tier 1 level hockey during the winter season.

This seems to me to be a compromise that could work. Keeps everything we now have in place while adding the next level to Minnesota Hockey.I think at the Bantam level these teams would provide everything that the USA midget teams offer. The Junior Gold program could then absorb the kids that decide against High School, making that program something more than recreational.

SE Coach got me thinking about the possibilities of merging the winter and summer programs. Any time you raise the level of hockey at the high school age you will run into the resistance of the system. But If BO is right, and I think he is, the quality of the highest level of hockey Minnesota can produce will not be limited by the Minnesota High School League. Both can exist side by side. If there is a Junior Gold Tier 1 league, high schools will still have the state tournament. If the talent level is competitive no one except High school hockey purists will notice the difference.

I've come all the way from "No Way" to perhaps... thanks to everyone posting to this thread. What does everyone think about this idea??

MrBoDangles · Post by **MrBoDangles** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:02 pm

HockeyDad41 wrote:Well what's the hold up then?

People that think that change will never happen.

old goalie85 · Post by **old goalie85** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:09 pm

Q- You the man!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quasar · Post by **Quasar** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:17 pm

No Political Connections wrote:
MrBoDangles wrote:
HockeyDad41 wrote:Well what's the hold up then?
People that think that change will never happen.
And the crazy thing is that people like Quasar and I and some others are pushing for what is going to happen whether or not MN Hockey wants it to happen and that is change. It is coming, the foundations have been laid all over the country and they are headed this way. People can put their heads in the sand and wish upon a star for it to not happen but it will. The biggest question is whether or not MN Hockey wants to be involved in it and controlling it or if they want to be shoved off to the side and left out. If association hockey is such a good idea it would be happening in some places other than in MN and it is not. That should tell the MN Hockey something. They keep throwing the whole history of D1 and etc at us and say that over the years it has worked. It did, it does not now for much longer. My biggest fear is that hockey in MN is going to degrade to the summer hockey model in which we have teams getting blown out 32 - 0 and then we have to try to put it back together. I simply want some controlled changes made that leaves the adults in charge.

Schwan AAA Advertising winter hockey

Choice league offering 40 games and three tournaments in the winter season

Old Goalie says Reebok Nationals may make a move this winter

Now Walser the first serious sponsored team shows up at Minnesota made

I know of another AAA team that is thinking seriously about offering winter hockey. I am not at liberty to name them at this time....

The target date for the change over is the winter of 2013....

Somebody better start thinking of a better way if they want any thing resembling association hockey to still be here in three years.

Hey OG.......

MrBoDangles · Post by **MrBoDangles** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:29 pm

MrBoDangles wrote:I'ts time to wake up for those that think the MN model has nothing to worry about. Remember that the choice leagues turned away hundreds of kids. What would happen to MN Hockey if there were five more centers like the made?

MN Hockey is just like the bulk of the posters on here.. They think everything is great and nothing will change.

In District 10 there are top notch programs that might not be able to field A teams because their top 3-5 players will be playing in the peewee choice league........ and this is happening way up in D10..

MN Hockey is currently getting pounded in a battle that they seem to not know that they are in. It's time to make the MN model one that nobody would want to leave....... More options.

- Leave a morning or weeknight open for pooled teams to play extra games. Like a Sunday afternoon - back to back - one hour rolled games. OPTIONAL for those that want more.

- Or it could be pooled district teams(Quasar) that compete against each other on a certain day. Elite through C level?? The regular season could be followed by a short district pooled team season that could end with a district tournament state championship..

- District teams that would compete in the national scene. Wouldn't that be a great thing to see?

- Fall elite league for the association levels.... They figured out they needed this at the high school level because of the lack of competition during the season. Why not have it for the younger kids?

* These are only ideas

You would obviously need to be a part of association Hockey to be involved. I know that I would love to see my kids have some type of options like these. T he alternative is Mn quickly becoming a privatized market.

Thanks Q! White belly is now a red belly..

