Hill-Murray Update

[Nostalgic Nerd]

I might be alone here, but I think this should count as another state quarterfinal loss for White Bear Lake....

Winner.

[jdh]

Can someone explain to me why the League didn’t have a plan in place where the Section Runnersup would replace any Section winner who couldn’t participate due to COVID issues? It’s not like this COVID thing sprung up overnight.

Well, the Section runner up in this instance has a COVID positive player. And the Centennial girls' opponent in the Section final had close contact with an opponent (from Centennial). So I'm not sure how the runner up could take part.

If it wasnt the Runnerup that had the COVID positive player, they should be eligible.
,

[InYourFace09]

Can someone explain to me why the League didn’t have a plan in place where the Section Runnersup would replace any Section winner who couldn’t participate due to COVID issues? It’s not like this COVID thing sprung up overnight.

Well, the Section runner up in this instance has a COVID positive player. And the Centennial girls' opponent in the Section final had close contact with an opponent (from Centennial). So I'm not sure how the runner up could take part.

If it wasnt the Runnerup that had the COVID positive player, they should be eligible.
,

Then the actual team should be able to play in your scenario since nobody tested positive on the current team

[SEC Scotty]

I feel bad for all kids in activities that have been affected by Civi 19.

I feel much worse for my friend Dan Culhane’s family.
Dan passed away from Covid about a month ago.

Dan was an exceptional MSHSL and USA hockey referee who worked games in Minnesota for decades. Dan was also a local radio personality, husband, father and grandfather.

He was a recent cancer survivor who possibly contracted the virus in Carver county working games back in January.

You can google him to learn more about his story.

Hopefully the vaccines will greatly reduce stories like Dan’s from happening in the future.

RIP Dan

[MedleyWR]

I sympathize with Hill Murray and other sports teams that are not allowed to compete. They earned this opportunity, only to have it snatched away through bureaucratic overreach, in my opinion. According to the CDC, in the under age 18 demographic, there have been 238 deaths "involving" Covid in 2020-2021 (through 3/24/21). This is from a population of approximately 40 million. The CDC estimates that the survival rate for under age 20 is 99.997%. Most know that it is the elderly and those with comorbidities (other existing health problems) that are most at risk. Yet, for this, we have seen diktats closing businesses, schools, churches - thus placing most of us in some form of quarantine. Other societal and health issues have exploded due to this, including addiction/overdose, mental health crises and domestic abuse. The MSHSL and MDH actions are consistent with the widely accepted governmental response to Covid. My question is "Should this response be widely accepted, or accepted at all?" Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease.

[kpryan88]

Well, the Section runner up in this instance has a COVID positive player. And the Centennial girls' opponent in the Section final had close contact with an opponent (from Centennial). So I'm not sure how the runner up could take part.

If it wasnt the Runnerup that had the COVID positive player, they should be eligible.
,

Then the actual team should be able to play in your scenario since nobody tested positive on the current team

Rumor, from a credible source, every kid on Hill’s roster was tested on Monday. 0 tests came back positive. Why can’t this be enough to let them play? These “guidelines” are a joke.

[Sparlimb]

I think Hill and Hermantown should schedule an exhibition game on Saturday. Would be a fun one...

[jg2112]

I sympathize with Hill Murray and other sports teams that are not allowed to compete. They earned this opportunity, only to have it snatched away through bureaucratic overreach, in my opinion. According to the CDC, in the under age 18 demographic, there have been 238 deaths "involving" Covid in 2020-2021 (through 3/24/21). This is from a population of approximately 40 million. The CDC estimates that the survival rate for under age 20 is 99.997%. Most know that it is the elderly and those with comorbidities (other existing health problems) that are most at risk. Yet, for this, we have seen diktats closing businesses, schools, churches - thus placing most of us in some form of quarantine. Other societal and health issues have exploded due to this, including addiction/overdose, mental health crises and domestic abuse. The MSHSL and MDH actions are consistent with the widely accepted governmental response to Covid. My question is "Should this response be widely accepted, or accepted at all?" Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease.

Duly noted.

