1st year players at the HS level...

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 9:23 pm

So, we have 8-10 new players this year that haven't played organized hockey before. I'm curious as to if any HS programs (JV or V) still consider these kids and keep them on as participants. The days of "learn-to-skate" are long gone in many of the programs, especially the biggest/best ones obviously. I'm just curious if anyone still sees this happening. We're designating specific ice time seperate from the competitive JV & V practices to develop these players - a "Development Program", so it won't adversely impact our HS teams' practices, etc. The hope is to get these players to the point where they can skate regularly with the JV at least one day. Maybe some programs aren't blessed to have 200+ hrs of practice time each season like we are though, thus making this tough to do elsewhere? My staff has done this at other stops along the way, mostly in St. Paul. Very rewarding, but we're also working on getting more of these gals intersted prior to 7-9 years of age vs. starting in 7th-9th grade... Edited by: <A HREF=http://p100.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUserP ... ckeyfan</A> at: 10/25/05 1:58 pm

PAMESH · Post by **PAMESH** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:01 pm

Why are the 7 graders playing HS and not u14 or u12?

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:55 pm

Because we don't have a place for 1st year HS eligible skaters to go in our youth association and other areas won't take these kids, plus... they can't play for under $750 elsewhere which is a lot compared to the HS. Don't get this wrong. I'm the best advocate of youth hockey that you'll ever find. BUT - when these kids have no where to go, I'll be darned if I'm cutting them out of hockey to hold the line on no 7th & 8ths! Edited by: <A HREF=http://p100.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUserP ... ckeyfan</A> at: 10/25/05 3:56 pm

sghfan · Post by **sghfan** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 5:50 pm

With all due respect, I believe you are wrong on one point. There have to be places the girls can play U14. (And, of course, MOST 7th graders can play U12.) It wouldn't be cheap of course. $750 might be low. So I would guess the price might be the primary reason these girls aren't playing U14. If you have the resources to keep these girls and teach them to skate they are very fortunate girls.

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 6:14 pm

I would argue that no other youth association would take them on, but maybe I'm wrong? I would bet that part of it is getting to participate for reduced cost (as they might not otherwise) although IGH isn't a "poor" community I don't believe??? We are fortunate to have the resources I guess. I just don't equate keeping these kids at HS team as 7th-9th as the same as taking kids that have somewhere else to go. I never envisioned a ? about these kids participation!

PAMESH · Post by **PAMESH** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:50 pm

I am all for them playing but it seems foolish to have them on the HS team when you could list them as U12 or U14 and have them play. But if cost is the difference then what do you do? Who owns all the ice you are giving them the HS?

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:22 pm

Yes. HS coaches, etc. And thankfully this still leaves 1.5+ hrs per day for each practice (JV & V) - not sure I'd want to skate more than this with them anyway. Also, what's getting missed is that not all are U14 or U12 eligible, so by going that route you fragment the group to the point where you don't have anywhere for anyone to go. Also we're forgetting about the equipment they get too. Not sure that all youth associations outfit their teams with equipment at the highest levels??? Edited by: <A HREF=http://p100.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUserP ... ckeyfan</A> at: 10/25/05 9:47 pm

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:11 pm

I have to say that I just received the nicest offer of assistance for these new kids in an email from someone that read this thread and wanted to help. Amazing & thank you!

coachcorner · Post by **coachcorner** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 6:02 am

I agree with you ghs You also have tournament fees to pay most teams go to at least 2 if not 3 during the season. So the cost does go up even more. So the $750 maybe be low.

xk1 · Post by **xk1** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 6:43 am

All 7th graders are U12 in MN as well as 8th graders born the last half of the year. All of the points given here are good, but what does taking the 7-8th graders that ARE U12 eligable do to your U12 team? I don't think IGH has a U14 team but could they if you didn't take them? I suspect only if they co-op with a neighboring association. There are many other factors here but as I recall your origianl question was what to do with the older girls (9-12) that just showed up for hockey. I think the point the was trying to be made earlier is why are 7-8th graders displacing 9-12 graders from the JV team?

coachcorner · Post by **coachcorner** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:03 am

Yes, I understand the JV players have know where to go other than u19. So in the perfect world it would be great if all the players would stay at the u12 and u14 level until there done. Then move on to the next level. So I think this topic could go on and on and it has for years. I have been on both sides.

xk1 · Post by **xk1** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:27 am

I agree, I was just pointing out some of the other aspects of the problem. I don't think it is the job of HS to save money for middle schoolers but I also don't think HS V or even JV is the place to start to learn how to skate anymore. When girls hockey just got started I think HS was a place to start but those days are long gone. I too have been on both sides of this argument and it seems there is no right answer. Each year and each school provides its own unique set of problems. But the original question was about what to do with the older girls, not the U12-14 vs HS debate, although the two are connected. The problem may go away after the first few days of tryouts when new players see how far behind they are. My opinion is that HS is not the place to teach skating 101, every rink has beginner skating programs that are cheap. This is a better place to learn how to skate.