It's time for Minnesota Hockey to push up their sleeves.

scrapiron · Post by **scrapiron** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:12 pm

They tried that with Bernie and they are going to lose that case.

Quasar · Post by **Quasar** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:50 am

No Political Connections wrote:
scrapiron wrote:They tried that with Bernie and they are going to lose that case.
MN Hockey is counting on USA Hockey to back them up on this deal and to try to get USA Hockey to help them preserve association hockey. What they don't realize is that USA Hockey is gonna dump them when they are no longer able to come through with the goods that USA Hockey wants. USA Hockey has no loyalty what so ever to MN Hockey and the proof of that is how USA Hockey reacted when MN Hockey got SD and ND to keep the age thing going. Sure, you can do your own ages, you just can't come to our tourneys with your teams unless you meet our guidelines. There is no way that MN Hockey takes this to court, they lose before they get out of the gate, monopolies always do. Smartest thing MN Hockey can do is to wake up and smell the coffee and get busy trying to get ahead of the rolling ball. It sounds like they have about a year to figure it out.

I think you have it right. One way or another Minnesota winter teams will become part of the National scene. We can figure out how to make that happen within the current structure or not.

USA hockey has no reason to turn down anyone. Beyond just the good business practice of taking your money, they are probably legally bound to accept anyone for membership.

greybeard58 · Post by **greybeard58** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 10:19 am

Q, You are right USA Hockey does not want to loose the money Mn Hockey generates for them. On the other comment a tier I team has to be registered through Mn Hockey to be a Minnesota based team. Even Shattuck is not a separate affiliate agreement,they have agreements with Faribault Youth Hockey to field teams,and that agreement also had to have the approval of the Mn Hockey board.

If anyone is unsure of this, read the affiliate agreement in both the USA Hockey annual guide which is with Mn Hockey and USA Hockey and the affiliate agreement in the Mn Hockey handbook which is between Mn Hockey and the associations.

spin-o-rama · Post by **spin-o-rama** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:08 am

No Political Connections wrote:
greybeard58 wrote:Q, You are right USA Hockey does not want to loose the money Mn Hockey generates for them. On the other comment a tier I team has to be registered through Mn Hockey to be a Minnesota based team. Even Shattuck is not a separate affiliate agreement,they have agreements with Faribault Youth Hockey to field teams,and that agreement also had to have the approval of the Mn Hockey board.

If anyone is unsure of this, read the affiliate agreement in both the USA Hockey annual guide which is with Mn Hockey and USA Hockey and the affiliate agreement in the Mn Hockey handbook which is between Mn Hockey and the associations.
So if MN Hockey drags their feet on the deal can he become an affiliate of a program in WI and home base them at MM still?

The Fire already practices at MM.

Bernie tried to get an affiliate agreement with MH a few years ago. They turned him down. He has hardly given up. If you can't join 'em, beat 'em.

Quasar · Post by **Quasar** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:14 am

greybeard58 wrote:Q, You are right USA Hockey does not want to loose the money Mn Hockey generates for them. On the other comment a tier I team has to be registered through Mn Hockey to be a Minnesota based team. Even Shattuck is not a separate affiliate agreement,they have agreements with Faribault Youth Hockey to field teams,and that agreement also had to have the approval of the Mn Hockey board.

If anyone is unsure of this, read the affiliate agreement in both the USA Hockey annual guide which is with Mn Hockey and USA Hockey and the affiliate agreement in the Mn Hockey handbook which is between Mn Hockey and the associations.

Rules can be changed. The majority in Minnesota were against the checking rule. How did that work out?

I'm afraid if the majority of Minnesota hockey players decide on something new (Not better) USA hockey will re-write the agreement in a heart beat. Minnesota is going to join the rest of the hockey world. It's up to the people involved now to decide what that's going to look like.

Quasar · Post by **Quasar** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:20 am

spin-o-rama wrote:
No Political Connections wrote:
greybeard58 wrote:Q, You are right USA Hockey does not want to loose the money Mn Hockey generates for them. On the other comment a tier I team has to be registered through Mn Hockey to be a Minnesota based team. Even Shattuck is not a separate affiliate agreement,they have agreements with Faribault Youth Hockey to field teams,and that agreement also had to have the approval of the Mn Hockey board.