Rules are rules. Health is more important than youth sporting events.

[slacsap]

Pretty much everyone would have preferred that the game be decided by the players on the ice, but this did not happen and it is valid to ask why not. Hill, obviously, was willing to play the game on Thursday. Wayzata, by all accounts, was willing to play on Thursday. The other coaches in the tournament have said publicly that they are open to whatever accommodations would need to be made. The game could easily been played at the X Thursday morning before the girls' games without any other adjustments needed. So why wasn't the game moved to Thursday? Because MSHSL said "No". They may have had perfectly valid reasons for doing so, but we will never know because they don't explain the rationale for most of their decisions. Given the track record and history of MSHSL decision making, it is hard to give them the benefit of the doubt. I have worked with the MSHSL and found many of the people in leadership positions there to be among the most arrogant, inflexible and self-important people I have ever encountered. What I know of this case and, admittedly, much of what I know is second hand, only reinforced the opinion.

[WBLPuck99]

Let me state first as a hockey fan, I feel horrible for the HM players and coaches. I wish there was a way to make this game happen. It sounds like there maybe was, I don't know. I don't work for the MSHSL so I can't really comment. It sounds like the cancellation of today's game is possibly an MDH call and whether the game could or could not be rescheduled per the MSHSL is not my call, and I'm glad it's not.

That being said, I wonder if we would be as up in arms if this were regular season and not the state tournament? I don't think you can make special rules for the state tournament. We saw teams not able to compete in sections because of similar issues so I don't really see a way around it.

The idea that WBL would intentionally sabotage the chance for HM to play in the state tournament is just sickening that people think it would be intentional. That would somehow indicate that the players, coaches, and AD were all complicit in this plot. Silly. I know players from last years team that were super happy for Charlie Strobel because they respected him so much. They wanted to make it to state last year, but were happy for several people on Hill that won because they play hockey with those guys in the off season, or even hang out with each other outside of school. That's usually part of what makes a rivalry, competing against friends.

I think there is some irony that Hill is the school involved. If people recall, earlier this year, players from Hill Murray's girls hockey team effectively shut down other schools programs for weeks by coming to school and playing hockey when they were, as the articles state, showing symptoms of COVID. That's where I think some of the arguments fall apart, especially the lawsuit. Should those other schools be allowed to accuse Hill Murray of irreparable harm because they (players) knowingly exposed other teams to the virus?

I think at the day we all wanted the state tournaments to go off without a hitch, but I think we are being naive if we thought it wasn't going to happen in at least one, more likely several teams in some way shape or form.

[slacsap]

Let me state first as a hockey fan, I feel horrible for the HM players and coaches. I wish there was a way to make this game happen. It sounds like there maybe was, I don't know. I don't work for the MSHSL so I can't really comment. It sounds like the cancellation of today's game is possibly an MDH call and whether the game could or could not be rescheduled per the MSHSL is not my call, and I'm glad it's not.

That being said, I wonder if we would be as up in arms if this were regular season and not the state tournament? I don't think you can make special rules for the state tournament. We saw teams not able to compete in sections because of similar issues so I don't really see a way around it.

The idea that WBL would intentionally sabotage the chance for HM to play in the state tournament is just sickening that people think it would be intentional. That would somehow indicate that the players, coaches, and AD were all complicit in this plot. Silly. I know players from last years team that were super happy for Charlie Strobel because they respected him so much. They wanted to make it to state last year, but were happy for several people on Hill that won because they play hockey with those guys in the off season, or even hang out with each other outside of school. That's usually part of what makes a rivalry, competing against friends.

I think there is some irony that Hill is the school involved. If people recall, earlier this year, players from Hill Murray's girls hockey team effectively shut down other schools programs for weeks by coming to school and playing hockey when they were, as the articles state, showing symptoms of COVID. That's where I think some of the arguments fall apart, especially the lawsuit. Should those other schools be allowed to accuse Hill Murray of irreparable harm because they (players) knowingly exposed other teams to the virus?

I think at the day we all wanted the state tournaments to go off without a hitch, but I think we are being naive if we thought it wasn't going to happen in at least one, more likely several teams in some way shape or form.