Rocketwrister · Post by **Rocketwrister** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:17 am

GHS- I too know of a similar problem with a high school team. 5 7th graders having to move up to the high school level due to only having a U10 team in the program. There is no way a coach can cut those players just because they are in 7th grade, with no where else to go except to the pee-wee or bantam levels and so many girls quit due to having to have to go with the boys up to those levels. It's tough...especially in a small community. What is one to do? www.rebelhockey.com

SEMetro · Post by **SEMetro** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 3:06 pm

I know many communities combine to form U12 and U14 teams. I would hope that an association would find a home for these girls if the numbers did not allow a stand alone team. Another option is to play with the boys. There are several 7th and 8th grade girls playing at the pwA and B1 levels in the metro this year and in the past. Side note: I wonder what the difference would be between a mid-level girls varsity program and a top PWA team. I know of girls that played varsity when they would not have made the PW A team. I suspect that the reverse may also be true (girls making a PW A team and not making the varsity). While playing with the boys is not a perfect solution because of potential locker room issues, these issues also exist when you combine 18 year old seniors with 7th graders in a locker room. I don't see the down side to playing 7th or 8th graders if they make the varsity team straight up. The problem is with those that will not see much playing time to help develop.

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:57 pm

All very valid points made in prior posts. My hope is to do what's right and allow these girls the opportunity to play. My hunch is that they wouldn't play in other scenarios (youth, youth co-op, boys youth, etc. - all entirely logical under normal circumstances, but this isn't normal circumstances). We're just lucky to have a place for first time skaters to go and not disrupt our HS JV & V program and hopefully we can get these kids enough skill development to one day play at the JV level at least. I don't see this as the age-old youth argument that so many discuss. This isn't about stealing kids from youth teams and decimating the youth ranks for the sake of the HS. Totally different set of circumstances. Non-experienced skaters that otherwise wouldn't be participating. Not youth team phenoms that are being taken prematurely. But... I do agree that if a youth eligible kid really is a varsity caliber player - then you really have a hard decision to make as a coach. RW above has another unique situation. I've been in that (and other...) spot(s) before too. One thing that I think many miss is that as a HS coach you are to make sure your program remains viable, but also are to look out for the well-being/development of every kid. What's hard is when you see sometimes that you can't do both these things. Has anyone ever had a situation where if they don't take youth eligible kids, that then their HS team would not have enough players to survive? I have, and I have to tell you that it's been the hardest situaiton I was ever in. In fact, I saw it in two of the three G HS programs that I coached in prior to the current one I'm in. As a coach in this situaton, you can't win. Do you drop the HS team? Or keep the youth players? What would you do? Both times I asked to examine HS co-op opportunities - but that needs to be done prior to the season, so sometimes you're stuck for at least the current year. One of these programs did end up in a co-op a year later. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p100.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUserP ... ckeyfan</A> at: 10/26/05 9:09 pm

Whatwillwork · Post by **Whatwillwork** » Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:56 pm

I think it's great that you are able to help them, but, wouldn't it benefit the program more to give some of that ice to your U-10's and U-12's in your community? Have them skate with those kids on top of the time you have them to help get them up to speed.

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 8:04 am

We did an evaluation, and our youth girls skate nearly every day, so I'm not sold that either way is a poor choice to address the issue. Also, in sending older skaters down with little experieince to skate with very young girls, the fear would be that the potential size disparity coupled with the lack of skills could result in some injuries of younger players. Like sending 15 year olds to skate with mini-mites - just doesn't sound good to me for this reason.

Whatwillwork · Post by **Whatwillwork** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 10:01 am

You guys have enough ice that your U-10's and U-12's skate every day?! Want to sell some?! <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif ALT=":D">

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 11:04 am

We are fortunate in this respect. That's for certain. Right now, my days are pretty long as I'm usually skating 3-6 with HS, 6-9 with youth, etc. For this reason I can't wait for games to start...

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 6:39 pm

to the top ttt

hattrick91 · Post by **hattrick91** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 8:57 pm

Talented middle-schoolers are often forced to play at JV and V because of politics- if they cannot get a fair shake in their organization to develop because bureaucracy gets in the way, more power to them if they can sidestep the politics and go to the level they need to to develop their playing skills- it's the same idea as taking ownership for your own career development. Don't expect someone to do this for you- they might as well learn to be assertive early in their lives.

wildhockeyfan · Post by **wildhockeyfan** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 5:26 pm

I think that MN Hockey has in its by-laws that it must provide a place for every youth player to play if the player desires to play youth hockey. It may not be in the player's home area. And with most girl hockey players, playing with their friends in their home area is of paramount importance.

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 11:51 pm

So my "new" players skated their first contest on Monday. They lost 2-0, but each of them was so pumped about the experience and I couldn't have been more proud of them. Reminded me of why I coach and what this is really all about. There are 6 total "new" players on my JV, 4 9ths, 1 11th, and a 12th. we also have a gal that's a first year goalie that had been a skater a few years back. She played the entire scrimmage and did very well. We've also been blessed in that some former youth and HS coaches have volunteered their time to help us work with these kids, so they essentially get one-on-one training 1-1.5 hrs per day. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p100.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUserP ... ckeyfan</A> at: 11/8/05 11:55 pm

ghshockeyfan · Post by **ghshockeyfan** » Sun Dec 04, 2005 10:33 am

Just an update - my new players are coming along well. One logged substantial minutes in our V game vs. Hopkins (4-2 L EN) and this was a kid that had never played organized hockey before a month ago. She has amazing potential - too bad she's a senior. She scored her first JV goal vs. the Icebreakers last night - GWG. Another gal from this group, junior, scored her first "goal" in a scrimmage vs. Kennedy's V last week. 3 others are coming long nicely, but it will take time, they are all freshmen and at least have some years to play. Another freshmen was a figure skater, and she has adapted well, plays D for our JV. My first year G that's a sr. has done outstanding, and that's a tribute to her dedication and also my goaltending coach. I still believe that these sorts of situations are as much of what coaching is about as anything... Edited by: <A HREF=http://p100.ezboard.com/bmnhs.showUserP ... ckeyfan</A> at: 12/4/05 10:34 am

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1st year players at the HS level...

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