If anyone is unsure of this, read the affiliate agreement in both the USA Hockey annual guide which is with Mn Hockey and USA Hockey and the affiliate agreement in the Mn Hockey handbook which is between Mn Hockey and the associations.
So if MN Hockey drags their feet on the deal can he become an affiliate of a program in WI and home base them at MM still?
The Fire already practices at MM.

Bernie tried to get an affiliate agreement with MH a few years ago. They turned him down. He has hardly given up. If you can't join 'em, beat 'em.

This is not about Bernie....

spin-o-rama · Post by **spin-o-rama** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:07 pm

No Political Connections wrote: He(Bernie) will beat MN Hockey on this deal, I think that lawsuit that was filed against him that he won was the tie breaker and now there is no looking back for him, he is off and running.

What lawsuit did MH file against Bernie that he won?
There is the lawsuit he filed against D6 & MH. He is looking good, but it is definitely not over.

frederick61 · Post by **frederick61** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:54 pm

spin-o-rama wrote:
No Political Connections wrote: He(Bernie) will beat MN Hockey on this deal, I think that lawsuit that was filed against him that he won was the tie breaker and now there is no looking back for him, he is off and running.
What lawsuit did MH file against Bernie that he won?
There is the lawsuit he filed against D6 & MH. He is looking good, but it is definitely not over.

Bernie owns Minnesota Made Ice Arena and it appears he has made a business decision to go with an internal "choice league" and to focus his arena prime time hours in the winter on the "choice league". That has to have some effect on the AAA Tier I hockey he has been running. I suspect that this is a pure business decision because the choice league costs each kid $2100 per year (and no travel) and the AAA Tier I hockey cost over $10,000 per year (and expensive travel all over the US).

It would be a leap of fate, to me, to believe that this business decision should panic Minnesota Hockey because other potential AAA Tier I hockey teams would be formed (at $10,000 per kid) and drive out Minnesota Hockey (I refuse to equate USA Hockey Tier II community hockey to Minnesota Hockey).

The result of this business decision appears to move Minnesota Made away from the AAA Tier I approach. It also appears to me that the "choice league" was behind Bernie's decision to file suit against D6 (located in Edina) because a favorable result of the suit would allow kids to play D6 hockey and to play in the "choice league".

Quasar · Post by **Quasar** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 3:22 pm

frederick61 wrote:
spin-o-rama wrote:
No Political Connections wrote: He(Bernie) will beat MN Hockey on this deal, I think that lawsuit that was filed against him that he won was the tie breaker and now there is no looking back for him, he is off and running.
What lawsuit did MH file against Bernie that he won?
There is the lawsuit he filed against D6 & MH. He is looking good, but it is definitely not over.
Bernie owns Minnesota Made Ice Arena and it appears he has made a business decision to go with an internal "choice league" and to focus his arena prime time hours in the winter on the "choice league". That has to have some effect on the AAA Tier I hockey he has been running. I suspect that this is a pure business decision because the choice league costs each kid $2100 per year (and no travel) and the AAA Tier I hockey cost over $10,000 per year (and expensive travel all over the US).

It would be a leap of fate, to me, to believe that this business decision should panic Minnesota Hockey because other potential AAA Tier I hockey teams would be formed (at $10,000 per kid) and drive out Minnesota Hockey (I refuse to equate USA Hockey Tier II community hockey to Minnesota Hockey).

The result of this business decision appears to move Minnesota Made away from the AAA Tier I approach. It also appears to me that the "choice league" was behind Bernie's decision to file suit against D6 (located in Edina) because a favorable result of the suit would allow kids to play D6 hockey and to play in the "choice league".

As I understand it the law suit is a federal anti trust suit. I think this means that Minnesota, or any one else, cannot have a monopoly .
As far as the $10,000.00 per parent. Not necessarily the case with a sponsor picking up a large part of the tournament/travel cost.