I agree that anyone who thinks White Bear intentionally concocted a player with a positive test, whether false or not, is way out of line. In addition, the girls' players at Hill-Murray who went to school and played in games behaved in an incredibly stupid and irresponsible manner. One important correction to your post however. MDH does not cancel games. They only make recommendations. The final decision on whether the game would be played was the MSHSL's, despite their ridiculous statement making it sound as though the decision of whether or not to play was entirely up to Hill-Murray.

[jdh]

If it wasnt the Runnerup that had the COVID positive player, they should be eligible.
,

Then the actual team should be able to play in your scenario since nobody tested positive on the current team

Rumor, from a credible source, every kid on Hill’s roster was tested on Monday. 0 tests came back positive. Why can’t this be enough to let them play? These “guidelines” are a joke.
[/
I totally agree. There are so many inconsistencies with this COVID stuff. The High School dropped the ball big-time with this. Total idiots.

[BobSaget]

If it wasnt the Runnerup that had the COVID positive player, they should be eligible.
,

Then the actual team should be able to play in your scenario since nobody tested positive on the current team

Rumor, from a credible source, every kid on Hill’s roster was tested on Monday. 0 tests came back positive. Why can’t this be enough to let them play? These “guidelines” are a joke.

I was under the impression that you had moved on to baseball.

[O-townClown]

I think Hill and Hermantown should schedule an exhibition game on Saturday. Would be a fun one...

Love this idea!

[Wise Old Man]

I sympathize with Hill Murray and other sports teams that are not allowed to compete. They earned this opportunity, only to have it snatched away through bureaucratic overreach, in my opinion. According to the CDC, in the under age 18 demographic, there have been 238 deaths "involving" Covid in 2020-2021 (through 3/24/21). This is from a population of approximately 40 million. The CDC estimates that the survival rate for under age 20 is 99.997%. Most know that it is the elderly and those with comorbidities (other existing health problems) that are most at risk. Yet, for this, we have seen diktats closing businesses, schools, churches - thus placing most of us in some form of quarantine. Other societal and health issues have exploded due to this, including addiction/overdose, mental health crises and domestic abuse. The MSHSL and MDH actions are consistent with the widely accepted governmental response to Covid. My question is "Should this response be widely accepted, or accepted at all?" Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease.

Medley...Specific to your point that “the cure can’t be worse than the disease”...I don’t think you’ve been present the last 12 months as the debate between those who believe in stronger restrictions being needed and those who question whether the “cure might be worse than the disease”, has occurred on these forums. If so, consider yourself lucky. The debate/discussion reached a point where the moderators basically banned any further discussion as it just wasn’t producing any movement in either side’s direction.

Regardless, even those of us who support the “quarantines”/“lockdowns”/“restrictions”, understand and agree that those who generally end up suffering from severe illness or even death from Covid are those 65 and older. Vastly outnumbering those in the 12-18 yr old range. Nobody is arguing that point, specifically to those who end up with actual symptoms. Of course, that doesn’t account for the possible, long-term effects, along with even some short-term ones that even high level athletes have likely gotten from their Covid infections such as myocarditis. Both Alex Stalock and Rossi, the Wild’s first round pick last year, came down with myocarditis that was severe enough to require long layoffs to ensure proper recovery. And they have access to the absolute best medical care possible. The average youth, high school, or even college player does not.

Then, there is the likelihood of in game transmission between players from one team to another — which likely happened during the Wild’s outbreak — or, in the case of Dan Culhane, player to official. The point is, it’s not just about the risk of severe symptomatic illness to the players. Now, if you don’t feel the science is accurate in those situations, I’d like to hear your proof of that. Meaning, the MDH recommendations/restrictions are what they are.

To those unhappy with the MSHSL, they are simply following those recommendations. I realize some here don’t believe the MSHSL has consistently applied those recommendations. I disagree. I think it’s been very consistent. Which is why they aren’t willing to now make exception for Hill, despite Wayzata’s willingness to play tomorrow. If they allow it to happen and set a precedent, it means they have to allow the same opportunity moving forward and, might even open themselves up for litigation since they didn’t allow it previously.

We also need to keep in mind that the MSHSL only has so much staffing and, although there are likely numerous ice sheets available, you would need to try and coordinate all of the other game management aspects. Including ticket takers, ushers, a Covid coordinator, scorekeepers, penalty box attendants...just to name a few. Not to mention insuring the building is properly sanitized to their specifications. And no, they can’t just get parent volunteers. There is a likely requirement those people would need to be cleared through some type of background check/SafeSport-like process. It’s great Wayzata was willing to do what was needed to move the game. Unfortunately, it’s not nearly as simple to do as some believe.

Finally, the MSHL does need to own their lack of/and or poor communication regarding this situation. They’ve never been very good in this area and, they are proving it to be a weakness once again. They should want to own the narrative on this. If so, you should be aggressively communicating your side of the situation. They obviously aren’t doing that.

[SEC Scotty]

Contact Jan Malcolm- Minnesota Department of Health
651-201-5180.

[slacsap]

Wise Old Man:
I agree with much of what you say in your most recent post. A couple of points I would offer, however.
1) I really don't see precedent being an issue here. Hopefully, we will not see another pandemic which will create an environment like we have had for the past year, so precedent will not exist.

2) There was no need to find another ice surface, arena staff, etc for Wayzata and Hill to play on Thursday. The game could have been played at the X at 9:00 AM before the start of the girls' semis.

You didn't actually say this, but the sentiment seems present given your last paragraph. Much of the controversy in this case, and several others over the years, could have beena voided if teh MSHSL would have done a better and more timely job of providing an explanation for their decisions. Maybe they'll learn from this incident.

[East Side Pioneer Guy]

I largely agree wirh wise old man.

As far as playing at the X on Thursday at 9am, that wouldn't work. For some reason, mshsl keeps up the fallacy that the second game of the session starts 2 hours after the first, when it is more like 2:45, without overtime.

A 9:07 puck drop means the next two start times get bumped back. And the evening games need to be considered, too. I'd start a theoretical HM game by 8, if not earlier. If there is a multiple overtime game for one of the first 4 games, that game may need to be completed Friday morning, before the 11am game. I've seen plenty of 3 ot games over the years.

[TheNightman]

Why is this still being discussed? It's over and there are actual games happening. Move on with your lives.

[East Side Pioneer Guy]

Why is this still being discussed? It's over and there are actual games happening. Move on with your lives.

There are many facets to this. If you are no longer interested, don't bother to read this thread.

[raidergrad72]

Why is this still being discussed? It's over and there are actual games happening. Move on with your lives.

There are many facets to this. If you are no longer interested, don't bother to read this thread.

[north_bear]

Why is this still being discussed? It's over and there are actual games happening. Move on with your lives.

Somebody has to beat the horse!

[Slap Shot]

This whole episode has made me like HM a lot more - the MSHSL are a bunch of bums for trying to keep them out.

Yes, the MSHSL is specifically trying to keep one of its biggest brands, who also happen to be the defending champs, out of its crown jewel event. (Sarcasm, in case it wasn’t obvious)

They followed MDH guidelines - this isn't specifically about HM outside of the fact they're the unfortunate party.

This whole episode has made me like HM a lot more - the MSHSL are a bunch of bums for trying to keep them out.

I hope the High School League is paying you well to carry water for them.

I am not fan of them in the least.

[Getitright]

I mentioned this earlier but the main blame I have with the mshl is this:

Knowing what the mdh guidelines are, they should have revised all section schedules so they were completed in excess of 7 days prior to each class’ first tournament game. This would have reduced the risk of a COVID issue by 50%. This would totally remove any cross exposure issue. For not doing this they failed the kids. This would have eliminated any finger pointing. Both Hermantown and hill would then have been able to participate in the tourney as their non participation resulted from outside of their respective teams.

[east hockey]

Why is this still being discussed? It's over and there are actual games happening. Move on with your lives.

Somebody has to beat the horse!

True, but at some point Karl or I will have to rebury it in an undisclosed location

Lee