This would not be tier II community hockey. This will be tier 1 hockey competing with the top tier 1 sponsored teams in the country.
And I'm sure your right about it being a business decision !!

As far as Minnesota hockey panicking ..

We'll see as the other AAA teams began to follow suit..

MrBoDangles · Post by **MrBoDangles** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 3:37 pm

How about a new and improved association Hockey where you only have to spend up to 3,000(optional extras) for better Hockey.......? instead of 10,000 to 15,000? Do folks really have to travel to all parts of North America to find competition? Couldn't teams play/scrimmage older teams and have the same results? Couldn't District teams play each other and have some of the best competition out there.......?

Create options that no one would not want to be a part of.

Quasar · Post by **Quasar** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 3:42 pm

MrBoDangles wrote:How about a new and improved association Hockey where you only have to spend up to 3,000(optional extras) for better Hockey.......? instead of 10,000 to 15,000? Do folks really have to travel to all parts of North America to find competition? Couldn't teams play/scrimmage older teams and have the same results? Couldn't District teams play each other and have some of the best competition out there.......?

Create options that no one would not want to be a part of.

Your right. We have it all right here. All we need to do is make a couple of changes. You don't need to go to Detroit when the best competition in the country is in the metro.

I just don't understand why this is so hard to accept!!

frederick61 · Post by **frederick61** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 5:39 pm

Quasar wrote:
MrBoDangles wrote:How about a new and improved association Hockey where you only have to spend up to 3,000(optional extras) for better Hockey.......? instead of 10,000 to 15,000? Do folks really have to travel to all parts of North America to find competition? Couldn't teams play/scrimmage older teams and have the same results? Couldn't District teams play each other and have some of the best competition out there.......?

Create options that no one would not want to be a part of.
Your right. We have it all right here. All we need to do is make a couple of changes. You don't need to go to Detroit when the best competition in the country is in the metro.

I just don't understand why this is so hard to accept!!

I have been arguing this point for the past few years. What is the real threat to Minnesota Hockey?

Minnesota hockey is facing a new set of economics. A lot of good hockey players have been developed in the small towns in Minnesota. They need to keep their numbers up or the community interest in funding the local arena will fall and the arena closes.

With restrictions on developing our own USA based energy, the price of gasoline is driven to $4+ per gallon. The current politicians want it that way.

A typical car gets 300 miles to a tankful. A 100 mile round trip costs $15-$20. A 200 mile round trip costs $30-$40. A job in a small town does not pay much per hour and the parents have to be sensitive to their budgets unlike the folks in D.C. They will be facing tough choices and that is the real issue Minnesota Hockey has to face. How to keep the interest going in the face of tough times until our economy truly recovers.

Until then, small town America will suffer.

the_juiceman · Post by **the_juiceman** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 6:24 pm

No Political Connections wrote:
Quasar wrote:
spin-o-rama wrote: The Fire already practices at MM.

Bernie tried to get an affiliate agreement with MH a few years ago. They turned him down. He has hardly given up. If you can't join 'em, beat 'em.
This is not about Bernie....
You are right, this is not about him, per se. He is a player and it certainly looks like he has decided to come out and play but there will be others too. Walser is not the only company that is going to be willing to support a team. You know that there are benefits to sponsoring a team otherwise nobody would do it and the list of companies that do is pretty long. He will beat MN Hockey on this deal, I think that lawsuit that was filed against him that he won was the tie breaker and now there is no looking back for him, he is off and running.

All in all I think the real winners in this deal are going to be the kids and parents in MN who will soon have a choice about where they want to play hockey. No longer will kids be held hostage by a set of rules that worked "back in the day", now with choices that are open they will be able to choose what works in this day for each of them.

what about the out state teams or smaller associations that can't afford to lose there top talent--due to #'s? they lose 2-3 kids a year, eventually they don't have #'s to have a team--then more kids stop playing hockey. This seems like a plan for the top end kids with no regard for the average kid who likes to play.